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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => West Lothian (Linlithgowshire) => Topic started by: mcvicars on Thursday 21 May 09 07:30 BST (UK)
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I am visiting Scotland next month, tracing my family tree. My grandmother, Annie Marshall was born 1906 in Broxburn; (sisters Isabella and Tilda, plus a stepbrother and sister from her mother's first marraige) Her birth record on Scotlands People lists her parents as Daniel and Mary Marshall married 23 Nov 1901. However, the marriage records only reveal a marriage of Daniel and Mary (Dickson (widowed), nee Mcvicars) Marshall on 9 Nov 1900. Depending on which record is correct, that seems to influence being able to trace back further as birth records for Daniel Marshall do not match the names of his parents listed on the marriage of 1900 making me wonder how to get the correct tree-line?
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hi
welcome to rootschat :)
without knowing all the details one suggestion i could make is to try and find
them on the 1901 census
if you are sure about the step children from the first marriage then their
mother will be married on the 1901 census if the marriage was 9th nov 1900
or not married if it was 23 nov 1901
does annie marshall's birth cert. give a maiden name for mother mary ?
if you can give us the names of the step children then i'm sure someone will
find them on the 1901 census
ev
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Thankyou ev, that was a good idea, solved part of puzzle but not the whole. On the census it lists Daniel as born in Ireland so that explains why I couldn't track his birth record on the Scotland site.
Via an aunt and the 1901 census, I confirmed the stepchildren were Elzie, Henry and Richard Dickson(or Dixon); I then managed to find marriage record for Mary Mcvicars to Richard Dickson in 1891. On this record Mary's parents are listed as Henry and Margaret McVicar (McVicker).
On Annie Marshall's birth certificate, it list her mother's name as previously Dickson, and McVicar - which matches with above, and has her parents marriage as 28 Nov 1901. I cannot locate any 1901 marriage although as stated i can find a 9 Nov 1900 marriage of Daniel to Mary Dickson (widowed) on which it states Mary's parents as Richard McVicar and Mary McVicar.
Its frustrating as both marriage certificates seem to be the same Mary ( ie the Dickson - McVicar match) but each list different parental names?? Any further tips greatly appreciated. I also hope to be able to locate Mary Marshall's burial place when I am over there, I heard she was not in Broxburn but had been in an aged home when she died in nearby place?
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seems like you have the right people
a richard dickson died 1898 uphall west lothian age 26(born 1872)
i believe uphall is the district for broxburn
were richard dickson's parents richard dickson and margaret jones ?
richard/henry/mary/margaret - possible mix up :-\
where and when was mary mcvicars born ?
were her parents deceased upon marriage to richard dickson ?
did her mother have a maiden name ?
ev
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Hi Mcvicars and Ev :)
From what you have all found, Mary's 1901 census entry also shows her as being born in Ireland. In 1901 she shows as born in 1869. There is this possible birth entry for her on IGI at www.familysearch.org with the names showing on her marriage cert to Richard Dickson:
MARY MC VICKER Birth on 15 OCT 1868, Antrim, Ireland
Parents:HENRY MC VICKER and MARGARET DAVIS
Another entry for perhaps a sibling, ELIZABETH MCVICKER on 19 NOV 1866 0160, Castlequarter, Antrim - mother Margaret in this case showing as Dawson.
I was going to suggest checking her death cert to see what it said regarding her parents' names however her death seems to show under Marshall/Dickson (not Mcvicars) so not sure if this will help much on verifying her parents' names. Her death was in 1952, aged 83 (b. 1869).
Monica
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Thankyou so much Monica and ev, what a wealth of information you both are! Monica, as you have noted Marys death in 1952, is there information on her grave site? Was it in the West Lothian area, I would love to visit it when Im over there next month.
I think all evidence points to Henry and Margaret as her parents, but any clues as to why I can find her first marriage records to Richard but can't find her 2nd marriage record to Daniel Marshall?
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If I may bother you with another question, why can I find Mary McVickers birth record but not Daniel Marshalls? His 1901 census record also stated he was Irish.
