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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: sanmiles84 on Friday 22 May 09 09:45 BST (UK)
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Hello All,
I need some help in deciphering a will, However, when i post it on the forum to ask for help, the copyright team remove my thread because the wll is copyright to the national archives.
Would anyone be kind enough to send me a personal message to help me with deciphering the old handwriting in my will?
Regards,
Sandra
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If you post only part of the will at a time, you should get round the copyright issue, I think. Can you cut and paste the first few sentences to give people an idea of the handwriting or just paste the tricky bit if you can manage to work out most of it?
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Hi Sanmiles
I was wondering what happened to that. Thomas Mendus of St Davids, Pembrokeshire, I presume. I did manage to download all three pages before it disappeared, then thought I must have been dreaming. However, I've still got them, so I'll take another look later today.
Mike
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Here's page 1 ...
I Thomas Mendus of the village and parish of St Dayvids in the county of Pembroke (Southwales?) being of sound and disposing mind memory and understanding praised be God for the same do make ordain publish and declare this to be my last Will and Testament in manner and form following that is to say I will direct that my funeral expenses be in the first place paid and satisfied by my Executrix hereinafter named I give and devise all that my new dwelling house and garden which I now inhabit situate in (**1**) in the said village and parish of Saint Dayvids in the county of Pembroke aforesaid unto my beloved wife Mary Mendus for and during such time as she shall remain my widow and from and after her death or intermarriage I give and devise the said dwelling house and garden to my Grandson Thomas Mendus base child of my Son Thomas Mendus and to the heirs of his body lawfully to be begotten and for want of such issue I give and devise the same to my Son Thomas Mendus his heirs and assigns for ever I also give and devise all that my Messuages Dwelling Houses Lands Tenements and Hereditaments whatsoever and wheresoever situate to Evan Griffiths of (**3**) in the parish of Llangoedmore in the county of Cardigan and John Davis (just a blur here, and a marginal note to say that the original was blurred) the town of Cardigan Merchants their heirs and assigns to and for the uses interests and purposes and subject to the proviso or power hereinafter mentioned that is to say to the use interest and purpose that my said wife Mary Mendus and my said grandson Thomas Mendus may and shall during their lives and the life of the survivor of them have tenure and take thereout a clear yearly rent or annual sum of fifteen pounds
END OF PAGE 1
The bits I'm having trouble with are marked (**X**), and I'll post images of those in a while.
Mike
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OK - the difficult bits ...
Edit: Just spotted that the first word of item 2 is "Lands".
And Item 4 is "Llangoedmore".
Thanks to Graham for the rest of Item 2 - tenements and hereditaments.
Anyone fancy "tenure" for Item 5? (OK - tenure it is).
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1 first word appears to be a place name
2. Lands tenements and hereditaments (a legal term for property)
3.
2
4 Llangoodmore - not quite but a Welsh place name.
5. Inverted v indicates an omission . to arrive? not sure.
One needs the whole document to compare the handwriting of individual letters. I expect someone can do better.
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Thanks Graham - the insertion is the previous word "have". I should have deleted the mark :-[
Sanmiles tried the whole document, but it keeps being taken off for copyright reasons.
OK - let's try page 2 only and see what happens ...
Mike
Moderator comment: image removed. Please do not post complete pages of copyright documents. Thanks
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… of lawful money of Great Britain to be issuing and payable out of the same Messuages Lands Tenements and Hereditaments by two equal half-yearly payments on or at the days or times and manner hereinafter mentioned that is to say the sum of fifteen pounds unto my said wife Mary Mendus until my said grandson Thomas Mendus marries or departs from my said wife Mary Mendus to live then the sum of seven pounds and ten shillings unto my said wife Mary Mendus and the sum of seven pounds and ten shillings unto my said grandson Thomas Mendus to be paid on the twenty fifth day of March and the twenty ninth day of September in every year without any deduction or abatement out of the same or any part thereof for or by reason of any Parliamentary or other taxes rates or compositions whatsoever the first half yearly payment of the said yearly …
Enough for one day!
Mike
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OK - the difficult bits ...
Edit: Just spotted that the first word of item 2 is "Lands".
And Item 4 is "Llangoedmore".
Thanks to Graham for the rest of Item 2 - tenements and hereditaments.
Anyone fancy "tenure" for Item 5?
Yes, I agree 5 looks like "tenure" and would fit.
I had failed to notice that Llangoedmore had already been transcribed.
The shorter place name or name of the property (almost looks like paisley but could hardly be) needs checking with a Place Names of Wales if there is such a book as in the Place Names of England.
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Dear MKG and Graham,
Thank you very much for your help so far, it is greatly appreciated.
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Not a lot of time today (slight computer infection to deal with - entirely my own stupid fault), so does anyone want to carry on with this bit?
(Moderator - I'll assume that if this image stays where it is, then it would be OK to post another extract later on?).
Mike
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"hereditaments out of which the said yearly rent or annual sum of fifteen pounds to be issuing and payable as aforesaid or into or upon any part or parts thereof to enter and distrain for the said yearly rent or annual sum of fifteen pounds or so much thereof as shall be then so in arrear or unpaid as aforesaid and the distress and distresses then and there found and taken to load drive carry away and impound and in ...to detain and keep until the said yearly rent or annual sum of fifteen pounds and all arrears thereof and all costs charges and expenses relating to or attending the said distress or distresses shall be fully satisfied and paid and in default thereof in due time after such distress or distressess shall be so taken to appraise sell and dispose of the same distress and or distresses or otherwise to ...(remain?) therein according to Law in like manner as in [such] distresses taken for rent reserved by Lease or common service to the end and intent that thereby she my said wife Mary Mendus and my said Grandson Thomas Mendus may be fully satisfied and paid thus and her share of these...
