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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Glamorganshire => Topic started by: KXL1973 on Monday 15 June 09 12:43 BST (UK)
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Hi All
Was wondering if someone could point me in the right direction please?!
My husbands great grandmother, Doris Williams, was orphaned, along with her sister Vida. I think Doris was born in 1901, she married William Fraser in 1924 in Swansea.
I know that the family has never strayed far from Morriston, Mumbles and surrounding area's
According to my mother in law, Doris was brought up in an orphanage 'somewhere in Swansea', which is not very helpful. Nazareth house has been mentioned but I'm not sure if that was the name back in the early 1900's or if that's the name now?
Mother in law is very vague and seems to say different things everytime I broach the subject. ::)
Sadly there is no-one else left in the family that would know anymore.
Any names of Swansea and surrounding area orphanages would be a great help please so I could start a search somewhere!!
Thank you in advance for any info you can give
KXL
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Hi KXL
Welcome to Rootschat! :)
Have you tried to locate Doris on the 1911 census yet? Although you might have trouble finding out the name of the institution (I think this is being withheld until the 100 years is up) at least it would give you a clue.
I hope others might have some ideas of which institutions were around at the time.
Kind regards, Arranroots ;)
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Do you knw (perhaps from her marriage ) if Doris and Vida had middlenames?
There are several Doris births in the Swansea reg distr, and also several Vida's.
But I did notice these two births in Gower reg distr and just wondered if they might be the sisters
Jul/Aug/Sep 1901 Doris Edith
Ap/May/Jun 1897 Vida May
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Jul/Aug/Sep 1901 Doris Edith
This looks good, as she was Doris E. Williams upon marriage to William J. Fraser in Swansea, Mar qtr 1924 11a 1459. (Mind you, there seem to be a lot of Doris E____ Williams born at around the right time!)
Anna :)
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IF they are the girls births, then this COULD be Vida in 1901
LLangninke
David H 28 Tin worker
Mary H 25
Vida 4 all bn Ystalynferna
now my Welsh knowledge is not up to a lot, so I cant say if Ystalynferna is on Gower or not.
I was hoping the middle initilas here would help , but sadly I cant find deaths of Mary H or David H Williams on Pontadawe reg distr in the next 10 yrs or so, or even Gower or Swansea.
Naturally there are loads of plain David or MAry Williams.
So sorry, my detective work has not helped indicate if this is the family or not!
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For what it's worth, a free index search of the 1911 census yields only one household containing both a Doris Williams and a Vida Williams.
Occupants of this household (which is in Abergavenny) appear to include:
William Charles WILLIAMS 38
Alice M WILLIAMS 38 b Abergavenny
Doris WILLIAMS 11 b Abergavenny
Vida WILLIAMS 10 b Abergavenny
As always full details can only be obtained (and the above confirmed) by downloading the household schedule or a transcription of it from the pay site www.1911census.co.uk. However, this household could be a complete red herring.
Is there any information from the family as to Vida's likely birthdate?
Anna :)
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I was hoping the middle initilas here would help , but sadly I cant find deaths of Mary H or David H Williams on Pontadawe reg distr in the next 10 yrs or so, or even Gower or Swansea.
These people are still in Pontardawe in 1911, Vida still with them but no sign of a Doris.
Anna
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Well found Anna - that rules them out .
It was only a vague theory and it helps that they can be ruled out.
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Well found Anna - that rules them out .
It was only a vague theory and it helps that they can be ruled out.
I'm not sure it necessarily rules them out! The girls could have been orphaned after 1911 (unless the OP has information to the contrary) & if there was a Doris in the Pontardawe family she might have been away visiting elsewhere on 1911 census night.
Anna :)
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Thank you for the warm welcome and replies, I wasn't expecting anyone to search for me! :)
I also saw the Pontardawe family and wondered if it could be the same. There is a death of a Mary Williams, aged 25, Pontardawe in Dec 1902, also a baby called Mary. Possibly if it is the same family she died in childbirth?? Gosh, I'm clutching at straws now! lol
I'm thinking the Abergavenny family but be a bit too out of the Swansea area, but will not rule it out just yet!
The Gower Doris & Vida does sound promising though, will have a look myself and see if I can find anymore out.
In the research for my own family I have come across many different name spellings, age differences and also slightly different places of birth, though all in the same area. I guess this one could be a guessing game!
Totally shocked at husband's families lack of knowledge tho, which reminds me I need to make a post in the Bristol area too! lol
THanks again for your help and if anyone comes across anything please let me know!
KXL
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I also saw the Pontardawe family and wondered if it could be the same. There is a death of a Mary Williams, aged 25, Pontardawe in Dec 1902, also a baby called Mary. Possibly if it is the same family she died in childbirth?? Gosh, I'm clutching at straws now! lol
Hi again - this isn't the death of the Mary H. Williams whom lizdb found in 1901, because Mary H. Williams was still alive in 1911 (see my reply #6 above).
