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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) => Topic started by: rob67 on Tuesday 26 May 09 23:29 BST (UK)
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Hi my partners starting her family tree, and need a little help getting started, her grand father Armitage Wilson Halliwell lived and died in Huddersfield, we know he died some time in the 1960's other than that were stuck, if any one can please help, would be very appreciated, many thanks in advance.
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Hi
Was he also born in Huddersfield?
When was he born and who were his parents?
There is nobody of that name on the freebmd birth index or the 1901/1911 census
This is the only birth entry for anybody with those christian names
Births September qtr 1878
Armitage Wilson CUSWORTH Huddersfield 9a 377
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Hi thanks for the quick reply, we have no other information than he was called armitage, also he was married twice, again do not know wives names,just that he died some time in 60's,i will try and get hold of 1 of the relatives see if they know a bit more, again many thanks for replying, Rob
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Hi
Forget Armitage Wilson Cusworth - just found his death in 1880
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lol, not him then, going to ring a family member tomorow hopefully she might know if he is definatley from huddersfield, partners father was born there 1934, as was her aunt and uncle,
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Thanks to that info re: 1934 birth I have found ARMYTAGE W HALLEWELL's birth
Armytage W Hallewell September qtr 1906 Huddersfield
Volume: 9a Page: 285
Marriages March qtr 1932
Alice Bottom Huddersfield 9a 590
Armytage W Halliwell Huddersfield 9a 590
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wow didnt expect any of this, especially not this quick, thought name being quite different would be harder to find out, now she has a start , i hope i can get her back as far as possible, really appreciate this help carole,
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Hi
I have just sent a reply to your pm
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Hi
I know you will have to wait until you get the b/cert for Armytage but I'm reasonably confident this could be his parents
Marriages December qtr 1905
HALLIWELL Herbert Huddersfield 9a 591 to either Annie Leng or Mary Ann Rhodes
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weve gone from just knowing grandfathers name to this, amazing, well hopefully verify parents next few days, Rob
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Another possible marriage for Armi(y)tage's parents
Robert Wilson Hellewell and Charlotte B Netherwood
3rd qrt 1904 Huddersfield vol 9a page 676
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see its the same middle name as Armytage's Wilson wonder if thats were thats from?.
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I'd say it's very likely, Rob
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Do you know if Armitage had a brother named Jack?
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seriously couldnt say, my partner knows nothing about Armytage , just knows Roy had a brother and sister Brian and Joan, :-\
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In 1891 Charlotte, her father, and siblings, were lodging with a family named Bottom. I wonder if they connect to Alice Bottom?
Hannah Bottom age 44, Emma Bottom age 21, James Bottom 19, Agnes Bottom 17, Norman Bottom 13
Annie Bottom 10, Samuel Bottom 5,
Geo Hy Netherwood 37, Annie Elizbeth Netherwood 6, Charlotte Netherwood 4, Emma Netherwood 2
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I think Robert Wilson Helliwell was originally from Saddleworth.
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sorry dissapeard last night Carole, my computer crashed, i see you found a lot of bottoms in 1 house hold, im sending off for Armytage birth this morning,hope we get it before weekend,
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Got to say Carole, that does all tie in dosent it, Robert Charlotte etc lodging with this family,
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Hi Rob
I think it looks a very good bet that the 1904 marriage found by Libby is that of his parents
When you get the birth cert - post details on this thread - don't open a new post - and we can take it from there
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Like to say a big thank you to Libby too, so sorry was late last night didnt notice names had changed,
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Hi ive just got some details regarding Armytage, he did have a brother called Jack who married Lucy m.s? no children
also another brother called William who married Hilda m.s no children
Armytage 2nd wife was called Edith Greenwood, born 6th june year unknown, family member trying to find more records around house?
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Hi Rob
Let's wait until you get his birth cert so we can be 100% certain who his parents were and then we can go backwards from the 1901 census.
The 1911 census is the one that will show Armytage and possibly the odd sibling or 2 but although the index is free - you have to buy credits to view the transcription or the image
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I have finally found him on the 1911 index - transcribed as
SORMYTAGE Halliwell aged 4
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wow, real mispell of his name there, no wonder people are so hard to find,lol, does it still place him in Huddersfiled?
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Yes it does - it also shows a Charlotte Halliwell b 1887 and a Robert b 1886 both living in Huddersfield
No Herbert Halliwell in Huddersfield so I think Libby's marriage is the right one
Go to http://www.1911census.co.uk/search/tnaform.aspx?4
Just use surname Halliwell - nothing else
Under Location select Yorkshire West Riding
Under Residence - insert Huddersfield
Click Search
There are lots of Halliwells but you will see a Jack b 1908 and a Thomas Irvin b 1910
Thomas Irvin Hellawell June qtr 1909 Huddersfield
Volume: 9a Page: 276
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Hi,
I found Sormytage yesterday, sorry I didn't post details but thought you were waiting for the birth cert for proof of parentage. I can say with almost certainty that Robert and Charlotte are his parents, and Jack aged 3 on the census is his brother, I don't think Thomas Irvin was living in the same household, therefore probably not his brother.
