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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Herefordshire => Topic started by: Bosuns Call on Wednesday 27 May 09 00:31 BST (UK)
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I've been researching my family tree for a while but I seem to be getting nowhere fast. My granddad was George Price and he was born in Letton, Herefordshire in 1901. In the census records I found his father, a George Henry Price born about 1845 in Kinnersley, Herefordshire. He moved to Letton and was an agricultural labourer/gardener.
I've written to the registrar but they haven't been able to find his marriage certificate. George Henry I presume must have got married in about 1895. He married a Louisa Vale who was born in 1875 in St. Devereux, Herefordshire.
George Henry's dad I also found in the censuses and my great great granddad was James Price and he was born about 1805 in Staunton-On-Arrow, Herefordshire. During his life he moved from Staunton-On-Arrow to Shobdon, then on to Kinnersley and finally Letton. James married a Susanna from Shobdon born in 1807 but I don't know her surname. Besides George Henry they had 3 other children who were Sarah Ann born 1837 in Shobdon, James Thomas born 1843 in Kinnersley and Arthur born 1847 also in Kinnersley. James Price was a farmer/gardener and he died in Letton in 1891. Susanna died in Letton in 1895.
That is as far back as I can go in the family line to be sure of. Hopefully there is someone on this forum who has a family tree that crosses over with this one?
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Hi Bosuns Call, welcome to Rootschat!
I'm afraid I dont share a family tree with you, but I was thinking about the missing marriage date for your gt grandfather and Louisa Vale. My first thought was whether it was possible that George Henry had been married before and so he and Louisa hadn't been able to get married, and also whether you had looked at the 1911 census to see how many years they stated that they had been married?
Best wishes,
Spidermonkey
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If you get Geroge henry's birth cert it will give his myms maiden name (Susannah).
Have you got George bn 1901's birth cert? Is that where Louisa Vale's maiden name came from?
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I cant see George Henry and Louisa on 1901 census.
Was there really a 30 yr age difference?
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Hi Spidermonkey, thanks for the welcome.
It hadn't occurred to me before you mentioned it, and now I am wondering if he did have a previous wife hidden away somewhere. I have found them in the 1911 census at Back Lane, Staunton-On-Wye, Herefordshire. He's listed as a labourer on farm and that he and Louisa had been married for 15 years which would make an 1896 marriage. I'm a little wary over that fact though as George Henry seems to have stretched the truth quite a bit over the cenuses. George Henry states he was 51 in 1911 which would mean he was born in 1860 which is a miracle on his part as I have found him aged about 6 in Kinnersley in the 1851 census!
In the 1911 census George Henry and Louisa are living with 3 of their children, Susan aged 14, Isabel aged 11 and Thomas aged 5. I found my granddad George aged 9 living in an Alms house, Staunton-On-Wye and he was living with his great aunt Sarah Price aged 74, born in Shobdon but on the census George is only listed as a nephew rather than great nephew.
As Price is such a common surname and with so many George's too I could not be sure of which George is which when they're away from family, so I have a 20 year census gap for George Henry as I can't be sure of finding him in either the 1861 or 1871 censuses as he must have left his family and Herefordshire during this period. Perhaps George Henry got married to someone else during this period? Thanks for your interest.
Best wishes,
Bosuns Call
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Hi lizdb,
I can find no trace of a birth certificate of George Henry. With him being listed on the census as born in Kinnersley and with family from Shobdon and Staunton-On-Arrow I wrote to the Leominster Superintendent Registrar to apply for a birth certificate, where I gave all this information and unfortunately they drew a blank which is one of the reasons I've joined RootsChat!
I did apply for the birth certificate for my granddad and his mother was listed as a Louisa Vale and her sister Mary Jane registered the birth and was also listed as present at the birth. His birth was registered as being at Hurstley in Letton.
I'm not surprised you could not find them in the 1901 census. Even knowing where they should be, I struggled to find them. I knew that in 1901 they lived in Hurstley, Letton and I found George (Henry) who I knew to be a gardener and my granddad's sister Isabel, all on the same census so it has to be them and is surely beyond coincidence?
In the 1901 census George is listed as aged 49, born in 1852, while Louisa is mentioned as a 'Lys' aged 27 years old, born in 1874. They have 2 daughters. Isabel is a 1 year old and there is an Eliza who is 4 years old. But in the 1911 census this Eliza has now been changed to Susan but is the same age. George Henry states they had 4 children and none died so I presume Eliza became Susan. While Lys is in fact Louisa.
There was a very large age gap in their marriage as from family accounts I know that George Henry died a very old man during the 1920's while Louisa was still living well in to the 1950's. Form seeing the pattern of how he changed his age over the censuses I believe that George Henry may have been born before 1845 so the age gap may have been even greater. Louisa would have been 20/21 years old when she married while George Henry would have been about 50 years old, possibly even older. Thanks for your interest.
Best wishes,
Bosuns Call
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I am wondering if the George Henry you have found on earlier censuses is actually a different person - you say they indicate that he may have been over 50 when married. But that seems unlikely given he is 49 on 1901, and you say 51 in 1911 (have you seen the image or just a transcription? could it be 59?).
I am wondering how you got from this to the idea that his
parents were James and Susannah, if the George son of J & S is of a different age, and no mariage cert with a dads name on it as yet!
Anyway - here is 1901, which from what you say is definitely him, so a good place to work from.
RG13 2486 101 10
Hurstley, Letton
George 49 Gardener bn Kinnersley
Luis 27 bn St Deveraux (indexed Lys, but image says Luis)
Isabel 4 bn Hurstley
Eliza 1 bn Hurstley
I have been trying to find birth reg of Isabel and Eliza(Susan), as their birth certs would give mums maiden name, and help with finding the marriage, tho yuo do already have their brothers so maybe not much help.
But no Isabel Price around that time in Weobley reg District!
