RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Staffordshire => Topic started by: cathyaus on Wednesday 24 June 09 12:04 BST (UK)
-
Hi
I am hoping that someone can help me with locating my husband's grandmother's birth - so that we can order the birth certificate.
Mary Evelyn ASTBURY - according to the 1900 United States Census, her month & year of birth is listed as May 1893.
Other background information that I have
Parents -
(Edward) Thomas Astbury - born Longton Staffordshire
Mary Jane Astbury (nee Harrison) - born Cheadle Staffordshire.
Other children
(George) William Astbury (1900 US Census has birth as March 1888. Name on Census -recorded as "Willie" & all other research thereafter refers to him as William). I have located a George William Astbury on Free BMD as being registered June 1888 Stoke Upon Trent. 1891 UK Census records George as a 3 yr old born Longton, Staffordshire. Census area is Longton.
The family travel to New York in 1894 (Evelyn would have been about 14 mths old) & stay in Syracuse, New York until about 1909.
The 1911 UK Census records Mary Evelyn Astbury as being an 18 yr old - birthplace listed as "America" & "British Subject by Parentage"
I have searched & cannot located a reference number to order a birth certificate.
The only birth that I have located was for a Mary Evelyn Astbury born June Qtr 1893 in Chester (8a 413). When I ordered this certificate from the GRO they refunded part of my money & stated that "parents were not as listed". I emailed to try & get information as to who the parents were but got no reply.
Has anyone got any ideas on how I can get a reference number in order to purchase the birth certificate. I have also checked Staffordshire BMD - but no luck.
I am in Australia - so cannot go in person & check out anything.
Thanks
Cathy
-
The thing is if she is listed as born in the US there will be no birth certificate for her over here. Yes she will be a British subject because of Parentage so I would start looking for a cert in the US which are not the cheapest and can be difficult to locate and obtain
Rob
-
Hi Cathy
The only other Mary Astbury born in 1893 as far as I can see is Mary Astbury Sep quarter 1893 Northwich 8a 256. I think Nantwich is also in Cheshire, so doesn't fit with what you have.
As Rob says you have two differing bits of information - if they didn't go to America until 1894 she was born in England, but the 1911 UK census seems to be saying she was born in America of British parents. Have you found them on a passenger list, that would at least show if she was with them and therefore born in England?
Jan
-
Hi
On the New York passenger list it's just Thomas & Mary Astbury with their son Willie age 5 no sign of Mary Evelyn
Claire
-
Hi
On the New York passenger list it's just Thomas & Mary Astbury with their son Willie age 5 no sign of Mary Evelyn
Claire
The same is true of the outbound passenger list from Southampton (SS Paris, dep 7 July 1894).
Anna
-
Hi again
Looks as if she was born in America then! Perhaps it should say birth May 1895.
Good luck in your search
Jan
-
Hi All
Thanks for your quick replies.
The 1900 US Census states born March 1893 Place of birth England (forgot to add that bit - sorry)> It also says year of immigration & listed next to the mother, older brother & Evelyn it says 1894> The father has 1892 as year of immigration as he went over to the US in 1892 & then back again in 1894. There is another brother listed on the US census but it states he was born in the US - which makes me believe that Evelyn was definately born in England - otherwise they would have listed her like the younger brother.
Assuming ( & I am fairly confident) Evelyn was born in England - then would she have been listed as a passenger on the 1894 trip to New York? She would have been 14 mths old & I assume - not require a bed - so wouldn't be listed as a passenger ???
The other dilema that I have been thinking about - is Evelyn arrived in America as a 14 mth old - she either thought she was born in America or else on the 1911 census - the head of the house is her employer - Publican of the Smithfield Hotel. Evelyn after spending 15 odd years in America - would have come back to England with an American accent - so maybe the Head of the house didn't ask her where she was born ??? Who knows - just throwing some ideas out there.
-
Hi
I'd take a guess that what you said in the last paragraph could be right - she never queried where she was born and just assumed America. However that still doesn't explain why we can't find her birth registered in England, unless she was registered under a different name from Mary Evelyn.
It could be that she wasn't listed a passenger, I dont know how strict they were about it then.
Looking at the dates you give for her father going to America - I just hope he didn't go early in 1892 ( Mary being born March 1893) otherwise Mrs Astbury migh have had some explaining to do!!!
