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Research in Other Countries => Canada => Topic started by: susanmj on Saturday 16 May 09 20:53 BST (UK)
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Trying to trace Joseph Eligah Seeley born 18 Jan.1898. According to WWI attestation papers his mother was Mrs. J. Dubroy of Sudbury, Ontario. Would like to find details of parents and siblings
thank you ;D
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Please ignore... been on the computer too long. I completely blew it by disregarding the middle name you posted. :P :-[
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Here is a good bet for his family in 1911. You can look at the original at automatedgenealogy.com
Seeley Colin M Head M Feb 1872 39
Seeley Nellie F Wife M Dec 1876 35
Seeley Duncan M Son S Aug 1887 14
Seeley Joseph M Son S Mar 1898 13
Seeley George M Son S Dec 1900 10
Seeley Edith F Daughter S Feb 1906 5
The family might be in 1901 also, but names are a bit confusing.
mod: aha! Joseph in 1901 is "J. Charles age 3", but transcribed as "L. Charles".
See also tree at http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=gougenie&id=I15398
Nick
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Came across lots of details on family of Colin & Nellie Seeley with a son Joseph but information doesn't fit.
Wondering if this might be Joseph Eligah's mother and her 2nd family in 1911 (Sudbury and Nipissing are next to each other I think)-
1911 Haileysburg, Nipissing, Ontario
James Dubroy? born Oct.1881 Ontario (French descent)
wife Minnie Dubroy? born Aug.1879 Quebec? (Irish descent)
son Clarence Dubroy? born Oct.1909 Ontario
daughter Lena Dubroy? born Dec.1910 Ontario
Partially extracted details below:
Birth: Clarence Alexander Dubroy, 1 Oct.1909, father James Christopher Dubray prospector, mother Minnie Florence Scott
Marriage: 11 Feb.1909, James Dubray, son of Alex Dubray + Melinda Belangier, to Minnie Scott, 28, dau. of William Scott + Cathern Johnson.
Minnie Dunray died 13 Nov.1918 (pneumonia- 1 week) at Timiskaming district, Ont., born Masham, Ont.
Possibly Joseph Eligah Seeley going to Ireland-
7 March 1920 "Melita" arrived Liverpool, England from St. John, New Brunswick, Canada, Joseph E. Seeley, 28, labourer, Easter? St. Roscommon.
If this record is correct perhaps Joseph served in WWI, met his wife and then went over to Roscommon where they married and had family.
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thank you we now think that is correct and my grandmar was from liverpool so you must me right they went over to ireland as i know my gran was not happy in liverpool he also did serve in WW1
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The age of Joseph E. Seeley on the Melita is out by about 6 years if the date of birth on the attestation papers is correct and if that is the correct family on the 1911 census then where is Joseph. He would have been 13 at the time but isn't with that family.
Susan, can you provide more information on who Joseph married and where? Do you have a copy of the marriage registration?
Jacquie
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James wasn't the next husband either, as Minnie did die, but in 1918... it also says she was married at the time...
plus Joseph's signup was in 1916
Found a Joseph Dubroy in 1891 census for Nippising, but doesn't help much as no marriages to be found
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/census-1891/001081-119.02-e.php?person_id_nbr=2149396
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hi guys thank for the help i really carnt tell you much i am waiting the return of my sister to ask her for more info i know that my granddad did lie about his age ? but i don't know ether that was for WW1 or WW2 ? Joseph marred Kathleen McDonnell and my grandma was from Liverpool ? they spent a lot of yrs in Belfast
my granddad passed away in 1972 when i was 4 but my older bro and sister remember him
if this is any help i do know that my granddads brother was a mayor of a town in canada but don't know which one ?
i will post tonight when my sister is back
thank you all so much ;D
sorry guys forgot to add my sister said she did see a old picture of granddads family she said she remembered how they was dressed she think they was natives to canada ?
