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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: Bathonian on Monday 22 June 09 15:29 BST (UK)
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Does anyone have any record of the parents of Mary Lawson of Avondale who married Thomas Scott on February 1824 also in Avondale. Any information would be greatly appreciated. ??? ???
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extracted entry on igi for a mary ann lawson born 6th oct 1806 lanark glasgow,parents james lawson and mary ann armstrong,this any help,eva
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Many thanks for that prompt reply, Eva. As you know, each brick in the wall moves you on. My connection in Scotland are just getting underway so each person helps greatly. Ken :D
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My GG grandfather was the William Scott married to Agnes Meikle.I have traced William's ancestory back to Charles 11.William's parents were Thomas (born 1802) and Mary Lawson (born 1802).Thomas's parents were William Scott (b 1770 Douglas) and Mary Hay (b 1766) Greatgranddaughter of The Marquiss of Tweeddale and Lady Jane Scott.
Cheer
Graham & Jo
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Hi Graham & Jo,
Thanks for the reply, you've certainly made progress on your ancestry.
William Scott and Agness are my wife's G.G. grandparents, although I have Thomas and Mary Lawson's dob as 1806. I'd appreciate any information you might have on the ancestry.
Ken :D :D
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Hi Ken,
The info I have shows Mary Lawson dob as 1802 and death on 14 feb 1875 at Mitchland Lesmahagow.Her husband, Thomas Scott, parents were ,William Scott b 1770 and Mary Hay b 1766. of Netherhall Farm. Mary Hay's parents are William Hay of Lawfield and Spott and Elizabeth Sinclair. His grandfather is the Marquiss of Tweeddale and her grandmother is Lady jane Scott. the rest is easily traceable
through Burkes Peerage. I don't have any more info on William Scott's background which is a harder to trace.He was apparently the coachman and ran off with Mary who was disowned for marrying below her status. Hope this is helpful.
Regards Graham and jo
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Once again, thanks for the information. Every little bit helps to move the research on. It will give me something to jumpstart this part of the tree.
Ken
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Did you know Mary Lawson and her husband had 12 children, the last a daughter being born in 1846. I am a 2x gg grandson and currently live only 5 miles as the crows fly from the family farm of Netherhall at Sandilands.
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Welcome to Rootschat! Mary Lawson was my wife's ggggrandmother and was related when the son William moved down to farm in Bury, Lancashire. I have Mary's birth as 1806, but this may be 4 years later. Also I have her parents as James Lawson and Mary Armstrong, the only marriage I can find on SP was in Glasgow in 1797. Do you have any information that adds to this or even changes any of my information? I'd appreciate anything you might have found out.
Regards
Ken
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Just a point that I left out, I only had 9 children listed. The last one was Hugh, b.1840, so the names and dates would be appreciated.
Thanks again
Ken
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Hi there, Children in date order:
Mary (1824), Grace (1825), William (1827), Maggie (1830), Thomas (1832), Gavin (1834), James (1836), Annie (1837), Hugh (1839), Helen (1842), Marion (1844) and Janet (1846).
Their parents and grandparents ( Mary Hay) are all buried in a Netherhall plot at St. Bride's Churchyard at Douglas, Lanarkshire. The family stone is a bit weathered to say the least but the first to names are legible. Janet Scott who married a local farmer at Douglas is also buried at St. Bride's.
LWR.
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Many thanks for the list. In the 1841 census, there was also an Elizabeth, b.1829, also in the SP Grace was baptised as Grissell, b.6 Mar 1825. Did you have the date of death for Mary Hay? Her husband was William Scott, he was born in Douglas in 1770. I don't suppose you have any information on Mary Lawson's parents, James and Mary (nee Armstrong), the only marriage I can find took place in Glasgow in 1797?
Regards
Ken
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Reply:
Mary Hay died 4 October 1839 according to the grave stone aged 73. (Douglas)
Grace Scott married a farmer from Selkirk.
According to my family tree, Mary Lawson was born 6 February 1794 to Gavin Lawson and Margaret Semple. They were from Lesmahagow Parish and married in March 1793. With the Scotts having a son Gavin ( born 1834) there is a strong possibilty the aforementioned were the grandparents.
Again, my tree did not have an Elizabeth but after some delving I can confirm she did exist and was married to a William Russell. She died in November 1886. Ironically she died at Ponfeigh Place Farm, Ponfeigh which was the home of her youngest sister Janet (Weir) and my great, great grandmother. As a child I lived a quarter of a mile from this farm.