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Bit of a sidetrack, but you never know what will be useful
Here is Louisa with her family in 1881
Rg11 2597 96 6
Criseley House St Devereux
James 36 Shoemaker and farmer bn Callow
Eliza 40 bn Callow
Emily 11 bn Much Dewchurch
Ada 8 bn Much Dewch.
Elizabeth 7 bn MD
Louisa 5 bn St Dev
MAry J 4 bn St Dev
Sarah Ann 1 bn St Dev
William 5mths bn St Dev
in 1891 Louisa is not with them
Horse shoe, Much Dewchurch
James 46 shoemaker bn Calow
Eliza 47 bn Twyford
Mary J 14 bn St Dev
Sarah A 10 bn St Dev
does you grandad's birth cert JUST say mum was Louisa Price nee Vale? No hint of another name, a previous marriage?
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In 1891
Louisa is a servant in a big house with lots of servants
at RG12 4570 55 8, over the Welsh border at
St Davids, Llanspiddyd, Breconshire
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When was Isobel born though? On the 1901 and 1911, Isobel and Elizas ages seem to have flipped around, and there is an Isobel Annie Price bn in Weobley dist in Dec qtr 1899, also I might be tempted to get the birth cert for Susan Lucy Price bn in Weobly reg dist in Mar qtr 1897
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Aha
1891 shows how you got to James and Susan!
Also makes a previous marriage for George less likely, as he was single in 1891
RG12 2067 95 1
Hurstley Letton
James Price 86 gardener bn Stanton
Susan 84 bn Shrobdox?
Sarah 45 dtr unm
George 40 unm son farmer bn Kinnersley
Oh - good find spidermonkey. Looks like they got the girls names the wrong way round in 1901 !
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Hi lizdb. Thanks for your help. I joined the 1911 census site and I paid the credits and downloaded a JPG file of both census returns. George does claim he's 51. He states he's a farm labourer and has been given the occupational code of 140 'Agricultural Labourers, Farm Servants - Not otherwise distinguished'. George Henry does seem to claim to be younger and younger at each census return. I can only assume that at his age by 1911, say in reality he's at least 66 years old, would he not lie about his age to keep his employment and have a roof over his head for his family? Or am I barking up the wrong tree thinking about ageist employers?
I think George Henry must have been quite illiterate as he seemed barely able to write his own signature, so perhaps that made him distrust those in authority and giving a true age?
You're correct, on granddad's birth certificate it does state Louisa Price formerly Vale. Thanks, I didn't know she'd been in service.
Thanks Spidermonkey, Isabel Annie Price was granddad's sister.
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I also know that granddad's brother was Thomas Arthur Price born in the Oct qtr of 1905. He was killed, so the family story goes by a runaway horse, but however it happened he did die in his early 20's in Canberra, Australian Capital Territory. I don't want to post too much on that as I plan to mention it in the Australian section and I've read the rules that you aren't allowed to double post?
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As I understand the rules, you shouldn't post identical threads, but if you posted the story on the Australia board you should include a link back to this thread (and any other associated threads) just so people dont spend hours looking for info you already have!
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You can have a gold star for being concientious and reading the rules!
Double posting about the same query is very annoying, as people can spend a lot of time looking something up only to find someone else has spent a lot of time looking the very same thing up on a different post.
But Thomas born 1905 and dying in Australia shouldnt invlolve the same research (about his death anyway) as this thread, where we have been trying to find out where if any the George/Louisa marriage went to.
You can always link the threads - so when you do your one about Thomas in Australia you can say that census info on his parents etc has alreasdy been found on ... and then cut and paste the URL (is that what it is called? I am not very good technically, but the http:/www ...etc thingy) from this thread into it.
Then folk wont look waste theri time looking up all these same censuses etc that we have done on here. That is when it gets annoying!
As far as this thread goes, it really doesnt look as if Geirge and Louisa married, does it?
We can only suggest getting Isabel or Susan's birth cert to see what thatsays about Louisa, in case thee is a previous shortlived marriage for her, thus meaning she married George Price with a surname other than Vale.
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[incidently, it looks like there was a Thomas A Price (Green Lane, Staunton on Wye)aged 24, who sailed to Freemantle from Southampton on 28th May 1930 on the Hobsons Bay. Is this one yours?]
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Yes, it is my great uncle Thomas! Thanks Spidermonkey. :D
Thomas must have been killed in 1930/31 then, as I'm led to believe he was only in Australia for a few months before his death. Thank you very much Spidermonkey.
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Thank you very much for all the help you've given lizdb and Spidermonkey. It's greatly appreciated. :)
I must admit Spidermonkey has really got me thinking about whether they even got married in the first place. Was it a common practice?
If Louisa had been previously married/widowed would George's birth certificate have mentioned maiden name and widow's surname? Sorry, I'm just thinking out aloud. I think I shall need to get hold of one of my great aunts birth certificates. If they state the same as granddad's then I can probably assume that they weren't officially married.
Thanks again for all your help!
Best wishes,
Bosuns Call
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It always surprises me at how flexible society was in regard to marriage then, but if you were an ag lab with little money and very few holidays you didn't necessarily have the time or money to get married
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3 of Louisa'a sisters are married at St Devereux but no sign of her there.
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Children of George Price and Louisa [nee Vale]
Susan Lucy 1896
Isabelle Annie 1899
George James 1901
Thomas A 1905
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Hi Puffcat,
Thank you very much for all your help and searching. :)
Best wishes,
Bosuns Call
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I didn't want to start a new thread and to be honest I wouldn't be sure of where to post it anyway! Instead I thought it was relevant enough to post in this thread. :)
Next week I'm intending to pay a visit to the Herefordshire Archive Service in Harold Street. I have been to their website but I was hoping to clarify a few issues on here.
I've never been to an archive office before so I know I have to register for a ticket. Once I've registered will I be able to search the records and use the facilities or do I have to wait for a certain period?
