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Some Special Interests => Occupation Interests => Topic started by: I4Favre on Tuesday 02 June 09 19:07 BST (UK)
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This a picture of my father that was born in 1911 with his mother. Can any one tell me what they are sitting on?
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Only a guess but it looks like a well.
There seems to be a pulley and counterwieght with a rope going down below ground level.
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Hi Darlene,
You have some fascinating old photos there.
I think there are two items in this one, the lady appears to be sitting on a sort of trestle or possibly a sawing horse, separate from the other thing. The 'rope' looks to me more like a metal stay connecting to the wooden beam on the ground, and there may be a matching one on the far side. The top of the A-frame has 2 bearings to carry a shaft or axle, and the part the boy is sitting on looks as if it pivots at the bottom and is retained by a chain near the top. I'd say it was the remains of a piece of stationary equipment, something like a circular saw perhaps, bearing in mind the 'saw-horse' . . . but I'm probably way off the mark . . .
Maybe it was part of a well-head after all. You can picture it sitting over a well with a pulley fitted in the holes, but it seems a little too complicated really.
I do hope someone can positively identify it. I'm dying to find out. ::)
Mike. :)
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I was stumped when I found this photo! It was nice to reconize my dad and grandmother, but the size of the photo was so small, that I scanned it at a high dpi, and blew it up. Then could tell who was in the photo. But I had no idea what they are sitting on.
My dad was born in 1911, and he looks about 7 -9 in this picture, so I am guessing the time frame would be between 1918-1920.
We lived in Lafayette County, Wisconsin.
Thanks for the suggestions on this and hope we can figure out what it is!
Thanks again.
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Just looked up Lafayette County and noticed it was an important lead mining area. I wonder if the machinery could be connected with that? It could be part of a winch, perhaps. Or maybe something to do with the timber (lumber) trade?
Mike.
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Mike, you are right about the lead mines in this area, but my family were farmers. The farm was 280 acres in 1950 and the family started farming when they arrived from Germany in 1852. Most of the lead miners were the families from Cornwall, England. There were some mines in the area, but not on our farm.
It could have been used for mining, so maybe I will alter the subject line and ad that!
Thanks again, Darlene
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Hi there,
Could be quite wrong, but perhaps it was an attachment to other farming equipment - fitting onto the back of something as in say:
A team of horses (or other animal) would be way off to the right (of say the photo), pulling say a plough, or tiller, and this implement fitted on top of the middle to rear of that plough/tiller. Thus someone sat with their back to the horse and dispersed seeds into the ploughed rows, while the person in charge of the horses and the plough/tiller etc sat facing the horses directing them where to go :)
Not sure, but I think I heard that type of explanation once when at a museum where the equipment on display came under the heading "dead stock". That is "dead" as opposed to "lives tock" which were the animals on the farm. I remember he also said "deadstock" was only different to his display of the old "capital equipment", as Capital Equipment was very expensive and the "attachments" being of course cheaper, and thus "dead" from a book-keeping point of view.
Hope that helps rather than confuses you all. The museum visit was in the mid 1970's and the chap was displaying his farming family's old equipment. He was very old then and he had worked on the farm all his life, as had his forebears. This was in NSW Australia, in the wheat belt communities.
JM
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I would tend to agree with Mike's thoughts. A circular saw could fit in those bearings while the bar your father is sat on could be attached to a traction engine via a pulley to power the saw.
Whatever it is, it looks a home made one off for a particular task. Another possibility, might be totally wrong on this but those metal stays could be pedal treadles? Those bearings and the frame could hold a block of wood to turn a hub/boss for waggon/cart wheel. A lathe for making wheel bosses perhaps? Failing that perhaps a device to make true the waggon wheels?
It looks a very interesting contraption and even I would like to know what it is!
Best wishes,
Bosuns Call
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I think the photo that I posted on the photo restoration site might be a better quailty and you can view it better.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,384935.0.html
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Well, you can rule out the well idea, looking at the better picture, it's obviously not a well :)
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Bit More,
Those photos are really well done.
Notice the BRAKE or STOP lever - near the boy's left arm
Notice the STEERING mechanicism near the lady's right shoulder
Notice the shaft to permit the lifting up of the structure where the boy is sitting
Could this be a HAY BAILER perhaps?