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I'm just rather confused about everything. Joseph Eligah Seeley didn't have to lie about his age on his WWI attestation papers. The date of birth listed meant he turned 18 about 8 months prior to enlisting. If he were born before 1898 it wouldn't make sense to lie to make himself younger when he enlisted in WWI. Or if he was born after 1898 that would make the age on that passenger list entry really out. All that being said, are you certain that the Joseph Seeley you are looking for is Joseph Eligah Seeley? There were other Joseph Seeleys who were in the Canadian military for WWI. Do you have any documents regarding Joseph where his middle name is listed? Do you have a marriage registration for Joseph marrying your grandmother? Do you have his death certificate? Can you get a copy of his WWII military file? If he lied about his year of birth to fight in WWII, he would have no reason to change the day and month of his birth so that might help figure this out.
Jacquie
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oh jac i see what you are saying now ? i will ring my sister to ask more and no we have nothing but his name ? she did say he wasnt very tall and he had black hair blue eyes he was also RC she did also say he had half siblings ?
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my sister told me that when he died it said age 74 on his stone but our dad told her he was really 72 but this could be a lie as it seems so many was told us
she did however say that Joseph eilgah seeley is my granddads name she is 100% sure of that
this is more info my dads siblings john seeley James seeley Kathleen seeley and Charles seeley now charles seeley had a twin broth called eilgah seeley who died at 6 months old ? these have all passed away now so yet again limted info we think they was all born in Ireland or maybe N Ireland for some of them ?
they seemed to have roamed quite a bit ?
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sorry after talking to my sister we have no other info on my granddad
thanks for your help jac and the restxxxx
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hi guys just wounderd if anymore info has been found we have now got nothing other than what you have found and you do have the right man joseph eligah seeley is deffo my grandad oh what a long process this is but anything would be really really usefull or can anyone give me any tips on how to search more ? i would be very very greatful
and thank you to all that has helped so far
you really dont know what it means to my family
THANK YOU ;D
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I just read through all the above and the information is quite confusing. See is you can positively answer any of these questions and then look for bmd certificates.
Do you have his military records for WWI? They are available through Collections Canada for a fee. You may get a lot more information from the file than from just the attestation papers. If he was born in Canada as it suggests through the attestation papers, you should be able to find a birth certifcate for him.
Do you have his marriage certificate and do you have the knowledge of where the marriage took place?
Do you have his death certificate? You may get valuable information from any certificate.
He appears to have lived in Canada, Britain and Ireland. Do you know where his children were born and do you have any of their birth certificates.
Do you know if your grandfather had any brothers or sisters as well as half brothers or sisters and any of their names?
Do you know what his occupation was? Depending on his occupation, where he lived etc., he could have been out working at age 12 which means he could be on a census with another family.
It was not unusual for mistakes to be made on any documents especially age. Many people did not read or write well and their were sometimes language barriers as well. I would start with your own father's birth certificate and work backwards from there to try and find as many bmd certificates as possible and a time line from there. Good luck.
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i am really sorry i know it is all confusing this is why it is very hard finding anything out am affraid my farther never told us anthing as for getting deaths certs or marriage certs and such this is a no no he will take them to his grave its hard as we have nothing at all to do with my farther this was his wish to never have any of his six children contact him ever again and all i can say is most of the info has come from my older brother and sister
sorry i carnt help
this is why it has been so difficult for us
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I think you may have more information to work from than you think.
Write down everything that you know about each individual you are trying to find, no matter how small or insignificant you think the information is. What you have been telling us is very confusing, don't know if your father is alive or not. You do not need his permission to get certificates on your grandfather.
For your grandfather, you can access his military records at www.collectionscanada.ca
go to library and archives Canada, Soldiers of the First World War, under search - enter name, under results - access Joseph E. Seeley, under Item Display - How to consult a file on site or order a copy of the file. You can order this file through a secure site on line. If you have problems accessing this through collections Canada, google Soldiers of the first world war.
