RootsChat.Com
General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: technoblond on Wednesday 17 June 09 21:53 BST (UK)
-
Hugh Sumner, my grandfather, was in the Royal Marines in WW1. I have the brass tobacco box issued at Christmas 1914, which contains some medals, and a telegram sent upon his return.
The star has the words DEAL 3100-S- Pte H Sumner. R M.
The war medal has the words Act Corporal H Sumner 3100 S.
Is there any way of finding out his movements during the war, using these numbers?
Before, and after the war, he was a cotton mill worker in Failsworth, Manchester, and I would like to understand how he became a Marine, as I would have expected him to have joined the Manchester regiment in the army.
-
HI..IF YOU GO TO THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES SITE AND ENTER HIS NAME,YOU WILL FIND HIM. HUGH SUMNER,,,,REGISTER NUMBER 3100,,HE WAS IN THE ROYAL MARINES MEDICAL UNIT,HE ENLISTED 15 SEPTEMBER 1914. FOR £3.50 YOU CAN DOWNLOAD THE FILE AND SEE IF THERE IS ANY MORE INFO. TYPICALLY THESE RECORDS SHOW DATE OF BIRTH,PLACE OF BIRTH,OCCUPATION,RELIGION,DATE AND PLACE OF ENLISTMENT,PHYSICAL DESCRIPTION,NAMES OF SHIPS SERVED ON,PLUS DETAILS OF CONDUCT,PROMOTIONS AND MEDAL ENTITLEMENT. HOPE THIS IS OF SOME HELP,,,REGARDS,,,MIKE. http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=8164893&queryType=1&resultcount=1
-
THIS WOULD BE HIM AND FAMILY IN THE 1901 CENSUS LIVING AT 82,WICKENTREE LANE,FAILSWORTH ?? SUMNER,Alfred Head Married M 47 1854 Cotton Under Carder
Manchester
Lancashire
SUMNER, Frances Wife Married F 45 1856
Stockport
Cheshire
SUMNER, Hugh Son Single M 19 1882 Cotton Spinner's Piecer
Miles Platting
Lancashire
SUMNER, Emma Daughter Single F 16 1885 Cotton Cardroom Tenter
Failsworth
Lancashire
SUMNER, Samuel Son Single M 15 1886 Cotton Spenner's Piecer
Failsworth
Lancashire
SUMNER, Edward Son Single M 14 1887 Cotton Mill Errand Boy
Failsworth
Lancashire
SUMNER, William Son Single M 12 1889
Failsworth
Lancashire
SUMNER, Frances Daughter Single F 9 1892
Failsworth
Lancashire
SUMNER, Bertha Daughter Single F 7 1894
Failsworth
Lancashire
-
Hi Gortonboy,
Thank you so much for that info. I have now downloaded and printed the document. It seems that Hugh Sumner was on the 'Crystal Palace' from December 1914 - 1918/19, and in the Special Service Force, 8.3.1915
The document states:-
Embarked Mudros (I have a postcard sent from there) 15.5.16,
Disembarked Marseilles 21.5.16.
Is your knowledge of movements of soldiers very good? Where was he likely to have gone from Marseilles?
He also seems to have forfeited 3 days service, towards G C Badges, the cause being listed as C C (on 10.4.1917) Do you have any idea what C C might stand for, or what G C Badges might mean?
-
HI,,,IT SEEMS THERE IS NO SHIP CALLED THE CRYSTAL PALACE,,HOWEVER THE FAMOUS BUILDING OF THE SAME NAME {BUILT FOR THE GREAT EXHIBITION} WAS USED AS A NAVAL TRAINING ESTABLISHMENT UNDER THE NAME "VICTORY V1",,{INFORMALLY KNOWN AS "HMS CRYSTAL PALACE"}.DURING WW1 MORE THAN 125,000 MEN FROM THE RN DIVISION,RN VOLUNTEERS AND RN AIR FORCE WERE TRAINED FOR WAR THERE. THE REASON FOR BEING EMBARKED AT MUDROS WAS THAT HUGH WOULD HAVE BEEN PART OF THE "GALLIPOLI CAMPAIGN", I AM SURE YOU HAVE HEARD OF THAT. HE WAS THEN TRANSFERED TO MARSEILLE TO TAKE PART IN THE BATTLES IN FLANDERS. I THINK !! MORE RESEARCH INTO HIS UNIT WOULD NEED TO BE DONE. HE FORFIETED 3 DAYS SERVICE TOWARDS HIS "GOOD CONDUCT" BADGE.{G,C} NOT SURE WHAT THE C.C STOOD FOR. WILL TRY AND DO A BIT MORE RESEARCH FOR YOU,,IF I FIND ANYTHING ,,I WILL LET YOU KNOW. REGARDS,,MIKE.
