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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: ec on Sunday 17 May 09 17:40 BST (UK)
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Hi
I have posted a bit about this lot many moons ago, but this week I received a birth cert that I thought would help move things on but I'm even more lost than ever.
Birth cert is Jane Elizabeth Bryant b. 1875 Pancras. Father Henry Bryant, Timber Porter and mother Sarah Bryant formerly Ayres (thats what it looks like).
I have never been able to find Jane Elizabeth on any census in the past, but I didn;t know her mothers name, just her fathers. the fathers name and occupation matches the marriage I have for her in 1895. She married George Frederick Verrier. (although I have recently spotted her on the 1911).
I cant find a marriage for Henry Bryant and Sarah Ayres and I cant find a definite trace of any of them any census - as for the daughter, Jane Elizabeth -she seems to disappear until she marries.
I wonder if anyone else would be willing to take a look.
This is my previous posting for information, just so there is no duplication of effort
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,35854.0.html
ec
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What is the exact address on her birth cert?
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Hi Lizdb
Its 23 Brighton Street, Pancras - place of birth and also address of informant, her mother
ec
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Could mums surname be Naish?
MArriage
Oc/Nov/dec 1869
Pancras
Henry Bryant - one of brides Sarah Naish
bit of a clutching at straws, i know
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I went back to the 1871
Henry Bryant 55 shoemaker, bristol
Sarah Bryant 44 bristol
Henry Bryant 18 van guard, bristol
Lucy Bryant 12 all st pancras
Annie Bryant 10
William Bryant 8
Frederick Bryant 6
Emily Bryant 3
RG10; Piece: 204; Folio: 110; Page: 46;
durr-no good-Jane isn't with them in 1881
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Thanks for looking mc8 - its all a bit of a mystery!!
Lizdb - I did see that - the mother surname on the cert definitely doesn't look like Naish, but it did make me wonder if maybe she'd been married before etc. Did try and find an Ayres/Naish marriage to be followed by the Naish/Bryant one, but I didn't get anywhere with that either!!
ec
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This might be a sighting of her in 1891 RG12 piece 20 folio 66 page 4
Jane E Bryan servant Single 19 born St Pancras housemaid at 49 Bedford `Gardens Kensington Home of John Abraham born Jamaica tea Merchant
A little old but the rest fits. I can't check this as Findmypast won't let me see the image at the moment.
Barbara
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sorry I meant BRANT
Barbara
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I'm having a go at attaching a scan of the mothers maiden name - not done this before so I'm not sure how it works!!
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Thats interesting arabrab - of course, just my luck, not with family!!
ec
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Hi ec
Is the maiden name Ayres???
Oh yes, have just read back.... doh!
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Hi
I just stumbled across Brighton Street in 1881. No. 23 is occupied by two families, that of George Taylor and that of William H Stephenson. No sign of little Jane Bryant. (RG11/192 7 p7 & 8 ).
All the best
Gobbo
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ayres is a travellers name
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Hi ec
Have you considered the possibility that Henry BRYANT could have died and mother Sarah remarried prior to 1881? Jane may have been recorded with stepfather's surname?
FreeBMD has the death of a Henry BRYANT age 31 Mar Q 1877 Pancras vol 1b/pge 39.
Heather
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Hi ec
Folllowing a serious senior moment I misread Henry as William and searched for Jane, born in Pancras, daughter of William and Sarah. Hiraeth's discovery may mean that this was an incredibly lucky error. The 1881 census has the following family living at 6 Coopers Buildings, St Pancras (RG11/192 19 p32-33 )
William Boon, Head, marr, 44, Jobbing Labourer, b. Middlesex, Pancras
Sarah Boon, Wife, marr, 36, b. do do
Edward Boon, son, unm, 14, b. Middlesex, Pancras
Frederick do, son, 10, scholar, b. Middlesex, do
Elizabeth do, daur, 9, do, b. do do
Charles do, son, 8, do, b. do do
Jane do, daur, 5, do, b. do do
Alexander do, son, 2, b. do do
James do, Brother, 26, Auctioneers Porter, b. do do
I think that this lot are worth a closer look given that your other thread mentions Frederick Boon as a witness at Jane Bryant's wedding.