Being a newbie at this has anyone got any advice to offer and is there anything in particular I need to be aware of? All suggestions will be gratefully received! ;D
Best wishes,
Bosuns Call
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I have never been to that particualar record office, but based on my visits to Sussex, Surrey and Essex here are some tips:
Have a good read of website first.
Sometimes it is a good idea to phone before you go to reserve a fiche/film reader - Record Offices vary on this.
At some you have to reserve a parking place if needed too, or find out in advance where you can park - dont waste yuor precious day driving round looking fora car park!
Once you have got your "readers ticket" (takes about 30 seconds!) you can go off and search.
Take identification with you in order to get the ticket. Once youve got it, it lasts for years so you dont have to do that every time.
Take a pencil or two and plenty of paper.
Think ahead of what you want to look at, so you dont waste time.
Dont be afraid to ask the staff - they are usually very helpful
The time will fly past.
Remember with Family History that every question you answer raises at least two more, and every thing you find means you need to search for at least two more .....
most of all - enjoy
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Hi lizdb,
Thank you for the advice! The parking I'm sorted for already, just got a nice long walk.
At this moment, I'm thinking my first task will be to look at the 1930/31 Hereford Times obituaries in the hope of finding a mention of Thomas A Price.
I would also like to look at the Kinnersley Church records in the hope of finding a mention of the birth of George Henry Price, especially as there's no sign of a birth certificate. And from there who knows? I expect what I do find will bring up more confusing questions than answers, but I just hope I can find something or some mention of them.
I'm terribly unorganised. :-[ I don't think I could guarantee either time or day of visiting so I will just hope that there's a fiche/film reader free to use during the time I'm there. I would hate to reserve a reader and then not be able to get there at that time and so stop some other person from using it.
I am really looking forward to searching and finding some mention of my famliy. Thanks again.
Best wishes,
Bosuns Call
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Hi Bosuns Call,
Hereford use the CARN system so once you get a card you can use it at certain other record offices. All you need is your driving licence or passport. It is far better if you can fix a time/day because the fiche and film readers can get booked quickly. You might want to check whether the archives hold the Hereford Times for the obit, because Hereford Library also holds copies of the Hereford Times (different date periods)
Best wishes,
Spidermonkey
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Hi Spidermonkey,
Thank you for the info. I do hold a driving licence card so I'm OK for proof of identity.
Best wishes,
Bosuns Call.
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Well I did make it to the records office today but only for a short while. I was amazed at how busy it was! I didn't book a reader this time as I couldn't guarantee going today but I shall definitely book one for next time. Fortunately for me the staff were very helpful and I got to use a film reader even though they were all fully booked!
Unfortunately that's where all my good luck ends. I had hoped, even wished that I would have a bit of beginners luck! I was going to go looking for my great granddad George Henry straight away but I thought I should be a bit more methodical.
Despite having a copy of my granddad's birth certificate I double checked and looked at the Letton parish records. I found George James (granddad) baptised on 24 Nov 1901 and his parents were given as George Henry and Louisa Price. So that tallies all in. I found his brother Thomas Arthur baptised 29 Oct 1905 with the same parents. His sister Isabelle Annie baptised 24 Sep 1899. Then I found Eliza/Susan Lucy. In the parish records she was baptised as Elsie Susan 28 Feb 1897, again with the same parents.
I then looked for the film for the Kinnersley parish records but there are none. So I got to look at the actual parish records themselves! Failure. No George Henry Price born in Kinnersley in 1845, nor a decade before or after. I found his brother, James Price baptised 5 Nov 1843 with James Price recorded as the father and Susanna as the mother. James snr. was listed as a gardener.
No Price's listed in 1845. I'm not sure if I found George Henry's brother Arthur as shown in the censuses. I found an Arthur Price baptised 14 Feb 1847 with James Price given as the father and listed as a gardener. The mother was given as Anne. Could this be James' wife who on the censuses referred to herself as Susan, Susanh and Susanah, whilst being listed as Susanna on James' baptism?
I didn't have time to check the Shobdon parish records where the family were previously but that would make George Henry a lot older than he claimed and on all censuses he stated he was born in Kinnersley. I shall still check the Shobdon records, along with those for burial records for Staunton-On-Wye where he is buried. Even if he is recorded and it states he was born in Kinnersley I'm no farther forwards am I?
On the freeBMD I couldn't find George Henry's birth, marriage or death certificate. The superintendent registrar couldn't find his birth certificate either. Now I find there is not even a parish record of his baptism? He's like a man who never was. My mind is running down all avenues.
To compound the mystery for myself, as I got to see the actual parish book, I saw for Arthur's baptism 'George' had been written in, then blotted out before the ink dried and Arthur written over the top. Could George and Arthur be twins? I'm clutching at straws here.
The entry below Arthur was a baptism for a 'George' 21 Feb 1847 but he was listed as a 'Bastard, son of Mary Anne Bury, a single woman from Leominster.' Coincidence and no connection at all?
I don't have a clue what to do next after looking at the Shobdon/Staunton parish records. How can I carry on following the line with James and his wife if I can't even find George Henry? As I say, he's like the man who never was. ???
Best wishes,
Bosuns Call
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There is a death for a George Henry Price in August 1936 aged 84 in the Weobley District.
This would make GH born in 1852.
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In 1851 James and Susanah are in Kinnersley as follows:
James PRICE 40
Susanna aged 40
Sara aged 13
James aged 8
George aged 6
Arthur aged 4
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Hi Puffcat,
Thank you very much for finding the death. That opens another can of worms doesn't it? Excuse another pun but he had some brass didn't he? To claim he was born in 1852 when he's on the 1851 census as a 6 year old!
