RootsChat.Com
General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: wyndham on Tuesday 26 May 09 21:12 BST (UK)
-
I understand that this corps was founded in 1858 and subsumed into the Army Ordnance Corps in the 1890's. I am having some difficulty in trying to find information and whether there was any book published on them. My visits to TNA have not produced any results at all. So if anyone is able to help, I would be extremely grateful.
-
Have a word with Andy or one of the lads at the museum in Deepcut...
http://www.army.mod.uk/rlc/history/349.aspx
They are all very friendly and helpful....
-
Scrimnet
Thanks for your help. I will contact the museum.
-
Have you had any success in finding more information about the Corps of Armourer-Sergeants? Like you, I haven't found much in the way of background information apart from the formation of the Corps in 1858. My GGF enlisted in the Corps in London (Westminster) in 1861 and was deployed to the West Indies and then Canada, where he was eventually discharged in 1884. I would be interested to know whether recruits would normally have been qualified in their trade (e.g., gunsmith) at the time of enlistment.
Another question relates to a written request from my GGF to his adjutant for assignment to the "Birmingham small arms Factory" [sic]. I am wondering whether there was some sort of formal arrangement between the Corps and BSA.
M. Duke
-
mduke
In brief - NO! I followed Scrimnet's advice and telephoned the RLC museum at Deepcut. Initially I spoke to a Gareth Mears who unfortunately was about to go on holiday. Since then I have tried a few times to contact him but he appears to be rather elusive.
With regard to my relation, according to his marriage certificate he was a gun maker from Birmingham. The only other details I have of him is as an Armourer-Sergeant attached to the Worcestershire Regiment in India in 1872.
Anyway, I will make further attempts to contact Mr Mears.
-
Thank-you for the update. I would be interested to hear if you do eventually learn anything from the RLC Museum. By the way, I too have ancestors who were in the gun trade in Birmingham - surname Reeves. My 3x great grandfather and three of his sons were described in the census as 'gun finishers'. One of the sons - my 2x GGF - came to Canada as a civilian armourer in the British garrison in 1844. He was eventually replaced by the GGF from the Corps of Armourers.
-
I'm afraid ALL at the Really Large Corps museum are becoming elusive, Andy included!!
-
This a minor up-date on my earlier posting. I have at last been able to contact Gareth Mears and with any luck I am hoping to hear within the next few weeks whether he can add anything to my existing meagre information on this Corps. So fingers crossed!
-
I'll stay tuned. In the meantime, I will see whether I can find anything in the research library of the Canadian War Museum.
-
This is an up-date on the situation and unfortunately a very negative one at that. I originally e-mailed Gareth Mears at the RLC Museum on 29 July last, having previously spoken to him on the phone. I heard nothing and sent a reminder e-mail on 11 September; again without any response.
In this modern day and age I would have least expected an electronic acknowledgment, but as far as I am concerned I will not bother that establishment any further.
-
I understand that this corps was founded in 1858 and subsumed into the Army Ordnance Corps in the 1890's. I am having some difficulty in trying to find information and whether there was any book published on them. My visits to TNA have not produced any results at all. So if anyone is able to help, I would be extremely grateful.
There is no book as yet on the Corps of Armourer Sergeants, but over the last two years I have been communicating with an online friend in Australia who hopes to write one. I have been helping him with research and we have already learned a lot about this small, but important corps. As a start point you should understand that they were always during their existence closely associated with the government contracted arms works, each of which became also their regimental depot and HQ. At first this was in the factory within the Tower of London, it then moved to a larger factory nearby and then again to a much larger works at Enfield (in Middlesex but later Greater London) which grew out of the increased demand from the Crimean war. Finally, later in Victoria's reign it moved to Birmingham (to Sparkbrook and another location), until the armourers lost their own corps and became a part of the Army Ordnance Corps and the tie with factories became severed. It seems that the only officer to be badged to the Corps of Armourer Sergeants was the quartermaster, and all other officers were seconded from other parts of the Army, especially the artillery, but also including infantry and cavalry officers in various senior 'staff' roles as inspectors and intermediaries between the factories and the war office. The armourers themselves were trained at the factories and certificated as 'qualified' by them too.