The description on the file describes the same features that you stated above so order the file and see what is in it.
You know that he married Kathleen McDonnell but where, was it in Liverpool, England. If so, you should be able to find the marriage certificate and order it. You also know that he died in 1972 and there is a headstone. Where is he buried. That should lead you to the avenue to order his death certificate. Most countries allow family members to order the certificates.
You have the names of your father's siblings. Follow up on those. Do you know where they lived and also where they died. If you have this information, you may be able to access information.
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hi sorry it is all confusing to us too we have so little to go on and the fact that some of it could be lies dosnt help
we was told nothing about our grandperents like i said my older brother and sister told us what they knew
i will go have a good luck round maybe try with my farthers siblings although i dont know were they died
THANK YOU FOR THE ADVICE ;D
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If he was adopted, or not yet listed home child, he may have just simply written his home town as his birth place.... Spelled "Joseph Eligha Seeley" now on a return passenger's list...so he may be returning from the war, or is this his initial entry to Canada...either way, could someone check to see what this entry says for age, place of birth, etc.?
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If he was adopted, or not yet listed home child, he may have just simply written his home town as his birth place.... Spelled "Joseph Eligha Seeley" now on a return passenger's list...so he may be returning from the war, or is this his initial entry to Canada...either way, could someone check to see what this entry says for age, place of birth, etc.?
On the passenger list you refer to he was listed with returning troops. There are no details as to age, place of birth, etc. It does say that his residence was Dill Siding, Ontario and his next of kin was his mother (no names are listed).
Jacquie
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You really need to send for the full military file, as there is usually personal information on it, including a will...
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/001042-130-e.html?PHPSESSID#h
http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gat2/084321a.gif
if you are all absolutely sure that the name and the date of birth matches that of your grandfather....you will need all the information that you can get to trace him back...and this would be worth the expense just to have information of an ancestor anyway
So they were still in the Sudbury district after the war as well...Do either of these family names Seeley/Dubroy show up in the 1916 census... ?
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I checked the 1881 census for Minnie Scott and her parents names were Abel and Kate, they are in the Parry Sound Muskoka area which is 100 miles south of Sudbury. Sudbury is Algoma and Nipissing is North Bay. I haven't been able to locate any birth info on Joseph Seeley even using variants. I know that no one has mentioned it but could he have been illigitimate and adopted the name Seeley, his death record would have his birth name. I also checked the Ontario Cenetary Finding Aid and there is only one Dubroy in Nipissing.
Karen
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yes I think we established that the only way that couple could have been the likely parents was if they adopted him post census....
Not that it's all that crucial at this stage...but OGSON states:
The Algoma/Nipissing boundary was in different places for each of the census years of 1891, 1901, 1911. Modern Sudbury district was formed as an Ontario provincial judicial and administrative district in 1909 by taking some townships from the Eastern edge of Algoma and some from the Western edge of Nipissing. These changes did not show federally until the 1921 census.
Nippising: 1901 / 1911 census Sudbury Town / Fournier Ward ...Sudbury Town / McCormick Ward...Sudbury Town / Ryan Ward
http://automatedgenealogy.com/census/District.jsp?districtId=92
http://automatedgenealogy.com/census11/Test3.jsp?did=99
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Hi all, I know this is a very old thread, but rather than start a new one I thought I would re-activate it. I am also a grandchild of Joseph Eligah Seeley, though from a different stem than that of Susan. I have carried out much research into the elusive J E and have acquired a lot of additional info, but still cannot find his family on the various Canadian censuses.
I suppose the best place to start is to list the additional information I have. So in no particular order (as they say), here goes.
On his son James(my late father) birth cert, he is listed as Joseph G. Seeley.
On his marriage cert in 1920, he is listed as Francis Joseph Eligha Seeley and his father's name is listed as Francis Chas Seely(no final E) and his father's occupation is listed as a miner. My only surviving uncle has told me previously that Joseph's father died of copper poisoning at a young age from working in the mines.