1851 Census.
HO107/1979 Folio 81 Page 5
Dog Kennel, Kinnersley
James Price 40 Head. Gardener born Staunton-On-Arrow
Susanah Price 40 Wife born Shobdon
Sarah Price 13 Daughter born Shobdon
George Price 6 Son born Kinnersley
Aurther Price 4 Son born Kinnersley
James Price 8 Son born Kinnersley
He always did get younger by the year. It's very satisfying to at least know there is a death registered if not a birth. Thank you once again.
Best wishes,
Bosuns Call
Sorry Puffcat, I just see you beat me to it!
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James Price from Kingsland married Susanna Wall in Eardisland in 1835, they have a son James born in June 1843 in Bodenham
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Maybe worth looking at the original in case its 6 m for months badly written.
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The Death Certificate may be interesting.
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Hi Puffcat,
Thanks for all the help and info. I have a jpeg copy of the 1851 census and it states 6 not 6 months but why James at 8 years old is listed at the bottom I don't know?
I shall double check the Staunton-On-Wye burials next week at the records office and order the death certificate.
Kingsland and Eardisland? Not Staunton-On-Arrow and Shobdon? I would never have thought of looking outside those locations. It just goes to show how much I have to learn about genealogy! Thanks again.
Best wishes,
Bosuns Call
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They could easily have been working in those Parishes but they are all very close.
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If you go to the Hugh Wallis Counties in England you can look in the parish records where they are available on the IGI which makes Prices a little less of a problem - but not much ::)
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hughwallis/IGIBatchNumbers/CountryEngland.htm
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Thanks for the link Puffcat. Yes, all those parishes are only a stones throw away from each other.
Best wishes,
Bosuns Call
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I came across a Price family in Orleton a while ago. I thought they might have been some of mine but they weren't. I can't remember forenames.
Also found Vales in Richards Castle in the 1861 Census. There's a Louisa on that born c.1854. Is she one of yours?
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There's some connection between my Price/Watkins lot from Canon Pyon, Burghill, Wellington and the Vales. I still haven't found it.
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Hi Ozlady,
Sorry, that's not my Louisa Vale. My Vale's come from the Allensmore/Callow/Grafton/Much Dewchurch/St. Devereux side of Herefordshire. All within stone throwing distances of each other.
My Price ancestors as far as I know, which is not a lot, are all from the Leominster side of Herefordshire. There are a lot of Price's in Hereford.
Best wishes,
Bosuns Call
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I am stumped now. I went to the records office in Harold Street today to continue searching for my great granddad George Henry. As I've said previously I couldn't find his birth in the Kinnersley Parish Records.
As the family had previously lived in Shobdon I searched the film records for the parish. I found George's older sister Sarah Ann baptised 2 Apr 1837, the daughter of James and Susanna Price. The family abode was listed as Kinnersley and the trade of James was given as gardener.
I found a further baptism in Shobdon for James and Susanna Price. This was for a Robert Price baptised 17 Oct 1835. The family abode was listed as Kinnersley. James' trade was given as 'Hired Servant by a Gardener'. There was an 'X' next to Robert's name and at the foot of the page the clerk had written "X This child was born in the parish of Shobdon, but the father was living at the time as a hired servant in the parish of Kinnersley."
I got my hopes up, with all my ancestors happy to change and play about with their names could Robert be George Henry? Sadly no. I found a burial 17 Mar 1836 for a Robert Price aged 5 months. The abode was listed as East Hampton in th parish of Shobdon.
So there is no baptism whatsoever in Kinnersley or Shobdon for a George Henry Price. A very helpful woman working at the records office tried to see what she could find but ended up as stumped as me! None of James and Susanna's children had their birth registered. Even though it was not compulsory at the time it is very unusual for none of them to have been registered. Along with the absence of a baptism for George Henry she found the whole situation very strange. I do too!
There are no records for George Henry apart from the possible death certificate that Puffcat kindly found. Unfortunately the Staunton-On-Wye burials end at 1926 but I did discover the day of the burial registered, 9 Aug 1936 and it's the only burial that remotely fits. George is recorded as 84 years old when he died so, if the lies about his age were perpetuated until after his death I'm not too hopeful about the rest of the certificate holding any truths.
However crazy it sounds, it does seem that George Henry was not baptised and neither did he marry Louisa Vale. With the eternal threat of hell fire and brimstone I'm wondering why George Henry was not baptised? Was he illegitimate? But there are plenty of those who are still given baptisms. Is there any other kind of reason for not performing a baptism?
Best wishes,
Bosuns Call
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I havent read the whole thread through, but just have a couple of comments on poiunts in your last post.
1) If the parents were non conformists they wouldnt necessarily have the child christened. Unlikely in this case as you have found that the siblings were, but possible that they went through a phase of attending chapel, and that was at the time of George's birth
2) More likely, I think your clue is in the fact that at Sarah's christeneing there is the mention that the child waas born one place, but dad was hired out as a grdener elsewhere at the time. It seems likely that, if this was the nature of dads work, that he could have been hired somewhere other than Kinnerlsey or Shobden at the time of George's chrisitening and therefore it is in a parish other than those two, but probably within the area.
Have you checked all neighbouring parishes?
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Hi lizdb,
Thank you for mentioning that, as I hadn't even thought about chapel! What I can't understand is that my granddad was a God fearing by the book sort of man. All the family had some sort of connection of working for all the local churches. They did attend chapel but they also went to church too. Granddad was a bell ringer for many years. So it doesn't make sense that his dad wasn't baptised at all.
I have checked the births in Letton and Staunton-On-Wye but no sign of George Henry there. There are probably hundreds of hamlets and villages between Kinnersley and Shobdon but I will keep searching. I just wish the surname had been unusual, if only to be more confident of my findings and to rule out sheer coincidence.
Using Genuki I found an extract from the 1876-7 Littlebury's Directory and Gazetteer of Herefordshire where in the commercial section a Price Jas? (James?) is listed as head gardener for T. Reavely, Esq., J.P., D.L. (Kinnersley castle), Hurstley. I'm wondering if that's my great great granddad James and if so how much of his working life did he spend at Kinnersley castle?