Do you know anything at all about Vida (likely birthdate, or even whether older or younger than Doris - and/or whom she married (if anyone) - and/or where & when she died/surname at death)? Any of this could help to lead us to the "right" Vida in the censuses, which in turn might lead us to Doris!
Anna :)
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Hi Anna
I'm told that Vida married a 'Jones'...don't laugh! Needle in haystack comes to mind
I've found a marriage in Dec 1919 where a Vida M Williams married a Henry J Jones in Swansea, this of course could be the Vida May Williams of the Gower born Vida & Doris.
That is all I have to go on I'm afraid, as I said the inlaws aren't very forthcoming with info, my theory is there are skeletons in closets... ;D
kelly
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OK then - here's a possible death for Doris which fits in nicely (as to given names and birthdate) with the Gower birth:
Doris Edith FRASER
Born Aug 1901
Death registered Sep 1989
Swansea 27 2086
Does this fit with what you know?
Anna :)
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Having looked at this further, I now think that the Pontardawe/Ystalyfera/Llangnicke family of David H, Mary H and Vida Williams (from 1901/1911) is likely to be a red herring.
Their daughter Vida is likely to be this one (as to birth reg):
Vida WILLIAMS Jun qtr 1897 Pontardawe 11a 918
as opposed to the Gower registration of Vida May WILLIAMS in the same quarter.
So - where was Vida May WILLIAMS in 1901 ???
Anna
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Hi KXL and welcome to Rootschat :)
The orphanage bit caught my eye because some very helpful people on this website helped me find information on my grandmother. Like you I just had info that she had been in an orphanage somewhere in Swansea.
Anyway, around 1900 my grandmother was in the 'Industrial Home for Orphan Girls, Northampton Lane, Swansea.' Maybe your ggrandmother was here also?
Fue
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Anna, have asked hubby if he knows when Doris died and he says can't remember. He would have been 11 in 1989 and says that's about right! He has some memories of her and I have seen picture of him as a child with her so I think you have probably hit the jackpot!! Thank you :)
I'm really thinking that Vida & Doris are the Gower born pair now, it would make sense. Still doesn't explain why Vida is not on the 1901 census! I guess they must have been out! lol
Fue, thank you for the orphanage info, somewhere to start!
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It does seem this is beginnig to get somewhere.
Evidence so far does seem to indicate that the Gower birth for Doris Edith is looking like a likely birth.
That means that Doris's mother was pregnant with her at the time of the 1901 census, and IF the Vida MAy birth in Gower is her sister, then she should be somewhere in 1901.
And I agree that the Pontadawe couple with young Vida are a red herring (sorry, folks, it was me that introduced them as a possibility)
Personally my next move would be to get the Doris Edith in Gower birth cert. That will give her parents names and hopefully lead to finding this family in 1901, and then maybe to the parents deaths.
An alternative option would be to get her marriage cert to Mr Fraser, on the basis that there is probably more certainty that this is her, and see what that gives about father. Of course, if her natural father dies when she was very young and she never knew him, the information she gives about him on her marriage cert if any might not be reliable.
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I agree wholeheartedly with what lizdb says about the need for one or more certificates to take this further.
In the meantime, here's something from the 1901 Wales census which might be worth keeping a note of:
10, New Chapel St, Oystermouth, Glamorgan [in Gower RD]
RG13/5083/46/44
David WILLIAMS Head M 47 Dock labourer Oystermouth
Jane do Wife M 36 Oystermouth
Viola* do Daur 4 Oystermouth
*This is my reading of the name from the enumerator's schedule. However, FreeBMD shows no Viola (as first or middle name) WILLIAMS being registered at birth in Gower RD for the relevant period. So I wonder whether the household schedule might in fact have said Vida...?
Anna :)
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I'm going to have to buy the certificates for definate proof but Anna, thanks to your searching I think they have been found! I too checked the 1901 census with just V Williams thinking the name might have been spelt wrong but couldn't find anything. You are a super sleuth ;D
I took a look at the info you found and on ancestry is shows the name as Vala, not a name I have ever heard of. Checking the document there is definately an i in there so as you say it could be Viola or indeed Vida!
I've also checked the freeBMD for deaths between 1901 and 1911 and in 1903 there is a death of a Jane Williams in Gower aged 37 and the death of David Williams aged 52 in Gower in 1904. Which going by their ages in 1901 would be about right....... :)
Checked marriages too, and there is a marriage in Dec 1890 between David Williams and Jane Thomas. Checked births for Jane Thomas and there is one in Gower in 1865, which would also tie in with the age on 1901 census....
I hope I am not getting ahead of myself with excitement! lol
kelly
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In case they are the right people, David and Jane are already married (and in Newton, Oystermouth) by the time of the 1891 census: RG12/4488/36/5.
With them, helpfully, is a "brother-in-law" William Thomas, 17 b Oystermouth - providing a rather helpful clue to Jane's maiden name...
Sure enough:
Marriage Dec qtr 1890
Jane THOMAS
David WILLIAMS
on same page: Gower 11a 1681
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They must be one and the same.