My uncle has also previously informed me that Joseph had 2 brothers, Charles and Ned.
The following information is taken from Joseph's Canadian Army service record.
His mother's forenames are variously listed as J E and Mary Ann. i think we can discount the J E as these are Joseph's initials! So that leaves his mother called Mary Ann something. In different parts of his service record her surname is listed as Dubroy, Dubriel and Dubreil.
Her place of residence is variously listed as Coniston, Sudbury and Dill Siding. Tellingly, I presume, the details listed on where Joseph's army pay should be sent to are
Mrs Mary A Dubreil, Dill Siding Ontario.
His DOB on his attestation papers is given as 18-1-1898 but at his demob he gives his DOB as 25-1-1900.
He travelled from Canada to England on 30-4-1917 on board the SS Megantic and returned to Canada after the war on 4-10-1919 on board the SS Belgic.
The only other piece of info I have that may help identify his family is that in 1908, as a young boy aged 8 or 10, depending on which DOB is correct, he lost half of the thumb and 2 fingers of his left hand in the exploding of a dynamite detonator. This event may or may not have been newsworthy at the time.
As I say, although I have all this information, I appear no nearer to finding his family in any census.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks.
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that is my granddad he had fingers and thumb missing on his left hand
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hi city hall you have found my granddad the only other info I can give you is he had 5 kids with my grandmar ? james seeley john seeley Charles seeley Kathleen seely and francis seeley .francis seeley is my farther. can you tell me if my granddad was married before ?
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susanmj nice to have a rellie posting....especially one who sent for the ww1 info!
Hello City Hall and welcome to the site! If you could post one more time so we can private message you.... and yes, never make a new thread when one is existing, thanks for your foresight. J.J.
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In case he was an uncle...George Seely, wife Agnes & family 1911 & 1921 ( also had a Joseph and a Charles)
http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census11/SplitView.jsp?id=86187
1921 http://www.rootschat.com/links/0zce/
Oh, this is the same George who had wife Francis in 1901 and Mary Daley the adopted daughter in 1901
http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census/ViewFrame.jsp?id=95283&highlight=26
although I've found four various spellings of Dubreuil in Nipissing 1921 ( 3 in Airy), I see no mary
There is a burial Airy for a DUBREUIL, Mary Jane - St Martin of Tours Roman Catholic
Nipissing Airy NP-4050 ??
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O.k. I finally found the connection!!!...
perhaps she was born out of wedlock using her mother's maiden name. Nope I disproved this in next posting
marriage January 7 1897 Sudbury, Nipissing, Ontario, Canada
Francis Chas Sealey b. 1872 parents Joseph Sealey & Henrietta Laronde
spouse Mary Ann Mcneiley b. 1879 parents Charles Mcneiley & Catherine Dubreuil
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KZYB-YVP
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F25L-NDH
You'd have to investigate the double entry..... he may have had a twin or they covered both spellings? http://www.nipissingongenweb.org/vitstat.html
SEALEY, Joseph 26-Oct-1897 (Town) Sudbury fthr: Francis Chas. mother:McNULTY, Mary Ann
SEELEY, No Name 26-Oct-1897 McKim fthr: SEELEY, Frank mother:Not Given
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Nope I was wrong there is more Dubreuil ......Marriage 10 Feb 1901 Sudbury, Nipissing, Ontario,
Edward Dubreuil 23 /1878 William Dubreuil & Olive Gervais
Mary Ann Mc Neil Sealy 24 /1877 John Mc Neil & Catherine Dubreuil
I did see an Edward and made me wonder about "NED" but I didn't see a Mary, I think she used her next name...as mary is often a French Catholic forename, which can be dropped... ( as is Joseph and many other Saint's names)
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Great finds, J.J.!
Given other records, I suspect that the Charles as the father of Mary Ann s/b John. Also, the mother as McNulty could almost be McNeelly on the image.