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/HEF/Letton/Littlebury1876.html
That's my only clue so far, if indeed it is one, of where James may possibly have worked as a gardener.
Best wishes,
Bosuns Call
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Kinnersley Castle is still a private house and there may be records of former staff there. Worth asking perhaps ?
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Have you found James and Susanna and baby Sarah in the 1841 Census ?
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Hi Puffcat,
Yes I may have to either get in touch with Kinnersley Castle or perhaps find some more info at the City library.
I have found the 1841 census for James, Susanna and Sarah Ann.
It's Class: HO107 Piece: 426 Folio: 13 Page: 4
They're living in Shobdon. James is a 35 year old gardener. Susannah is a 35 year old Susan, while Sarah is 4 years old. James is recorded on this census but he would have been working in Kinnersley at the time.
Best wishes,
Bosuns Call
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I did start researching the PRICE family tree a few months ago but I moved on to my ancestors with the more uncommon surnames as I could just not be sure of any of my findings.
One piece of information I completely forgot about until today, as I couldn't prove a link was this. I started searching for Sarah Ann Price, my granddad's great aunt who raised him. I couldn't find her in the 1871 census. I did eventually find a Sarah Price in Shobdon in the 1871 census:
Class: RG10 Piece: 2719 Folio: 51 Page: 21
Thomas Price 57 Head. Ag Lab born Staunton-On-Arrow
Catherine Price 70 Wife born Orleton
Sarah Price 31 Niece. Unmarried, servant (formerly), born Shobdon.
Could this Sarah be my granddad's great aunt? This would makes Thomas the uncle of George Henry and the brother of James, if only I could find a connection between the two. I think this means lots more trips to Harold Street! ;D
Best wishes,
Bosuns Call
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If you look up James and Susanna on the 1881 Census you will find:
James PRICE Head M aged 73 Born Staunton hereford Gardener
Susan PRICE Wife M aged 71 born Presteign Radnorshire
George PRICE Son U aged 37 born Kinnersley Farmer
Sarah Ann PRICE Daugher U aged 40 born Shobdon Hereford
living at Hurstley Letton
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I meant to add - it does look as though they are brothers both born Staunton.
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Another thought - I have family roots extremely close to where yours are and have found when I rang that some records are only available through the leominster office as it holds different records - it also holds the records for most of the chapels in north Hereford. i have family living in brilley who for some reason ( could be to do with the chapel) are christened in Old Radnor Chapel meaning they had to travel 7 miles + and pass 2 or 3 other chapels to bget there . so don't just look at the nearest chapels registers . also be aware that the chapel circuits changed and merged .
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If you look up James and Susanna on the 1881 Census you will find:
James PRICE Head M aged 73 Born Staunton hereford Gardener
Susan PRICE Wife M aged 71 born Presteign Radnorshire
George PRICE Son U aged 37 born Kinnersley Farmer
Sarah Ann PRICE Daugher U aged 40 born Shobdon Hereford
living at Hurstley Letton
Thanks Puffcat and that 1881 census just goes to show the changeability of Susanna. One minute she's Susan, then Susanna, possibly Anne too. At least she stuck with being born in Shobdon until this census and out of the blue we get Presteign? How that fits in I don't know as by 1891 she's back to being born in Shobdon.
Best wishes,
Bosuns Call
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Hi vic1,
Thank you for that information. I wasn't aware that Leominster kept any records, so that might be the next place to try and find some answers.
Best wishes,
Bosuns Call
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I think that vic1 is referring to the Register Office records not the Records Ofice. The ones for north Herefordshire are mostly in Leominster these days, but not entirely,
The Register Offices hold the Births deaths and marriage copy certificates while the Records Office in Hereford holds the Ecclestiastical records.
Certainly some copy certificates might help unravel this.
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The leominster chapel circuit records are held in leominster as well ,as are the weobley ones and the kington ones. I know this as I went to the records office specifically to, look at these and was told they were held in Leominster . they also hold copies of the north edition of the hereford times. . ~The archivist at Hereford has checked this for me as my family is well entwined with the weobley chapel circuit going right back to my great grandfather x 5 being shot at in 1804 . a nd i wanted to research them in depth. I will get there this summer holiday ( I only live in Hereford but have had a stress ful year or so ) this how i know leominster holds a small amount of records. however they tell me they do not hold complete records as sometimes happen with chapels . Also when i wanted certificates they referred me to the office where registration had taken place from Hereford so i had to ring the local office in kington and a very nice man found the entry i wanted immediately and it was in my familys posssession in less than 15 minutes which is a good job as the office is only open 1 day a week. so youn need to do some phoning before setting out to find out where you need to go. :)
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I've now spoken with the parish vicar and I can confirm that Puffcat was correct about finding the registration of my great granddad's death.
George Henry Price died 9 Aug 1936 at Green Lane, Staunton-On-Wye and he was buried at St. Mary's at Staunton-On-Wye on 12 Aug 1936.
His wife Louisa Price was also buried at St. Mary's on 8 Jan 1953 but no sign of this on the FreeBMD.
Now that I know this is my great granddad's death certificate I shall order a copy. I know the date of birth is incorrect on the certificate but it might give a different place of birth. It shall be interesting to see what else I can learn from the certificate.
Best wishes,
Bosuns Call
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I received a copy of George Henry Price's death certificate in the post today. No joy there for me. Date and place were confirmed as previously mentioned. His occupation was listed as Gardener (domestic) and cause of death was 1 [a] Myocardial degeneration and Senility. In other words he died of old age which was given as 84 but he must have been about 91 years old in 1936.
Granddad George J R Price also living at Green Lane was the informant but no mention is given to the place of birth of George Henry.