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Hello. I descend from Elizabeth, daughter of William Scott and Mary Hay. The Tweeddale relationship is new to me. However, my son and I left yellow roses at Canongate Church two years ago on the anniversary of their marriage. I live near DC and would be very happy for precise location of the burial place at St. Brides. A picture of the stone would be a wonderful addition to my research and intended return to Scotland. I am not familiar with your geography and am therefore wondering about the Netherhall farm. I visited Netherton Farm, Auchenheath Lanarkshire when I was 26. Somehow, I associated it with Willliam Scott and Mary Hay. Bill Carrouthers and family were farming there at the time. Their son, Douglas may be farming there now. Any pictures would be appreciated. Elizabeth married Hugh Kirkland. Would enjoy hearing from you.
Shirley
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The Scott family does get around. If you were not aware of the Tweeddale connection, then you will not be aware all descendants of Mary Hay are descended from Edward III of England. When Mary Hay married William Scott of Douglas, it cannot have been easy to be a tenanted farmer's wife when you were the grand daughter of both a Lord and a Baronet. Love must have conquered all!!!
Yes I have photographs of the Scott gravestone at Old St. Brides at Douglas. The grave is very close the family mausoleum of the Douglas family.
I notice you visited Netherton Farm. The Carruthers family no longer farm there. I see Douglas Carruthers once a month. I have never told him we are very distantly related. I have a copy of a 1970 family tree of Bess Kirkland and her husband. I knew as a child a Prof. Kirkland who lived in Lanark. I was told we were related.
Netherhall Farm at one time was on the estate of the Earl of Home and is situated near the Douglas Water and about 5 miles from my home town of the Royal burgh Of Lanark. LWR.
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The reason I did not know of the Tweeddale connection is interesting in itself. My grandmother, 9th daughter of William Kirkland and Isobel McColl, was named Mary Hay Kirkland. Their Dairy farm is located under Louden Hill in Darvel. Today it is called Underlaw. My grandmother left Scotland in the early 1900's to come to America to marry my grandfather, William Scott, who was the miller at Craigmill in Strathaven. Like her name sake, she was disowned for marrying beneath her class and none of the siblings were allowed to write to her. She died of Typhoid months after my mother was born. When Elizabeth (Bess) Kirkland Kelly died, she left some money to my mother. Somehow it found its way to my mother after many changes of addresses. My mother communicated occasionally through Isabella Carrouthers who I assume is Bill's mother. She was the last living person who had known my grandmother but died two months before I was able to get my mother to Scotland to meet her. Douglas was a wee boy at the time...1966.
Someone in Australia of my McColl family from the 1700s actually found my mother's family in Australia and it was there I learned of the Tweeddale connection.
I was departing for Scotland in two weeks and altered my itinerary to include a 15 minute look in Duns Castle. I told my son I would pay if he would make reservations, carry my bags, drive, handle the money a go where I wanted to go. I had found about 9 places where the family had lived. It was a trip that garnered me a hug when we returned home.
It was a Sinclare genealogist in Aberdeen who put it all together for me. Did you know William Hay had a previous marriage to an Elizabeth Turnbull daughter of James Turnbull, a stocking weaver in Edinburgh? His son William and Elizabeth of that marriage tried to inherit his estate. They, however, had been removed from the records and Spott and Lawfield went to Robert.
Having grown up on the Colorado range, I am more used to cowboy and Indian wars and am struggling to understand your kings and queens. I shall now have to read up on Edward III! My son also came out a DNA match to the O'Neil Kings which it is said if your name is still O'Neil, you are most likely a legitimate descendant. My x husband believed he was a king and has the name O'Neil. That is why I use my grandfather Scott's name. I can't tell you how much I loved Grandpa Scott. I wanted the name of somebody who had loved me.
My e-mail is (*) should you like to communicate directly. You have much to teach me. How are we related and how are we related to Edward III.
Is Netherhall the farm where Mary Hay and William lived? How did Elizabeth Kirkland end up living at Netherton farm? I have a picture of her, I believe, Grandpa Kirkland, my grandmother and Archibald Kirkland at his wedding.
Look so forward to hearing from you.
