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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Renfrewshire => Topic started by: irene_kipyahoo.co on Saturday 13 June 09 20:45 BST (UK)
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Does anyone know how I could find records of Catholic burials in Barrhead prior to the opening of St Conval's cemetery in 1933.
I realise they may be in the old St John's Church Graveyard but how could I find out?
Irene
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I have checked with Barrhead Library and there are no Catholic records for the old St John's Burial ground held at the library. The library advised the original records held by St John's Church from the period 1841 to 1941 were destroyed in the fire which destroyed the original church.
The national catholic archives at Edinburgh seems to have the parish register for St John's http://www.scottishcatholicarchives.org.uk/Family%20History/Parish%20Registers/tabid/82/Default.aspx
Reference MP/73 - I am not sure, however, whether they would be in Edinburgh or Glasgow as the Diocese of Glasgow holds its own records and Barrhead has been listed under the Glasgow diocese on the link.
There are very few readable grave stones in the old St John's graveyard - the names which are readable are Queen/Lochrie, Small, Lynch, McGinnis, Foyer/Campbell, Watters, McDermott.
Regards
Murphyz
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Thank you
Been away - appreciate your info.
What happened to 'hallowed' ground when Columba Club was built on grounds? Shocking I think.
Irene
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Irene
I am not sure how many graves would have been moved when the Columba Club was built - perhaps some one at St Conval's would know. There are still a few (very few) readable stones in the old church grounds, next to the Columba Club car park - but the grounds are not well maintained.
When they moved the gravestones from the Old White Wash Kirk (now the Sports Centre car park), they were supposed to be interred in Neilston cemetery, but to be honest, I have struggled to find any of those stones in Neilston.
If you wish a note of the readable stones in the Old St Johns, I can go up and note the names and dates for you.
Regards
Z
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Thanks for info and offer to get names from Headstones.
I live in Barrhead so will take a wee trip up myself.
I hate the thought of such sacred ground next to a pub!
Kind Regards
Irene
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Hello there
I have just posted a message concerning St Johns graveyard I have been there and was concerned about the graves there I know for sure my gt.granparents are buried there Riddell is the name last time I was there the stone was still standing, but I believe my gt.gt grandparents are there to under columba club, there are some records concerning burials baptisms they are in Edinburgh at Scotlands People I think they are to go online soon.
Jen.
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The Riddell gravestone is still standing in the Old St John's Churchyard, although it is very worn in places, making parts near impossible to read.
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Hi there
Many thanks for that its nice to know its still standing, will take a trip over to Barrhead and take a photograph of the headstone before it goes, Thanks once again.
Jen.
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Hi there
I read with great interest that the name McDermott is one of the readable gravestones. I am sure that this may be my ancestor i.e. grt grandad. I live in Australia and dont have any other siblings etc. Do you think I would be able to get a photo or something of the gravestone itself if I contact the Church itself - I have been looking for ages but dont seem to be getting anywhere and when I saw your post I got so excited. Any further help you could give me would be greatly appreciated as both my mum and dad are now deceased too so I feel as if I am hitting my head against a brick wall. Thanks for your help. Much appreciated. Carol
I have checked with Barrhead Library and there are no Catholic records for the old St John's Burial ground held at the library. The library advised the original records held by St John's Church from the period 1841 to 1941 were destroyed in the fire which destroyed the original church.
The national catholic archives at Edinburgh seems to have the parish register for St John's http://www.scottishcatholicarchives.org.uk/Family%20History/Parish%20Registers/tabid/82/Default.aspx
Reference MP/73 - I am not sure, however, whether they would be in Edinburgh or Glasgow as the Diocese of Glasgow holds its own records and Barrhead has been listed under the Glasgow diocese on the link.
There are very few readable grave stones in the old St John's graveyard - the names which are readable are Queen/Lochrie, Small, Lynch, McGinnis, Foyer/Campbell, Watters, McDermott.
