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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: sgrollitt on Friday 19 June 09 10:21 BST (UK)
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My partner never knew her grandparents on her father's side. Her elder sister says that their grandfather was an Indian merchant seaman. He married a Danish woman and took her surname. He was hero in New York when his ship got into trouble and he dived into the sea several times (River Potomac?) to save lives. (Was one of those lives saved his future Danish wife?). That would have been about 1920. They married and settled in Liverpool
Looking at the records, Mohamddin Peterson (also seems to be known as John Peterson) married Margaret McLachlan in West Derby in the Dec quarter of 1922 at St Margaret's in Walton.
It is also said that although my partner's grandmother's father was Danish, there was some Scottish ancestry too, which would tie in with the McLachlan surname. There were several Peterson children born in Liverpool between 1923 and 1932 with McLachlan as the mother, including my partner's father.
Can anyone see what became of Mohammdin (aka John?) Peterson and his wife Margaret?
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Hi
Mohamddin Peterson's name appears in a Report and Manifest of shipwrecked crew, saved in the North Atlantic, from S/S "Sea Rambler", owners Dover Nav. Co. Ltd, London February 10th 1940:
[in a list of 12 names]
Mohamddin Peterson, aged 49, Fireman, nationality Indian
ETA: the manifest of the M/S Mosdale, which rescued the 12 men, gave a few further details about Mohamddin Peterson when it reached New York on 16 Feb 1940:
- 25 years' service
- engaged 6 January 1940 at Swansea
- height 5ft 11in
- weight 65 kilos.
Anna :)
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Anna,
That's a marvellous find! Thank you very much.
Simon
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Hi again
It appears 13 other men from the Sea Rambler were rescued by the Norwegian vessel M/T Kaia Knudsen "in a raging snow storm in the North Atlantic":
http://www.warsailors.com/singleships/kaiaknudsen.html
Anna :)
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I'm a bit confused about the Danish connection. Mohamddin/John seems already to have had a Danish surname (Peterson) before he married Margaret. I wonder whether:
1. Mohamddin had been married before to a Danish Miss Peterson (whose name he took), or
2. the generations have been mixed up, and Mohamddin was in fact (though born in India) half-Danish - his father having married a Dane and taken her name?
"It is also said that although my partner's grandmother's father was Danish, there was some Scottish ancestry too, which would tie in with the McLachlan surname. There were several Peterson children born in Liverpool between 1923 and 1932 with McLachlan as the mother, including my partner's father."
Are you saying here that Margaret also had some Danish blood, or was she straightforwardly Scottish?
I also wonder whether Mohamddin's heroics were not in the 1920s after all, but were connected with the 1940 shipwreck? (After which he was taken to New York).
Anna :)
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Yes I'm sure the family story about the heroic Indian grandfather that got passed down was a little confused. He was a fireman and probably did rescue some of his fellow sailor's lives, but that was before the ship Mosdale rescued his. And the New York connection was that the Mosdale was heading for New York and took the rescued sailors ther.
The family story is that Mohamddin married a Danish woman, and that it is normal practice in Denmark for the husband to take on the wife's surname. If this isn't the case, then I wonder if Mohamddin used the name to help him gain British citizenship.
Being 49 in 1940 at the time of the rescue, Mohamddin must have been born about 1891 in India. And with his name he was probably a Muslim.
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Yes I'm sure the family story about the heroic Indian grandfather that got passed down was a little confused. He was a fireman and probably did rescue some of his fellow sailor's lives, but that was before the ship Mosdale rescued his. And the New York connection was that the Mosdale was heading for New York and took the rescued sailors ther.
I agree - though just for clarity, a fireman on a steamship was not a firefighter - he was a person who stoked the fires which generated the steam.
The family story is that Mohamddin married a Danish woman, and that it is normal practice in Denmark for the husband to take on the wife's surname. If this isn't the case, then I wonder if Mohamddin used the name to help him gain British citizenship.
But was this Danish woman Margaret, or some previous wife? From what you said earlier - "my partner's grandmother's father was Danish" it sounded as though you thought Margaret was half-Danish. But she doesn't seem to have brought the Peterson name into the picture - and Mohamddin didn't take her surname of McLachlan...
Also, his nationality remained "Indian" on that 1940 manifest, so it doesn't look as though he was naturalised as British.