Shirley Scott
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The only marriage I was able to find on the SP for a William Scott and Mary Hay was on 7 Jan 1801 at Canongate, Edinburgh City. But I've been unable to find the birth or baptism of Mary to confirm her parents. So does anyone have any information on them and hence the line backwards? It would be great to see the line to the marquis of Tweeddale, and even better to see a line to Edward III. :)
Regards
Ken
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LWR
You are a treasure trove of information. I am just learning to use this site and yesterday's note timed out. I perhaps had too many questions. If you are familiar with Netherton Farm, and Elizabeth Kirkland Kelly, are you related to her? My grandmother, Mary Hay Kirkland, the youngest daughter, was also disowned for marrying William Scott, miller at Craigmill in Strathaven. Elizabeth Kirkland left some money for my mother when she died. Bella Carrouthers saw that my mother received it after many years of address changes.
A child of the Colorado prairie, I am more familiar with wars between cowboys and indians. How are we related to Edward III? William Hay's wife was Elizabeth Sinclare descendants of Sir John Sinclare and Robert Sinclare which can be traced to Viking royalty. They lived at Stevenson in Dunbar. William had a previous marriage to Elizabeth Turnbull whose father was James Turnbull, stocking weaver in Edinburgh. They had two children, William and Elizabeth. On William's death, they tried to inherit the estates of Spott and Lawfield but they had been erased from the records and the estates went to Robert, oldest son of William and Elizabeth Sinclare.
Please teach me anything!
Sincerely,
Shirley
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Mary Hay's, parents were the Hon. William Hay of Lawfield & Spott and Miss Elizabeth Sinclair of Stevenson. She was one of three sisters. I have a copy of the parish register showing Mary's birth in East Lothian. Also the parents marriage.
William Hay's father was Lord Alexander Hay of Spott , second son of 1st Marquess of Tweeddale of Gifford, East Lothian. His wife was a Buccleuch (Duke) and it is through this line back, Edward III is reached. Going further back you of course arrive at Edward I - the Hammer of the Scots!!!! Not a family member we Scots which to brag about!
The information that William Hay was married before provides a new angel. I always wondered why William married a much younger lady!!!
Yours for now
LWR
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Welcome to Rootschat! Mary Lawson was my wife's ggggrandmother and was related when the son William moved down to farm in Bury, Lancashire. I have Mary's birth as 1806, but this may be 4 years later.
Hello, My Grandfather Thomas Scott 3rd son of William Scott and Agnes Meikle. Went to the Bury, Manchester area in the mid 1880's. I believe to farm and was told to work as an Auctioneer. I have not been able to find any info on the company. I know he lived on at least 2 farms in the area. Can anyone help with information.
Thankyou Elizabeth
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Thanks LWR,
Now it's a little easier to move, knowing the connection. In fact some of the history is turning out to be very interesting. I have noticed that Mary Hay never gets a mention anywhere other than in the record of her birth. She was supposedly written off for marrying below her station, but you would have thought that mention of her would have appeared somewhere.
Ken
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Hi Elizabeth,
William Scott and Agnes moved down to Heapfold Farm, Heap Bridge, Heywood, near Bury, to farm. My wifes ancestor, was James, the next son who became a hay and straw dealer, and he had a son William who became an auctioneer, I suppose dealing in agricultural goods. He was the first connection into the Scottish ancestry, so anything that comes out of my enquiries and answers will apply to you as well, so check them out.
Ken
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Thankyou Ken. It explains something I have wondered about for a long time, why my Grandfather - Thomas Scott - and his family moved to Bury, Manchester to farm. It now opens up another side of the family I did not know anything about. Would be interested in further information about this family.
Elizabeth.
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Thanks LWR,
Now it's a little easier to move, knowing the connection. In fact some of the history is turning out to be very interesting. I have noticed that Mary Hay never gets a mention anywhere other than in the record of her birth. She was supposedly written off for marrying below her station, but you would have thought that mention of her would have appeared somewhere.
Ken
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Mary Hay did leave quite a sum of money in 1839. You should have a look at her will as recorded at National Archives in Edinburgh. You can get a copy through Scotlands People.
LWR
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How interesting that the second husband of Elizabeth Turnbull, first wife of William Hay, was a tailor. It was a tailor who witnessed the marriage of Mary Hay and William Scott at Canongate Kirk in January 1801. Certainly a stocking weaver, James Turnbull, and a tailor might have had close connections. Only one witness was at their marriage. Usually two were required. I saw Mary Hay's slippers in Glasgow in 1966. She was a very small person as the peach, satin emboridered slipper were not only beautiful but very small. I saw a shawl and a brooch which read, The faster ye flee, the faster ye die.