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Hi McVicars
The death entry for a Mary Marshall/Dickson shows in Linlithgow, West Lothian 1952. I haven't viewed the original image just used the search options on Scotlands People. Not sure if the certificate will show where she was buried, you may have to make other inquiries to establish which cemetery.
I found Mary's birth details on IGI. I am not sure how complete Irish records are for Ireland. Certainly official registration began there from 1864. You might want to have a look at this new site from family search: http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch which has recently been launched and covers BMDs for Ireland.
You might want to post on the General Ireland board here on RC for some help in locating Daniel's birth.
Monica
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Hi, All - I'm hoping I can offer some information which might help clear up various questions and point to sources for further research in Ireland. I'm taking an interest for two reasons - first, I live in West Lothian and am always happy to assist, when I can, those doing West Lothian research, and, second, I have an oblique interest in the Annie Morrow, nee Marshall, who was a witness at Richard Dickson and Mary McVicar's marriage. Here's what I have - hope it doesn't get too long.
Tried to send but "message too long exceeds 5000 characters". So this is page 1 ...
Birth of Mary McVICKER
15Oct1868, Antrim
Henry McVICKER=Margaret DAVIS
This has a batch no. C011867 which I haven't been able to identify and the mother's name is incorrect according to Mary's two marriage certs. and death cert. which clearly state DAVIDSON. However, if the IGI entry comes from the published BMD indexes which were filmed by the LDS then I can understand why the name could be wrong because many of the indexes are very difficult to read and many are unreadable.
1st Marriage of Mary McVICAR - 'X' her mark (Uphall 1891 Dist. no. 672 entry no. 3)
Date: 31Dec1890 at 83 Haligate
Form: Church of Scotland
Age & status: 21yrs. - spinster of Broxburn
Occup: domestic servant
Father: Henry McVICAR, labourer, deceased
Mother: Margaret McVICAR, m.s. DAVIDSON, still alive
Spouse: Richard DICKSON - 'X' his mark
Age & Status: 20 yrs. - bachelor of Broxburn
Occup: miner
Father: Thomas DICKSON, labourer, still alive
Mother: Margaret DICKSON, m.s. McVICAR, still alive
Minister: Wm. Johnston, Uphall Parish
Witnesses: Samuel CHAMBERS; Annie MORROW
1891 census
Uphall Dist. no. 672 book 4 page 10
62 Haligate
Rich. DICKSON, head, mar, 20, shale miner, b. Ireland
Mary DICKSON, wife, mar, 21, b. Ireland
Children
Thomas, b. 8Dec1891 at 62 Haligate (Uphall 672 - 384); d. 7Apr1897 at 4 Haligate (Uphall 672 - 51)
Elizabeth, b. 25Apr1894 at 83 Haligate (Uphall 672 - 127)
Henry, b. 28Jul1896 at 3 Haligate (Uphall 672 - 272)
Richard, b. 27feb1899 at 49 Haligate (Uphall 672 - 87)
Death of Richard DICKSON (Uphall 1891 Dist. no. 672 entry no. 77)
Date & Place: 26Jun1898 - 49 Haligate
Age: 26yrs
Occup: miner
Status: married
Spouse: Mary McVICAR
Father: Thomas DICKSON, labourer, still alive
Mother: Margaret DICKSON, m.s. McVICAR, still alive
Informant: Robert McNEILL, brother-in-law, Roman Camps
I suspect Mary and Richard were cousins. Why? Here's a family in the townland of Moneyduff, Dunaghy, Ballymoney Parish Antrim, in the 1851 census:
Z14 MONEYDUFF TOWNLAND
WILLIAM MCVICARS /HEAD/M/40//LABOURER/ANT/
MARY MCVICARS /WIFE/M//38/NONE/ANT/
JAMES MCVICARS /SON/U/18//LINEN WEAVER/ANT/
ROBERT MCVICARS /SON/U/15//LINEN WEAVER/ANT/
HENRY MCVICARS /SON/U/12//LINEN WEAVER/ANT/
ADAM MCVICARS /SON/U/9//WINDING SPOOLS/ANT/
MARGARET MCVICARS /DAUGHTER/U//5/NONE/ANT/
MARY MCVICARS /DAUGHTER/U//2/NONE/ANT/
MARGARET HENRY /SERVANT/U//11/WINDING SPOOLS/ANT/
The importance of Dunaghy I'll come back to.