-
http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:9as301TKg0wJ:www.flickr.com/photos/eethompson/2142249205/+MUDROS+WW1&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk
-
The Royal Naval Division at Gallipoli
The Royal Naval Division was selected to play a major part in Churchill's
plan to defeat the German/Turkish alliance by an amphibious attack into
what he called "the soft under-belly of Europe" to seize the entrance to
the Bosphorus at Gallipoli. This was one of the greatest disasters of the
Great War.
The Royal Naval Division started to embark for Lemnos at Devonport on 6 Feb
1915 and by 1 Mar 1915, the rest of the Division (except the training
Depot) were on their way to Lemnos. By 19 Mar 1915 the Division were
stationed off the Gallipoli peninsula, but as the "great Naval attack" on
18 Mar had failed, the Division were returned to Egypt and landed at Port
Said by 29 Mar 1915. The Division re-embarked for Mudros on 8 Apr 1915 and
were landed at Helles Beach, on the Gallipoli Peninsula on 25 Apr 1915. It
was deployed and involved as follows:
25-26 Apr 1915 Gulf of Xeros (RN Division)
25-26 Apr 1915 Landing at Cape Helles (Anson and Plymouth Battalions)
28 Apr-12 May 1915 Defence of Anzac (Chatham, Portsmouth, Nelson and Deal
Battalions)
28 Apr 1915 1st Battle of Krithia (2nd RN Brigade and Drake and
Plymouth Battalions)
1-2 May 1915 Eski Hissarlik (2nd RN Brigade and Drake and Plymouth
Battalions)
6-8 May 1915 2nd Battle of Krithia (Drake, Plymouth, Howe, Hood and
Anson Battalions)
2 May 1915 The Chessboard (Nelson, Deal, Chatham and Portsmouth
Battalions)
4 Jun 1915 3rd Battle of Krithia (RN Division)
7-9 Jan 1916 Evacuation of Helles (RN Division).
Recovery from Gallipoli
With the withdrawal of British forces from the Dardanelles in early Jan
1916, The Royal Naval Division was evacuated to Mudros and split up. Drake
and Hawke Battalions went to Imbros between 19 Jan and 15 Feb 1916; Hood
Battalion to Mudros between 20 Jan and 22 Feb 1916. The 2nd Brigade went to
Stavros on 20 Jan 1916. The Division did not reform until arriving back in
France in May 1916. During this period, the Royal Naval Division was
transferred from the Admiralty to the War Office control. (Authority:
79/8954 (SD2) dated 29 Apr 1916).
Transfer to the Army and to France and Flanders
The Battalions landed in France at Marseilles as follows: Howe 12 May, 2nd
RM 12 May: Anson 19 May; 1st RM 19 May; Hood 20 May; Nelson 22 May; and
Hawke 23 May 1916. In France the Royal Naval Division was formally numbered
the 63rd (Royal Naval) Division and the Brigades were numbered the 188th,
189th and 190th. (Authority ACI No 1363 dated 8 Jul 1916). Owing to the
fearful losses suffered in Nov 1916, several Army battalions were attached
to the Division from time to time. The 63rd (Royal Naval) Division
remained in France and Flanders for the rest of the war and fought in the
following battles:
Dates Battle Parent Formation
13-18 Nov 1916 Somme V Corps, 5th Army
13-15 Nov 1916 Ancre V Corps, 5th Army
20 Jan - 27 Feb 1917 Operations on the Ancre II Corps, 5th Army
17/18 Feb 1917 Miraumont II Corps, 5th Army
23-29 Apr 1917 Arras XIII Corps, 5 Army
23/24 Apr 1917 2nd Scarpe XIII Corps, 5 Army
28/29 Apr 1917 Arleux XIII Corps, 5 Army
26 Oct - 10 Nov 1917 3rd Ypres XVIII Corps, 5th Army
26 Oct - 5 Nov 1917 2nd Passchendaele XVIII Corps, 5th Army
30/31 Dec 1917 Welch Ridge V Corps, 3rd Army
21 Mar - 5 Apr 1918 1st Somme V Corps, 3rd Army
21-23 Mar 1918 St Quentin V Corps, 3rd Army
24/25 Mar 1918 1st Bapaume V Corps, 3rd Army
5 Apr 1918 Ancre V Corps, 3rd Army
8-23 Aug 1918 2nd Somme IV Corps, 3rd Army
21-23 Aug 1918 Albert IV Corps, 3rd Army
26 Aug - 3 Sept 1918 2nd Arras XVII Corps, 3rd Army