All the best
Gobbo
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Hi ec
A bit more about the Boons: in 1871 the family was at 16 Brunswick Close, St Pancras (RG10/215 37 p67-68 ):
William Boon, Head, m, 31, Chair frame sawyer, b. Middlesex, S Pancras
Sophia do, wife, 33, Needlewoman, b. do do
Alfred do, son, 14, Boy at coal shop, b. do do
Charles do, son, 12, b. do do
William do, son, 10, b. do do
James do, son, 8, b. do do
Jane do, daur, 6, b. do do
Edward do, son, 3, b. do do
Frederick Boon, son, 2 months, b. Middlesex, S Pancras
It would sort things out nicely if I could find a death registration for Sophia Boon but unfortunately I cannot. The two youngest children, Edward and Frederick, are about the right age to be the same pair found in the 1881 census so I am reasonably confident that this is the same William Boon. While it is not unusual for ladies to age by less than ten years between censuses I do not think that Sophia (1871) is the same person as Sarah (1881). I note a Jane Moon, age 6, in 1871: if she had died in the following five years the family might have passed her name to the next daughter born after the death but I cannot find a Jane Boon death in the period either. So it's all a bit dodgy but on balance if looks to me as if Henry Bryant's widow married the widower, William Boon and for 1881 little Jane was recorded as Boon in the census but recovered her Bryant name later in life.
All the best
Gobbo
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I think Gobbo has some excellent finds. How about trying to find a William Boon marrying a Sarah ca 1875 -1881? I'd try but I am way too tired...4:16am.
N
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William Boon
December 1875
Shoreditch
1c 367
On same page Sarah Ann GILDAY ::)
Trish
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for what it is worth, this could be William Boon's first marriage
By this time Charles and Alfred would have been born - so maybe it is his second!
but I cant see another one with a bride called Sophie or similar
MArriage
Oct/Nov/Dec 1859
Pancras
William Alexander Boon
one of brides - Sophee Emily Turnell
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Thanks everyone for all your thoughts - I definitely think there is something with the BOON connection - thansk 01DGobbo. I just can't seem to tie them up properly though with a marriage to Sophee and then her death etc. The 1871 and 1881 census for them do look like two lots of children from differnet marriages in the same family - cant seem to find them in 1891 with any confidence tho.
???
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I realise that this is an old thread but I'd done a bit of checking before I noted that.
As EC has already said she has checked the 1911 census and it says on there that she is a Widow. I also noticed that she did not sign the form but put her Mark - an X.
So she may have not known what was on the form.
No news there but looking at the Military Records on Ancestry I came across a Frederick VERRIER age 38 in 1914. His next of kin was his wife Elizabeth VERRIER of 50 Warren Street, Islington who he had married in London and her name was Elizabeth BRYANT; Spinster.
Children were Maude, George Frederick, Ellen.
So to describe Jane as a Widow in 1911 was an error or a lie.
Bryan
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Hello Bryan
Yes - you have got to the next installment of the mystery!...
I have puzzled for a while over that one, however there is no Frederick/George Verrier death record after 1911 except their son Frederick George in 1964. He also had a child called Frederick George who dies 1918 age 1, and a later son also called Frederick George b. 1921
Its all very strange and every time I look at this I come up with new possibilities, but nothing definite.
ec
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Hi ec
Yes this family are trying hard not to be found; even for those who could not write.
Did you ever get the death certificate of the Frederick G VERRIER who died in 1910 and at first sight would have been the husband of Jane Elizabeth? Who was he?
I had a look at Warren Street (both) in 1911 thinking that since Frederick and his son Frederick George both gave that as the address of their next of kin when they joined up then maybe the family were there in 1911 but no sign of them.
I think from something you said earleir that the family stayed in Risinghill street until Jane Elizabth died in 1940. Odd then that we have Warren Street and then, when Frederick the father was discharged in 1916, he gives 36 Claridon St., Euston Road (which I've not located). Maybe some Zepplin dropped a bomb on Risinghill Street.
Bryan
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Hi all-
I have a tiny bit of information for you. My maternal grandfather was the Frederick George born in 1921. He died in 2014. His father was Frederick George and he married Annie Wood.