You can communicate with my friend at the Victorian Wars Forum where he posts as 'Peter' and I post as 'Frogsmile'.
-
I understand that this corps was founded in 1858 and subsumed into the Army Ordnance Corps in the 1890's. I am having some difficulty in trying to find information and whether there was any book published on them. My visits to TNA have not produced any results at all. So if anyone is able to help, I would be extremely grateful.
There is no book as yet on the Corps of Armourer Sergeants, but over the last two years I have been communicating with an online friend in Australia who hopes to write one. I have been helping him with research and we have already learned a lot about this small, but important corps.
As a start point you should understand that they were always during their existence closely associated with the government contracted arms works, each of which became also their regimental depot and HQ. At first this was in the factory within the Tower of London, it then moved to a larger factory nearby and then again to a much larger works at Enfield (in Middlesex at the time, later Greater London) which grew out of the increased demand from the Crimean war. Finally, later in Victoria's reign it moved to Birmingham (to Sparkbrook and another location in the city), until the armourers lost their own corps and became a part of the Army Ordnance Corps and the tie with factories became less substantial.
It seems that the only officer to be badged to the Corps of Armourer Sergeants was the quartermaster, and all other officers were seconded from other parts of the Army, especially the artillery, but also including infantry and cavalry officers in various senior 'staff' roles as inspectors and intermediaries between the factories and the war office. The armourers themselves were trained at the factories and certificated as 'qualified' by them too.
You can communicate with my friend at the Victorian Wars Forum where he posts as 'Peter' and I post as 'Frogsmile'.
I am sorry to say that we have received very little assistance from the Army museums, not least because the movement of armourers throughout the Army over hundreds of years has been a very complex one. It is really the REME who now 'own' the history of armourers and that might be why the RLC museum has shown less interest than they ought. The de facto separate function of these two corps has resulted in the armourers history in effect falling between two stools. Prior to 1858 they had no corps of their own and were directly (regimentally) employed by Commanding Officers, remaining with the same regiment (infantry or cavalry) until such time as they retired.
-
Frogsmile - Thank you very much for the update. It does add a little more information to a very unknown part of the then British Army.
Very interested to learn that there is the possibility of a book being published. I don't suppose you have any idea when this is likely to happen?
-
Frogsmile - Thank you very much for the update. It does add a little more information to a very unknown part of the then British Army.
Very interested to learn that there is the possibility of a book being published. I don't suppose you have any idea when this is likely to happen?
No I am afraid I do not know when anything will be published. It is a very, very, niche interest and Peter, like me, is an amateur historian. I have given you the details about the Victorian Wars Forum so that you can contact him there directly. He has been collecting details of as many armourers of the corps as he can find, but may be some way from publication yet. I do not pressure him about it, such matters are a very personal thing and have to be fitted in around family priorities.
-
Frogsmile - Thank you very much for the update. It does add a little more information to a very unknown part of the then British Army.
Very interested to learn that there is the possibility of a book being published. I don't suppose you have any idea when this is likely to happen?
Hello Wyndham,
I'm afraid that Peter in Australia still does not feel ready yet to publish his book, but in part that is because he wants it to be definitive and is still gathering elusive bits of information, although we've learned a great amount since your last post on this subject. Can you advise me of what remaining specific questions you have and I will let you know if we can answer them, but also what else we have learned. Unfortunately the Victorian Wars Forum has closed.
Regards,
Frogsmile
-
Good grief; how time has flown! I must admit after having no response from the people who I thought might have been able to help, I simply did not bother to pursue it any further. I just hope that the book wil be published eventually.
-
You could try contacting Peter directly, he is very helpful even if very slow with his book! If there's a PM system on this site I'll send it to you there.
P.S. I've tried but for some reason you're not able to receive PMs?
-
Thank you for your latest reply. Having thought about it I don't think I will bother Peter as it will not help in any way in his intended publication of his book.
I am surprised I can't receive pm's but it's probably down to my anti-virus.
-
I am the President of the Armourers Association and I'm holding the original General Order forming the Corps of Armourer Sergeants dated 24 June 1858. The order was signed under Her Majesty's Command by General Peel.
I have attached photographs of the original order and the Cap Badge of the Corps of Armourer Sergeants