I have been flying over Scotland this evening via Google Earth locating Netherhall Farm of Sandilands. It appears there may be a large pit of sand on the property.
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Not a sand pit but a peat bog. Extraction has taken place there for years.
Regarding almost all the surrounding farms , they have all been farmed by successive generations of William Scott and Mary Hay. At this point none are still farmed.
For successive generations of my family, Mary Hay was always known as Lady Mary. I do not know how as she was not at least the daughter of an earl or a viscount!!
LWR
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I have been so slow in responding as I have been unable to access the internet due to a password problem.
There must be a great many relatives in that area then. As I flew about last night, I did notice smaller roads leading into windbreaks and houses. Is Netherton Farm one of the Scott farms? From the air, they are not far apart and close to Sorn where many Kirklands lived.
When you say they are not farmed, do you mean by Scotts or not farmed at all? I thought I saw a Hyslop and Sons at Netherhall Farm.
Is the peat used in distilleries? I understand one who really knows his Scotch knows where the peat comes from? You do not farm? While I am so charmed by the old stone mansion's I imagine you would be awed by climbing down into the Cliff Dwellings of Mesa Verde in Colorado.
The Homes also lived at Spott and were involved in the Priory in Coldingham. I have communicated with a keeper of the priory, Rennie Wurtherhead, who spoke of 'those awful Homes'. Is it the economist who changed his name to Hume because he was so ashamed of his family? Rennie said his name had to do with sheep hearders. So when I went to the sheep and wool fair, I went around asking where the wurtherheads were! I did just buy a hand woven woollen blanket from the MacAuslands of the Island of St. John's off the Eastern shore of Canada. Last night was oddly cold for August and it was a warmpth I have never known. They are still using some of the old equipment from 300 years ago!
I think we called her Lady Mary Hay because she was so special to those of us who lived in a much less pretentious state. While her name may have disappeared in Peerage books, my grandmother never wrote just Mary Kirkland. It was always Mary Hay Kirkland. Always. I wish I had known my grandmother.
I am a little overwhelmed at the moment with my new iPhone. I justify it by believing it will help me get about Scotland when I do not have to go by Google Earth. It is amazing! My son shall be able to get my GPS at anytime while I am there. At this point in my life, that is a favorable feature. The reverse would probably not be true if HE were on travel!
Sincerely,
Shirley
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The following genealogy was sent to me by a genealogist in Aberdeen. Remember she was addressing someone who knew nothing.
The earlier generations were called Lord Hay of Yester (from 1487). One of them was made Earl of Tweeddale by Cromwell in 1646, during the Covenanting period. He was against Charles I, but his son changed sides and was for Charles II, and therefore got the upgrade to Marquess. The younger sons of the family would have an estate bought for them and be known by its name, e.g. Hay of Drumelzier, Hay of Spott, etc. Sometimes these estates came into the family through the wife's dowry.
Your William was born 30 Dec 1699. His parents were Alexander Hay of Spott and Catherine Charters, who were married 22 April 1697. William was the 2nd son, and inherited Lawfield on the death of his unmarried brother, Robert.
His father, Alexander, was a younger brother of the 2nd Marquess of Tweeddale. Their parents were John Hay, 1st Marquess of Tweeddale (the one who was a Colonel in the Covenanting Army, but then changed sides) and Jean, daughter of the Earl of Buccleugh.
My insertion follows.
This is where the Charles II comes in. I have read that the first illegitimate son of Charles II was made Duke of Buccleugh. Jean is our link to Charles II.
His parents were John Hay 1st earl of Tweeddale and Jean, daughter of the Earl of Dunfermline.
His parents were James Hay, 7th Lord Hay of Yester (Note -not Lord Yester) and Margaret, daughter of the Earl of Lothian.
His parents were William Hay, 5th Lord Hay of Yester and Margaret Kerr. This was another one who changed his mind, starting off supporting Mary Queen of Scots, fighting for her at the Battle of Langside, but them swooping to the opposition a year or 2 later.
His parents were John Hay, 4th Lord Hay of Yester and Margaret, daughter of Lord Livingstone. He spent some time in the Tower of London as a prisoner of war.