I've had a run of luck researching the Hyett family while the Price family have proved difficult. I think for now I shall try and research other family members and come back to this puzzle when I've learned a few more genealogical skills. It's sad but I have to face the fact that I can't find George Henry. At least this scrap of paper proves that George Henry was real.
Best wishes,
Bosuns Call
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A long shot perhaps, but Kinnersley and Shobdon, as George's father is working at Kinnersley Castle, is he also working on another estate owned by the same family in or near Shobdon ?
And if he is a skilled gardener did he move somewhere else for a while for the same family perhaps, and George Henry was born in Shropshire or Radnorshire ?
There must have been a reason to work between the 2 places because it is an awfully long commute with roads so poor at this time !!
Just a thought.
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Hi Puffcat,
I too am puzzled by the movement of James Price. Being born in Staunton-On-Arrow and marrying Susannah from nearby Shobdon makes perfect sense. Being employed as a 'hired servant' in work at Kinnersley Castle while living in Shobdon makes little sense unless he was already employed by the same family, or some other similar situation in Shobdon.
Funny that you should mention Shropshire. I find George Henry in the Kinnersley area in the 1851 census and in the 1881 census but I have trouble finding him in the intervening two census returns.
In the 1871 census I did find for Totterton Hall, Lydbury North, Shropshire a George Henry Price:
Class: RG10 Piece: 2733 Folio: 26 Page: 4
This George Henry Price is stated as being a 24 year old footman, born in Herefordshire. I do wonder if this could be my great-granddad?
This was the census report:
Emily Augusta Parry 30 Wife born Balham, Surrey
Mary MacDonald Parry 9 daughter born Bath, Somerset
Emily MacDonald Parry 7 daughter born Bath, Somerset
Thomas MacDonald Parry 5 son born Hereford, Herefordshire
Lidnes Carew McDonald Parry 4 son born Hereford, Herefordshire
Grace MacDonald Parry 3 daughter born Lydbury North, Shropshire
Lucy Hannah 38 Governess born Bath, Somerset
Mary Ann Solomon 35 Cook born Cardiganshire
Emily Annie Jarvis 26 Head Nurse born Wiltshire
Sarah Jones 20 Under Nurse born Bala, Merionithshire
Catharine Thomas 23 House Maid born Bala, Merionithshire
George Henry Price 24 Foot Man born Hereford, Herefordshire
So I thought I would do some detective work. I thought if I could trace either of the two Parry sons on census I could find out where in Herefordshire the Parry family lived and if my great-granddad could be connected to the area.
Looking in the 1881 census I found Lidnes Carew McDonald Parry as Sidney Carew McDonald Parry, wrongly listed as Sidney Carew Noradward Parry.
In the census Class: RG11 Piece: 2650 Folio: 77 Page: 15 for Parsonage House, Shropshire, Sidney is a boarder and scholar who lists his place of birth as Kinnersley, Hereford.
Continuing with the 1881 census I found Thomas MacDonald Parry as Thomas M Parry a boarder/scholar at Llantrissant House, Clifton, Gloucestershire. The census is Class: RG11 Piece: 2483 Folio: 15 Page: 26 and Thomas is wrongly listed as being born at Kinnersley Cote as on the census return itself it records as his being born at Kinnersley Castle!
With James being the gardener of Kinnersley Castle I believe this would mean that this George Henry Price is indeed my great-granddad.
Out of interest I though I would track the Parry family further back so I looked for them in the 1861 census and found them at Walcot St. Saviour, Somerset Class: RG9 Piece: 1692 Folio: 62 Page: 8
Thomas M Parry 21 Head Landholder born Argylshire, Scotland
Emily Parry 20 Wife born St Mary's Cay, Kent
John MacDonald 40 Uncle Landholder born Argyleshire, Scotland
Hannah Webb 39
James Pike 15
William Janlas 20
This all helps build a picture but it still doesn't help me get any nearer to discovering the birth place of George Henry Price. It does prove though that I've definitely been bitten by this genealogy bug! ;D
Best wishes,
Bosuns Call
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Did this family rent Kinnersley Castle I wonder, and also the place in Shropshire? The parents seem to have dropped off the radar by 1881 unless I am being obtuse. But well done, that was fascinating bit of detective work.
Parry senior certainly collected staff from all over the place, and how far is Argyll to Kent for a wife ???
Still think Kinnersley Castle could hold the answer if they still have any records or the records are in the Recods Office.
Even big houses were rented out at this time and had a big turnover of occupiers.
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Hi Puffcat,
I believe I've found Emily Augusta Parry in the 1881 census but she is listed as Edith A Parry. The census is Class: RG11 Piece: 2442 Folio: 31 Page: 14 and she is living at 8 Portland Place, Walcot, Bath.
Edith A. Parry 38 Widow Receiver Of Dividends born Balham, Surrey
Mary M. Parry 19 daughter born Bath, Somerset
Emily M. Parry 17 daughter born Argyleshire
Grace M. Parry 13 daughter born Shropshire
Mary A. Soloman 48 Cook Domestic Servant born Wales
Eliza Gamblin 17
Lavinia White 22
The family employed the same cook in the previous census.
I've also found her in the 1891 census, still in the Walcot, Bath region Class: RG12 Piece: 1937 Folio 146 Page 22
Emily A M Parry 50 Head Widow living on own means born Balham, Surrey
Grace M Parry 23 daughter born Lydbury, Shropshire
Augusta G Fearon 61 Lodger born Madras, India
In the 1901 census Class: RG13 Piece: 1039 Folio: 132 Page: 3 Emily A Parry is aged 60 and living in Bournemouth with her brother a retired army Colonel. I can't make out his name, could be George A Strover? It looks like Ldm in the one section for Emily, so would that make her a lunatic and dumb?
I can't find either of the sons after 1881. I'm guessing they either died or emigrated.
If the family had sufficient funds to rent Kinnersley Castle, Totterton Hall and properties in Bath too, then they probably rented land in Kent/Surrey. Possibly they rented land all over Herefordshire and that's why James Price was working in Shobdon?