Good luck
Jan
-
Assuming ( & I am fairly confident) Evelyn was born in England - then would she have been listed as a passenger on the 1894 trip to New York? She would have been 14 mths old & I assume - not require a bed - so wouldn't be listed as a passenger ???
Her age would not be a reason for her not to be listed. All passengers were requierd to be listed. On the outbound passenger list there are groups of columns for adults & children over 12 years, then children 1-12 years, then "infants" - meaning presumably babies under one year. The passenger list shows individuals in each of these categories, but the only child listed for the Astburys is 5-yr-old Willie.
Very odd indeed!
Anna
-
The only birth that I have located was for a Mary Evelyn Astbury born June Qtr 1893 in Chester (8a 413). When I ordered this certificate from the GRO they refunded part of my money & stated that "parents were not as listed".
Have you found this lass in the 1901 census to totally eliminate her ? The name is quite unusual to have 2 born the same time ?
Might be worth the £7 piece of mind to get the Cert w/o qualification of parents names (could be a trivial difference thats stopped it being issued)
-
Looking at the dates you give for her father going to America - I just hope he didn't go early in 1892 ( Mary being born March 1893) otherwise Mrs Astbury migh have had some explaining to do!!!
:o I was thinking that ages ago when I first started tracking the trips back & forth to the US. ;D
The 1892 trip - date of arrival was March 24, 1892 to New York. Maybe he got back to England within 3 months !
Does anyone know how long it took to get from England to New York back in the 1890's ??
Cathy
-
Does anyone know how long it took to get from England to New York back in the 1890's ??
Cathy
The Astburys' trip in 1894 took a week (dep Southampton 7 July, arr New York 14 July).
Anna :)
-
The only birth that I have located was for a Mary Evelyn Astbury born June Qtr 1893 in Chester (8a 413). When I ordered this certificate from the GRO they refunded part of my money & stated that "parents were not as listed".
Have you found this lass in the 1901 census to totally eliminate her ? The name is quite unusual to have 2 born the same time ?
Might be worth the £7 piece of mind to get the Cert w/o qualification of parents names (could be a trivial difference thats stopped it being issued)
I thinkt hat I might have to do that - reorder the certificate but this time don't list any parents.
I will check the 1901 census in the morning - it's 11pm here in Sydney.
Thanks to all those that have replied - will check back in the morning
Goodnight all
Cathy
-
ah, erm - how do you know her middle name was Evelyn ?
Births Jun 1893
Astbury Mary Chester 8a 413
-
Does anyone know how long it took to get from England to New York back in the 1890's ??
Cathy
The Astburys' trip in 1894 took a week (dep Southampton 7 July, arr New York 14 July).
Anna :)
Hi Anna
Where did you find that info ???
-
There is a Mary Astbury born abt 1892 father George, mother Ann, living in Delamere Cheshire in the 1901 census.
Looks as if Mrs Astbury was in the clear then if it only took a week to get back ;)
Goodnight - it's only 2 pm here!!
Jan
-
Hi Anna
Where did you find that info ???
I compared the outbound passenger list which I have already referred to (available from the pay site www.findmypast.com) with the ship's passenger manifest as presented to the US authorities on arrival, available inter alia on the free site www.ellisisland.org.
Anna
-
ah, erm - how do you know her middle name was Evelyn ?
Births Jun 1893
Astbury Mary Chester 8a 413
I didn't know that with the Chester birth - was clutching at straws & that was the only Mary Astbury I could find that matched the month & year. I thought that maybe they had added the Evelyn later.
Her marriage certificate & death certificate have Mary Evelyn Astbury.
-
Hi Anna
Where did you find that info ???
I compared the outbound passenger list which I have already referred to (available from the pay site www.findmypast.com) with the ship's passenger manifest as presented to the US authorities on arrival, available inter alia on the free site www.ellisisland.org.
Anna
Thanks Anna
I was only going by the arrival dates from Ellis Island - didn't know that there were Outbound lists from England.
-
All the work put in by the people on here is admirable however the evidence was there in front of everyone's eyes. Born in America but as British nationalisation due to parents. BORN IN AMERICA being the operative phrase
Gen
-
at one stage, this was in front of everybodies eyes too .....