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From what I can see Thomas Irvin's parents were Irvin, and Marion Ethel.
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Hi I should be getting Armytages birth cert any day now, whose should i apply for next do you think,
so Robert is from saddleworth, will it still be west riding,
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just looking at that census were, charlotte and father looks like george, was lodging with the Bottoms, i see no father with that family, just Hannah and kids, do you think George and Hannah were more than lodging together,?
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Hi Rob
Once we confirm his parents it should (hopefully) enable us to find the respective families on earlier censuses
Until we start looking - we won't know whether other certs are needed but will let you know as we go along
do you think George and Hannah were more than lodging together,?
Who knows and I bet they won't tell!!
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Hannah Bottom's husband was Mark (see 1881 census www.familysearch.org) and she was nee Barrett.
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Hi ive just received a phone call, from Huddrsfield Registry office, had quite a nice chat with the lady, she couldnt find anything on Armytage w Halliwell, wonderd if you could help,she did suggest if i had a ref number or maybes a different birth place? ::)
Rob
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Hi Rob
Per my earlier reply
Armytage W Hallewell September qtr 1906 Huddersfield
Volume: 9a Page: 285
This is a GRO reference - not a local Registry office reference
His birth was registered sometime between 1st July and 30th September
You need to order online at
www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
Cost is exactly the same - £7
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Hi all, just received Armytages birth certificate,Armytage Wilson Hallewell b:02 august 1906,
Dalton, U.D.
fathers name Robert Hallewell
mother Charlotte Ann Hallewell formerly Brady,
hope this helps us some,
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Hi Rob,
So, according to the birth cert Charlotte's surname was Brady, not Netherwood? I don't understand this, as I am convinced the marriage I found before is the right one, afterall Robert had the same middle name as Armytage (Wilson). I notice Charlotte Netherwood's middle initial was B and wonder if this stands for Brady. There's no marriage registered under Robert Helliwell/ Halliwell etc to a Charlotte Brady.
I'll take a look at census records to see if I can find Robert on early census. According to the 1911 he was born circa 1886.
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Hi Libby thanks for your time in all this, under were it says when and were born, it says 1906 4 water royd,
Dalton U.D any ideas what the U.D stands for?
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So far I've found only one Robert H born circa 1886. Living at Lydgate (I think it's Upper Mill, Holmfirth) in the Colne Valley. All born Colne Valley.
1901 Census.
James Halliwell/50
Elizabeth Halliwell/47
John Halliwell/24
Henry Halliwell/22
Fred Halliwell/20
James Halliwell/17
Robert Halliwell/15
Betsy Halliwell/13
Job Halliwell/10
Anne Halliwell/8
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Hi Rob, U.D. - Urban District.
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Same family 1891.
James Helliwell/40
Elizabeth Helliwell/38
John Helliwell/15
George Harry Helliwell/14
Hervey Helliwell/13
Fred Helliwell/11
James Helliwell/8
Robert Helliwell/5
Betsy Helliwell/3
Job Helliwell/1
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Hi Libby think that could be Robert,
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Hi Libby think that could be Robert,
Hi Robert, if that's not him, I don't know where he is as he's the only Robert H circa 1886.
Does Armytage's birth cert have Robert's occupation?
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Hi yes says he was a general labourer,
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1881. James was a farmer of 6 acres, and carrier. All born Saddleworth.
James Halliwell/30
Elizabeth Halliwell/28
John Halliwell/5
George Halliwell/4
Henry Halliwell/3
Fred Halliwell/3 months
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A possible marriage for James and Elizabeth.
Dec qrt 1874, Saddleworth, vol 9a page 423.
James Halliwell, two possible brides....... ELIZABETH Bentley or Jane Ann Hinchcliffe
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did i see some were before on here, that Robert could have been born in saddleworth?
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Morning Libby :D, were should i go from here do you think,do you think there could be a reason Charlotte dropped netherwood, and started using Brady?
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Hi again, just received Robert and Charlottes marriage cert,year was 1904,Huddersfield, robert wilson hellewell, charlotte brady netherwood, no mention of Roberts parents, but Charlottes father was George Henry Netherwood, Deceased. Roberts profession was a sanitary pipe maker, Charlotte was rug weaver,
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In 1891 Charlotte, her father, and siblings, were lodging with a family named Bottom. I wonder if they connect to Alice Bottom?
