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Census Lookups General Lookups => Census Lookup and Resource Requests => Census and Resource Discussion => Completed Census Requests => Topic started by: troymantis on Wednesday 24 June 09 22:00 BST (UK)
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Hello, I would like some help with a query that I have in relation the 1911 census.
My GG Grandfather was retired by the time of the census and had just starting receiving a pension. He had worked as a Mariner in Merchant Service.
Am I to understand Merchant Service to be the Merchant Navy, or the import and export of goods via the sea? I have recently found a website called CLIP (Crew Lists Index Project) at http://www.crewlist.org.uk/
I inputted my GG Grandfather's information and drew a blank. There does not seem to be anyone of his name in the database. On the 1911 census in column 10 (Personal Occupation) it reads, Mariner, Retired. The enumerator had entered in green ink, a code of 350 (Retired from Business - not Army or Navy).
In column 11 (Industry or Service with which worker is connected) it reads Old Age Pension, with a code of 541 (Merchant Service; Seamen - Navigating Department).
My GG Grandfather was born in Liverpool, but registered in Cockermouth for his birth certificate. He can be found on both the 1841/51 census returns in Workington, Cumberland. He came back to Liverpool in 1872 and was married in Toxteth Park.
He then disappears until 1901 and 1911 respectively. In the years that he was 'lost' did he serve in the Merchant Navy, or was he transporting goods across the sea? It looks to me like he gets a pension from the Navy, but I may have misinterpreted the census.
Can anyone help?
troymantis
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Hi Troy
The Classification of Occupations is pretty tough going - it is based on Occupation and Industry and whether employed or self employed, etc. and has been developed with various minor an major changes since the censuses of the 19th century. The category 'Economically Active' is/was also used so that if your ancestor was retired he was classified as Economically Inactive and not classifed otherwise by the census coders.See:
http://surveynet.ac.uk/sqb/qb/resources/classification/socintro.htm
It's all pretty complicated and serious stuff and many books and academic papers have been written on the topic ::) ::) ::)
Gadget
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Way too complicated!
If I go to the Liverpool Records Office, will they be able to tell me who paid his pension? I may be trying to simplify things too much here, but my train of thought, was that if I found out which industry he retired from, I may get information as to which vessel he travelled on, and could then locate him in the missing census returns.
I bet that's too simple isn't it? :D
troymantis
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I've not done any work on this since the 1991 census, but it looks to me that it was a Merchant Navy pension. However, the State Pension was introduced in 1909 for those over 70.
Gadget
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Thank you, great that you're helping me :) Can I ask a question? If he was in the Merchant Navy, why can I not find him in the Crew Lists?
troymantis ;D
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Sorry Troy - I wouldn't know the answer to that for definite.
The coders would have taken what he said in the 1911 as the truth about his job. There would be no checks and if he said he was a Marine - retired (merchant sevice, etc), he would have been coded as that.
Gadget
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Thank you,
I'm off to bang my head against a wall ;D ;D ;D ;D
troymantis
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Basically, you have to accept that the codes were primarily there to analyse the economic and social structure of the population (for govenment purposes) at a given point in time (in this case 1911). The civil servant coders took what your ancestor said and coded this into particular categories as best they could from the information he gave.
As far as Family History is concerned, what he said is more relevant than the codes so I'd not worry about them if I were you.
Gadget
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This is where you've lost me.
I am not the most academic person in the world, in fact, this very morning I have sat 2 exams (City and Guilds Level 2) in Maths and English, at my local DISC, the results of which will determine whether I can go on to a main site college and gain a place on an Access course.
I have very little education, and no knowledge of social history, but I am trying to improve my situation. It was perhaps, a little naive of me to attempt to piece together my family history, when I am sometimes unable to grasp the subject.
I thought that the codes were relevant in determining where he had spent his working life. Like I have said previously, I have attempted to find him on online crew lists at various sites, NA, FindMyPast, CLIP and have returned no results.
This is why I got confused with 'merchant' service, Navy or transport of goods on the sea. I think I might well leave this particular ancestor alone, it is I fear, much too difficult to fathom.
Thank you in your endeavours to help me ;D ;D ;D ;D
merseyclyder
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The classification "not in Navy or Army" would refer to the Royal Navy and not include the merchant navy. It is not very likely that someone in the marchant navy in those days received a pension, although I could be proved wrong on that one.
In September 1909 the old age pension of between 1s and 5s (5p and 25p) was brought in for anyone earning less than 12s (60p) a week and over the age of 70. It would seem that in 1911 your GG grandfather would be old enough to be entitled to it.
David
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Hi there,
If it's any consolaton to you - none of my merchant mariners are on that website. Everytime I come across any names on an online database they are usually officers although a couple of 1841 and 1851 census had a number of 17 year old apprentice mariners on board a ship in port.
I know my mariners were engineers but it seems yours worked on deck in the Navigation Department and I've found a couple of websites which give a sort of job description:-
http://www.maritimeskills.org/careers/merchant_navy/mn_role.htm
http://www.prospects.ac.uk/p/types_of_job/merchant_navy_officer_job_description.jsp
Good hunting
Regards,
Rena
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The classification "not in Navy or Army" would refer to the Royal Navy and not include the merchant navy. It is not very likely that someone in the marchant navy in those days received a pension, although I could be proved wrong on that one.
Help! So let me try to understand this, he was not in the Royal Navy, so may have been in the Merchant Navy. However, a person in the Merchant Navy did not qualify for a pension.
Thank you for trying to help me, but I'm more confused than ever ;D ;D ;D ;D
merseyclyder
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Rena,
Thank you for the websites, I will take a look at them when my headache has gone ;D ;D ;D ;D
merseyclyder
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Hi again,
I don't see why your ancestor couldn't have been in both navies. He might have served in the Royal Navy until his mid 40's (say) and then served as an officer either on a short haul or long haul merchant ship. There is another option (there always is) he might have started his career in the merchant navy and was seconded into the royal navy during any of the wars we had during the 1800's. It looks like you need a family story to give you a clue; a photo of a man in a uniform would come in handy wouldn't it.
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this is too late for your man -
Explanation of Merchant Navy Pension:
The Merchant Navy Officers Pension Fund ("MNOPF") started on 1 January 1938 and for over 60 years has provided generous benefits designed to meet the needs of ship's officers within the many changes in UK pensions law and practice.
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Royal Navy Pensions:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=46&j=1
Best of Luck,
Rena
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Hi again
I think Rena's alternatives are good leads :)
I noticed that it said f 541 (Merchant Service; Seamen - Navigating Department).
Could it be that he was involved in piloting ships into harbours? Not sure what class they would have been in then. Also, of course, he could have had a State Pension, as I said earlier.
Gadget
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Thanks Rena and Gadget,
All the help is much appreciated. ;D
troymantis
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If your ancestor wasn't regularly employed by one shipowner or shipping line, the he would be most unlikely to be on a crew list.
Many mariners were in the "Pool". ie just went along to the docks and waited for a job to turn up.This practise went on well into the 1950's , as it did with Dock workers.
Could also be coastal shipping or "Deep Sea"
Spring
One small point, if he had been a deck hand, (as opposed to working in the engine room or galley) he would most likely have put "Deck"
To put Navigation , indicates that he could well be one of the crew(not an officer) who would be the chap behind the steering wheel, and who's duties would have been soley on and around the Brldge and Chart Room.
Spring
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Springbok,
You posted after I had thanked Rena and Gadget, so thank you too ;D
troymantis