2nd Marriage of Mary McVICAR - 'X' her mark (Uphall 1900 Dist. no. 672 entry no. 50
Date: 9Nov1900 at Broxburn
Form: Free Church of Scotland
Age & status: 32yrs. - widowed of Broxburn
Occup: n/r
Father: Richard McVICAR, farm servant, deceased
Mother: Mary McVICAR, m.s. DAVIDSON, still alive
Spouse: Daniel MARSHALL
Age & Status: 32yrs. - bachelor of Broxburn
Occup: boiler fireman
Father: George MARSHALL, miner, deceased
Mother: Isabella MARSHALL, m.s. McKILLOP, deceased
Minister: Robert Erskine, Broxburn U.F. (First) Church
Witnesses: John MURDOCH; Maria McKELVIE
(The forenames for Mary's parents are obviously incorrect.)
1901 census
Uphall Dist. no. 672 book 4 page 6
49 Haligate
Daniel MARSHALL, head, mar, 33, steam boiler (fireman), b. Ireland
Mary MARSHALL, wife - twice marr, twice mar, 32, b. Ireland
Eliza DIXON, daur, 7, scholar?, b. Uphall WLN
Henry DIXON, son, 5, scholar?, b. Uphall WLN
Richard DIXON, son, 2, b. Uphall WLN
(These 3 are bracketed together with the not "by 1st husband")
Patrick NEIL, lodger deleted and "boarder" substituted, single, 19, shale miner, b. Ireland
(Remember Patrick NEIL for later)
(It was a requirement of the 1901 census that a place of birth furth of Scotland should include both the county and country of birth. This enumerator was rather lax - more's the pity. But there's more than one way to skin a cat ;-)
Children
Maggie, b. 8Jul1901 at 49 Haligate (uphall 672 - 274); d. 24Jul1901 at 49 Haligate (Uphall 672 - 118)
Isabella, b. 4May1903 at 49 Haligate (Uphall 672 - 143)
Annie, b. 26Apr1906 at 49 Haligate (Uphall 672 - 182)
Margaret Jane, b. 1Jan1909 at 49 Haligate (Uphall 672 - 22); d. 1Feb1909 at 49 Haligate (Uphall 672 - 16)
Matilda, b. 10Jul1911 at 49 Haligate (Uphall 672 - 222)
There don't appear to be marriages or deaths for the 3 girls who survived.
In all cases the mother is named as Mary MARSHALL, previously DICKSON, m.s. McVICAR
... continued on page 2
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... page 2
Death of Daniel MARSHALL (Uphall 1891 Dist. no. 672 entry no. 48)
Date & Place: 21Apr1940 - 43 Cardross Road, Broxburn
Age: 77yrs
Occup: boiler fireman
Status: married
Spouse: Mary McVICKAR (sic)
Father: George MARSHALL, coal miner, deceased
Mother: Isabella MARSHALL, m.s. McKILLOP, deceased
Informant: Mary MARSHALL. 'X' her mark, widow, present
Death of Mary McVICKERS (sic) (Linlithgow Dist. no. 668 entry no. 75)
Date & Place: 8Dec1952 - St. Michael's Hospital, Linlithgow
Age: 83yrs
Usual address: 41 Cardross Road, Broxburn
Status: widowed
Spouse #1: Richard DICKSON, shale miner
Spouse #2: Daniel MARSHALL, oilworks labourer
Father: Henry McVICKERS, farm labourer, deceased
Mother: Margaret McVICKERS, afterwards NEILL, m.s. DAVIDSON, deceased
Informant: Sarah WATSON, step-sister, 67 East Main Street, Uphall
So, after Henry died Margaret re-married a man called NEILL.
Remember Patrick NEIL in the 1901 census?