2/3 Sept 1918 Droucourt-Queant Line XVII Corps, 3rd Army
27 Sept - 8 Oct 1918 Hindenburg Line XVII Corps, 3rd Army
27 Sept - 1 Oct 1918 Canal du Nord XVII Corps, 3rd Army
8 Oct 1918 Capture of Niergnies, Cambrai XVII Corps, 3rd Army
7-11 Nov 1918 Advance in Picardy XXII Corps, 1st Army
7 Nov 1918 Grande Honnelle XXII Corps, 1st Army
-
HI,,IT SEEMS THERE ARE A LOT OF RECORDS FOR THE RN DIVISION WHICH FROM LOOKING AT THE PLACES AND DATES, YOUR GRANDAD WAS A PART OF. IF WE COULD FIND OUT WHICH UNIT YOUR GDAD WAS IN,,I THINK YOU COULD FIND OUT QUITE A LOT. HOWEVER,I AM JUST AN ENTHUSIASTIC AMATEUR !! I LIKE HELPING OUT IF I CAN COZ I WORK NIGHTS,AND HAVE A PC AND A LOT OF TIME ON MY HANDS !! YOU COULD TRY POSTING THE DETAILS YOU HAVE ON OTHER SITES,,,THERE ARE MANY SITES DEDICATED TO WW1 AND ROYAL MARINES ETC. MAYBE YOU COULD POST THE DOWNLOAD YOU GOT ON HERE,AND EVEN THE CARD YOU WERE SENT BY YOUR GDAD. THEY MAY CONTAIN INFO YOU HAVENT THOUGHT MAY BE USEFUL. WHAT MEDALS WAS HE AWARDED ? THAT ALSO GIVES CLUES. GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR RESEARCH. I WILL KEEP TRYING ON YOUR BEHALF. REGARDS,,,MIKE.
-
http://collections.iwm.org.uk/server/show/ConWebDoc.994/viewPage/5/outputRegister/lowhtml
-
THIS MAY BE AN EASIER SITE TO READ REGARDING THE MOVEMENTS OF THE 63RD NAVAL DIVISION,,IT MENTIONS THE GALLIPOLI CAMPAIGN AND THE TRANSFER TO MARSEILLE, http://www.1914-1918.net/63div.htm
-
Thank you Mike, for all the info.
I shall try to post a copy of the postcard from Mudros. It was sent to my father,(who was born Dec 1912) when he was about 3 yrs old. It is dated Tues Feb 1st, 1916, but only written in pencil, so difficult to read, but doesn't contain anything other than things a father would say to a three-year-old.
There is also a birthday 'card'..it is not card, it is a thin metal, and wishes my father a Happy Birthday. I'm not sure where Hugh posted that from.
More interesting, is a pencil drawing cartoon character, with the caption "Off to Blighty tomorrow" sketched somewhere in France be Charles C......London. I will post a copy of this too.I wondered if it was a caricature of Hugh. I don't remember what he looked like as he died in 1944, when I was under 2 years old, but I have a family photograph of him in uniform.
-
Hi Gortonboy
Have attached some things but the other files are too large. I shall have to work on them tomorrow - see if I can scale them down so that they will attach. Regards Jill
-
There is a memorial to the Royal Naval Division, now back in its place on Horse Guards Parade, London [near the old Admiralty building, by the exit where the King's Troop RHA, Guards etc march off from the Queens's Birthday Parade].
-
hi,,,sorry,,,cant read his service card even when i magnify it !!!! i wouldnt mind knowing everything written on it,,then i could have another look for you using some of the dates as a guide....also some of the abbreviations on the card may give a clue to his unit etc. if you have the time you could transcribe everything written on the card,and post it. tedious i know,,but would be of help to those trying to help you. regards,,,mike,
-
about the photo you have of hugh in uniform,,,,can you post that,,,there are experts who could tell you what unit he was in,,if they can identify any cap badges or other such things. if you can see any markings on the uniform,,try and magnify them and post them,,,,i am sure that would be a great help in identifying exactly which rn division he was in,,,
-
Hi Mike
Have just rescanned all the other things, including photo of tobacco box and medals, but can't get them under 500 kb. They are j peg images, but, as you can tell by my name, I'm not the sharpest knife in the box when it comes to technology!!!!! I'll keep trying.