The 1900 US Census states born March 1893 Place of birth England (forgot to add that bit - sorry)> It also says year of immigration & listed next to the mother, older brother & Evelyn it says 1894> The father has 1892 as year of immigration as he went over to the US in 1892 & then back again in 1894. There is another brother listed on the US census but it states he was born in the US - which makes me believe that Evelyn was definately born in England - otherwise they would have listed her like the younger brother.
-
Hi Gen
The "Born in America" was on the 1911 census that may have been filled in by the head of the household - the publican / Employer of Evelyn.
The 1900 US Census was filled in by Eveleyn's parents which state she was "Born in England". I think that I would take notice of a form filled in by the parents rather than an employer.
Cathy
-
There are a lot of may's in that. The fact is no birth can be found for her in the UK and therefore you go with the obvious. Also census in the US at that time were filled in by the person coming around to the door and if the enumerator as just said where you from to the householder then he could have copied down the same info for all the family.
You are making assumptions that Evelyn's family filled the 1900 in as well what evidence is there to support that? As anyone checked the later census ( I am assuming the later ones have been released.)
Ok the 1920 is on Ancestry (I dont have sub unfortunately) as is the 1930 and the 1920 census as a Mary E ASTBURY born circa 1895 living in Montgomery OH
I would still consider US as the birth. It seems looking at the rules that the enumerator had to follow that if he could not ascertain from the householder the information then he had to answer what he believed to be true. Ill quote "92. General.—Endeavor to obtain a positive answer to each inquiry according to the instructions herein given, but if an answer to any question can not be obtained from the persons in the family or t he neighborhood, as the law requires, enter, in all cases where possible, the answer you believe to be true. In no case should "Unknown" or "Un" be entered, unless every effort to obtain the desired information has been made. "
Rob
-
and of course, she wasnt on the passenger list apparently ...
but I dont agree with your stmt 'therefore you go with the obvious ...' in every context.
Conan Doyle had it right ..... when you've eliminated the Impossible, no matter how improbable the apparent answer .....
-
Ok the 1920 is on Ancestry (I dont have sub unfortunately) as is the 1930 and the 1920 census as a Mary E ASTBURY born circa 1895 living in Montgomery OH
Rob
How does the above help or prove anything ?
In 1920 Mary Evelyn is living in England - married & continues to live in England until she dies in 1958.
-
Hi Cathy
I've just had another look for her birth but can't see anything remotely likely. The only birth I can see in Staffordshire around that time is for an Ethel May Astbury reg Sept quarter 1893 6B 531. I doubt if they called her something completely different after registering it.
I think, as you said before, your best bet is to reorder the certificate and not give many details. Someone on here not long ago had the same problem and when they reordered it was the correct one. I think it was just something as simple as the father's name having a different spelling. Hope this turns out as successful for you.
Let us know, as it's always good to know the outcome.
Jan
-
Update -
I have contacted the Onondaga County Public Library in Syracuse, New York & they have looked up the Vital Records Index for a birth for Mary Evelyn Astbury from 1892 - 1900 & have found no record for the surname Astbury.
I am still no closer to finding a result.
The 1901 census shows a Mary Evelyn Astbury in Chester - so I believe that the birth certificate that I tried to order was definately the wrong one. "My" Mary Evelyn Astbury was living in New York at that time.
-
Mary Evelyn ASTBURY - according to the 1900 United States Census, her month & year of birth is listed as May 1893.
Are you sure that it's May and not March?
There is a Mary EVELINE ASBURY listed on FREEREG in March quarter 1893, registered in Burton.
-
Hi Dudley
I have just rechecked the 1900 US Census & it definately says May 1893.
-
What a pity,
it seemed a good match for place too.
Other comments:
My great-grandparents's aunt (who had lived with the family for many years) got confused on one census about which of their two eldest children was born in England (the rest all in Dublin). I have the original as well as a copy cert showing that it was my grandfather but in 1901 his older brother was listed as England and himself as Ireland.
I have come across families in my tree where even the parents seem to have got confused between birthdays of their children on the US census (many children, right birthday, wrong child or vv!)
Perhaps, if the child wa not strong, she actually travelled out with a relative, a little later than the parents, after they had time to settle. Have you checked for her on other voyages?
-
There is a Mary EVELINE ASBURY listed on FREEREG in March quarter 1893, registered in Burton.
She may well be the Mary E ASBURY who in 1901 is enumerated as an 8-yr-old daughter of Ernest & Elizabeth ASBURY in Winshill, Staffs (in Burton RD): RG13/2648/65/29
.