Regards
Murphyz
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Hi there
I read with great interest that the name McDermott is one of the readable gravestones. I am sure that this may be my ancestor i.e. grt grandad. I live in Australia and dont have any other siblings etc. Do you think I would be able to get a photo or something of the gravestone itself if I contact the Church itself - I have been looking for ages but dont seem to be getting anywhere and when I saw your post I got so excited. Any further help you could give me would be greatly appreciated as both my mum and dad are now deceased too so I feel as if I am hitting my head against a brick wall. Thanks for your help. Much appreciated. Carol
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I will go up to the old graveyard over the weekend and take a photo - when I get back home, I will also check if I have noted down what's on the gravestone - at least then you will know whether it is one of yours or not.
Regards
Murphyz
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I am sooooo grateful for you doing that. Thank you so much. I really do appreciate it. I am keeping my fingers and toes crossed that it is an ancestor as I need all the help I can get.
Thank you once again.
Carol x
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That's great news Carol and very kind of you MuphyZ :)
I'm keeping my fingers crossed too that there is something there on your McDermotts.
Monica
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Hi there - I have some scribbled notes from the old st John's churchyard but I don't think the readable McDermott stone is the one you are looking for. I will still go up at the weekend and have another look, but this is the information on the stone:-
In
Memory of
John McDermott
who died 19th Dec 1901
Aged 70 years
His beloved wife
Sarah Jane
who died 2nd June 1902
Aged 69 years
Also their daughter
Sarah
who died 24th June 1864
aged 9 years
Their daughter-in-law
Teresa
who died 21st Oct 1892
Aged 20 years
Their granddaughter
Sarah
who died 19th May 1893
Aged 7 months
John James McDermott
who died 31st July 190?
Aged 39 years
I am in Barrhead, so if you have any information I can check out the library or have a wander around Neilston cemetery.
On Scotlands People there is a death in Barrhead of a Thomas McDermott aged 56 in 1914 and another Thomas aged 0 in 1902. Do either of these tie in with the information you have? The only marriage I can see on SP of of Thomas McDermott to Patricia Stevenson is in Paisley in 1962, which is not available on line .
Regards
Z
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Sorry me again - just in case it is part of the wider family - there is at least one McDermott headstone in Neilston cemetery for a John McDermott, married to a Jane Dundas, their daughter Jane McDermott and their son Bernard McDermott.
Jane Dundas date of death 5th April 1892 aged 55 years. John died 1st Jan 1896 aged 69 years.
Regards
Z
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Hi Murphyz
Youre a star. That headstone in Neilston Cemetery matches with information I have about John McDermott and Jane Dundas - though was unaware of their son Bernard McDermott. Would there be any way I could get an extract of the death/birth certificates for them and where would I start looking for information about the son Bernard? Sorry not sure how to go about all of this but I am so grateful for the information you have provided. Thanks a lot.
Hmm not sure about the headstone for Thomas McDermott though nothing rings a bell there but I will keep looking as one of my cousins in Spain has other information so I can see what she has. Also the marriage of Thomas McDermott to a Patricia Stevenson in 1962 was my mum and dad but I dont have any certificate or anything for them and they have both passed away. Could I get an extract of this then from somewhere as you say its not available online? I dont even know where they got married. Although Patricia Stevenson still has living relatives in Barrhead (bottom end) I think from recollection but they dont keep in touch or anything.
It is really good of you to help me in this way. As I stay in Australia I dont get over to UK much and as I dont have any siblings its harder to get any information. Thanks again, youve been great.
Tha
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Hello Z
If you are going to St.Johns graveyard is there any possibility that you could read the headstone of John Riddell I have mislaid a date I had, I do wish I could find out what happened to the headstones that were there before the Columba club was built. Any idea/ thankyou.
Jen.
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re Riddell - yip no problem I will go up at the weekend, although if I recall correctly, there are parts of the Riddell stone which are unreadable, but hopefully it will be sunny and I will take some photos.
re the McDermott stone in Neilston cemetery, I have a complete note at home of what's on the stone, so I will get those details for you.