I'm now definitely going to write a snail mail letter to the present owners of Kinnersley Castle to ask if they hold any records of the staff of this time period. It would be great to build up a picture of their working lives.
Best wishes,
Bosuns Call
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It does look as though Emily's maiden name was Strover.
Maybe James was part of the Garden Makeover fashion of this part of the C19. Some of the large houses in Herefordshire and around were landscaping their grounds with trees and so on at this time.
Going back to George's birth - his Mum was born in Radnorshire. Do you think she might have gone home to Mum to have George if perhaps it was a difficult pregnancy, James was working away, or the other kids were driving her mad ? There are 3 possibilities on Free BMD, 2 in Presteigne and 1 in Hay. Worth a phone call to Register Office perhaps ?
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Hi Puffcat,
The birth and identity of George's Mum is just as confusing as her son.
1891 census she is Susan born Shobdon.
1881 census she is Susan born Presteign, Radnorshire.
1871 census she is Susanah born Presteign, Radnorshire.
1861 census she is Susan born Staunton-On-Arrow.
1851 census she is Susanah born Shobdon.
While in the Kinnersley parish records she was recorded as Susanna in 1843 and Anne in 1847.
Name changing does seem to be a common theme for some family members which is worrying. George Henry's daughter, my great aunt Elsie Susan, was also known as Eliza, Susan Lucy and she was Lucy to my family. So in the end she went by a completely different name. I do fear that George Henry was christened under another name. When it comes to names I think they must have changed their minds constantly. As I've mentioned previously, when I looked at the Kinnersley parish records themselves and I found the baptism of Arthur 14 Feb 1847 the paper was damaged as you could clearly see that the name George had been written in then the ink soaked up and the name scrubbed out to be replaced by Arthur. With the family already having one son named George why name another son George? That makes me worry that perhaps George Henry was baptized under a different name.
If I were to apply to the Register Office, which one would it be? I know Hay like the back of my hand but I also know it's a dog's dinner when placing it under the relevant authorities. Over the years of course it has come under the authority of Brecknockshire, Radnorshire, Herefordshire and Powys. Even now the postcodes are HR for Herefordshire but depending upon which side of Cusop/Clyro you live then Brecon, Leominster (Hereford) and Llandod can all have a claim on Hay and that region. So I'm completely lost when it comes to applying for BMD certificates in that region.
Come to think of it, does anyone know where the Records Office is for the old Radnorshire district? If I search the parish records first I could save myself a small fortune. ;D
Best wishes,
Bosuns Call
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I am not sure if all their Records are centralised or not, but Presteigne comes under the Knighton Office and Hay has its own. If not its central at Llandrindod Wells I assume.
If a family lost a baby years ago they would re-use the name, perhaps several time with child mortalilty so high. Someone told me recently that his family had a baby and baptised it William as the 2 year old William was ill and not expected to live, but did and the family ended up with 2 Williams!!
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A possible link for Shobdon with Kinnersley area.
Shobdon Court had a parterre made in 1860ish by William Andrews Nesfield. He also did works at Broxwood Court, Nieuport, Garnstone all close to Kinnersley, and other places like Stoke Edith, Willey Hall, all designs on parkland.
Look him up on Google and see if you think this is a possibility.
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Hi Puffcat,
Thank you for the information on both counts. :)
I've jut done a quick google on William Andrews Nesfield. There are a lot of links and info online. Eat your heart out Capability Brown! Time to do some in-depth reading. Thanks again.
Best wishes,
Bosuns Call
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Seems that James was not a general gardener tidying up the flower beds but possibly assisting in laying out the grand schemes the wealthy Victorians were having laid out.
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Apologies if this has been mentioned - my sister has sent me the link as we are researching Prices of Kinnersley - a different lot probably.
Have you seen this?
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/HEF/Letton/Littlebury1876.html
Jas Price mentioned as Head Gardener at Kinnersley Castle.
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Hi mrsspringfield,
It has already been mentioned but not to worry. An extra pair of eyes and input is always welcome! :)
If you are researching the Price's of Kinnersley by any chance are you related to the family of Price's that have very intriguing forenames like 'Pammelia'? If so then I do envy you in some ways. If the surname is more common like ours, it is nice to have an uncommon forename to track down. It at least narrows down the odds of finding the correct Price ancestor.
As you can tell by reading this thread I'm having difficulties just pinning down my great-granddad George Henry and linking him to the rest of my ancestors.
Best wishes,
Bosuns Call
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That's the one! In some ways it's made it easier because it was a family name and is so unusual. On the other hand we've found about 8 spellings so you can't use it to search.
Maybe it will turn out that we are linked in some way.
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I noticed it recently as Permelia and was amazed as I have a Permelen, born around 1797 in Worcestershire.
Have never seen the name or anything similar before
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As mentioned a couple of times, James Price in down in 1876 Littlebury's Directory, but he is also in the Jakeman and Carver Directory of 1890 as head gardener to Reavley at Kinnersley Castle and livng at Hurstley Letton [land also aowned by Reavley as Lord of the Manor]. He must have been an old man by then.
But on the 1895 Kelly's Directory of Herefordshire it is George Price of Hurstley who is down as Head Gardener to Thomas Reavely.
JAmes died aged 87 in December 1890
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Hi Puffcat,
Thank you for the information. It's nice to see that much documentation for James and a date for his death. At last there are signs of a paper trail for George. I didn't know that George was also a "head" gardener.
I am really intrigued now about the lack of a marriage. It would have been about 1895 when George would have married Louisa (if they did marry) and in the 1901 census he was still listed as a gardener. Holding that position I would have thought his employer would have expected him to marry? As he's a gardener, a skilled job why did he find the need to lie about his age, especially if he were a head gardener able to delegate the more physically demanding jobs? More questions to think about. ;D
Best wishes,
Bosuns Call
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Is there any chance either of them left Wills?