Anna
-
Oops typos!
Just noticed, that as you all gathered, I actually meant FREEBMD in this particular case and not FREEREG
sorry
PS Why isn't there a blush smiley?!
-
:-[
-
Hi Dudley
Perhaps, if the child wa not strong, she actually travelled out with a relative, a little later than the parents, after they had time to settle. Have you checked for her on other voyages?
I have checked the 1900 US Census & under the column - Year of immigration to the US - it has 1894 for Evelyn, her older brother Willie & her mother Mary. The younger brother was born in the US apparently.
It is still a good idea - so I will recheck the Ellis Island records again in case Evelyn came over a few months later.
Thanks
Cathy
-
There is a Mary EVELINE ASBURY listed on FREEREG in March quarter 1893, registered in Burton.
She may well be the Mary E ASBURY who in 1901 is enumerated as an 8-yr-old daughter of Ernest & Elizabeth ASBURY in Winshill, Staffs (in Burton RD): RG13/2648/65/29
.
Anna
Thanks Anna - saves me having to check that out - I am checking all avenues. My Mary Evelyn was in New York in 1901.
-
I believe that Willy was my great uncle…he was born to Edward Thomas Astbury and Mary Jane Harrison in Syracuse….my grandfather was the brother Edward Thomas (Tom) born in Syracuse …William was not talked about in the family because of his disgrace I’ve never heard of a sister but families are strange perhaps she supported William and was therefore rejected by the family. Mary Jane was a very strict Catholic and a stern mother in law and grandmother. The family moved back to England as Edward senior had potters lung (probably pulmonary fibrosis) he was told to go to the west coast of Lancashire or California…England was cheaper …he loved in a boarding house in Blackpool and Mary Jane and Edward junior lived in Manchester running a stationery shop…..
-
I note on this thread that Mary Evelyn died 1958 - who did she marry and when? There are a couple of trees on Ancestry for her but neither state who she married.
Annette
-
Mary Evelyn Astbury married Eddie SEDGWICK in 1920 at St Edward's Church, Rusholme, CHorlton, Manchester, Lancashire, England.
-
jujenkinson
Oh wow - after so many years this post has been revived & with information that I didnt know about.
Thank you for posting the information - will need to go back to the tree - haven't touched it in years to see what questions I need to ask.
thanks again for posting
Cathy
-
In 1921 she says she was born in America. As she wasn't with the family when they arrived it is possible that she was adopted there. By 1894 they had been married 8 years with just one surviving son so it wouldn't be unexpected.
I’ve never heard of a sister
She is there on the 1900 census.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6869-MR7
Debra :)
-
William was not talked about in the family because of his disgrace
In 1939 George is living in Heald Place, Manchester with his brother Edward and mother Mary, together with Edward's wife and possibly a child. Mary Evelyn might be Evelyn M living in Princess Street not too far away.
Debra :)
-
Yes that is her in Princess Street. It's been years since I did any research on the family tree - so will need to investigate 1939 Register as that will give her date of birth.
-
Fact -there is no birth registered in England for Mary Evelyn Astbury 1893 or any female Astbury with mmn of Harrison.
Fact - she did not travel with Thomas, Mary and Willie in 1894 (either in departing passenger list or in the arrivals passenger list in New York).
If Thomas went initially in 1892 could she have been fathered by him to an unknown (to us) female and wife Mary agreed to raise her as their own or was she simply adopted by them sometime between 1894 and 1900. Mary's birthdate is given as 24th May 1893. Month/year consistent on records for Mary.
I don't know how US would have dealt with immigrant families with regards to the census. If mother Mary didn't arrive until 1894 they could hardly say that their daughter Mary Evelyn born May 1893 was born in America could they without awkward questions being asked?
Certainly, there is no registered birth for her in England, she didn't travel with family in 1894 and all records clearly state she was born May 1893. What the circumstances of her birth were have no idea - either she was simply adopted by them but they claimed she was their natural daughter OR possibly Thomas was indeed her father and she was conceived during his 1892 visit with a lady unknown and when they arrived in 1894 his wife agreed to raise her.
It's a real conundrum but I feel sure that Mary Evelyn was indeed born in the US as she claimed.
Annette
-
or as she would have been a baby when they travelled from England to US - Mary Evelyn Astbury may not have been listed.