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Some Special Interests => Occupation Interests => Topic started by: lizb on Thursday 18 June 09 15:13 BST (UK)
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I have been very lucky in finding the seaman's ticket issued to one of my ancestors in the BT113 and 114 series at the National Archives. The ticket was issued in 1846 - soon after the tickets were introduced - and has entries until 1848 by which time their use was being abandoned.
The ticket provides some interesting information about the ticket holder - height. hair colour, eyes, whether can write etc - and also coded information related to voyages which is difficult to interpret. I would love to know where my ancestor travelled - especially on the foreign trips.
I have made a start at interpretting this information using The National Archives Domestic Records Inforamtion leaflets 89, 112 and 114 but have not got very far. I am writing this in the hope that maybe it will be read by someone who is more skilled than me or who has looked at these tickets before and can advise.
I attach a copy of the portion of the ticket showing the voyage details. The ticket was issued at Newport on 14 Nov 1846 and my ancestor was an apprentice. Hence the 'A' at the top of the coloumn for apprentice. and the '72.19.11' at the bottom of the 1846 column means that crew lists were filed in Newport on 19 Nov 1846. Similarly '90.5.4' means crew lists were filed at Southampton on 5 April 1847. Can anyone help me any further?
MY ancestor came from Bristol so I would expect some reference to the port of Bristol.
I would be grateful for any advice or suggestions
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I'm puzzling with these too. Looking at 1847 in your pic, I think it says out 4137.64.1- 76.8.5 and home 4137/64.1 - 64. 28.7
My guess is ship 4137 of 64 London - filed 76 Padstow 8th May and
same ship 4137 of 64 London - to London 28th Aug. I don't know what the .1 means.
(This is the same ship as the previous entries)
Then in 1848 it's hard to read but it might be 1794,92,71 - 92.25.5 and home 9576981 and15,10,?
My guess is he starts on ship 1794 of Sunderland, returns filed at 92 Sunderland on 25 May. But I am confused by the Home column, which is hard to read. It looks like it is a different ship so it could be registered and filing anywhere.
If there is an expert out there who can check this I would be very interested! I have to learn about this to make sense of some of my own ancestors.
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Hi, was just about to post with the same question - having just found two tickets for my ggg uncle.
The later one - 1856 names both ports (London to Melbourne) but I am equally curious to know how to read the coded information in the earlier one.
His earlier ticket for out in 1845 reads S 3006,64,11, 64,1,6 and home in 1846 reads S 3006,64,11 64,18,5
Hope someone can shed some light on it!
Caroline.
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I'm stuck with this too. I was thrilled to bits to find the record of the 3 x gt grandfather who has been my brick wall since the beginning of my family history research. ;D ;D ;D However, I too am really struggling to make sense of what the codes mean, I've traced some to domestic ports but don't know how they relate to ultimate destinations.
If nothing else my post will bump this up the board and perhaps Seaweed or one of the other clever Rootschatters will spot it and be able to help. :)
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Hello lizb,
I am sure Seaweed will clarify the various entries.
Whilst waiting to see the outcome I had a look at the "Welsh Mariners Index" site and see some entries relating to Mermaid ON 4137 and Ann & Susan ON 1794.
There are a number of entries relating to Jones, Roberts and Davies for various dates - might be of interest or give other leads ?
jcmac.
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Hello lizb again,
Hold that result !!!
Just realised the dates were in the 1840's before ON system started. Best wait for an expert !?
jcmac.
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I am really pleased that this query has worked its way up to the top of the pile again. My ticket is that of my great x 2 grandfather and I Am still trying to sort out what he was doing for the period after 1846. In particular he is missing from the 1851 census. prior to going to sea he had been in trouble with the law which may have been why he travelled from Bristol to Newport before getting his ticket. In the mid 1850s he married and settled back in Bristol working in the docks.