Cheers
Z
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The McDermott gravestone in Neilston cemetery says the following:-
Erected
By
John McDermott
in memory of his wife
Jane Dundas
who died 5th April 1892 aged 55 years
His daughter Jane McDermott
who died 16th August 1891, aged 19 years
Bernard McDermott
Son of Above
Died 26th January 1926, aged 57 years
Daniel Fagan
Beloved husband of
Mary McDermott
died 3rd June 1926 aged 59 years
The Above Mary McDermott
Died 26th January 1928 aged 68 years
Mary Gallagher
wife of Bernard McDermott
died 2nd Jan 1935
The above John McDermott
died 1st (?) Jan 1896 aged 59 years
Annie Fagan
died 27th Nov 1945 aged 41 years
When I get a chance I will go for a wander around Neilston cemetery to see if there are any other McDermott stones. With regards to other searches, hopefully a kind person on this site will be able to point you in the right direction - I just happen to live Barrhead and am happy to go and wander about!
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Hi Carol,
I would have thought you would be able to order a copy of your parents marriage certificate from the GROS in Edinburgh. If you go onto the Scotlands People website you could probably order a copy through SP. It is too recent to view the marriage on line but think you should be able to order a copy. Check your own birth cert and see if your parents marriage is recorded on that.
Cheers
Liz
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I will need to go back up to Neilston to double check the bottom inscription. I have been on Scotlands People, and they have 58 years on John McDermott's death certificate on 5th (not 1st as I thought) January 1896.
From SP -
John McDermott, lime work labourer, widower of Jane Dundas died 5th January 1896 aged 58 years at 55 Craighead Street, Barrhead. Parents listed as Bernard McDermott, turnpike surfaceman (deceased) and Annie McDermott, nee McKee (deceased). Death informed by Bernard McDermott.
The original photo I took of the stone is too large a file to load, but I could send you if you wish, as it would allow you to enhance the image.
Regards
Z
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HI Murphyz
Thank you so much for that. It is looking as if it is line with what information I have. I would very very grateful if you could upload the photo to me. It would mean a great deal. Also when you are up in Neilston can you have a look for a Thomas McDermott married to a Helen or Helena Murphy as these are my grandparents. Helena Murphy died when I was about four so approximately 1967/68. They both had five kids, Thomas jnr (my dad), Joe (who has changed his last name to McDiarmid). Jim, Robert and Dennis but really thats all the info I have. I have no other information for Helena Murphy though I vaguely remember her getting in tow with a Hugh Mitchell but that might have just been hearsay.
I cant thank you enough. Take care. Carol
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Hi Carol and MurphyZ
Looks like you are making lots of headway here with MurphyZ's help :)
If you want to research back on Helena's line, you could have a look at her marriage certificate which will include full details on her parents. With that you can work back to their marriage and try and and flesh out the family. Hopefully, they will be Scottish births/marriage (rather than Irish) and you should be able to find details on Scotlands People.
The marriage for Helena and Thomas shows as: Helena Murphy and Thomas McDerm*t (I used a wildcard for the spelling) in 1930 in Neilston, Renfrewshire. This marriage is within the timescales to view on line at SP.
Monica :)
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Re the stones which were in the old st john's churchyard - I have been to Barrhead library and they believe any graves which would have been disturbed by the building of the Columba Club were re-interrred, as it was sacred ground. Old photos of the original church show graves in what would now be the car park.
The library thinks the graves affected were re-interred to St Convals,Barrhead. If some one knows this isn't right, let me know and I will try and go through old copies of the Barrhead News to see if it was mentioned when the church burnt down.
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Hello Z
Many thanks for that it has been a great help especially that elusive date. I will go through info I have and see what I could post. I am also trying to see if there are still Riddells in Barrhead. I will send a pm to you.
Thankyou
Jen.
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I am interested in the McDermott grave at Neilson Cemetary. I believe John McDermott and Sarah-Jane Dundas are my great-grandparents.