ETA: obviously the 1922 marriage certificate ought to help clarify some of these points.
Anna :)
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He arrived back in Liverpool in March 1940 on the Georgic. "Gas masks issued to all passengers and DBS as necessary". What was DBS I wonder? Mohamed Din Peterson, 90 Upper Canning Street, fireman.
There is a WW1 medal card for his army service in the Liverpool Regt (5602) and Manchester Regt (203899) British War Medal and Victory Medal.
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It may be just a coincidence but there is a short story by Rudyard Kipling called "The Story of Muhammed Din" . It's in Plain Tales from the Hills which was published in 1888.
It opens with a quotation from Munichandra, translated by Professor Peterson.
"Who is the happy man? He that sees in his own house at home little children crowned with dust, leaping and falling and crying."
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The 'synchronicity' to Kipling / Professor Peterson is very intriguing....
The Professor was Peter PETERSON 1847 - 1899, who was born in Scotland; his father was John PETERSEN and mother Grace Mountford ANDERSON, they had abt 13 children. Peter was the Professor of Sanskrit at the Elphinstone College in Bombay. As a Commoner of Balliol College in 1870, he was awarded The Boden Sanskrit Scholarship, and spent much time in India. Three of his 4 children (4 that I know of) by wife Agnes CHRISTALL (married 1872 in Glasgow) were born there. His brother, William PETERSON (1856-1921) was for many years the head of McGill University in Montreal Canada, though he eventually returned to England. William's obituary in 1921 said he (so therefore Peter too?) was from a mixed Scottish & Norwegian ancestry. The PETERSON family was from Edinburgh and earlier than that, the generation of Peter's grandparents were from Wall in Shetland - not seen any other evidence of a Norwegian as yet. Peter's grandparents were Revd. Peter PETERSON and Barbara MANN.
Have collected & googled up a fair bit of information on the Peter PETERSON's, the above is a summary. Many of them had "notable" lives - and I am absolutely busting to know who the father of Mohamad Din/John PETERSON is stated to be on the 1922 marriage certificate! ;D
Cheers
AMBLY
added: actaully there is other evidence of Nordic ancestry - one or Peter's brothers and one of his uncles was named Magnus PETERSON.
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Wow! Great find. I'll let you know as soon as I do who Mohamed's father was.
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" He arrived back in Liverpool in March 1940 on the Georgic. "Gas masks issued to all passengers and DBS as necessary". What was DBS I wonder? Mohamed Din Peterson, 90 Upper Canning Street, fireman. "
Strangely on the Luisitania entry tonight there is a link to a website where DBS is mentioned , it states that it means Deported British seaman .
Sounds reasonable to me.
UKD
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Sorry everyone I have nothing constructive to add but this is just fascinating and I too am dying to know how it resolves. Could it be that Mohamed took the surname of his friend Prof Peter Peterson who he knew back in India, but there may not be any family connection. He probably got sick of having to spell his Indian surname and thought it might make life easier to be Peterson ... :)
... or have I missed something? :-\ ...
Added later: Now thinking about the connection to the Kipling story which was published in 1888 (when was Mohamed born? :-\) ... now my imagination is running away with me and I wonder if Mohamed read this story then decided to 'borrow' the names of the people in it?
What an interesting character.
Can't wait for that certificate .... ;D
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Hi
Is this the website?
http://www.rmslusitania.info/pages/third_class/index.html
it says : D.B.S. (this possibly means deported British Seaman)
On this website is another possible explanation (the writer has a 'clipped' manner of 'speech'):
http://www.mercantilemarine.org/showthread.php?t=446
"Considering that all Merchant Seamen during Wartime Pay the responsibility of Government, Shipping Companies, etc. was absolved. All Articles of Agreement ceased and merchant seamen were declared DBS, Destitute British Seamen. Before the vessel settled on the Bottom. (Find your own way home Sallies, Red Cross) "
Hi Ruskie
Me n' you both ;D Peter Peterson was dead in 1899, at which time Mohamed Din was by all acounts only about 9 years old....
Peter Peterson had, in the 1891 Census, only 4 children - 3 girls and 1 boy. Only the youngest was born in England.
The boy was John Carlos Kennedy PETERSON born in India 1876 and only 15 in 1891, died Wales 1955. This is such an interesting family - would be so neat to find a link to them with Mohamad Din.