I guess there is no knowing for sure until I get the certificates, but that's a brilliant start.
I also looked on ancestry at the 1891 census, took me a while as the surname is stated as William not Williams! Found it via the brother in law.
Thank you so much for your help, I wouldn't have got this far without it!
I'm going to order the certificates today so will let you know what they say!
Kelly
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Hope the certificates come quickly!
For the future, the way to sidestep mistranscriptions in a particular provider's index is simply to use the full census reference with no names. That is why experienced Rootschatters will always give you the full reference on a lookup (e.g. RG12/[piece]4488/[folio]36/[page]5 for that 1891 family I gave you).
Obviously you can't do this when searching speculatively. Thank goodness for wildcards!
Anna :)
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Hi All
Have the certificates! birth certificate shows parents as David Williams & Jane Thomas & marriage certificate shows father as David Williams also. So the 1901 census with the mispelling of Vida was indeed spot on! :)
What's making me giggle (on Doris' marriage certificate) as somehow from being a labourer on 1901 census & Doris' birth certificate, David Williams has somehow managed to have trained as a Master Baker in the 3 yrs before his death in 1904?? Maybe a little white lie on Doris' part to make her father seem grander as her husband's father was a 'locomotive engine driver'!
Thank you so much again for your help
Kelly
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I see you mentioned Nazareth House - this is a place my mother always threatened to send me to when I was naughty - since I am only 30 at the moment, and this was about 20 years ago, I'm not sure if it's still around.
From memory, it was in the Cardiff area, and was run by nuns - I think it was an orphanage.
I should also point out that I think it may have been run by Roman Catholic nuns, so that may narrow it down further for you
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The Swansea branch of Nazareth House is on Clyne Common and became a care home in the 1950s. There was also Killay House in Gower Road from 1929 which provided a new site for
Swansea Orphan Home for Girls. This home was around from the 1860s so could be a candidate for your orphanage. Can't find any reference to the records - possibly at West Glam Archives in Swansea?
http://www.swansea.gov.uk/index.cfm?articleid=406/
or could be with the NCH as they took over Killay House?
http://www.theirhistory.co.uk/70001/info.php?p=9
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I remember" Cottage Homes" in Cocket, Swansea. Were they orphanages?
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they were part of the workhouse and the records are in the archives in Swansea
www.swansea.gov.uk/media/pdf/8/3/Poor_Law_Union_records.pdf
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Hi,
Nazareth House, Swansea remained taking in children until the late 60's, early 70's. Mainly boys. Girls were normally sent to Nazareth House, Cardiff.
There was also the 'Good Shepherd' Home also on Clyne Common which may be worth a mention.
There was also St Joseph's Convent, Clydach which took in girls, again run by nuns.
Bye
RR
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Hi KXL1973
I have just been searching for my aunt in the 1911 census. I think I found her at the Girls Orphan and friendless
Home Swansea (enumeration district 8)
She was Alice John female aged 14 born Swansea
Beneath her name was Williams Vida
female aged 14 born Swansea Mumbles
further down I found
Williams Doris female aged 9 born Glamorgan Mumbles.
These have got to be those you are looking for. I hope this has been of help to you 2829
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Hiya, I knew of a Wiliams family in ST THOMAS Swansea most of them now deceaced ..but they still have children etc, living nearby. Please pm me for more details if you would like to know if they could be linked to your Williams family perhaps? best wishes Diane.
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I remember" Cottage Homes" in Cocket, Swansea. Were they orphanages?
Hi ,
they were for pauper , destitute children , which would include orphans too.
Many of the children in cottage homes their parents were in swansea workhouse.
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/cottagehomes/
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/education/
My husband's g grandfather was born in Swansea workhouse, his mum was an unmarried mother .
Whilst his gg grandmother stayed in Swansea workhouse giving birth to her son there , her young daughter,Louisa who was only 4 at the time resided at their cottage homes.
It must have been quite frightening for the poor 4 yr girl to be separated from her mum. Her and her daughter ( and new baby) got out the same year .
Kind regards
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Gosh I completely forgot about this post ::)
I indeed eventually find Doris & Vida in the 1911 census at the home for orphaned and friendless girls. Doesn't that sound so sad :'(
At least I know Doris went on to have a husband & 3 children, and since last posting I've had her great great grandson :) So alls well that ends well
Thanks again for all your advice!
KXL
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congratulations on the new addition!
;D
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I'm new to this website but I was a boy resident at St Joseph's Convent in Clydach in 1970 and it was run by nuns. I eventually lived in the North Cornelly and Kenfig Hill areas and went to school at St Joseph's in Port Talbot of which several were day scholars at St Joseph's Convent in Clydach I already knew. Names I can remember include Billy Lindsay, Paul Idsey, Yan Mannorick, Carl and Stuart Davies, plus many other faces I can remember. Sorry if I haven't spelt the surnames correctly but they are phonetically correct.