His parents were John Hay, 3rd Lord Hay of Yester and Elisabeth, sister of the Earl of Angus.
His parents were John Hay, 2nd Lord Hay of Yester and Elizabeth Crichton. He died at the Battle of Flodden.
His parents were John Hay, 1st Lord Hay of Yester and Mariot, daughter of Lord Lindsay.
Remember, I do not know your history as well as you do and spelling may not be 100 percent correct.
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The following genealogy was sent to me by a genealogist in Aberdeen. Remember she was addressing someone who knew nothing.
The earlier generations were called Lord Hay of Yester (from 1487). One of them was made Earl of Tweeddale by Cromwell in 1646, during the Covenanting period. He was against Charles I, but his son changed sides and was for Charles II, and therefore got the upgrade to Marquess. The younger sons of the family would have an estate bought for them and be known by its name, e.g. Hay of Drumelzier, Hay of Spott, etc. Sometimes these estates came into the family through the wife's dowry.
Your William was born 30 Dec 1699. His parents were Alexander Hay of Spott and Catherine Charters, who were married 22 April 1697. William was the 2nd son, and inherited Lawfield on the death of his unmarried brother, Robert.
His father, Alexander, was a younger brother of the 2nd Marquess of Tweeddale. Their parents were John Hay, 1st Marquess of Tweeddale (the one who was a Colonel in the Covenanting Army, but then changed sides) and Jean, daughter of the Earl of Buccleugh.
My insertion follows.
This is where the Charles II comes in. I have read that the first illegitimate son of Charles II was made Duke of Buccleugh. Jean is our link to Charles II.
His parents were John Hay 1st earl of Tweeddale and Jean, daughter of the Earl of Dunfermline.
His parents were James Hay, 7th Lord Hay of Yester (Note -not Lord Yester) and Margaret, daughter of the Earl of Lothian.
His parents were William Hay, 5th Lord Hay of Yester and Margaret Kerr. This was another one who changed his mind, starting off supporting Mary Queen of Scots, fighting for her at the Battle of Langside, but them swooping to the opposition a year or 2 later.
His parents were John Hay, 4th Lord Hay of Yester and Margaret, daughter of Lord Livingstone. He spent some time in the Tower of London as a prisoner of war.
His parents were John Hay, 3rd Lord Hay of Yester and Elisabeth, sister of the Earl of Angus.
His parents were John Hay, 2nd Lord Hay of Yester and Elizabeth Crichton. He died at the Battle of Flodden.
His parents were John Hay, 1st Lord Hay of Yester and Mariot, daughter of Lord Lindsay.
Remember, I do not know your history as well as you do and spelling may not be 100 percent correct.
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Hello, sorry to interrupt this thread, but a Google search landed me here. I am a descendant of Robert Turnbull b. 1808, a Scottish tailor who immigrated to Canada about 1830-1835. His father was reportedly a London tailor and British army non-com officer who married the daughter of a noblewoman; the daughter was disowned, and the couple moved to Scotland where Robert was born.
Does any of this story fit with James Turnbull or another Turnbull as noted above?
Thank you.
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Will, there is a likelyhood. Our James Turnbull was a stocking weaver in Edinburgh. His daughter Elizabeth was the first wife of William Hay of Spott and Lawfield. James would probably have been of the 1700's. Children often stayed in the same or a similar profession. He most likely had children other than his daughter Elizabeth. You might descend from him. This disowning tradition often took place in those days. A tailor, Peter Sellers, was at the marriage of our Mary Hay. I live in America and relied on Fiona Sinclare of Aberdeen who makes routine trips to Ediburgh to do research. She has access that not everyone has and incredible knowledge of Scotland's history. You might send her a note at (*). If this address does not make it through Roots Chat, just Google Fiona Sinclare as she has many sights on the internet. Roots Chat itself may offer some research for you.
Sincerely, Shirley
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I have just discovered this site whilst looking for the history of my ancestor Lady Mary Hay. My grandmother was Isabella Carruthers (nee Kirkland). An aunt was kind enough to do a family tree for me a few years ago and at the top was LM Hay!
I think this makes her my great,great,great,great grand mother. Her daughter Bess married Hugh Kirkland, their son William married a McColl, a son Angus married a Watson and one of their daughters was my grandmother Isabella. Isabella went on to marry William Carruthers they had 12 children, 3 died in infancy. 5 including my mother are still alive. I have 38 cousins in this side of the family!