I'd be really interested to know how Mohamed Din looked too, his visage & complexion/coloring? English/Scottish? Indian? A bit of both?
Cheers
AMBLY
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I have to fess up - a lot of British men in India formed intimate relationships with Indian women (and often both parties were high standing in their respective societies).....producing children who were sometimes introduced into English society, so I wondered if Peter......even though he appears to come from quite a pious background and would have been married at the time....
While - we - wait : I was involved in this other thread too, also about a mystery Indian born man with very good connections to English society (and to the Indian as it happens) - we were lucky enough to have a descendant of one of the branches join in with some very interesting relevations - page 2 of the thread is facinating!
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,325850.0.html
Cheers
AMBLY
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Oh good, I thought it was just my imagination running away with me. ;) I really like your theory about illegitimacy. Sounds possible date wise too.
Sgrollitt, I hope you're getting this marriage cert sent by priority mail - we can't wait verylong!
I'll have a look at the link to the other thread too Ambly (thanks :)).
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> Peter's grandparents were from Wall in Shetland - not seen any other evidence of a Norwegian as yet.
> added: actaully there is other evidence of Nordic ancestry - one or Peter's brothers and one of his uncles was named
> Magnus PETERSON.
Most -son named Shetlanders at that time would have considered themselves to be descendants of Norse people, and many would not have thought of themselves as Scottish.
There's a photo of Revd. Peter Peterson in my g-grandparents' photo album - you can find a copy at
http://www.bayanne.info/Shetland/showmedia.php?mediaID=108&medialinkID=108
The caption on it - written by my g-aunt Christina Jamieson - says "Progenitor of many professors". Originally I wondered whether that meant literally or that he'd been a schoolmaster and his pupils had gone on to great things. So it was fascinating to discover that several of his grandsons had been professors (I'm not sure if the unfortunate Magnus Peterson who died of choking at a meal in Christchurch, NZ, where he was organist, was a professor or not).
I too have been looking around for info. about this family and would love to know if there are other photos around. Clearly, there are other living descendants (including a Henry Magnus), but as for Mohamddin, I have no idea - there are plenty of other Petersons, some with an Indian connection, the name's common in enough in the British Isles, so someone would have to have /some/ reason to say "Danish". But perhaps that cert. will show.
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I rang the Liverpool Register Office this morning and they have a backlog of work - hence my certificates have not yet arrived. Sorry for the delay - I'm as keen as you. Thank you for making this a very interesting topic and I hope it won't be too long before I can post some more details.
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Just to add that Mohamed Din Peterson had black hair and dark brown eyes, but his skin colour was quite light. My partner remembers him as a quite tall, very thin man.
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Photo's of two of Prof. Peter PETERSON's younger brothers ( grandchildren all 3 of the Revd. Peter PETERSON).
[Prof Peter seems to have had had 7 brothers and 4 sisters, plus another sister and possibly another brother who died young]
Photo of Sir William PETERSON (1856 Sct - 1921 Eng), Educationalist, McGill University Canada
http://wapedia.mobi/en/William_Peterson_(academic)
Photo (not a good quality) of Magnus PETERSON )1854 sct -1894 nz), Organist and Choirmaster
http://www.rootschat.com/links/06lj/
twageos,
Can't believe I hadn't come across your site when I was hunting them out ;D my google finger was be slipping! Love the photo of Revd Peter - a clear smile or supressed grin, not quite in keeping with the photographic conventions of the day!
Magnus may not have been a professor, but his (their) other brother was - Franklin Seivright PETERSON:1861 Sct -1914 Aus]
http://adbonline.anu.edu.au/biogs/A110215b.htm
Cheers ;D
AMBLY
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The marriage certificate arrived. It hasn't negated the theory that he came from the famous, academic Peterson family of Scottish/Norweigan descent, but it has made it less likely.
On 4 December 1922 Mohamddin (otherwise John, and signed as John in very good handwriting) Peterson married Margaret McLachlan at St Margaret's, Anfield, Liverpool. He was 28 and was thus born about 1894 (a later ship's record suggested that he was born about 1891). He was a labourer and living at 96 Colt Street. I haven't checked the exact location yet, but I imagine this is also in the Anfield area. Mohameddin's father was also a labourer and was called GULAM MOHAMED. I can only guess where the Peterson name came from, but the family story is that Mohamddin married a Danish or Scandanavian lady and assumed her surname. I suppose Gulam could have done this a generation earlier.