I have information on their marriage and their roots in Ireland.
The main information I have for their wedding is as follows:
Wedding in St. John's Chapel in Barrhead on 8/6/1855 of
John Dermod of Printer's Row Barrhead. Age 26, Labourer. Born 1829 in the Townland of Brollagh, County Fermanah, Ireland. Parents Bernard Dermod, Labourer and Leonora Farry, Housekeeper.
And
Jane Dundas of Printer's Row Barrhead. Age 20. Born 1835 in the Townland of Derry Gonnell, County Fermanah, Ireland. Parents James Dundas, Deceased, Labourer and Jane Dundas MS Mooney, Housekeeper.
Signed John Sheedy R.C. Clergyman.
Witnesses Peter Currie and Elizabeth Dundas.
The Bride and Groom were both illiterate so they signed their certificate with crosses, as did the witnesses.
The name "Dermod" in the marriage lines is obviously a mistake, but later census returns refer to the couple as "McDermott".
I was familiar with the McDermott/Dundas grave in the old St. John's graveyard but the dates did not correspond with the information I have from census returns and death certificates.
If the grave in Nielson Churchyard proves to be their grave, then I wonder who is buried in the graveyard at the old St. John's Chapel? There are no written records of the burials in this yard. I have tried various sources but I have been assured that no records remain.
I only found out about the Nielson grave yesterday, so this has been very exciting news for me! I hope my information is useful to the forum.
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I have been on Scotlands People and the Sarah Jane McDermott who died 2nd June 1902 was the widow of John McDermott, Iron Moulder. SP has her death as 66 years old, but I am sure the stone said 69 (?).
Anyhow the death was at the Victoria Infirmary and recorded in Cathcart district. Usual address given as 66 Paisley Road, West Govan. Parents listed as William Parker and Grace Caldwell, both deceased. Death informed by Janet Brandon, 99 King Street, Tradeston. Obviously all of these addresses are outwith the area of St John's, Barrhead.
I have not seen any more McDermott graves as yet in Neilston - but the weather is miserable, so it may be a while before I am have another looks.
Hope this helps.
Murphyz
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Thanks Murphyz for that great information!
My gt.grandmother died at Russells land craigheads Barrhead april 5th 1892 i think gt.Grandfather died at the same address.He was a limestone worker.I know through the family that they stayed at thi address.So back to the records for me.
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Hiya
Sorry if I am not following this well - but the McDermott stone which is in Neilston - is that the one you are looking for?
From Scotlands People - John McDermott, limework labourer, widower of Jane Dundas died 5th Jan 1896 at 55 Craighead Street Barrhead, but his parents are listed as Bernard McDermott and Annie McKee. Death notified by son Bernard McDermott. I haven't accessed the Jane Dundas McDermott death on SP but the dates you mention are the same as on the Neilston stone.
Regards
Murphyz
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The grave in Neilston is the grave of my Gt.Grandparents,thank you for finding it for me.I was there on Thursday,thank's for showing the photograph,I would never have found it without having an idea what it looked like,and the position of the wall,and the tree.I tried to take a photo.but the batteries in the camera had run out.No matter I will go back.The grave in Barrhead,I started to research it years ago,and of course the dates I had did not correspond with the dates ,and names I had.Now I have the true resting place of my family.Thank you again for posting on the forum.My wife and I go to Ireland every year,we go to Fermanagh,the local historian showed us the cottage my Gt.grandfather was born in 1829,but the records there are none existant.I will keep up with the forum.I have an e-mail to send regarding this topic,I will get in touch. weeboab
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Weeboab
I have quite a few photos of the grave which you can have, I will drop you a pm with my email address.
Cheers
Murphyz
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Hi Murphyz,
This is from memory only so forgive me if I add to the confusion. I'm not sure when the present Columba Club was built but I seem to remember this happening when I was at St John's School next door. This would have been early to mid 1970s. Before this I think the original Chapel building would have been left as a ruin. I'd be surprised if St Conval's doesn't have a record of the reinterments. As I say, this is only from memory so forgive me if this is not correct. I was always led to believe my grandfathers brother was buried in the old chapel ground circa 1918 but doubt if there would have been a marker.