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Hi- I’m trying to recall as many details as I can . My maternal grandfather was the Frederick George born in 1921. He didn’t like his name as he was named after a deceased brother. He had two sisters- May and Ellen ( Nell) and brothers William, John ( who was an Olympic swimming coach) and Alec the youngest one . My great grandad did indeed die in 1964- his wife was Anne Wood and her family came from Islington- her father was called Elvey Wood and her mother was Emma Day. I don’t know where they lived in London. In 1939 my grandad joined the RAF after he’d been working at Woolwich Arsenal since he was 14. I only met his mother in the 1980s when she lived at Dagenham. The only other bits I know, off the top of my head is that the Verrier family ( this branch) came from Somerset and one definite ancestor is a Cornelius Verrier who was imprisoned for debt in the early 1840s ( it stopped in 1844/5 I believe) . he was listed as a potato and egg dealer ( a costermonger) in Bind Street and Covent Garden . He was born in 1796 and married a Frederica Hiil ( b1797) His father was a John Verrier (b1757 ) and Cornelius died in 1868- July) I found that on aN ancestry website, but my mother also found these details on a census . He died in a workhouse of “liver” possibly drink?? According to the ancestry site - They had 5 kids- one a George Frederick ( 1835-1910) then a Charles (1831-?) John 1852-1905 and Hannah (1834-?) and Samuel (1837). Seems like the GFV who died in 1910 was my great-great grandfather. I can’t recall his wife’s name, by can try to find out.
Sorry- Bond Street not Bind! If you Google his name it comes up with a fair bit, including court records!
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Hi- I think I need to make a correction - all these George/Fredericks! I think that the GV who was on the 1871 census people have put on this thread as being 36 in 1871 is my great-great-great grandfather. He was the son of Cornelius
( b1796-1868) . I’m not sure when he died - possibly 1910 from what I read here? The FGV who was his son ( b1874) seems to have been in the services according to this thread and was still alive after 1916? My head’s spinning!
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Hi- I think I need to make a correction - all these George/Fredericks! I think that the GV who was on the 1871 census people have put on this thread as being 36 in 1871 is my great-great-great grandfather. He was the son of Cornelius
( b1796-1868) . I’m not sure when he died - possibly 1910 from what I read here? The FGV who was his son ( b1874) seems to have been in the services according to this thread and was still alive after 1916? My head’s spinning!
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Hello Vixenday
Yes we are definitely related 😀 it’s very confusing with all the Frederick Georges but in summary Frederick who was married to Annie Wood had siblings- Mary Ann Maud, known as Maud, George who was disabled after an accident, and Ellen (b 1907) who was my grandmother. Some people online have got her mixed up with the Ellen you mentioned but that is not the case. The parents of FG, Maud, George and Ellen were Frederick George and Jane Elizabeth Bryant. I have never yet been able to pin down his death - I originally thought he died prior to the 1911 census because she is shown as a widow but then I found some army service records that seem to indicate he signed up during the war.
Everything else you have tied up with my research.
My grandmother (Ellen), seemed to keep in touch with sister Maud and brother George and families but didn’t seem to be much in touch with Fred and Annie so much of what I know is by research and family stories 🙀
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Re: WWl records.
Frederick Verrier born 1876 born St Pancras (service number SS/7247) Army Service Corps- who gives the address 50 Warren Street, it states he has tattoos of a girl and a union jack on his arm.
His wife is Elizabeth Bryant spinster
Children are Maude, George Frederick and Ellen
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Frederick Verrier born 1870 (service number 697546) Labour Corps, give address 3 Risinhill Street, Pentonville.
His wife is Jane Elizabeth Bryant they married 6 October 1895
Children are George Charles born 1905
Ellen born 1908
NOTE the only George Charles born 1905 has mother's maiden name BOON
I cannot find the registration for Ellen
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Frederick George Verrier (service number 413397) Royal Army Service Corps, 5th Battalion, a newspaper distributor as a civilian. Born 1896
Address 16 Warren Street, Islington
Wife Annie Maud Wood married 23 May 1915
child William born 1 October 1917 Holborn
children
Frederick George 1916-1918 mmn Wood
William Edward 1917
Ellen M 1920
Frederick George 1921
May C 1924
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GRO Index with mother's maiden name Bryant
Mary Ann Maud reg. 1900 St Pancras Late registration (baptized 28 December 1899 born 27 November 1899)
Henry 1906
Jane Elizabeth 1910 died 1911 age 0
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Thank you among. You will see that this original post by me is some years old and I do have loads of info including all the service records etc. The post was resurrected by Vixenday as they realised the link to their own family.