I don't know whether Gulam was also in Liverpool, but he was still alive in 1922.
I need to check census records online and also the Electoral Registers in Liverpool. My partner is from Liverpool, but we both live in Shropshire now, so if there is some kind soul...
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It was 96 Celt Street, not Colt Street. Celt Street is in the Fairfield area of Liverpool not far from Everton. Many of the houses in that area were removed in the slum clearances of the 60s and 70s. In 1901 the houses in Celt Street only went up to 51.
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I've been searching the censuses and haven't come up with anything except on the 1911 census:
TRAINING SHIP INDEFATIGABLE
RIVER MERSEY, ROCK FERRY, County Cheshire
(District Birkenhead, Subdistrict Tranmere)
JOHN PETERSON, 15, SEA APPRENTICE, b.LIVERPOOL, LANCS
I don't have access to ancestry.com to check for the death of Gulam Mohamed after 1922, but the online Lancashire death records don't show him.
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It all gets more interesting. ;D
Unusual name Gulam Mohamed. I found this on Freebmd:
Marriages Jun 1923
Matilda Andrews = Gulam Mahomed
Liverpool 8b 172
I wonder who this is?
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Good spot Ruskie.
Gulam means slave or servant so presumably Gulam Mohamed means 'servant of Mohamed'.
I thought Mohamddin Peterson must come from a Muslim family because it's also written Mohamed Din Peterson. Din (or Deen) is an Arabic word usually translated as "religion" but also as "way of life", especially referring to Islam, known as ad-din "the deen", or din al-haqq "the true deen". It is, however, not exclusive to Islam, as Arab Christians also use it to refer to their religion and religion in general.
I did find an Irish O'Connor family living at 96 Celt Street in 1911. So Mohammdin and Margaret moved in some time betrween 1911 and 1922.
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Thanks for the explanation - quite complicated isn't it. ;) On freebmd there are a couple of births and deaths for Gulam Mohameds as well.
Have you found Mohammddin or Margaret in 1901?
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I found Margaret McLachlan in 1901 at 3 Hook St, Liverpool:
- Samuel Mclachlan, head, 38, Marine Stoker, b.Liverpool
- Mary Mclachlan, wife, 32, b.Glasgow
- Sarah A Mclachlan, dau, 13, b.Liverpool
- Andrew Mclachlan, son, 12, b.Liverpool
- John Mclachlan, son, 8, b.Liverpool
- Agnes Mclachlan, dau, 4, b.Liverpool
- Margaret Mclachlan, dau, 0, b.Liverpool
But I haven't found Mohamddin Peterson. I searched for Mohamddin and variants and John. There were several (five) John possibilities, but none correct. I think I found Mohamddin (John) in 1911 as a 15-year old trainee sailor (see previous).
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I suppose it all hinges on when Mohamddin came to the UK (he may not have been in the UK for the 1901) and whether or not he came alone or with parents, and whether it was Gulam who married the Scandinavian/Danish wife.
I suppose it's possible that Margaret is Mohamddin's second wife .... :-\
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You found birth/death records for Gulam Mohamed? I can't find any (except for the one in Poplar, Middlesex).
I'm thinking now that Gulam Mohamed married a Scandanavian lady, probably in India since Mohamddin was born there in about 1894, and then came to England. Mohamddin was well settled in England by the time he was 15 (1911) - he had assumed the name John and was training to be a sailor - a job he did until at least 1940 (apart from December 1922 when he married and was a labourer). Gulam became a labourer when he came to England. He must have been born about 1870, and was still alive in 1922 aged about 52. His Scandanavian wife might have died and he married again in 1923 in Liverpool to Matilda Andrews.
The marriage certficate states that Margaret McLachlan was Mohamddin's first wife - and Mohamddin was Margaret's first husband.
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On freebmd, search for births, and marriages, and deaths, using simply the first name Gulam (nothing else), you get a couple of results. None of them are yours but I was surprised that there were any results at all. (sorry if I misled you into thinking one was yours :-[)
Your theory sounds very plausible. And my theory about a previous marriage for Mohamddin is incorrect. :)
Apart from the obvious search for deaths, I can't advise you on what to do next - perhaps take the search to India? Perhaps a new thread on how to trace Indian records might be an option? You could include a link to this thread to make it easier for yourself and anyone who may be able to help.