Not sure, but hope I am advancing the plot.
JM
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I've outlined the main structure of the frame (as I see it) for clarity. There seems to be a connecting link on the lever in just the right position for a rope or chain to run over the curved iron 'thing' . . . .
Not sure if this helps at all, but I'm still hoping someone will recognise it and tell us exactly what it is :-\
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Ah, that's great mike175.
Ummm, wonder what happens when the steering "wheel" is turned
Wonder what turns the shaft - it seems to be a bright steel - would that help date it?
But I think the lady is perhaps sitting on a separate timber frame that may or may not be part of the mysterious farming implement :)
Yes, I too am hoping that someone will recognise it and tell us what it is and how it worked and ... and.... and....
;D ;D ;D
JM
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I am glad that you are now looking at a better quailty picture and can see the "mystery contraption" up close! I thank all of you for your ideas and suggestions, and hope we get a definite answer to what it is!
Thanks again!
Darlene
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Hi JM,
Yes I agree about the lady's seat, which could be a sawing horse or trestle.
My best guess is that the main object was a logging saw, with a large circular sawblade on one side of the frame and a pulley on the opposite side, driven from an engine of some sort. The boy's seat could be a cradle to hold the log, which pivots in towards the saw to cut off short lengths. It would be lowered to the ground to attach the log first, then pulled up with a rope attached to the lever.
I don't suppose I'm right, but I imagine they would have burnt a lot of wood for heating that big house!
Mike.
PS. there's a video here that shows you the idea:
http://www.joeturnerequipment.co.uk/firewood_processors.htm
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Hi, I have been looking in a book about old trades and forgotten crafts. There are some sleds in one section--not for use in snow but a simple sort of transport especially in hilly countryside such as Wales. The horses were not properly harnessed as there were no shafts but chains were attached to their collars really to use them as brakes to slow down the descent of the sled from the high pastures .I think the horses would not go in front but at the sides or back .,There is obviously a seat where the boy is seated and some sort of wheel behind the him perhaps for some control. I can only imagine hay was loaded on either side but perhaps we are not seeing the complete object .Something quite similar was used by cockle fishers off the Cumbrian coast and the fisherman semi lay on it and pushed through shallow water with his feet , the sand with cockles was raked up and they could be more easily gathered. Hope this is not too way off the mark .There seems to be a chamfering on the front part near the ground -as you would find on old wooden wheelbarrow handles. What an interesting topic. Viktoria.
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Have you thought of posting the photo in one of the magazines for old machinery enthusiasts? Or you could take it to one of the museums or machinery shows and ask around.
There must be an old farm equipment expert out there who knows exactly what it is (presumably they're not into genealogy). :)
Rian.
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I'll add a vote for Mike's stationary saw bench with the pulley shaft and blade taken off for resharpening or safety (with kids about? :))
The clearer photo seems to show daylight through the higher bearing which implies that the axle shaft is missing. I reckon the metal frame behind the lady is either a primitive curved safety guard for the missing blade, or a rope guide for a pulling rope attached to the cradle on which the lad is sitting.
We've got a metal 1930s version in the nettles which would look similar with it's blade off. I'll try to get a picture tomorrow, but ours was run from a flat pulley on an old 1930 Lister engine.
Fred :)
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Rian,
I just found this picture a couple of days ago and posted it to have it brightened up and someone suggested I put it on this forum to see if anyone knew what they were sitting on. I do live in a pretty rural area, so no musems close by or a place with older farming machinery. But it is a good idea and worth looking into. So I might do some research on doing that!
Thanks for the idea!
Darlene
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Here are a couple of pics of our old circular saw this morning. Although this one is metal, the principle is just the same. The one in the old photo would have had a blade roughly where the lady is sitting.
Fred :)
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I don't know what anyone else thinks, but it looks similar to the one in my photo! Maybe that is the answer!
Thanks, Darlene
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I'll settle for that. 8)
I'd never actually seen one before, but I'm convinced it is the same machine, given a few differences in style.
It's good to get support from a fellow stockman, Fred . . . but I reckon you might have a few 'health and safety' issues with that one ;)
Mike.
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Hi All,
My vote is for that being the same machine. It all makes sense now!
