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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Argyllshire => Topic started by: giuliana on Monday 25 May 09 14:44 BST (UK)
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Seeking information on John McNicol and Ann Leitch, who married in Glasgow in October 1854.
John was born 31 October 1834 in Glenorchy, Argyllshire. (Parents' names may be Hugh and Christina.)
Ann was born 29 September 1832 in Glenorchy, Argyllshire.
They travelled to Australia (date unknown but probably 1854-55) perhaps initially to Tasmania (the Leitch family were a pioneer family in Tasmania) but they settled in Victoria and raised their family in the Costerfield area. Both are buried in Heathcote cemetery, Victoria.
Children born to John and Ann (believed to be all born in Australia): Finley (1855), Archibald (1859), Agnes (1861 & 1863), John (1865), Donald (1868), Christina (1870), and Hugh Duncan (1872).
Details of both John and Ann's parents, siblings, occupations, addresses etc. would be greatly appreciated.
I'm very new to genealogical research but loving it so far and fully expecting to become obsessed ;D
Giuliana in Australia
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Hi Giuliana
You have quite precise birth dates for John and Ann, what's the source for these?
There is an entry in the 1851 census for a John McNicol born in 1834 in Glenorchy, Argyll. He is working as a shepherd at Coiletter Farm in Killin, Perthshire.
I wonder if this is him in with family in 1841 - they all show as born outside the county of Perthshire:
Finlay McNicol 49, agr. lab.
Anne McNicol 47
Donald McNicol 16
Christian McNicol 9
John McNicol 7
Mary McNicol 5
Address: Clifton Village, Killin
If John and Ann followed Scottish naming pattern, first born son would normally be called after his paternal grandfather. Given you have a son Finley showing as born in 1855, this family looks promising.
Monica :)
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This is Finlay and wife Ann in the 1851 census with a little bit more detail:
Finlay McNicol 59, lead miner, b. Inveraray, Argyllsh
Ann McNicol 55, b. Bonaw (?spl), Argyllsh
Dond McNicol 23, lead miner, b. Dalmally, Argyllsh
Duncan McNicol 21, shepher, b. Glenorchy, Argyllsh
Mary McNicol 14, b. Glenorchy, Argyllsh
Duncan Kennedy 4, grandson, b. Glasser, Lanark
Address: Fox Hunter St, Clifton, Killin
There are a few children showing on IGI at www.familysearch.org which may be part of this family. To Finlay McNicol and Ann McKenzie:
1. MARGARET MCNICOL Christening: 06 JUN 1824 Glenorchy And Inishail, Argyll
2. DONALD MCNICOL Birth: 04 JAN 1828 Glenorchy And Inishail, Argyll
3. DUNCAN MCNICOL Christening: 03 MAY 1828 Glenorchy And Inishail, Argyll
4. CHRIRSTIAN MCNICOL Christening: 08 JUL 1831 Glenorchy And Inishail, Argyll
Monica
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The closest I can see for Ann in the 1841 census with a slightly earlier birth year is this entry - everyone showing as born in the County:
Archibald Leitch 50, agr. lab.
Hugh Leitch 20
Mary Leitch 20
Janet Leitch 14
Ann Leitch 12
Archibald Leitch 7
Duncan Leitch 55, mariner
Allan McNicol 45, agr. lab
Address: Catush, Glenorchy Argyll
Again, in 1851, I can only see one Ann showing as born in Glenorchy, likely to be the Ann above as she shows as born c. 1829. She is working as a domestic servant away from home.
Monica
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Thanks Monica. It feels as if there's a team of elves working away while I sleep!
I had these families in my "possibles" list but you've provided additional information for me to continue my investigations. Much appreciated!
Giuliana
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Hi Giuliana
You have quite precise birth dates for John and Ann, what's the source for these? <snip> If John and Ann followed Scottish naming pattern, first born son would normally be called after his paternal grandfather. Given you have a son Finley showing as born in 1855, this family looks promising.
Monica :)
Have just heard back from the McNicol cousins in Victoria, Australia who said the birthdates and marriage details from John and Ann have come from the family Bible.
Giuliana
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Hello
I am currently compiling a history of Costerfield and have information about the McNichol family. John McNichol was a man of some standing it appears.
Regards
Anne
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Hello Anne,
That sounds very exciting! My Mum (now aged 97) grew up in Costerfield, so I'm sure she'd be very interested in your research, as I am. She might even be able to add something.
If I can remember how (as I'm new to RootsChat too), I'll send you a PM (personal message) with my email contact details. (If you don't get the PM, please let me know via this board.)
Regards,
Giuliana
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Hello
Costerfield was named after Peniston and Allan Coster and Edwin Field, three of the four initial partner's in the first mine there. However, it was hotly disputed in the district for many years that the original discoverer was John McNicol. Upper Costerfield was named Nicolton in honour of John. I have a copy of a letter that Peniston Coster wrote substantiating this fact. I also have a copy of John and Ann's marriage certificate. I am quite happy to forward these onto you if you do not have them.
How are you connected with the McNicol family?
Regards
Anne
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My Mum was a McNicol - daughter of Donald, who was a son of John and Ann.
I have very little info on this side of the family. However, I have seen the letter you refer to, and my Bendigo cousins have a copy of the marriage certificate which they transcribed for me.
I did manage to send you a PM including my email address, as that seems to be better at handling attachments.
Are you connected to the McNicol family too?
Giuliana
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Ok, sent you an email
Cheers
Anne
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I was interested to read this discussion as I have just recently discovered my father was actually a McNicol and had been adopted out at a very young age. His original Birth certificate indicates that his Grandfather was a William Donald McNicol and that his Great Grandfather was Findley Mcnicol.
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Welcome to the family!
John and Ann McNicol's son Finley (and wife Annie) had 6 children, their 4th being a son William Donald (1895-1951).
William Donald McNicol (and wife Sarah) had 8 children that I know of:
Annie Theresa (1908-1979)
Edith Jean (1911-1985)
unknown (1913-?)
Jessie Collard (1915-1976)
Finley Thomas (1917-1967)
Raymond Douglas (1919-1929)
Donald William (1921-1976)
Alexander James (1926-1984)
Where does your grandfather fit into the scheme of things?
Giuliana
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Well my fathers mother was Edith Jean McNicol (Purss) who gave him and his older half sister up for adoption soon after they were born in the early 1930's. As far as I know the rest of her family did not know that she had had two children.
The third child of William Donald and Sarah is Dulcie however I do not know her details of birth or death.
Cheers
David
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It also says on Sarah Mcnicol's (Collard) death certificate that she had 8 kids but not a raymond douglas Mcnicol, only a John Henry McNicol who came after Donald William.
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Thanks for this info. I'll have to work out how you are I are related!
I think I got the info re children's names from Vic BDM records, so usually birth records are more reliable than death records (grieving family can get things wrong and leave people out), but I'll check it out again at some stage.
Is there any info I can help you with?
Giuliana
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I have only recently got all this info from the victorian department of family services. My father passed away last year and we have always wanted to look into his history so I only applied for his adoption records in the last 3-4 months. We then got a hit with his older half sister who is now 80 years old, and who had been in contact with Jack (John Henry) McNicol and Dulcie McNicol who were the remaining members of the family still around.
She managed to get some photos and a few details of her and my fathers mother from them before they passed away. She also managed to find out about her father who had died in a car accident.
Unfortunately I have hit a dead end in finding out who my fathers dad was as there are no records on any of the birth certificates. I don't even know where she was working around the time dad would have been conceived..
I guess any information about the mcnicols ancestry would be great for curiosity sake.
Cheers,
David
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Thanks for this. I've sent you a PM (personal message) with my email address so we can communicate with more detail. G
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Hi, I am not sure how old this chat is but I stumbled onto it whilst trying to find my Grandmothers burial records.
I have the old family bible that belonged to John McNicol.
He wrote his birth at Glenorchy October 31 1834
His Wife Anne Leitch born September 29 1832 at Glenorchy.
He married Anne on 30th October 1854.
Children:
Christina - Born 22nd December 1855
Finley - Born 1 February 1857
Archibald - Born 29th May 1859
Agnes - Born 5th August 1861 / Died 2nd October 1862
Agnes - Born 28th July 1863
John - Born 25th October 1866 / Died 24th July 1889
Donald - Born 18th March 1868 (My Grandfather) / Died 18th June 1930
Christina- Born 17th April 1870
Hugh Duncan - Born 2nd May 1872
(He lived with my Grandmother, Father and Uncle Alfred on our family farm until he died on September 7th 1959).
The family of Donald and Margaret Jane (nee Newton) lived at Costerfield for a few years after Donald died. Their Children Were John, Alfred, Donald, Jesse and Maggie.
The boys cut timber (sleepers mostly) and quarried gravel for Vic Roads.
In 1946 (or thereabouts) my Father and his brother Alfred bought a dairy farm in Koyuga Victoria. My Grandmather moved with them. My Father (Donald) married my mother Joyce Govett in 1948 and I was firstborn 1949. I have a brother and a sister.
I hope this can help. I have uploaded photos of the family bible records onto the following website for your interest.
http://www.sydneynaturally.com.au/geneology.htm
Regards
Don (Donald) McNicol
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My Mum was a McNicol - daughter of Donald, who was a son of John and Ann.
I have very little info on this side of the family. However, I have seen the letter you refer to, and my Bendigo cousins have a copy of the marriage certificate which they transcribed for me.
I did manage to send you a PM including my email address, as that seems to be better at handling attachments.
Are you connected to the McNicol family too?
Giuliana
Hi, I know who this is...Give me a call cousin. I have posted photos out of the old family bible on my website at http://www.sydneynaturally.com.au/geneology.htm
I also posted here in this thread details about your mums family.
Regards
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Thanks heaps for the famiy Bible images! I've been looking for them for years!
I've responded to your PM. G
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It is more likely to be Catnish. If you look up Glenorchy on the old-maps website
http://www.old-maps.co.uk/maps.html
Catnish is surrounded by Arrivain (usually spelt Arivean) and Arichastlich and Achnafalnich. All three of these farms had McNicols as tenant farmers in them at them at one time.
My husbands family are McNicols with several generations of John McNicols all from Glenorchy. I am still trying to work out how all the McNicol families are connected.
I'll let you know if I find the connection,
Fiona McNicol
The closest I can see for Ann in the 1841 census with a slightly earlier birth year is this entry - everyone showing as born in the County:
Archibald Leitch 50, agr. lab.
Hugh Leitch 20
Mary Leitch 20
Janet Leitch 14
Ann Leitch 12
Archibald Leitch 7
Duncan Leitch 55, mariner
Allan McNicol 45, agr. lab
Address: Catush, Glenorchy Argyll
Again, in 1851, I can only see one Ann showing as born in Glenorchy, likely to be the Ann above as she shows as born c. 1829. She is working as a domestic servant away from home.
Monica
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This monumental inscription from Glenorchy Kirk, Dalmally may be of interest to you
192 (C5)
Erected by
ANN + CHRISTINE McNICOL
In Loving Memory of Their Parents
FINLAY McNICOL of Clifton
Who Died 15th March 1863 Aged 74
And ANN McNICOL His Wife
Who Died 7th December 1858 Aged 65
And of Their Family
DONALD Who Died in Glasgow 12th February 1866 Aged 38
JOHN Who Died in Australia 24th July 1891 Aged 57
DUNCAN Who Died in Dunblane 4th December 1892 Aged 64
CHRISTINA McNICOL Died 12th August 1895 Aged 64
Fiona
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Hi Fiona,
Fantastic to have you join this discussion. Thanks for the info you've provided already. I look forward to your future contributions too, as it sounds like you're much more closer to the action than we in Australia are.
When I try to bring all the bits of info together, there is some confusion, some of which is summarised here:
John and Ann's Family Bible shows John born Glenorchy, Argyllshire, as does his death record (info provided by son Finley), but his headstone (erected by widow Ann, also born Glenorchy per Family Bible) shows him as "late of Perthshire" - so I've concluded that he was born in Argyllshire but lived in Perthshire at some point prior to emigration, whether with his family or after "leaving home".
John and Ann were married in Glasgow in 1854, just a month or two before emigrating, but I can't definitely identify either of them in the 1851 census, much less the 1841 census. John's death record shows his parents' names as Hugh McNicol and Christina unknown (I can't find any census matches, presuming both parents are alive and the family is together), and later Ann's death record shows both of her parents as unknown (no help for census purposes).
The Family Bible shows John born 1834 and Ann born 1832, though the IGI Marriage Index shows the reverse: John born 1832 and Ann born 1834, but there are no obvious matching entries in the IGI Births Index.
It would be fantastic to move past this "brick wall" at my great-grandparents level! I've gone back so many more generations on other branches of my tree, but this one has me stumped. (I know, I should be grateful I'm not a Smith, right? ;) )
Looking forward to any help you can provide.
Regards,
Giuliana
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This monumental inscription from Glenorchy Kirk, Dalmally may be of interest to you
192 (C5)
Erected by
ANN + CHRISTINE McNICOL
In Loving Memory of Their Parents
FINLAY McNICOL of Clifton
Who Died 15th March 1863 Aged 74
And ANN McNICOL His Wife
Who Died 7th December 1858 Aged 65
And of Their Family
DONALD Who Died in Glasgow 12th February 1866 Aged 38
JOHN Who Died in Australia 24th July 1891 Aged 57
DUNCAN Who Died in Dunblane 4th December 1892 Aged 64
CHRISTINA McNICOL Died 12th August 1895 Aged 64
Fiona
Interesting??? That's WONDERFUL!!! It looks to me like the missing link I've been seeking re parents' names which ties in to census data etc. etc. It goes along with my guess of a father Finley (based on naming patterns) and all the names of siblings fit. This is VERY exciting! THANKYOU! (I want to rush out and book a trip to Scotland!)
G
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In the England BDMs there's a
John (oops) Finlay McNicol who died in Liverpool, Lancashire, England in Mar 1863. I wonder if that's our John (oops) Finlay ?
In 1861 there was a John McKenzie, brother-in-law, with Finlay (widowed) in Clifton. Assuming Finlay married to Ann McKenzie (rather than a sister of Finlay marrying John McKenzie), which is supported by records, it would make sense for Finlay to be with John McKenzie in Liverpool at the time of Finlay's death, and the memorial doesn't preclude this possibility.
Am I missing anything in this deduction?
G
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I have just found that there is a history of the MacNicol family in Argyll spread over 18 pages in 2 issues of the newsletter of the Glasgow and West of Scotland Family History Society, the coverage suggesting that it must be a substantial history:
MacNicol ancestry The MacNicols of Argyll - Part One by Duncan Beaton 81.13-22
MacNicol ancestry The MacNicols of Argyll - Part two by Duncan Beaton 82.17-24
Issue: 81
Year: 2008
Period: SPRING (pages 13-22)
Issue: 82
Year: 2008
Period: SUMMER (pages 17-24)
If anyone has these issues or can access them at the Society's Library (which I presume is in Glasgow), it would be fantastic if the content could be shared. If you need me to provide my email address so an attachment can be emailed to me, please send me a Personal Message.
Giuliana
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If no one comes forward with copies of these articles I will obtain copies. Just let me know.
I am in Scotland and only 2 1/2 hours from Glenorchy. Unfortunately I work full time and a lot of research places are not open at the weekends.
Fiona
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Thanks for your kind offer Fiona. I would think the newsletter articles would be of interest to lots of McNicol researchers so I'm hoping someone already has them, and can share them. If not, I would hope you would find them interesting for your own research if you were go to the trouble of acquiring them. (How far from Glasgow are you?)
The information you provided re the memorial inscription has left me with a couple of other questions. (I don't suppose you have a photo?) The fact that it shows John McNicol dying in Australia on 24 Jul 1891 rather than 24 Jul 1889 per burial records here doesn't bother me - not an uncommon mistake. But based on the names and dates listed, which pretty well matched up to the Finlay and Ann family I'd selected from the 1841 and 1851 censuses (with guidance from people on this forum) as my "best guess", I wonder:
- why Mary (b 1835 and showing in the 1841 and 1851 censuses) isn't mentioned as either having died or helping with the erection of the memorial
- who the Ann is who did join Christina to erect the memorial
- whether Ann could possibly be Mary
- whether the Christina who helped with the memorial is also the Christina listed last
Also, though not from census data, I also have a Margaret born to Finlay and Ann in 1824. So how come she doesn't rate a mention one way or the other?
Any suggestions?
I can't find IGI entries for births for many of them (just Duncan chr 3 May 1828), and too many options for marriages. I wonder whether they were non-conformists and so I shouldn't expect to find such detail in this case. Can anyone give me advice on this?
Lots of wondering! (The lot of a family history researcher!)
G
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I don't have a photo of the grave, but I am hoping to go up to Dalmally where the Glenorchy Kirk is very soon. There is the Dalmally show on the 4 September. The Church is beautiful and in a fantastic setting with the Cruachan range for a backdrop. I have taken children there for a picnic in the past.
Mistakes on grave stones are common. I have a Nicol McNicol from Arivean on the grave stone he is from Arrvean. Communication wasn't as good as it is now so a notification of death from Australia may have taken time to get here and by the time the grave stone was erected the engraver may have been given the wrong year or simply made a mistake.
I may not be able to get to Dalmally on the 4 September as we are getting 4 foster children for respite that weekend. I will try to get up sometime soon. I am only 35 miles from Glasgow so may be able to get there sooner. When I get the rare chance to go to New Register House or the Archives in Edinburgh I will look this family up.
I have been researching the McNicols on and off for 25 years (been married to a McNicol for over 26 years) and still working on it, so patience is needed :-)
There will be a connection to my McNicols too, but how ...... ?
Fiona
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You're wonderful! Thank you for all your past help and offers of future assistance. I wish I could be there to visit Dalmally with you - one day perhaps!
Thanks too for reminding me that I shouldn't berate myself for not having solved the McNicol mysteries within a year or so of starting that journey and from the other side of the world! Patience is not a strong point... Nor is accepting the fact that some brick walls will always remain.
Warm regards,
G
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Just a minor correction that may be of interest to some reading this thread:
My earlier references to Jessie Collard McNicol (1915-1976, m Gaffy), daughter of William Donald McNicol and Sarah Daisy Collard should be Tessie Collard McNicol, though it would be wise to search under both names as I've found references to both.
Happy hunting,
Giuliana
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Does anyone know these McNicols
Mary McNicol
Birth Date: 12 Aug 1777
Birthplace: STRALACHLAN,ARGYLL,SCOTLAND
Father's Name: Nicol Mcnicol
Mother's Name: Isabel Stewart
Mary Married Dugald Ferguson in Strachur in 1800
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Hello Leanne,
I'm sorry there's nothing in my tree that's going to help you. Your Mary would probably be the same generation as my Finlay (b abt 1790) or perhaps even the generation before, and I know nothing further back than Finlay.
Hopefully others will be more help than I am!
Giuliana
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Hello
I too am descended from Mary McNicol b. 1786 & Duguld Ferguson b. 1780 who married in Stralachlan 27 January 1801. I have names (tentative) for their parents but no birth dates for them yet. This is my first ever chat. I hope I'm doing it correctly. I have just been in Strachur and drove to the bottom of the peninsula so I suppose I went through Stralachlan. I did photograph the castle.
I descend through their son Nicol Ferguson b 1806 Stralachlan.
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You have done well for your first ever chat!
I hope you find this forum as beneficial as I have - some "brick walls" that I've had for years have been surmounted thanks to generous people here on RootsChat.
Perhaps you should make a separate post with your McNicol interests in the subject line to make your family names more obvious to people just browsing the forum. (Just a suggestion.)
Do you live in the UK or have you just been visiting there?
Giuliana
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Hello Carrieton
How wonderful to find a relative,im a decendent through there son Charles Stewart Ferguson,I have your Nicol and some of your family on my tree.I have been reseaching the Ferguson line for a couple of years,and can help you with the Fergusons back to the middle 1600s if you like i have most birth,death marriage records.I to am new to this site,so Im not sure how we contact each other directly.
Can anyone tell us how to please.
Leanne
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To contact each other directly (in private, or off site), click on the other person's username (top left corner of posting) and there you'll find the option to send a PM (personal message) which is still via RootsChat.
However, if you have family history to share and it's not private for some reason, it's good to keep it public for the benefit of others.
Giuliana
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I have Charles Stewart Ferguson b 1816, Strachur, son of Dugald Ferguson and Mary McNicol in my database.
It looks as as though we have 5x great grandparents in common. That's nice. I was in Strachur a couple of weeks ago. It is beautiful there.
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Finlay , who died in Liverpool aged 1 was the third son of Finlay McNicol. Other brothers were William, John Finlay Robert and James.. Robert went to Townsville in 1885, William died as a small child. John died in 1889 aged 30, having married Ann Fazackerley, leaving just my great grandfather James in Liverpool.