I hope others may be able to help further as it would be a shame for your search to end here.
Good luck.
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I don't want to close the door yet on the possibility that my partner might be related to the famous and academic Peterson family of Scottish/Norweigan descent.
Her great-grandfather Gulam Mohamed could have had a relationship, even married, one of the daughters of John Peterson (merchant) and Grace Montford (nee Anderson). These daughters were:
- ANN PETERSON b.6 JUN 1845 in South Leith, Midlothian
- BARBARA MANN PETERSON b.29 NOV 1848 at Saint Cuthberts, Edinburgh, Midlothian
- MARGARET GRACE PETERSON b.25 NOV 1862 at Saint Cuthberts, Edinburgh, Midlothian
- GUILILMA FRANCES PETERSON b.17 MAR 1869 at Saint Cuthberts, Edinburgh, Midlothian
Date-wise, the last two seem most likely, but I can't find any more information about them.
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This continues to be a fascinating thread!
Just to add that Mohamed Din Peterson had black hair and dark brown eyes, but his skin colour was quite light. My partner remembers him as a quite tall, very thin man.
This (tall, thin) fits in well with the 1940 passenger list I quoted at reply #1 above, in which he was said to be 5ft 11in and 65 kilos.
I just wish we could find Gulam Mohamed and/or Mohammddin/John Peterson arriving from India...
Anna
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UPDATE
John Peterson was born on 16 April 1894. He was christened on 23 November 1922 at Anfield, Lancashire aged 28. His father was Gulam Peterson and his mother was Susie.
So John (Mohamddin) was probably born in India, came over to England with his parents at a young age, became known as John and converted in 1922. His father might have converted at the same time as assumed the name Peterson too.
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Congratulations - that's a great find!
Is there any evidence that Gulam/Susie were ever in England? Who were the witnesses to the Dec 1922 marriage?
Anna
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Witnesses at the 1922 marriage were Edwin John Taylor and Sarah Ludwidge or Ledridge.
Are one or more of the parents normally witnesses? Do you think this means that Gulam and Susie were not in England?
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No, the fact that the parents weren't witnesses doesn't tell you by any means that they weren't in England (but had they been witnesses it would have been proof that they were).
This Nov 1922 baptism comes shortly before a Dec 1922 marriage, so I wonder whether he was baptised in contemplation of a forthcoming church wedding.
It seems to me possible that Mohammddin/John made his own way to England as a young man, rather then being brought here by his parents. Regrettably I still can't find any of them in inbound passenger lists! I wonder whether in fact he first arrived as crew on a ship rather than as a passenger.
The 1911 census sighting of a 15 yr old John Peterson worries me a bit, in that the lad says he was born in Liverpool, not India. And Mohammdin/John would have been 16 and very nearly 17 on the date of the 1911 census (2 April 1911). John Peterson is a sufficiently common name that I'd be cautious about taking this as a firm match.
Incidentally, there is a short report on the wrecking of the Sea Rambler in The Times, 26 March 1940.
Anna :)
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I've been struggling in vain to find anything more about Mohamddin's parents Gulam Mohamed and Susie Peterson. The church in Anfield where Mohamddin (aka John) Peterson was christened aged 28 in November 1922 was probably St Margarets, since that's where he married a month later to Margaret McLachlan.
Are there any records still existing in Liverpool for St Margarets?
I'm guessing that Mohamddin Peterson died sometime between 1965 and 1985 in Liverpool as John Peterson.
I'm also guessing that his parents were also in Liverpool and that they (probably named Gulam Peterson and Susie Peterson) died there between 1935 and 1960. They could have been living in Upper Canning Street in 1940.
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One of the marriage witnesses was Margaret's sister Sarah.
Sarah A McLachlan married Nicholas J Ledwidge at St Peter's Liverpool in 1916 (Lancs BMD).
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That's a smashing find! Why didn't I think of it. Thank you.
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i was most interested in reading about mohamddin peterson.As i was born at 90 upper canning st.1 lived there till 1953 i was 8 yrs when i left.but i remember mr peterson.If its the same one he lived there with his wife&3sons. one was called tommy. i also knew after they left canning street they moved to a street of lodge lane lpool hope this helps
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Oh my goodness! What a lovely post to read.