Death of Sarah NEILL (Uphall Dist. no. 672 entry no. 24)
Date & Place: 14Jan1955 - 67 cardross Road, Uphall
Age: 77yrs
Status: married
Spouse: John WATSON, shale miner retired
Father: James NEILL, general labourer, deceased
Mother: Margaret NEILL, previously McVICKERS, m.s. DAVIDSON
Informant: John WATSON, widower, present
I'll leave you to think about that.
Next port of call was the Cemetery records. (Broxburn does not have a cemetery; there are two in Uphall - Uphall Cemetery and Loaninghill Cemetery which is the modern one.) I went looking for interments for Richard, Daniel and Mary:
(interment dates)
Uphall Cemetery Lair A25 - lair owner Richard DICKSON
8Apr1897 - Thomas DICKSON, aged 5yrs
18Apr1897 - Robert DAVIDSON, aged 21yrs
20Jun1898 - Richard DICKSON, aged 26yrs
19Jan1905 - Richard DICKSON, stepson of Daniel MARSHALL, aged 5yrs
3Jul1917 - still born child of Elizabeth DICKSON
Uphall Cemetery Lair A39 - lair owner Daniel MARSHALL (early dates recorded relationship to lair owner)
22Feb1900 - Isabella MARSHALL, mother, aged 72yrs
25Jan1902 - Maggie MARSHALL, daughter, aged 1yr
2Feb1909 - Margaret Jane MARSHALL, daughter, aged 1 month
24Sep1929 - Henry DICKSON, n/r, aged 33yrs
23Apr1940 - Daneil MARSHALL, no age recorded
11Dec1952 - Mary McVICKERS or DICKSON or MARSHALL, aged 83yrs
So Mary McVICAR is buried in lair A39 in Uphall Cemetery. See Uphall Cemetery? Visit
http://maps.live.com/
Check top-left that you're in the UK page, if not click on the page you're on and select UK. Enter EH52 6DH in the location box and hit the search button. use your scroll wheel to zoom in on the marker until you can see the Wyndford Avenue/Freeland Terrace junction. Close the side navigation panel and change to the Aerial view - Uphall Cemetery.
I'd better explain my reference to Annie MORROW. I did some research for a friend on MORROW and found the marriage of Alexander MORROW to Annie MARSHALL in 1888 at Haligate. Annie was thedaughter of - you've guessed - George MARSHALL and Isabella McKILLOP, born abt 1866 in Ireland. My research established that the Morrows and Marshalls came from an area north of Ballymena. If you draw a triangle from Cushendall (on the Antrim coast) east to Ballymoney and south to Ballymena that's the area I'm talking about.
... seems it's going to be 3 pages
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... page 3
Back to what we know.
Monica offered the IGI entry for the birth of Elizabeth McVICKER in 1866 albeit with mother's name DAWSON rather than the expected DAVIDSON. That has a batch number of C701297 which is definitely an extraction from the BMD Indexes for 1866 and, as I said, many of these are badly stained - probably from water damage - and very difficult to read. I can readily see DAWSON being mistaken for DAVIDSON.
I can see an IGI entry for the birth of Richard DICKSON - 7Aug1871 in Antrim. Parents - Thomas DICKSON and Margaret McVICKAR. Again this has a batch number I can't identify.
In the LDS civil registration indexes which Monica mentioned there is a marriage for George MARSHALL and Isabella McKILLOP - 1847 Ballymena volume 2 page 111. That implies a Protestant marriage because RC marriages weren't registered until 1864 and that fits with what we know.
The LDS extraction C701267 records a birth for Margaret MARSHALL 20Oct1865 in Clogh, (Dunaghy, Ballymoney Parish) to George and Isabella. We're back to my "Bermuda" triangle.
How about this one? Again from the BMD indexes:
District of Ballymena: death in 1869 of Henry McVICKAR aged 29yrs (volume 1 page 106) - see 1851 Antrim census
Griffith's Valuation (1853-1865) has interesting entries:
George MARSHALL, tenant in Culnafey, Ballyscullion Grange
Thomas DICKSON, tenant in Drumanduff, Ballinderry
Archy McKILLOP, tenant in Dunaghy, Ballymoney
Daniel McKILLOP, tenant in Ballymoney, Ballymoney
and a number of McKILLOPs in Loughguile, Loughguile - John, Alexander, Patrick, Eneas, Denis, John, Hugh and Daniel
All of these are, of course, in my triangle.