JM
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Ditto. I agree to all of the above. Circular saw it is! ;D
Best wishes,
Bosuns Call
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You might be able to email your photograph to the Wisconsin Historical Society for clarification. They may have someone on staff who could positively identify the equipment.
"Farmer Cuts Wood with Power Saw, 1928"
This image has some parts that are similar to your photo. Your photo could be missing the actual blades. Also, in case it hasn't been noted previously, although the photo was taken c1920, the actual machinery could be quite a bit older than the photo.
If your machinery is a saw, it could be an earlier version of the 1928 saw.
http://www.wisconsinhistory.org/whi/results.asp
Search for Circular Saw
Photos can be purchased from the Society, so be careful about sending the image if you don't care to share it. ;)
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Thanks everyone for you input on this subject! I did send an email to the Wisconisn Historical Society this morning and will see what I hear back!
Have a good week end!
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Just posting so that I get a reminder email when further posts are submitted :P
I sooo want to know any further developments/identifications ;D
DB10
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I sent email to Wisconsin Historical Society and received this message:
" If I'm not able to identify the farm equipment, I will show the photo to Lee Grady, our International Harvester Archivist and resident "Tractor Guy." we should be able to figure out what Dad and Grandma are sitting on. I'll watch for your reply."
I have just emailed the picture and will post on here when I get a reply!
Darlene
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I have been keeping an eye on this thread too ;), so have put my name down waiting for the reply from the Historical Society.
But it looks like you already have the answer - old circular saw - has my vote. ;D
Margaret
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Stockman Fred's photos have convinced me, it is a circular saw.
Different country so different style but the basic design is the same.
It all become clear when you see the blade in place.
Thanks for the illustration Fred :)
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Hi everyone!
It will be at least a week before I here back from the Wisconsin Historical Society! I had an email yesterday and they said they had many queries ahead of mine and would be back to me in about a week. So when I hear back from them, I will put another post on here!
thanks for all the input and interest in this photo and mystery equipment!
Darlene
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I just had an email from the Wisconisn Historical sociey and here is the response that I got:
QUOTE:
" I'm sorry to say that we are stumped. Our best guess is that it is an apparatus for a well or part of an irrigation pump that is just sitting in the yard. I've searched Google Images to try and find something similar and I've come up empty, but it does look a bit like a small version of an oil well pump jack: http://www.promsnab.dn.ua/neft/foto/pnksh.jpg. "
They also suggested another site to post the photo and question on what it is, So that is what I am going to do now.
Thanks!
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hi all ive looked at this post for a few weeks now im still hoping for result best of luck everyone in this quest.
neil
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Hi Darlene,
I'm disappointed that you had such a poor response from the Wisconsin Historical Society, especially as the machine in the picture on their own website, suggested by Lisa in California, is so similar to yours:
http://www.wisconsinhistory.org/whi/fullimage.asp?id=26331
I'm still convinced, anyway . . . :)
It would take a lot of imagination, not to mention some serious engineering, to make it an oil well :o :o
Mike.
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There is no oil in our part of the counrty, but lots of lead mines back then! Will post on here again if I find out what it is! I am on a mission now!
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Perhaps it would be fun to have a "competition" to Name That Thing--. It has been an interesting topic.
My contribution is a thingummy jig to wozzle an intersprockler for galviscating sprengles.Viktoria. (That means a mangold wurzel chopper)
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Parts coloured =suggested wheel
Well Grandad took a wheel with a crank, he got the old saw bench then joined them up together
and guess what he found he had made a wim wom for a mustard mill.
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I think that the triangular bit (for want of a better description, not being as inventive as previous posters) is a brake of some sort, or even a log holding device, rather than part of a wheel.
I quite like the saw mill suggestion: if the log was on the ground at the far side of the machine, you could have the saw wheel running from the axle that goes through the holes at the top of the piece.
Anyway, we're all waiting with bated breath to find out for sure!
:)
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I'm still convinced it's a saw. :) There was a very similar one in use on the Old Machinery programme on Rural TV the other night (on the satellite). It was an American show and they were running restored woodworking machines and steam engines from around 1900.