Mohameddin (aka John) and his wife Margaret had:
- Robert in 1927 (married in 1951)
- Samuel in 1930 (known as Sammy and never married)
- Joseph in 1932 (known as Joey)
- Thomas in 1939 (known as Tommy)
Do you remember him as Mr Peterson or Mo or John?
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hi again im really glad that this is the same mr peterson. i never new him by anything else but mr peterson.Tommy was a good friend of my brother eddie francis.i remember when they moved my mum took me to there house.Tommy was married by then.i would love to know what happened to everyone.
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Sammy died in 2008. I will try to find out a bit more about Joey and Tommy.
You mentioned that your mum took you to their new house off Lodge Lane. What year would that have been and were Mr and Mrs Peterson still alive?
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i was sorry to hear about sammy.you ask about the date i used to visit m&mrs peterson it must have been about 1966 or there abouts and they were alive then
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sgrollitt,
I have been reading this post but can't remember if anyone has checked the phone books for addresses for the Petersons, or when they were no longer listed so you can narrow down date of death?
Perhaps look for obituaries as well. Sorry if this has already been done or suggested earlier in this thread.
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I know it sounds strange, but my partner cannot recall for the life of her when her grandparents Mohammdin (John) and Margaret Peterson died. Cmail said that they were still alive in about 1966. Mohamddin would have been 72 at that time and Margaret 66.
Cmail also said that after leaving 90 Upper Canning Street in about 1945, they went to live on a street off Lodge Lane, Liverpool (about half a mile south east of Liverpool University). These are all the streets off Lodge Lane:
Seacole Close, Bentley Road, Coltart Road, Tagus Street, Ritson Street, Asbridge Street, Solway Street West, Windsor View, Beaumont Street, Buttermere Street, Yanwath Street, Noel Street, Longfellow Street, Boswell Street
Wordsworth Street, Vandyke Street, Aspen Grove, Cedar Grove, Lime Grove, Moss Grove, and Fern Grove.
I wonder which one it was?
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mr&mrs peterson were still living in canning street when we left in 1953 im sure.You mentioned your partner could i ask what side of the family does your partner belong I am really interested to now. If there is anything else i can help with i would be happy to help.
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She's the daughter of Robert - Tommy's eldest brother.
Did Mr Peterson have a Liverpudlian accent or an Indian accent? Anything else at all you remember about him? Was there ever any other Indian-looking people at the house - may be an old guy who could have been his father?
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i never remembered robert or joseph. mr peterson what i can remember of him he never spoke very much.when he did i think it was broken english.my mother was very friendly with we knew her as maggie she was a loverly woman. Iwas looking at one of my mums old diarys and in 1969 she had put .in it been to the petersons .She used to go often.Do you now what happened to tommy?
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Hi cmail - I sent you a personal message.
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Hi my name is Mandy Peterson. Mohamddin Peterson was my grand father and Margaret McLachlan was my grandmother. I am the youngest daughter of Thomas Peterson and have for some months,
been trying to trace my family tree on my grandmothers side as the search was useless on my grandfathers side. He was born in Karachi (then part of India) and all records ... I believe .....were destroyed in a fire many years ago.
I would love to find out where your partner fits into my family tree ?????
please reply Thanks Mandy
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Death Index
Mohamddin Peterson
Birth date: 16 Apr 1892
Died: Oct/Nov/Dec 1973
Age: 81
Reg. Dist: Liverpool
Vol: 10d
Page: 914
Asian men in Liverpool were often called John in the old days so maybe that's were the name John comes from. There was a Japanese seaman that was called Paddy Murphy:-
http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100regionalnews/content_objectid=14034960_method=full_siteid=50061_headline=-The-faces-of-modern-Liverpool-name_page.html
C
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Hi Mandy
I can't send you a personal message (PM). I think you might need to have a few more posts before you can send/receive PMs.
Anyway, your relative is the daughter of your uncle Robert.
More later
Simon
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hi simon ...yes im new to this.....this is my second posting.....hold on an ill send my 3rd
thanks
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hi again ..thanks for replying to my post. Im really intrested in some of the detail you found and I have so many questions. :) ....could we keep intouch
thanks mandy