Nearly forgot - clue from the Cemetery records:
Death of Isabella McKILLOP (Uphall Dist. no. 672 entry no. 38)
Date & Place: 20Feb1900 -30 Haligate
Age: 52yrs (sic - but see cemetery record)
Status: widow
Spouse: George MARSHALL, miner
Father: John McKILLOP, labourer, deceased
Mother: Sarah McKILLOP, m.s GLASGOW, deceased
Informant: D. MARSHALL, son, present
A search to check if they were in Scotland earlier produced nothing in 1891 but this in 1881:
1881 census
Bothwell Dist. no. 625/1 book 7 page 16
4 Chapel Sq.
Isabella MARSHALL, head, wid, 57, b. Ireland
George MARSHALL, son, unm, 20, fireman, b. Holytown LKS
John MARSHALL, son, unm, 18, labourer, b. Holytown LKS
Daniel MARSHALL, son, unm, 16, b. Holytown LKS
Ann MARSHALL, daur, unm, 13, servant, b. Holytown LKS
John KNOULES, boarder, unm, 19, boilerman, b. Ireland
Intriguing! Looks like our family but the birthplaces for the children are wrong! However, the John MARSHALL turns up in Uphall, having been born in Ireland, in 1891 living with a MARKS family and then in 1901 he's living in Bathgate with a McKILLOP (born in Ireland) family!
Enough from me! I'm told that my biggest failing is I'm intoxicated with the exuberance of my own verbosity!
mcvicars, you should have a look at the website of West Lothian Family History Society where they offer to assist, where they can, anyone visiting West Lothian for Homecoming 2009
www.wlfhs.org.uk
Hope all this helps.
mr-aitch
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HOPE THIS HELPS>>>WOW and some ;D
That's impressive mr-aitch ;)
Monica
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Thanks for the kind words, Monica - glad to be able to help.
mr-aitch
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My goodness mr-aitch, that goes way beyond helpful - that is brilliant!!! Sure beats my searching - hands down. I'm new to this, but have become totally hooked! My mother died last year and I came to the realisation that unless I captured some of the family stories from her elderly sister, then it would be hard to trace back; so that's where I started so that i knew I had the right places & people to begin.
You certainly weren't too verbose, I am just humbled by the generosity of your time! I have already been on the West Lothian site but only today my son has confirmed the dates we will be staying in Edinburgh: Sun12- Wed 15th; so i shall certainly set up a visit and would love to hear what options there might be. Indeed it is the key purpose of my visit to the area. I think at the very least i owe mr-aitch a drink!!
many many thanks,
mcvicars
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Hi, hope you do not mind me jumping in here I also have a interest in the Marshall and Morrow Family. I have been Researching the Morrow family and Alexander Morrow Who Married Your Annie Marshall was the Brother of My Great Grandfather Robert Morrow. Alexander Morrow and Annie Marshall married on the 13 Jan 1888 in Broxburn.Alexander died on the 13 Sept 1918 at 116 Holigate,Broxburn and Annie died on the 4 May 1928 at 114 Holigate,Broxburn,they are buried in the Uphall Cemetery Section C Lair 322. The witnesses on there marriage were Daniel Marshall and Robert Borrowman.
There Children were
Isabella b 21 0ct 1888 Broxburn
Matthew b 11 june 1890 Broxburn
Alexander b 22 Sept 1898 Broxburn
Agnes b 24 March 1892 Broxburn
Annie b 26 nov 1893 Broxburn
George b 15 oct 1895 Broxburn d31 March 1897
Sarah b 13 may 1897 Broxburn d 20 Aug 20 Aug 1897
George b 13 Jan 1900 Broxburn d 24 Jan 1900
Margaret b 25 MAy 1901 Broxburn d 1 Oct 1901.
Hope this helps.