There is a death of a Francis Seely 32 on 20 Dec 1899 in Renfrew that may be connected. It was registered by Mrs Francis Seely, so no first name, unfortunately. This man was a farmer and died of TB, which doesn't match the info given earlier. However...
Mary Ann is a Widow when she marries Edward Dubreuil. There was an Edward Dubreuil as witness to Mary's marriage to Francis. Perhaps the same Edward?
The children born to this apparent second marriage of Mary Ann that I found birth records for have Mary Ann McNeely (with a wide variation of spellings) as their mother.
Eligah can be found with this family group in the 1911 census on Ancestr*, indexed as Eliza Dubrell but the image is clearly Eligah. He is indexed as Eligal Dubrell at automatedgenealogy.com (free to use and original images are provided). It was common for children to take the surname of their stepfather when they were young. The other children would be half-siblings to Eligah.
A warm welcome to RootsChat, Town Hall :).
So, much food for thought....
PB
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I just found them in 1911 as well... ;D polarbear!
Maryanne as McNeley in 1891 with parents & siblings
http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/1891/jpg/30953_148157-00315.jpg
The site I posted earlier with Joseph's birth also has William Clifford Dubreuil's birth- mother as McNealy, Jean Howard has mother as MacNeil
and to confuse the issue another child with first name Mary ...( I have seen families of all sons on census named Joseph so be happy it was not also used on census...)
Mary Florence McNeely...March 4 1891 Bonfield parents John McNeely & Catherine Dubruiel item also says...Reg. By self, married name Howey or Harvey?
Holy Mackeral they had five more after the 1891...trying to populate the the area all by themselves ;D
http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census/ViewFrame.jsp?id=94638&highlight=18
Just hit the LINKS to see them in 1911 as well
I'll add one more from 1851 as Joseph born U.S. appears with a Harriet amongst "La Rone " family in Carleton...Appears to be a one year old Jane as well. http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census52/View.jsp?id=1181&highlight=10&desc=1852+Census+of+Canada+page+containing+Hariet+Seely
do let us know if you need more help, although it should be easier to follow them now.
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Hi Susanmj, sorry for the delay in replying. No, I'm very sure Joseph was NOT married twice. Bear in mind, he was married in 1920 to our grandmother Kate McDonnell when he was aged 20, 21 or 22. It is very unlikely he was previously married prior to this date.
Regards.
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Hi JJ and polarbear. JJ, sorry for the delay in replying and thank you both for welcoming me to the forum. Please regard this post as a 'holding' reply. Things are starting to look very interesting from both your most recent posts. I have only glanced over them very quickly, but I am getting excited. Please indulge me while I read them more thoroughly, and then I will post a more comprehensive reply. Thank you again for taking the time to help.
Regards.
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good evening jj and polarbear can I just take this time to thank you so much for all your help .I am cob smacked with all the info you have given us .am still trying to digest it all
to city hall we must be cousins I jnow my dads brother james seeley stayed in Ireland and had kids I think you are one of the kids from james and Sheila? anyway way its so nice to know you am susan Jeffery(seeley) and am the youngest daughter of your uncle francis seeley
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There were a lot of helpers in this search, I rather lucked upon some info with the right search keywords. Let us know if you need more help...The French Catholic naming can be difficult to decipher...the phonetic versionscan be just about anything...as you saw from Dubroy, Debrul, etc.
Note the Dubrois? surname for Catherine in the birth entry for Thomas Harvey McNeely
and I just saw this one for Clara's birth & Catherine's surname makes no sense at all??
McNEELY, Clara Isabella March 14 1893 Bonfield -parents John McNEELY & Catherine GELROY/Gilroy
Even Catherine's death in 1930 has surname Dubroy
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JK42-2FW
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Susanmj, I have sent you a PM.
Regards.
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The Canada census has images you can peruse as well.... John McNeeley was born in Ontario, his parents are listed as both being from Ireland.