This Finlays's parents were John McNicol and Margaret Logan who married in Edinburgh in 1829 and are shown here in 1841 with Finlay, a brother and four sisters.
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Does anyone know the parents of the John McNicol born on Oct31st 1834 at Glenorchy . I am wondering if his father may be the sibling of my John McNicol born around 1800-1806.
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I have a John McNicol born approx 1836 in Glenorchy. The date was calculated from age on census so is approximate. McNicol is a very common name in Glenorchy I would need more details to see if he is connected (which he probably is but it is difficult to find out how). For example who did he marry and who were his children? Do you have any address (often just a farm name)?
You will have seen the previous posts between me and giuliana. She has a Finlay McNicol in her tree. There may be a connection between your Finlay and hers. The more details the better for searching.
Next week I hope to have a couple of days at New Register House in Edinburgh and will have access to birth, deaths, marriages, OPR (Old Parish Registers) and all the censuses (I have a copy of the 1881 census on CDs at home). If you have anything you would like me to look up just let me know.
Fiona
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Thanks fiona, I have been looking at a couple of trees on Genes Reunited with Finlays. Johns, etc. I will have a good look at my notes and cross reference with what I can see on Scotlands People.
One thing I would love to know is whether there are any birth records for Edinburgh not online, which I've not searched.
Finlay, Margaret, Katharine, Christina, John and Marion McNicol are six children of John McNicol and Margaret Logan. The children are shown as born in Edinburgh on the 1841 census, their parents just Scotland. We've never found their births, just John and Margarets marriage in 1829.
Sadly I fear the births may not have been registered. Would Queensferry be classed as Edinburgh? My grandparents talked about finlay being born there in 1829.
Many thanks.
Kate
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Queensferry is split into two. North Queensferry and South Queensferry. They are villages either end of the forth rail/road bridge. Before the Forth Road Bridge (1964) a ferry would run between the two. They are called Queensferry as it was Queen(Saint) Margaret of Scotland who started the ferry, she died in 1093. Queensferry on its own refers to South Queensferry and is classed as Edinburgh. It is about 10 miles north of the city centre.
I'll look as to what is in the OPRs for your family.
Fiona
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Our very extensive family here in NZ is descended from Frances Leitch who emigrated at aged 17 on the "Jane Gifford" in 1852, - 'One of Bishop Selwyn's chosen settlers'. She was baptised at St. Peters in Liverpool on 5.1.1836, her parents were Duncan & Mary Ann Leitch nee Heany, - her mother was a widow when she married Duncan on 25th September 1829 at St. Peters.
I have been unable to find their parents. Duncan was recorded as being a mariner at their marriage & a shipwright on his daughter's baptism cert..
I'm wondering if he is related to your Ann, if he had any more children, when he lived,died etc..
Perhaps he/they are on census records?
Hoping someone is able to help, please.
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Hi David (Walter12),
I am the grand-daughter of John Henry (Jack) McNicol. He is the son of William and Sarah McNicol that doesn't rate a mention here! Edith McNicol was Jack's sister, and was my Mum's aunt. I have tried to work out how to send you a PM, but can't seem to activate that function here.
The other female infant who was also adopted by Edith, as referred to in your posts, tracked down my grandfather and meet with him a number of times. She also wrote a number of lovely letters to him, which I kept after his death. I am happy to share this information with you, including anything else you would like to know about Edith. Maybe you can work out how to send me a message back though here !!
Kind regards
Kerrie McNicol
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Hi Kerrie
Welcome to Rootschat :)
New members must post 3 times to use the PM system
Just reply to this post another 2 times
ev
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See Help-Page: http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
To send a PM just click on the small green scroll to the left of the post of the person you wish to contact
Use the PM system for email addresses , other private information , or names of living or possibly living people
ev
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Thanks EV
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Sorry...one more to activate the PM system.
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Hi Folks,
Mary in Canada here! I was born in Scotland to a Glen Orchy Fletcher and a Balquhidder McGregor, lived in Tayvallich, Argyll and then immigrated in 1967. My 5x great grandparents were Angus Fletcher (abt. 1791 - 1850) and Margaret McNicol (abt. 1804 - 1840) who married in Glen Orchy in 1820. Little is known about our other McNicol connections other than that Margaret had a brother, John McNicol, born abt 1789 and died in 1860. I would love to know more! Thanks!
Mary