Lizb
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While we're waiting ....... ;)
Lizb, you said "the '72.19.11' at the bottom of the 1846 column means that crew lists were filed in Newport on 19 Nov 1846. Similarly '90.5.4' means crew lists were filed at Southampton on 5 April 1847."
I haven't found anywhere that explains this to me, could you please point me to where I can suss it out?
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Information on codes used for ports is in one of guidance notes issued by National Archives - see my first post. It may be possible to download from their website. I will look them out tomorrow. Lizb
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I tried before to find it from your post but without any success. Thanks anyway. :)
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Hi Roo,
I found it from a link in FindMyPast but the pages you want to get are at:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/research-guides/merchant-seamen-interpret-voyage-masters.htm
..and you will need the related guides mentioned on the right of that page.
Actually the pictures they give you to help with the deciphering are pretty confusing, but I think I have got the basics!
The port numbers are in the Abbreviations listing:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/research-guides/merchant-seamen-RGSS-register-abbreviations.htm
As far as I understand it, the ship numbers are unique to the port, e.g. 3006.64 is ship 3006 of 64 (London), and apparently there is no key to these "port rotation numbers". I can't believe ALL the books would be lost if they were registering ships in every port, but that's what they say. But they are different to the ON Official Numbers which identify unique ships on a national basis (I think).
We need an expert on here to sort this out (and write a better Guide)
Hope this helps!
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Hello folks,
The National Archives>A-Z>Research Guides>Merchant Navy>
Abbreviations in merchant seamen's records (112) and
Interpreting voyage details of merchant seamen in registers of seamen's tickets...(114).
4137 and 1794 (and 1751 ?) appear to be Port Rotation Numbers.
90 appears to be Southampton.
64 appears to be London.
72 appears to be Newport.
92 appears to be Sunderland.
As the details are not clear it is a bit of a guess.
jcmac.
Well done sjc204 - I think we are on the right track at last !!!
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Thanks both.
I had found the port numbers and some of them made sense - my man was from around Exeter and number 39 - Exeter cropped up a few times. I have a 3330 - 64 so sounds like it was ship 3330 and London port if I'm understanding this correctly? Confusing innit?!! I think I'll be up all night trying to understand it all. ;)
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Thanks everyone - it makes a little more sense now...
For me, the most interesting part was that 'my' fellow went to sea at the age of ten. His father was also a sailor, so I imagine he may have gone with him?
Was also amused that, in the later record I found, he spent two years sailing back and forth between Melbourne and Dunedin in 1855 and 1856, and we thought the first of our family arrived in New Zealand in 1968!
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Mine first went to sea at age 12 - poor little boys! It's hard to believe now. I'm hoping to follow his seagoing career but the best information for me was his date and place of birth, I've been trying for years to find these out. At least I now know where to look for his parentage. It was also fascinating to read his description - one record shows his height at 5ft 3ins and the other says 5ft 2 and three quarter inches! At that short a stature I expect every quarter inch counted! His crewmates were all short too so I suppose it was the norm in those days.
Told you I'd be up all night, I must stop this! ;)
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Just bumping this up the board a bit and hoping we'll get some help. :)
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Well here's another related query from me:
My man also served 4 years in the Royal navy sometime between 1830 (when he was 10 years old) and 1845.
Any records available anywhere?
Caroline.
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I too have found birth details of an ancestor that had eluded me for more than 20 years in the new release on locatemypast.
I was just about to post a thread about deciphering the code when I found the foregoing.
Thank you to those that have posted links on how it is done.
I'm now off on the hunt
Darryl
Sydney Australia
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The following thread
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,309983.20.html
explains how you can search for the film of your ancestor's voyages and hire from the LDS.
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Caroline
Your mans RN service was prior to the introduction of Continuous Service (1853) he is therefore unlikely to have a service record. Being under 18 also means that he is unlikely to have submitted a pension application to the Admiralty, but it could still be worth a check of the National Archives main catalogue in the ADM 29 series of documents. Your only other avenue, if you know the name of a ship he served on, is to look at her Ships Description book in the ADM 38 Series.