I love the photo archive on the Wisconsin website, I saved it on my Favourites. Great Grandad had his first International Harvester tractor in 1917 and there are several pictures of them in the archives. We're still trying to prove a connection between Great great granny Case from Wiltshire and J.I. Case, the famous tractor man from Racine (so we can get a family discount on the next tractor ;D )
Fred
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I just had another look at the Wisconsin picture (see the link on my last post) . . . and it even has the strange curved/triangular "thing", except that it is hanging down instead of being upright as in Darlene's photo . . .
I'd love to know exactly what that bit is for but, like Fred, I'm still convinced it's a saw. :)
Mike.
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I can't access the site they told me to post the picture on ,so I emailed them and asked for clarification on the site address. Hope to have some news soon on what this is!
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Well, I may have some answers! My brother has been helping me to find out what this was and he came this morning with this description:
It is a device that you put on the frozen river to break up the ice. You pull the lever down and it attaches it self to the chunk of ice, then you hitch up a team of horses and pull the ice out of the river.
So does any one think this is the answer? I may not have the wording quite right, but that is the jest of it.
Hoping to get some responses!
Darlene
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Hmmmmm . . . .
That would be way outside my personal experience, but as a practical sort of chap I can see a few flaws in the suggestion:
First off, I can't see anywhere to attach the horses. Secondly, it doesn't explain the purpose of the 2 bearing blocks on the top of the A-frames, or of the cradle that the boy is sitting on. I admit the bottom rails do slightly resemble sledge runners, but they have very little upturn on what might be the front ends.
I might be persuaded if anyone has evidence that such operations were in fact carried out, but it's not something I've heard of; maybe they collected the ice for preserving food?
Until some more convincing evidence to the contrary shows up I'm, sticking with the logging saw theory. :)
Mike.
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I think the saw bench idea is the more likely from the look of the machine.
However, in UK & rest of Europe pre refrigerators, ice blocks were cut from lakes and rivers in winter and stored in underground icehouses. The ice was then used through the summer months in the kitchen. Usually associated with big houses but there were commercial operations. I assume the same thing happened in the USA. I get the impression the ice was cut by saw & axe, but there might have been other specialised equipment.
Robert
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Hi Robert,
Well, I knew about icehouses but always assumed the ice was cut by hand in modest quantities. I never realised it was such a huge industry for our 'colonial cousins' :o . . . s'pose I should've guessed ;D
I just had a look at some web sites, and there was some horsedrawn ice harvesting machinery, but nothing remotely resembling the one on this topic. I remain in the sawbench camp.
http://www.museum.state.il.us/RiverWeb/harvesting/harvest/ice/ice_harvesting.html
http://www.myhamilton.ca/myhamilton/LibraryServices/Localhistory/Ice+Harvesting.htm
RootsChat is a great way to extend your education 8)
Mike.
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To be truthfull with you, I was a little leery of this idea, but he showed the photo to a John Deere dealer, who kept the picture asked quite a few people. One of the person's grandfathers had one. I think they said that the ice was cut, then you put this piece of equipment on the ice, let the lever down to attach to the ice, then they pulled the chunks off with a team of horses..
I know there was a decent size river going thru our farm land.
So I guess this is still a "mystery!"
Darlene
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Bit More,
Those photos are really well done.
Notice the BRAKE or STOP lever - near the boy's left arm
Notice the STEERING mechanicism near the lady's right shoulder
Notice the shaft to permit the lifting up of the structure where the boy is sitting
Could this be a HAY BAILER perhaps?
Not sure, but hope I am advancing the plot.
JM
OK Im a slow starter on this topic. On the aparatus that appears to rotate, I note that the radius of steel that is behind Grandma's forearm is quite different to the iron work up higher on tis item. If the hidden arm is longer than the upper arm, )evidenced by wear marks on the arm below the boys left hip, I have to wonder if this is indeed a primitive maker for sheaved hay (akin to the advanced hay binder of the 1940's/50's here in Australia). This hidden arm may swing down, under and upward to tighten the sheaf prior to a manual twine/string tie.
Just a thought. It sure is a fascinating machine tho.
Cheers
Bob
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So I guess this is still a "mystery!"
I know some people prefer a mystery, but if you really want to know the answer I reckon you'd be safe to go with the saw . . .
For anyone who hasn't seen the pics on . . .
http://www.wisconsinhistory.org/whi/fullimage.asp?id=26331
. . . here's a side-by-side: