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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: soulsister on Monday 01 June 09 22:41 BST (UK)
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I'm just wondering if someone can tell me how I go about getting hold of a copy of the Service Record of a Charles Tilbrook from the 1850's. I have found out through internet searches that he died in 1853 in Bermuda.
I'd like to see the service record to see what details are on there but don't know how to get hold of them!
Regards
Emma
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Hi Emma
If he was in the army his service record would have been destroyed 20 years after his death. Those that survive can be accessed on the NA catalogue - http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp. One you do find served in the RN about the same time.
Again, if he was in the army, he will be in the Muster Books (WO12) but you will need his regiment, and you will have to visit Kew as they are original documents.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/militaryhistory/army/step4.htm
Where does the information that he was in the army, and died in Bermuda, come from?
Ken
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The information about his death has come from his service records apparently. I have read online a post on a mailing list from about 10 years ago from a man researching the same man as I am! I have emailed him, but 10 years is quite a long time ago so I'm not holding my breath.
It also says that he was in the 56th Foot and a Colour Sergeant if that makes any sense!
Emma
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It also says that he was in the 56th Foot and a Colour Sergeant if that makes any sense!
Hi Emma
It makes sense - his rank was Colour Sergeant and his regiment was the 56th Regiment of Foot. They were nominally called the West Essex then. They were in Bermuda 1852 to 1854. As you have his regiment you can visit Kew and look him up in the Muster Books and Pay Lists (WO12).
Essex Record Office also have some information about their time in Bermuda - http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/nra/searches/subjectView.asp?ID=O38258
Ken
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Many thanks for your help Ken! May be awhile until I get to see those papers then as I haven't left the town in which I live for about 10 years! At least I know where the records are when I get chance to go off and find them! Might contact Essex R/O and see if they can do copies!
Emma
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Hi Emma,
I am new to Rootschat so I hope I have done this correctly. I have currently reached a bit of an impasse with my own tree so I am researching a family for a friend of mine. One of her ancestors was an Arthur Charles Tilbrook. He was married around 1870 in Salford, Lancashire aged about 23 but I could find no record of a relevant birth in the UK. I started looking for military or consular births abroad and found one who fitted perfectly. It was an Army birth and he was born in Gibralter in 1847 to parents called Charles and Isabella Tilbrook. This is where the agreement with your person comes in. Charles was a Colour Sergeant in the 1st Battalion of the 56th Regiment (as Ken says the West Essex Rifles then). This regiment went to Gibralter between Dec 1846 and Feb 1847. It left Gibralter in May 1851 and sailed to Bermuda on The Resistance. A massive outbreak of Yellow Fever occurred in Sep 1853 and more than 100 of the 500 men in the regiment died there. I do not have his death certificate but I am assuming since this is when and where he died it is likely he was a victim of the Yellow Fever outbreak. I think the victims were buried in St George's Military cemetery there (I am not certain though and there are a lot of cemetries and military installations there). I can find no further trace of Isabella and no UK marriage that makes sense so I am wondering whether, given her name, Isabella may be Spanish and they met on Gibralter where she may have returned. However, I found the son in the 1861 census as a scholar on a military foundation in Chelsea but no mother so maybe Isabella perished also in Bermuda. In Charles I think we are almost certainly looking at one and the same person, so if you think I may have something relevant to your quest please let me know and if you beat me to Kew and find anything relevant in the service record I would most appreciate hearing about it.
Regards,
Steve
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Hi Steve
A h*ll of a first post, and probably the longest paragraph I have read this year ;) In (almost) reverse order, some RMA information is available online, and there are two Tilbrooks listed - http://www.rma-searcher.co.uk/Chelsea/RPDF/RMAPHA/TAF%20to%20TYT.pdf.
If boys were not returned to a parent they normally left on their 14th birthday. Both boys appear to have been enlisted in the 56th Regiment. I take it the birth in Gibraltar was of Charles (jnr)? The entry date into the RMA may be significant, as is the fact they arrived on different dates. The RMA was an orphanage for children who had lost one or both parents.
Regarding Isabella, it is very difficult to prove due to a shortage of evidence, but widows of soldiers often re-married another soldier, especially when abroad. The problem is the army did not record wives names until the 1870s. One exception is when they spent money transporting the widow or children back from the overseas station. This may be recorded in the muster book and pay lists. At least in this case the children did not adopt the surname of any stepfather.
If you need any help following the service of the two boys, read the “~step4” link in my first reply. Emma may already have the father’s service record.
Ken
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Hi Ken,
Firstly, thank you for replying to my post and with such interesting information and secondly let me say sorry for the length of the paragraph. Once the note exceeds the box, the refresh makes it difficult so I kept it compact which causes problems when you are as verbose as myself. In future I will type off line and paste into the box to avoid the problem!
Yes, the birth in Gibralter was indeed Charles Jnr. and I was aware he also became a soldier from his marriage certificate. What was especially interesting about your reply was the presence of James on the school list. I am sure he will be related if not a brother to Charles and I didn’t know of him although as you say the different admission date is interesting.
A problem is that as Army they rarely appear on any census list. I had found only one other Tilbrook Army birth abroad for that period, Leveson Tilbrook in Gibralter around 1850. However from his age on that register James must have been born around 1843-44. The regiment was in Britain then and indeed I have now found a James Tilbrook born in the Dec qtr 1843 at Melton Mowbray.
I also found Army Births abroad for the 56th Regiment that were date consistent with offspring of Charles Snrs children. Interestingly called Isabella J at Curragh in 1870 and Mary A in Poona in 1873. I was sure these weren’t Charles’ children as they were in Manchester so maybe they were James’ children.
Charles Jnr does not appear in any census after his school days in 1861 (I was lucky there since he was discharged to the army only a week after the 1861 census) or with any UK registered death. I have found a death of a Charles A Tilbrook (his second name was Arthur) as a consular death at Revel between 1886 and 1890. I don’t know where the new Essex Regiment was at this time or if Revel makes sense. I guess some purchased documents will may things clearer.
Thank you again for your response. I wouldn’t have found the Chelsea documents easily otherwise.
Steve
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Hi steve
The 2nd Battalion of the Essex Regiment (formerly 56th Regt) were in Malta, Cyprus and Egypt between 1886 and 1890. I don't know where Revel is. The 1st Bn were at home.
Regarding editing I use Word and then copy it into the box.
Ken
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Hi Steve
From the information you have it seems that we are both at about the same stage as each other in the Tilbrook search. Tilbrook comes into my partner's tree and the Leveson Tilbrook you found is my partner's direct ancestor.
I do have information from another researcher which has Charles snr enlisting 30th Nov 1837, aged 22yrs. I believe that his wife Isabella was Irish and apparently after Charles' death she remarried another Colour Sergeant and went to live in Ireland, this information I have yet to follow up.
I have the RMA information which Ken linked to and have followed James on the census as far as I can. His childrens' births match perfectly with where his regiment were based.
It seems that Charles snr was in Ireland between 1838 and 1844 (info from Musters and passed to me from the other researcher), which is why I believe that Isabella was possibly Irish, I may be wrong though!!!
From his death info, Charles snr was born at Wellinghampstead, Essex.
I have gotten no further back as yet!
Kindest Regards
Emma
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Hi Emma,
Thank you for replying. I have not long started this search so I expect you are actually much further on than myself but it is only at Charles Snr and Isabella that the two lines intersect.
A lot of what you tell me here is very useful. I now know that Leveson (I had not come across this as a given name before but I am told usually pronounced Looson if used as a first name) is connected to Charles Jnr which I suspected and it appears that the children I found did indeed belong to James. I knew Charles Snr had been to Ireland before Gibralter but had no details about his enlistment or a certificate of death to find his birth information. Thank you very much for pointing me in the right direction there.
The only information that I have, that might help you fill in some relatives information is about Charles Jnr.
He was born on 12th April 1847 in Gibralter to Charles and Isabella Tilbrook and baptised there as Charles (no sign of the Arthur until later) on 7th June 1847 by J Buchanan, Chaplain to the Forces.
I then have a marriage of an Arthur Charles Tilbrook age 23 and a soldier in 1870. I have not made the definitive proof link between the two people to show they are one and the same yet but the age, profession and name match and the father of the groom is described as Charles Tilbrook with the fathers profession left blank (maybe because he has died) and equally I cannot find him elsewhere.
He was married on 12th July 1870 to Martha Jane Cheetham who is described as age 17 (although she was described as 16 on the census the next year). They were married in St. James Parish Church in Salford, Lancashire. They had a son James born in 1871 (my friends direct ancestor) and according to the census a son Joseph C born in 1870 in Eccles. I cannot find them on the birth indexes currently.
Thank you again and I will now get on with looking up some of the information and let you know if I find anything fresh.
Regards
Steve
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Hi Ken,
Thank you for letting me know where the regiment was between 1886 and 1890. I found there was a Revel in France and also that Tallinn, the capital of Estonia was previously called Revel. So maybe this was the wrong Charles or he was in overland Transit or just visiting in a civilian role by then.