Transcription:- Name Hugh Sumner Register No 3100 Division R L? M C???? RCA
Date of birth 19th May 1881
Where born Ancoats Lancs
Religeon C of E
When enlisted 15th December 1914
Where enlisted Manchester
Age on enlistment 33-6-26
on enlistment as private Stature 5'61/2 eyes brown hair dark
Rank Name of division or ship Entry Discharge Cause of discharge from division or ship
Pte Crystal Palace 15 Dec 14 31 dec 14
" 1 Jan 15 31 dec 15
" 1 jan 16 31 dec 16
" 1 jan 17 31 dec 17
" 1 jan 18 28 mar 18 promoted
L/cpl 28 mar 18 6 may 18
A/cpl 7 may 18
Special Service Force 8/3/15
Wife Emma 40 Church Street, Failsworth Manchester
De mob 19th Feb 1919 40 Church St Failsworth Manchester
Services forfeited
Towards G C badges
Cause CC, Date 10.4.17 Days 3
Promotions and reductions
A/ L/cpl 28.3.18 A /cpl 7.5.18
-
I've cropped the medals photo too. Regards Jill
-
I have also cropped the postcard from Mudros, back and front. I notice that it was written on Tues Feb 1st 1916. I think that I read, on one of the sites that you recommended, that the Hood embarked at that time. Regards Jill
-
hi,,,sorry to be a pain...but if you could show the medals and badges in close up,,,especially the badges,,i bet someone could help identify which regiment or unit they were from.im gonna blow them up on my computer and try and research them,,,but as i have said,,,im only an enthusiastic amateur !!! i will have more time to research next week when im back on nights... mike
-
http://www.britishmedals.info/1914_star.html
-
this is the royal marine brigade badge,,,it looks very similar to one of yours ??/
-
http://www.britishmedals.info/victory_medal.html
-
Hugh's badge is the same. except that it does not have the horn? (banana shaped piece), or the crown on the top. It just has the same round centre and the leaves on both sides.
-
Hi
I asked a RM expert if he had any info to help you out.
Heres his reply. :)
"His papers are at FAAM Yeovilton. ADM/159 is online, but will give very little.
Special Service 1915 may refer to attachment to Plymouth or Chatham Batts. 6/2/15. They went out first, before the other RND units to Gallipoli."
Royal Marines (R.N.D. Medical Unit)
Deal/3100/S Acting Corporal Hugh SUMNER
1914-15 Star, Victory & British War Medals Self
Demobilised.
The FAAM Archives are excellent you can find contact details online.
You have the ADM 159 details. His full record will be at FAAM.
Ady
-
hello again,,,i am back in work tonight and would like to carry on searching for some other snippetts.....it would be great if you could take some photos in close up of the badges/medals on the right of your original photo... we know the medals on the left are his war medals,,,maybe the other ones on the right/top rght can give us more clues. regards,,mike,
-
Will take the photos tomorrow. My camera is at my daughter's house, so I'll need to get it back.
Thanks for all the info you've dug up
Regards
-
it seems some records are held by the fleet air arm,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
ROYAL NAVAL DIVISION RECORD CARDS
The originals of the RND Record Cards and the ADM399 microfiche are now held in the FAAM archive. A digitised microfiche version is still available in the National Archives at Kew, under ADM339, and this is also available on-line. However, this version contains numerous filing errors and some cards have not been copied correctly. It should also be noted that original RND Record Cards for the Divisional Engineers, Divisional Train, RM Medical Unit and Ordnance Company held at the FAAM are not available in any form in the National Archives.
Those who wish to examine papers should contact:-
Centre for Naval Aviation Records & Research
Fleet Air Arm Museum
RNAS Yeovilton
Near Ilchester, Somerset
BA22 8HT
Tel: +44 (0) 1935 840565, selecting 2 for research.
Fax: +44 (0) 1935 842630
E-mail: research@fleetairarm.com
-
I've cropped the medals photo too. Regards Jill
The third item from the left is not a medal ... I suspect that it is a brooch made from a 'collar dog' (the collar badge) of a Royal Marine.
Joe