Re the stones which were in the old st john's churchyard - I have been to Barrhead library and they believe any graves which would have been disturbed by the building of the Columba Club were re-interrred, as it was sacred ground. Old photos of the original church show graves in what would now be the car park.
The library thinks the graves affected were re-interred to St Convals,Barrhead. If some one knows this isn't right, let me know and I will try and go through old copies of the Barrhead News to see if it was mentioned when the church burnt down.
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I have rummaged through the micro fiche of the Barrhead News; I could only see two stories about the building/opening of the Columba Club.
BHN 11/08/1972 - Says the Columba Club's new £35,000 building is open to members but won't be officially opened until September 1972. No mention of the graves being moved, but it does say the ground was allowed to be used for the building by the Catholic Church "on condition the Knights of St Columba be responsible for the picturesque cemetery."
BHN 22/09/1972 - Official opening to be held Friday 22nd Sept 1972 with a Dinner Dance at the Columba Club and Bishop Stephen McGill of Paisley and Provost McGuire to be in attendance.
I have also checked the Barrhead News for 1926 and 1928 for the McDermott deaths as per the Neilston cemetery stone but unfortunately no death notices.
Regards
Z
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McDERMOTT
So far I have only managed to see one other McDermott headstone in Neilston cemetery. I will not put all the details on as it has fairly current dates but it includes the names Alexander McDermott, died aged 50 in 1976, husband of Margaret; Mary Martin and a child of the either Alexander or Mary Martin.
I have somehow managed to loose all my emails so not sure if this is any connection to the older stone in Neilston, and it is too current to check on SP.
Kind Regards
Z
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McDERMOTT - Barrhead News 1962/1967/1968
I have gone through the Barrhead News BDMs for the years 1962, 1967 and 68 and I have not found a single entry for a McDermott or a Helena Mitchell.
I have just had a look on Scotlands People and there is a death of a Helena Mitchell in 1966 in Paisley/other name listed as Murphy, aged 48 years. Gros Data 573/01 007. It is going to be a few years before it is available to see on line. I will try and check 1966 of the BHD News, but it is unlikely to have an entry if she then lived in Paisley.
On a separate but related note, I think I may have found some of the reasons why I can't find certain gravestones in Neilston.
BHD News 6 March 1968 - "On Thursday night an unknown number of youths climbed the walls of Neilston cemetery and systemically tore down 113 gravestones, wrecking some beyond repair."
There is also a mention of the fact this damage was done six weeks after a gale had blown down some stones.
BHD News 28 June 1968 - Neilston cemetery - thirteen headstones overturned and the damage believed to be the work of one youth.
Regards
Murphyz
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Muprhyz
I think shame on them - I hope they;re not now looking for their ancestors. I remember my granny going on about that at the time cos our lot up there. Thankfully ours were Ok but even so those peeps who's stones weren;t. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. They should be thankful she never got her mitts on them (I didn;t know then owning up time my gt grandad was in there but I was in me teens).
Yet again this weekend I only got a fleeting glimpse as I drove along Barrhead Main St. Tho was stopped in traffic - thanks MCgills- long enough to actually look at the building my dad once owned - then told him off for selling it lol cos it was an auld one ( lol it was as well I remember it Blimey!)
He owned the shop premises and worked out of there in the 1970s. It's now an estate agent and the flat above on the corner of Arthurlie St and Main St. I worked in chemist next door when was at school - Saturday lassie- when it was Mc Phersons - the man who also did specs (nice to see Frazer still there cos he bought him oot in late 70s)
Ah memories!
Ann :D
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hi i found this site maybe of help
WWW.FINDAGRAVEINSCOTLAND.COM
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Thanks Tom will check out.
Irene