Regards,
Steve
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I think you will have to buy the Revel certificate to be sure.
Ken
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Hello Emma, Ken and Steve,
First of all, I just spent some time writing to you all regarding Charles Tilbrook (the colour sergeant) and his son James (my 2nd and 3rd great grandfathers). At the end I printed what I had written - thank goodness - because then it all disappeared and I have no idea where it all went :-\
So if you see all this again, I apologize.
I have had difficulty researching this side of my family, but recently had some luck and turned up some helpful bits and peices.
Back to the story...Charles' son James was also in the 56th regiment. In 1869, at the time of his marriage, he was a private at the Royal Barracks (in Dublin I believe as he married Mary Anne Hevey, (she was from Armagh, Ireland) at St. Paul's (COI) in Dublin.
Mary Ann was apparently a minor when they were married but Charles and her father Patrick were listed on the record of marriage, along with two witnesses. Patrick Hevey was an "instructor of gunny on artillery (Militia)".
James must have been transferred to Athlone because that is where their first child, Isobella Jane was born in 1872. Soon after that he was posted to India and Mary Anne and Isobella went along. In 1873 Mary Ann was born in Poona and then a son in Karachee and another son on the Isle of Wight. (Sorry I don't have the information at hand so I will have to fill you in on the years or birth and the names of the boys at a later date). I have always assumed that the children were born wherever their father happened to be posted. Eventually the family were relocated to England where they resided at the Little Barracks in Essex.
When Isabella was grown she married James Garman and they lived in Essex. They proceeded to have seven daughters. One of them, Mabel Dorothy Garman was my grandmother. She married H. George Osborne at St. Margaret's, Barking and they had two daughters: E.M.E. (known as June) Osborne and Iris Marjorie Osborne. June married Kenneth Kind, my parents.
I hope that this information might be of use to you too. The Tilbrook information that I have come across, and also what you have written here, is quite confusing, I'm sure you'll agree. Perhaps between us we can come up with some solutions that make sense! Who knows, we could even be related!! I wold love to hear from you if you have learned more about the Tilbrooks in the past year or two.
Thank you. I will check back here or I can also be reached at (*)
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...At the end I printed what I had written - thank goodness - because then it all disappeared and I have no idea where it all went ...
It is best to use (say) Word to compose longish posts. Then you can cut and paste it into the forum, after using the spell checker, and you have a copy should you press the wrong button etc.
Ken
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Thanks Ken. I should have thought of that myself!! Next time....
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Dear Mrsk,
I don’t know if I can provide anything else of interest for you since I was researching for a friend and passed it over to them shortly after I wrote my previous entry and I don’t believe they have done anything more.
Since James’ father, the Colour Sergeant Charles Snr died in Bermuda in 1853, then I assume you mean Charles Jnr, who was brother to James was on the 1869 Wedding Certificate as a witness. That seems logical as they were at The Royal Military Asylum together as pupils and both joined the 56th at a similar time. All I can contribute then in addition to what I have previously written is details of the death of Charles Arthur Tilbrook (Charles Jnr). I obtained the Death Certificate and it shows he died on 12th December 1889 aged 42 in Reval Russia. I think this is now in Estonia and sometimes spelt Revel. He was 2nd mate on board the SS Erota out of Grimsby and the death was registered by the Captain, T.D. Dowse. An interesting point to note is that it was a Death Certificate issued by the British Vice-Consulate in Reval and although there are many columns for relevant information, nowhere is there anywhere to enter a cause of death. That must have been left to the local authorities to decide/confirm and register locally.
Sorry I can’t be of more help but good luck with your research and if I find out more I will return to the thread and post the relevant details.
Steve
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Hi Emma,
It seems that we are looking for the same branch of the family! My second great grandfather was James Tilbrook. He married Mary Anne Hevey and their oldest daughter was Isobella Jane Tillbrook, my great grandmother
James' father was Charles Tillbrook, but I think there may be more than one. On James and Mary Anne's marriage record in 1869 it lists Charles Tillbrook as his father. If your Charles died in Bermuda in 1853, it can't be the same person. May be we can join forces and share our information. Are you related to the Tilbrooks? If so, how?
Regards,
Melodie
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Hi Steve,
Thank you so much for your response. As I just told Emma, maybe there are two Charles Tilbrooks as it definately lists him as father to James on his marriage from St. Paul's church in Dublin in 1869. Do you think they would have put his brother's name in that spot if Charles snr had died? Wouldn't they have noted that it was his brother?
I'll have to keep searching.
Thank you again,
Mrsk