Hannah Bottom age 44, Emma Bottom age 21, James Bottom 19, Agnes Bottom 17, Norman Bottom 13
Annie Bottom 10, Samuel Bottom 5,
Geo Hy Netherwood 37, Annie Elizbeth Netherwood 6, Charlotte Netherwood 4, Emma Netherwood 2
Hi again, Rob..................So the census result found earlier seems to be the right Charlotte.
Who were the witnesses to Robert and Charlotte's marriage?
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Hi Libby, yeah looks like same family, any ideas why Roberts father does,nt appear on the marriage, were should we apply for Roberts birth, see if i can get his parents from that? and still cant understand why Charlotte used Brady,
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The only reason I can think of for Robert's father not being on the cert is: he didn't know who his father was, ie born illegitimately. As for Charlotte.................maybe the registrar missed Netherwood off, he may not have heard her say Netherwood, and thought her full name was Charlotte Brady, I can't think of any other reason.
Do you have the names of the witnesses?
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What was Robert's age when he married?
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Good thinking that Libby,lol never thought of that ... :P witnesses were,
Dan Kilgannon and Sarah Wilson
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Robert was 19 and Charlotte was 18,
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Bearing in mind Robert's middle name - I wonder if Sarah Wilson was a relative?
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I just said same to Debbie my partner, wonder if it was like a cousin, or close relative,
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I'll see what I can find.
There's no other Robert Helliwell/Halliwell/Hallewell etc, only the one I found on the 1891 and 1901 census, but if it's him I can't think why there's no father's name on cert.
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Is he the one born in Saddleworth?
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Yes
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so should i try go for Roberts birth now Libby,
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First, I'll do more searches. We don't want to be tracing the wrong family.
Are you familiar with Huddersfield? When I name areas do you know where they are?
I've found Dan Kilgannon on the census and he was living in Halifax Old Road, so no real clue there.
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I dont but my partner does, as she was born and bred there. :P
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yeah Halifax old road is Bircen cliff,
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Great Rob, it helps if you understand the geography of the place you are researching.
I too, was born there.
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Like i say Debbie does, im a smoggy from Middlesbrough lol, been to Huddersfield few times real nice place,
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So nice, neither me nor Debbie are still living there ;) ;D
Actually it isn't bad, the surrounding countryside is beautiful, particularly the Holme Valley.
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Aye, love the country side, didnt like the steep hills they built houses on though, :-X Debbies sisters all still living there,
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Charlotte's dad was dead when she got married. Here's two possible deaths.
George Henry Netherwood, age 38, Jun qrt 1895, Huddersfield, vol 9a page 260
George Netherwood, age 44, Dec qrt 1898, Huddersfield, vol 9a page 238
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how do you know which one to go :-\ for Libby
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The 1891 census has him born in 1854, but census ages are not always correct. If I can find him on an earlier census we may get an idea of his age.
The 1898 death ties in with an 1854 birth, BUT George Henry ties in with his full name, however this one was born 1857.
The short answer is there's no definite way of knowing, sorry.
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It's rather strange that I can't find births registered for the three Netherwood girls. I've looked for both Netherwood and Brady for all three - zilch.
I searched outside the Huddersfield area as well, there were no Netherwood's within the timeframe for Charlotte, Annie or Emma, there are births for those first names surname BRADY but not in Hudd's.
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looks like this is gonna be a toughy, Libby,if Robert is born in saddleworth ,do i apply at hudds for his birth, or would it be another office?
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Hi Rob,
I don't know whether Huddersfield Reg Office would have BMD's for Saddleworth as Saddleworth is now, for admin purposes, in the Metropolitan Borough of Oldham. It used to be Hudd's district, but when the boundaries were changed back in the 1970's Saddleworth, although remaining in Yorkshire was no longer controlled from Wakefield (admin capital for West Yorks). How confusing is that? In view of the confusion I'd apply centrally to the GRO for Saddleworth cert's.
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
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looks like this is gonna be a toughy, Libby
Hi Rob,
It certainly is a toughie. The Netherwoods' are doing my head in! There's no births registered that I can find for any of the three children, which is odd. I'm wondering if their parents weren't married, and therefore they were registered in their mother's name. As they were living with only their father we have to assume their mother had died, maybe around the time Emma was born. We know their father died before 1904, and probably either 1895 or 1898, if 1895 Charlotte would have been only 8 years old and too young to know her surname wasn't the same as her father's. This is the only explanation I can come up with.
I have been unable to find either Charlotte or Emma on the 1901 census. If their father had died before 1901 the children could have been in the workhouse (where sometimes inmates were enumerated by initials only). I have a possible for Annie Elizabeth lodging in either (can't remember exactly) Rastrick or Brighouse.