Regarding the Directories, you had to be a way up the pecking order in a Village to be listed in these. So the Head Gardener for Mr Reavely was obviously 'someone'.
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Hi Puffcat,
I've never really considered either of them leaving a will but perhaps George left one. Would the Hereford RO be the place to see if either left a will?
It does make more sense with James and George having been head gardeners and with George marrying Louisa Vale and her being the daughter of a farmer and shoemaker. That's why I find the lack of a marriage so puzzling, especially as you found the marriages of three of her sisters.
The marriage isn't listed in the FreeBMD. I just feel I'm missing something that's staring me right in the face. I know lizdb has mentioned the possibility of their being non conformist but the rest of their families seem to have remained C of E. I had given up on finding a marriage between George and Louisa. Perhaps they did marry after all?
Best wishes,
Bosuns Call
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I haven't been on this site for a while so I thought I'd better update this thread! I'll break the info down into several posts.
In the spring I wrote a snail mail letter to Kinnersley Castle all about George Henry and James asking if they had any information or documents from this time concerning the Price family with the castle. Sadly I haven't so far received a reply.
Best wishes,
Bosuns Call
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One breakthrough for me has been to find letters written to the Price family.
One correspondence is from a Phillip Budd to James Price. The letter was dated January 15th 1880. Phillip Budd informs his friend James that his son (who I take to be George Henry's brother Arthur) has died on Tuesday 13th January. He was to be buried quickly on Friday 16th January as his body was in a very bad state. Phillip Budd gave his address as M__th Wood. I was unable to decipher the middle part of the name. The evelope was franked on January 14th at Tenbury and on the reverse the evelope had been stamped at Shrewsbury and Hereford, both on January 15th.
A second letter I have was written on July 3rd 1877. It is a letter written from a John WALL to his sister Susannah (so that confirms that George Henry's dad James did marry Susannah Wall in Eardisland on August 12th 1835). John Wall alluded to the fact that in a previous correspondence Susannah had been enquiring the whereabouts of her son James (George Henry's brother James Thomas, which is why I assume the dead son from the previous letter to be Arthur even though this letter is prior to 1880) as she had not heard from him in many years. John Wall informed her that he had last had contact with James 4 years previously. James had last been heard of in the north of England and John Wall seemed to hint in the letter that James did not wish to be found or contacted but had broken all ties with the family and he did not expect to have contact with him again.
Also in this letter John Wall says that he saw James Price senior on June 8th in Leominster and Susannah was to tell George that John Wall would be at Huntington on July 18th where he would meet up with him. The address of John Wall was given as Rectory Farm, Pudleston. The envelope is franked for Shipley.
Best wishes,
Bosuns Call
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I also have correspondence from a London solicitor addressed to James. They are transcribed as follows:
25 Haverstock Hill, London NW
April 30th 1888
Dear Sir,
I wrote to you on behalf of Mrs. Gill on the 20th instant to inquire if you were still living at the same address but she has not received any reply. If you will kindly send a line by return I shall be glad as Mrs. Gill has something further to communicate but before writing wishes to be sure that the letter will reach you.
I am Dear Sir
Yours faithfully
William Painter
25 Haverstock Hill, London NW
May 2nd 1888
Dear Sir,
Mrs. Gill was glad to receive Mr. Sargents letter on your behalf this morning as she was anxious to hear something from you before communicating the following news. She now desires me to tell you that Mr. Gill died on March 8th after having been very poorly for a long time and by his will has left you £100 free of legacy duty which sum Mrs. Gill as executrix is now prepared to pay. I enclose you a receipt for the money to be signed by you at the place where I have written your name in pencil, having done this if you will return it to me and say how you wish the money to be forwarded I will send it to you accordingly. If Mrs. Gill sent you a crossed cheque for the money you could pay it to your account in any Bank.
I am Dear Sir
Yours faithfully
William Painter
Best wishes,
Bosuns Call
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I also have a family photo. I believe the young man seated to be my great grandfather George Henry as he's the absolute image of my granddad George James. I don't have any clue as to who the other boy is? If he were a brother that would confuse the situation further. George Henry is supposed to be the middle brother but even between James Thomas, George Henry and Arthur there is only a span of 4 years. If that is indeed George Henry with a brother he looks considerably more than 4 years older.
Best wishes,
Bosuns Call
(http://i1033.photobucket.com/albums/a414/emjayh/th_GHP2.jpg) (http://i1033.photobucket.com/albums/a414/emjayh/GHP2.jpg)
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As I haven't received a reply from Kinnersley Castle I sent them an email. It turns out they did send a reply but unfortunately it didn't reach me! The joys of Royal Mail!
Sadly all the old records have gone from Kinnersley Castle but some documents are held at Hereford RO so it looks like another visit there is needed.
It also seems that I'll need to check the marriage of my great great grandfather James Price to my great great grandmother Susannah Wall on the 12th August 1835 at Eardisland as on the IGI Susannah was baptised 14 April 1822!
Their first son Robert was baptised 17th October 1835 in Shobdon so Susannah must have either been heavily pregnant when she walked down the aisle in Eardisland or she was already an unmarried mother.
Susannah's father was I believe a Thomas Wall born in Staunton-On-Arrow. Using the IGI and looking for Susannah and her brother John Wall I found a Thomas and Elizabeth Wall as their parents with Thomas being baptised 18 March 1788. Thomas' parents were given as James and Anne Wall.
My third great grandfather, also James Price was married to Ann Wall in Staunton-On-Arrow 15th Jan 1799. Ann Wall was baptised 20th Jan 1774 in Staunton-On-Arrow. Anne's parents were given as James and Anne Wall. Possibly Thomas and Ann Wall are siblings? This would mean my great great grandparents James Price and Susannah Wall were also first cousins.
Best Wishes,
Bosuns Call