I was intrigued to see we may go as far back as Edward 1st.
Anne
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Anne, you now have one more cousin! My grandmother was the youngest of William Kirkland and Isobel McColl's children. She was named after our lady Mary Hay. Her name was Mary Hay Kirkland. One of her sister's left some money to my mother and it was Isabella Carruthers who went to great effort to find my mother in America to see that she received the money. I have some letters written by Isabella. My mother and I met Bill and Margaret Carrouthers in 1966 or 67 at Netherton Farm.
I have seen Avon Bank farm where Angus and his wife lived. My grandmother lived there also while taking care of the children of Angus when his wife died. I assumed he remarried. My home is near DC. and I just returned from a month in Scotland. You have several cousins in Australia as well.
Shirley
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Anne, you now have one more cousin! My grandmother was the youngest of William Kirkland and Isobel McColl's children. She was named after our lady Mary Hay. Her name was Mary Hay Kirkland. One of her sisters left some money to my mother and it was Isabella Carruthers who went to great effort to find my mother in America to see that she received the money. I have some letters written by Isabella. My mother and I met Bill and Margaret Carrouthers in 1966 or 67 at Netherton Farm.
I have seen Avon Bank farm where Angus and his wife lived. My grandmother lived there also while taking care of the children of Angus when his wife died. I assumed he remarried. My home is near DC. and I just returned from a month in Scotland. You have several cousins in Australia as well.
Shirley
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Hello Shirley,
On my Family tree it states a Mary Kirkland went to Denver Colorado, I presume this is your grand mother? Did you see Bill this time when you were here ? He will be 80 this year.
Have you discovered anything about LM Mary's ancestors, some one from Lanark seems to have a great deal of informaton and links her as great granddaughter of Marquess of Tweeddale? Possibly even back to Edward 3rd and Edward 1st. It would be great to complete the jig saw. I will go to St Brides Douglas and see the family graves next time I am in the area.
Anne
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Yes, Mary Kirkland was my grandmother. She died in 1912 in the typhoid epidemic in Denver. Isabella was the last person who knew Mary. Isabella died two months before I got my mother there. The Hay history is fascinating for those of us who did not know it all along. LW is a treasure trove of information. I did not see William this time. I was there in 1967 or so. I met LW who is very knowledgeable and nice. Lady Mary actually lived at Spott which is on the market for a great sum. It even has a dungeon! The coach yard is beautiful with smooth river rock most likely from the ravine paved into square meter patterns. White flowers were in bloom as if water was flowing down the ravine. I did get to see Yester house which is on the market also. It needs a great deal of work. Google the Hay chapel of Bothans which is where our ancestors are buried. If you have time, take a trip to Gifford. I stayed at Tweeddale Arms. That area is rich with Hay history. They were very helpful to me. I shall be engraving and sending my great aunt's silver tea set to them in Mary's memory. She and William were married at Canongate Kirk. I can tell you that William and Hugh Kirkland went to Australia and all their sons died in WW!. Julia descendants are still there. How are you related to William of Netherton? Someone related to Archibald contacted me recently also.
The grave stone in Douglas is very far to the end of the grave yard near the wall. Worn but beautiful for those of us who remember her.
Sincerely, Shirley
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Hi Shirley,
My mother Margaret is William's older sister. Angus, Margaret, William, Julia and Isobel are the last of Isablla's children. Angus lives in North England and the rest still live in Scotland.
Isobel was very interested to hear what I had found out about the history.
Anne
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I am as you may gather a direct descendant of Thomas Scott and Mary Lawson of Netherhall Sandilands. You have a direct line from Thomas's only sister. My late grandmother Jessie Scott Todd Tennant of Ponfeigh Place Farm and Netherton Farm Hyndfordbridge can recall her grandmother Janet Scott talk about her grandmother Mary Hay (Scott) of Netherhall.
I am curently trying to do some research on Hon. Wiliam Hay of Lawfield - father of Mary Hay and in particular his first wife who we did not know about until fairly recently.
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That information is hard to access. The Scottish woman who helped me found it in a Spott book in Edinburgh. William's two children from his 'marriage' to Elizabeth Turnbull sued for legitimacy in 1774. They may have had to be 21 before they could bring action. The daughter was married at the time. One record reads that Elizabeth Turnbull died in childbirth in 1758. Her father's name was James Turnbull. That would have been about the time William inherited Spott. However, my understanding was that she had remarried at the time and that the husband was in attendance.