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Hiya Libby sorry have not been on since yesterday, reallythink Debbies family does not want to be found lol,
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Hiya Libby, ive found what i think is Robert, in 1901, was wondering if you think this is same Robert seems hes living with his aunt and uncle, hes a tobacco pipe maker here, were on Robert Marriage cert hes Sewage pipe maker think this is a coincidence, or is it same Robert?
WILSON, Henry Head Married M 51 1850 Tobacco Pipe Maker
Mirfield
Yorkshire
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WILSON, Sarah Wife Married F 42 1859
Huddersfield
Yorkshire
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HALLEWELL, Robert Nephew Single M 15 1886 Tobacco Pipe Maker
Prescott
Lancashire
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Sorry Libby just noticed, the address on Roberts marriage is same as this 1 on here, 4 water royd Dalton, he was born in Prescott, wonder if he was an orphan?
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Sorry Libby just noticed, the address on Roberts marriage is same as this 1 on here, 4 water royd Dalton, he was born in Prescott, wonder if he was an orphan?
Well done, Rob.
The 1901 census record you found must be him.
In 1881 Henry Wilson age 31, born Mirfield and a tobacco pipe maker is living in Huddersfield with wife NANCY age 23, born Hudd's, and dau Edith age 5.
In 1891 age 41 he's with wife ALICE A age 32 and children Edith 15, Lewis 11, Oliver 4.
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Hi,
Either the father or mother would be a sibling of Henry Wilson. Henry Wilson's father was Armitage Wilson born 1825 in Mirfield, Yorkshire; which fits very nice with the names Armitage Wilson Halliwell.
In my experience when you have a surname for a middle name, this is either because the child is born illegitimately and the surname of the father is given as a middle name or it is a maiden surname of either the maternal mother or paternal mother. I am guessing in this case it could be the former!
I think the mother is one of the following daughters of Armitage Wilson:
Ann Wilson born 1852 in Mirfield
Sarah Wilson born 1854 in Mirfield
There was another daughter Matilda born 1857 but she married Charles Cusworth in 1877 and still with him in the 1901 census.
Kath
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A Nancy Wilson died in 1st qrt 1891, Huddersfield, aged 33.
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We need to find Robert in 1891.
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There's a marriage Dec qrt 1883 in Dewsbury.
Sarah Ann Wilson ..............the possible grooms are Henry HALLIWELL or Robert Wilkinson
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You appear to be doing okay now, rob. I didn't realise you had access to the census returns. I'll leave you to it - as I go on holiday on Sunday. Best of luck - I hope you find Robert in 1891.
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Hi Rob
I was wondering if you have found any more information on the elusive Netherwood girls (Annie Elizabeth, Charlotte and Emma.
The reason I ask, is, I have information on this family. I can help you to sort it out, but I don't want to send information if you have already found their births etc.
Regards
Judith granddaughter of Annie Elizabeth.
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Hi Judith, no we never did get any further, I got stuck on Robert Wilson, I just know he came to live with his aunt an uncle at age 15 i think, no idea were from etc, any more information on Debbies family would be brilliant,
many thanks
Rob
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Hi Rob
My sister and myself have been tracing the family tree for over 10yrs. I will refer to the girls as the Harwwd girls for the moment. They had an older brother James William and younger sister Margaret.
Until recently we had found all the marriages for this family except Charlottes. My auntie who died a few yrs ago. said that she didn't think Charlotte had married, we couldn't find a marriage for her or a death, so stuck for Charlotte, until just before Christmas, when we downloaded James Williams service records for ww1. On the records were the names of his sisters Annie Elizabeth Firth, Charlotte Helliwell, Emma Copley and Margaret Kenny.
The next bit is where the skeletons come out of the cupboard.
Charlotte put Harwood on her marriage certificate and father George, with her middle name as Brady. We now think Charlottes father was George Harwood, but we are not sure about the other girls.
James Williams father was definatly Charles Starkey. Annie Elizabeth, Charlotte, Emma and Margaret were all registered as Starkey at Huddersfield all christened at St Patricks.
On Annies birth certificate there is no fathers name in the column for father, mothers name Bridget Starkey wife of Charles Starkey, no mothers maiden name! On Charlottes birth cert father George Starkey, whats going on? Mothers maiden name Bridget Brady. On Emmas and Margarets birth cert, no fathers name, moteher Bridget Starkey.
I'll leave you to digest this!
Judith
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Hi Rob
Just realised I have made a mistake! I put Charlotte Harwood on her marriage certificate it should say Netherwood.
Judith
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Hi Rob
Have you had any look with the information I sent you.
Judith