Martin
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The following thread
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,309983.20.html
explains how you can search for the film of your ancestor's voyages and hire from the LDS.
Sarco, thank you for pointing us to this thread, I'm alternating between gratitude and cursing! I'm finally beginning to make some sense of all this but it's all so complicated, I've been dipping between my ancestor's record, the thread you pointed out, the port numbers, TNA guidance, the record that the other thread question referred to etc etc! My head is battered! I felt like this last year when I was trying to understand TNA guidance before my visit there but I must say it became clearer when I actually visited, thanks largely to the staff there. :)
Thanks again, I know I don't sound grateful but I am. ;)
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Poor Roobarb - you and me both!
After reading all that stuff I was tempted to go and do something less taxing... so did about 4 hours of gravestone transcriptions to wind down.
I understand the dates and port codes, but I'm still keen to get the actual vessel names. That's the trouble - give me one thing and I want more! :)
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Me too Churchie! I forsee another visit to TNA this year - if there's a special offer on rail tickets for a tenner from 'up North'! Great place to visit by the way. :)
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Re the LDS films, my GGGGrandfather sailed out from London (port #64) and for each year of London records there are about 20-30 films!!!!, arranged alphabetically for ships name :'(
I know the name of the ship on which he crewed to Australia in 1852 so I've just ordered that one.
If its any help to anyone else (long odds I know), ship rotation number 6740 ex London in 1852 was the Anglesey.
Darryl
Sydney Australia
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Thanks Darryl, there was I feeling sorry for myself but at least I can visit TNA relatively easily! Good luck, I hope you find what you're looking for. :)
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Still working on this wretched business of ships numbers etc.
Found some more info on the IGI; someone has been sorting some of the data by inventorying some of the films thusly:
https://www.familysearch.org/eng/library/fhlcatalog/printing/titledetailsprint.asp?titleno=1501411
There is even a digitised version of the first volume:
https://dcms.lds.org/view/action/ieViewer.do?from_proxy=true&dps_pid=IE58894&dps_dvs=1333316516187~148&dps_pid=IE58894&change_lng=en
Hope someone is fortunate enough to have some interest in these films.
Cheers,
Darryl
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I think I understood the first one .... ::) The second one wouldn't open up. ???
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I've given up in despair. And it's a bit far for me to get there on the train!
If any kind soul ever gets access to the relevant info, this is my man's listing. His name was Raphael Church.
"His earlier ticket for out in 1845 reads S 3006,64,11, 64,1,6 and home in 1846 reads S 3006,64,11 64,18,5"
Back to the grind....
Caroline.
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Yesterday I viewed the 1852 film for voyages of ships registered in London commencing with 'An' and no Anglesey... aaarrrrghhh.
From what I understand the crew manifest and agreement was to be lodged at the ships port of registration upon departure. Not so here it seems so my next option is to get the equivalent 1853 film to see if the Anglesey's return to London was documented.
Either that or the documents were lodged at the actual port of departure, which I think was either Portsmouth or Graves End?
Darryl
Sydney Australia
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I could be wrong here and I'm sure someone will put me right if I am, but I thought the majority of the agreements are at TNA?
All very confusing isn't it? I've found it quite difficult to unpick the information but I'm getting into it all now and rather enjoying the challenge.
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Good luck to those still searching.
I started this thread three years ago and confess that I did not get much further dispite a couple of visits to TNA to look for ships. There are just too many documents.
This discussion may have inspired me to try again
I just wish there was some way we could start putting together some sort of ship index. It will probably come one day - but too late for us now
Lizb
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I could be wrong here and I'm sure someone will put me right if I am, but I thought the majority of the agreements are at TNA?
I do believe that is the case. The film I hired from the SDA is of the documents at your National Archives.
Regards, Darryl
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Oops, sorry Darryl! :-[