According to LWR, Elizabeth Sinclaire Hay died at the 'Lodge' which is the house at the very entrance of the estate of Spott.
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I too was trawling through when I saw mention of the Carruthers and Netherton. My g great uncle was Andrew Carruthers (father of William Carruthers) who died in 1926 at Netherton Farm. I am looking for any info, stories and esp photos of the family as there arent any in existence in our family.
Any help would be much appreciated.
Thanks and regards
Robyn
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I do have a picture of Bill Carrouthers, Margaret and I believe three children from 1967. It is presently in a trunk in a Manila envelope marked 'Kirkland'. Saved are two handwritten letters from Isabella Carrouthers. All I remember about Bill is that he traveled a great deal regarding the agricultural industry. I believe he was dairy. I had assumed Isabella was the daughter of Elizabeth Kirkland Kelley but do not really know.
Shirley
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I have just spoken to uncle Bill Carruthers and he thinks his Grandfather Andrew Carruthers lived at Yard Bent Farm near Strathaven.
William Carruthers had 2 brothers Andrew and Tom both went to NZ neither had children. One of William's sons Andrew went out in 1935.
The photo you have of Bill & Margaret taken 1967 would be of them with their 3 children. The youngest was only a baby that year.
Sadly Bill had the news that his elder brother Angus passed away last week. This leaves four of the family left.
I have been doing a lot more research on the Hay line and it in includes a few royals !!
I need to just clarify the facts.
Anne
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Thanks for the info on Andrew.
Yes thats right Williams brothers went to Middlemarch in the South Island as did William's son - he called his farm Netherton.
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Hello!
I'm related to the Hays through a marriage that took place in the 1700s. Archibald Watt, who married Elizabeth Hay (a daughter of William Hay of Spott and Elizabeth Turnbull), was a brother of my ancestor Isabella Watt, who in turn was married to William Ballantine, a shoemaker in Edinburgh. Do you happen to have any information on Archibald Watt's ancestors? I only know that his father was James Watt, a tailor in Pleasance, Edinburgh, but can't find anything about him in the parish registers.
Regards,
Robin
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How interesting, Robin. I wondered what our chances of finding someone from William's marriage to Elizabeth Turnbull was. I know only that her father was James Turnbull, a stocking weaver in Edinburgh. That William was previously married was found in a Spott book in Edinburgh by a genealogist. I have no idea when he married Ms Turnbull or when they divorced. Together, I believe they had the two children Elizabeth and William a son. They sued William Hay to claim paternity and the estate but did not win the case. William married Elizabeth Sinclair, half his age, about the time he inherited Spott. The Hays and the Sinclairs were very close families. The earlier family was grown at the time. I believe Elizabeth Turnbull had remarried and died and that the husband had been present at the trial. It was suggested one had to be a certain age to pursue such a suit. Do you know anything about the brother, William Hay? Sorry I can't help you with the Watts.
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Hi
Archibald Ballantine (1773-1817), the son of William Ballantine and Isabella Watt, apprenticed to an Edinburgh barber in 1780s and then moved to Bo'ness (West Lothian) in the 1790s. He got married at Bo'ness in 1795 to Janet Turnbull. I haven't been able to find parents for this Janet, because she probably belonged to an associate congregation, but the 1841 Census states that she was born in West Lothian around 1781 (+/- 5 years). I'm wondering if there is a link to the previously mentioned James Turnbull, who was the first father-in-law of William Hay.
Strangely enough, I also have another connection to the Hays of Tweeddale via marriage: Jane Primrose (died 1858), a cousin of my ancestor, was married since 1837 to George Forster Hay-Primrose (died 1856), who served as a surgeon in India. He was a great great grandson of John Hay, 2nd Marquess of Tweeddale (the brother of your ancestor).
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Hello,
I have not been online for a while, do you know when Andrew and Tom Carruthers came to New Zealand and when they died. Does Andrew still live in Central Otago. What relation are they to William Scott and Mary Hay.
I am also trying to trace Mary Scott widow of Tom and Willie Tom's brother who I believe are in Bury, Lancashire. Tom and Willie would be the gggrandsons of Mary Lawson and Thomas Scott.
Thankyou Elizabeth