In 1852 census the page has been transcribed thus as 3 separate surnames:
McNelly, John Farmer/Ireland/Catholic /38/M
McNuly, Cathrine Ireland/Catholic/29/F
McNely, John Canada/Catholic/8/M
McNely, Patrick Canada/Catholic/6/M
McNely, Honora Canada/Catholic/4/F
McNely, M?Ann Canada/Catholic /2/F
bottom of page then says it could also be McNulty or McNally, hehe...
http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census52/View.jsp?id=20716&highlight=16
You can look under McNelly in 1871 census, where they have eight children
http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/census/1871/Pages/1871.aspx
This person had her surname as Fergus, and appears to have a marriage etc. for them.
Something for you to check through...
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/SHAMROCK/2006-05/1146599487
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Hi Susanmj, J.J. and polarbear,
This is how I have distilled all the info supplied by your good selves.
Joseph Sealey Married Henrietta Laronde John McNeiley Married Catherine Dubreuil
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Francis Chas Sealey Married Mary Ann McNeilly
(Died 1899) - =
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Joseph Eligah Seeley =
(Born 1897) =
=
=
Edward Dubreuil Married Mary Ann McNeilly
(2nd Marriage)
(Married 1901)
Questions
Am I right in assuming there is no evidence that Joseph had 2 full brothers called Charles and Ned?
If Mary Ann McNeilly's mother's maiden name was Dubreuil, do you think her 2nd husband, Edward Dubreuil, was in fact her 1st or 2nd cousin? I certainly do!!
If Francis Chas died on 20/12/1899, and Mary Ann married Edward Dubreuil on 10/02/1901, then who is the father of William, born December 1900(as per 1911 census). I presume it was Edward,before they got married.
Susanmj, we now know our great grandparents and our Great great grandparents on Joseph Eligah's side.
City Hall.
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thank you city hall ;D
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William Clifford Dubreuil was actually b. 01 Dec 1901 according to the birth record. Father Edouard Dubreuil, mother Mary Ann McNealy. Birth district Nipissing.
I think the 1900 as year of birth would have been calculated by the enumerator based on the age given, or something similar.
PB
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That birth is on that list of Nipissing births link which has a few generations of information for you, although of course, not all.
Francis Chas Seely & Mary Anne married 1897 and he died a few years later, so there is not room for living births in that amount of time unless they were born out of wedlock.
The thought that there was a twin appears to have some weight, though...again from that link.
There may have been a baptismal forename, though, since it was a live birth. The one birth has "McKim" whereas Joseph's was Sudbury. McKim is part of Sudbury, but it was once a separate entity I think?
The death in Renfrew 1899 could be good as that is where you can find the parents Joseph and Henrietta in 1871 with son Francis and siblings ...and if not visiting them, brother John & Alex and likely others are still there later in life
http://data2.collectionscanada.ca/1871/jpg/4396765_00044.jpg
altho, hmmmm This may be the ancestor, remarried, to a Catherine? http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census/ViewFrame.jsp?id=46970&highlight=8
although it says born Ontario not United States it is likely correct person if you check all the inlaws, and his proximity to Alexander makes it look good...
http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/1891/jpg/30953_148168-00352.jpg
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altho here is Harriet living with John in 1881 http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/e/e327/e008173477.jpg
But then here is a death for her in 1884 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JK85-L26
Noted that she can be found a.k.a. Harriet Larone
Joseph appears to have died 1906 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JXWM-STP
ah here is, in 1881 household McCullum family and Jane is likely his first born from the 1851 census. Maybe he was helping out family on census day
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/MVXF-4ZR
the children's marriages have conflicting information on his birth place as well...
Here's a little info which may or may not be entirely correct on Catherine Mcleod /Black Seeley, Durbrow
http://boards.ancestry.ca/thread.aspx?mv=flat&m=979&p=surnames.mcleod