Sicknote
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Thankyou, Annie Morrow (nee Marshall) would thus be my great aunt, ie my great grandfather, Daniel Marshall's sister. Filling in some gaps on the cemetery records where mr-aitch says there are no records of marriages/deaths for the 3 Marshall daughters of Daniel and Mary - Annie (my grandmother, b 1906) and her sister Isabella came out via ship to Australia in their late teens, approx 1923-25; Matilda, their younger sister, followed them a few years later. All married and died in Australia. I have yet to track down the exact ship they came out on, would their be passenger departure records over there?
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I don't have a subscription to this site, but it has migration shipping manifests www.findmypast.com/passengerListPersonSearchStart.action?redef=0
Monica
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Reply - thanks for the tip Monica, as ever, such a helpful bunch!!
I now have both Annie and Isabella's ship records from the "Otranto" 1927. It shows that there were 2 males travelling with them in their party: Mr D. Marshall, 34yrs from Manchester and more curiously a Mr R.C.G. Marshall, 56 yrs from Hampstead who was listed to debark at Colombo and had as his intended future permanent residence India. There was a woman called Mrs E.G. Hughes 50yrs, a clerk, also listed as living at his same address and also intending to reside in India...I wonder who they were...noone in the family has ever heard of other people in their party....
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Trying to trace the birth record and family history of my great grandfather, Daniel Marshall, born in Ireland approx 1868. He migrated to Scotland as he was married there in 1900. His marriage certificate (1900) lists his parents as George MARSHALL, miner, deceased and Isabella MARSHALL, m.s. McKILLOP, deceased. His mother, Isabella is buried at Uphall cemetry, Scotland (died in 1900 aged 72 so born approx 1828). So far I have discovered that he had a sister, Annie born to George MARSHALL and Isabella McKILLOP, born abt 1866 in Ireland and that the Marshalls came from an area north of Ballymena.
A helpful researcher on the Scotland site found a marriage for George MARSHALL and Isabella McKILLOP - 1847 Ballymena.
Any information on Daniel and his parents George and Isabella would be greatly appreciated. Irish records are harder to search than Scotland's, I understand because many of them were destroyed.
Report to moderator 139.86.3.249
kingskerswell
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
I posted a request on the Ireland site and was told that civil registration of births in Ireland started in 1864 so before that date there will be no birth certificates. Confirmed George Marshall married Isabella McKillop on 3 Apr 1847 in Ballymena Registrars Office and that a Margaret Marshall was born to George Marshall and Isabella McKillop on 28 Oct 1865 in Clogh Antrim.
Cannot find a Daniel born to this couple but if the birth was before 1865 it will not have been registered. But that there are several children of George Marshall and Isabella McKillop listed in IGI (www.familysearch.org):
1. James Marchall born 3 Feb.1860 Bothwell, Lanark, Scotland
2. John Marshall born 3 Feb.1860 Bothwell, Lanark, Scotland
3. Margaret [Marshal] born 28 Oct.1865 Clogh district, Antrim, Ireland
As I still can't confirm Daniel Marshall's birth record could it be that the Marshall family were in Scotland at the time of the 1861 census? Where else could hsi record be?
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Hi McVicars
I cannot see any trace of the family in Scotland for the 1861 Census, likely they may have gone back to Ireland following the birth of the twins given they are the only two children showing at present as born in Scotland.
The earliest sign of them on the censuses in Scotland that I can see is in 1891:
Isa Marshall 61, b. Ireland
Dan Marshall 23, Retortman, b. Ireland
John Marshall 26, Shale Miner, b. Ireland
Isa Gallaway 11, granddaughter, b. Uphall, Linlithgows
Address: 30 Holygate, Broxburn
Regarding Daniel's birth, have you tried looking through http://pilot.familysearch.org These new databases from LDS include Irish BMDs (very much like the English indexes) that give you the references to then be able to order a certificate direct from the Irish Register Office. I have little experience of searching on this database, but there have been a number of posts on this on the Irish General board since this database was launched.
Monica
Added: Given the age of son John above, possibility that first John may have died? Second John born c. 1864 back in Ireland?
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Mr-aitch, I think the family you found in 1881 (reply #10)is not the right one. Looking at IGI for children's births, Isabella is a McAlpine. Likely family came over after this census with daughter Ann's marriage in 1888 in Broxburn perhaps.
Monica :)