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I think the first query is "pound", in the sense of an area reserved for keeping impounded animals.
The second one might be "demean". I have an 1896 dictionary which gives an alternative meaning of this word, marked as obsolete even then, as "To treat; to conduct; to manage" , which would make sense in this context.
Hope that helps
Roger
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Yes I did think it could be 'pound' but in fact another theory is that with the document being so repetative the 'im'and 'pound' which follows impound might be a mistake and the sentence could make sense without it.
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Referring to Post #5, I think the answer to 3. is Penyrallt,which is a fairly common Welsh name, often used for farms, and meaning something like "Top of the hill".
Greensleeves
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Still battling the little vermin ....
Final part of page 2
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Since a will by definition is a document in the public domain, how can it be copywrited to the National Archives, or for that matter anyone?
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Perhaps it is the image which has the copyright, rather than the document. If this is the case, it would mean that anyone - in theory - could make a copy and share it. But presumably there are rules against That Sort of Behaviour because, as we know, profit is what this is all about. It is rather a shame that quasi-government agencies have discovered how to cash in on various interests by using copyright law, particularly as most of them are covered by Crown copyright which attracts rather unpleasant penalties for those who infringe the regulations. Hence the reason why the Mods react so quickly to any likelihood of infringement, because it is they who would ultimately face prosecution, not us.
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Something else to deal with come the revolution! We all know where the profit motive has got us. As the Romans said "Tolle divitem!"
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said annual cost or yearly Sum of fifteen pounds and all arrears thereof and all costs, charges and expenses relating to or attending t[he] recovery or obtaining payment of the same. And as to for and concerning all the last mentioned Messuages Lands Tenements and Hereditaments subject to and charged and chargeable with the said yearly rent or annual sum of fifteen pounds and the power or recovery hereuntofore mentioned for recovery or obtaining payment thereof I give and devise the same to the use of my said son Thomas Mendus and my two daughters Charlotte Davies the wife of David Davies Diana Jones the wife of Edward Jones for and during the term of their natural lives and the life of the survivor of them and from and after their several deceases and the decease of the survivor of them I give and devise the same to the heirs and assigns of my said son Thomas Mendus [to me it looks like Mondus always]
for ever Subject to all my just debts to be immediately paid out of the produce of the said last mentioned promises by my said Son Thomas and my said daughters Charlotte and Diana in exoneration of my personal Estate. I give and bequeath unto my said son Thomas Mendus and my three daughters Charlotte Davies Diana Jones and Mary Nicholas the wife of Thomas Nicholas the sum of Four hundred pounds and upwards...to use by Mortgage on the Wesleyan Chapel in St Mary's acre in the City of London share and share alike And I give and bequeath all my household furniture unto my said wife Mary Mendus and my said grandson Thomas Mandus share and share alike And I so nominate constitute and appoint my said wife Mary sole EXECUTRIX and residuary...
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Brilliant Graham, I can do them sometimes, but need a hard copy.
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And finally ...
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Thank you so much for all your help, it really is greatly appreciated and I dont know what I would have done without you all.
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Legatee of this my said will hereby revoking all former will or wills by me at any time or times hereuntofore made and declaring this to be my last will and testament In witness whereof I the said Thomas Mendus to this my last will and Testament have thereunto set my hand and seal this twentyseventh day of April in the year of our Lord One thousand eight hundered and twenty six ______Thomas Mendus [ ]_____ Signed sealed published and declared by the said Thomas Mendus as and for his last will and Testament in the presence of us who in his presence who in his presence and in the presence of each other at his request have subscribed our names as witnesses thereto/___/ Evan Davies of Cardigan Atty /_____/Thos. Charles of Cardigan Atty [Attourney] Dvd Harries Writer to Mr Davies.
PROVED at London the Said 1832 before the Judge by the oath of Mary Mendus widow the reliict the sole Executrix to whom Admon [Administration] was granted having been first sworn by Commons duly to administer
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Brilliant! Well done, Graham and everyone else. At the very least, I've learned an awful lot about what's allowable and what's not - thanks for the pointers, Moderator.
All you have to do now, Sanmiles, is cut and paste everything together.
Mike
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A very strange script for the early 19th century! Those I've dealt with have appeared modern, just a few obscure or archaic words to deal with! With the older wills I use a standard form for the probate grant, there are minor variations, but the gist is always the same, and it saves transcription time.
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WOW! Thank you all so much...
I just have one last question... Where it says that the will was "Proved" does that mean that they had passed and the will was used/viewed on that date? Or does "Proved" mean that it was approved?
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The will was Proved in London. What it means is that probate was granted and the contents of the will then became effective. If the person had not made a will there would still be Letters of Administration which has the same effect, allowing the legal executors to discharge the legal procedures.
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Earlier letters of administration can be even more interesting, particularly when they include an inventory of the deceased person's goods and chattels.
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I have just been alerted to this thread. A transcript of Thomas Mendus (II) will has been available for some time for the several of us who are descended from him: Thos Mendus - daughter Charlotte m. David Davies - son Joseph m Jane Davies and then assorted children born in Newport Mon. His other daughter, Diane, married a notable Wesleyan minister (Edward Jones 3rd) who died in 1855 in Llanidloes.
We have pieced together quite a lot about Thomas Mendus II.
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Hi Pedologist,
Thank you for you post to our thread. Do you have any further information that you can share with me or any photos / documents? I too am a decendent of Thomas Mendus :)
I would love to hear back from you...
Sandra
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Sandra,
Why not contact me off list at
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