Really the only big missing information is the death I mentioned
Thanks ec
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Thank you EC! My mother is the only child of Frederick George 1921-2014 and she was born in 1947 to him and my grandmother Edna nee Fryer 1926-1981. She married my Dad David Russell (b1944) and had two girls- me Victoria and my sister Emma. We both had girls- mine are Lauren b1998 and Roseanna b2000 hers are Anna b2005 and Megan b2009 . So my mum is your second cousin and I’m your second cousin once removed.
I got my information about the Verrier born in 1835 who supposedly died in 1910 from a ancestry site ( I’ve attached pics) which has fitted with my mums research - but I’m puzzled about the date of death for 1910 it gives.
You’ve seen the information I have going back from Ellen and FG’s dad along the Verrier line .
My mums done a bit of research as we know our mutual ancestor Cornelius came from Somerset and moved to London. Before him they were all from that part of the world. Beyond his father we have no more information. But there are still many Verriers in that area!
We also know, from history records that some male Verriers ( not sure of the actual connection to us) we’re involved in the Monmouth rebellion against the Catholic James II - my grandad said that our family were Huguenots so that makes sense! Definitely one was sent as a slave to the Americas and actually bought by a man along with others. I googled the name Verrier and Monmouth Rebellion and got the name of the ship and his master. Let’s hope he was freed at some point ( possible not long as the Protestant King William was on the throne quick soon!) and spread out the Verrier name into America!
Thank you for all your information- fascinating stuff!
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I think I might have missed this pic!
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Hello again
got my information about the Verrier born in 1835 who supposedly died in 1910 from a ancestry site ( I’ve attached pics) which has fitted with my mums research - but I’m puzzled about the date of death for 1910 it gives.
George John Verrier (sometimes Frederick I seem to remember) b. 1835 died in Jan 1910 in St Pancras workhouse
Its a while since I looked at the Verriers in detail so I would have to check properly
I think you will find that most of the information in ancestry trees originated from my trees which I started many years ago.
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Thank you!
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Someone seems to have moved this to the Yorkshire board. No idea why/ it’s by nothing to do with Yorkshire. The people are in London. Not sure how to move it back - can someone do this please
EC
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So why does George Charles born 1905 have mother's maiden name BOON
ADDED
I reread the attestation forms for each Frederick, you are assuming they are the same man.
Look at the signatures they are not the same.
1871 Frederick has 2 children GEORGE CHARLES and Ellen
1876 Frederick has 3 children, Maude, GEORGE FREDERICK and Ellen
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1876 Frederick says his father is Edward Verrier and mother is Jane Elizabeth- his wife is Elizabeth and he can't remember when they married (so they probably didn't)
1870 Frederick remembers exactly when he was married 6 October 1895 to Jane Elizabeth Bryant
1876 Frederick is of 50 Warren Street and is discharged to 36 Claredon Street, Ruston Road.
1870 Frederick address is always Rising Hill Street, Pentonville.
1876 Frederick has tattoos on his medical form
1870 Frederick does not.
1876 has a pale complexion, brown eyes and fair hair
1870 has a fresh complexion, brown eyes and fair hair.
I would ask are they cousins?
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So why does George Charles born 1905 have mother's maiden name BOON
Because his mother Jane Elizabeth Bryant grew up with her mother who was living with William BOON and was known as Boon for most of her life pre marriage. Given this was her everyday name it is not difficult to image that she gave this name when registering the birth. I have the birth cert and it is definitely her/him.
There are two Frederick/George Verriers - father and son. The father was not present at Risinghill street in 1911 and Jane was described as widowed. By 1921 he was back in the family home in Risinghill Street. The son (who was much older than the other children) was not listed as a child when his father enlisted in 1919 as he was no longer a child and had in fact already married and enlisted himself. He lived in Warren Street.
There is much fluidity with names in this family Frederick George (father) married as George and appeared as Frederick Charles on his daughter Ellens marriage record. He had brothers called George and Charles so it is quite confusing but I have all the records and I am pretty sure all the military records belong to one or the other. I just have no death record for the elder.
Thanks
EC