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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Armagh => Topic started by: Dav on Tuesday 12 May 09 05:54 BST (UK)
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Hello I am trying to find a bit of info on Henry Somerville.
Henry was born about 1806 and died 19/11/1872 in Ballyhannon where he owned a farm.
Henry had a brother called George who lived in Ballydugan which I think is in county Down, also two brothers who were much younger ( they may have been half brothers) namely Sloan and Youngson.
Henry married twice firstly to a Hannah Thornton she died about 1852/1853, then to Caroline Brown in 1854 she died in 1900.
Henry had 7 children by Hannah, namely John b1838 d 1894, Joseph b 1840 d 1921, Simon b about 1842 d 1926, James, David Thornton b 1865 d 1925, Sarah d 1915 and Hannah died young.
By Caroline Henry had 7 children namely Annie b 1858 d after 1912, Edmund b 1860 d 1925, Hannah b 1862 d 1939, Ralph b 1864 d young, William b 1865 d after 1911, Henry b 1867 d young and Mary b 1869 d 1928.
Of Henry's children from Hannah Thornton I know the following, John went to Australia in the late 1850s, Joseph went to New Zealand in 1875 then to Australia in 1883, Simon stayed in Portadown married had children and died in 1926, James went to the USA pre 1871, David went to the USA in 1864, Sarah ( Sadie) married in 1869 to James Wilson, I think she died Portadown in 1915.
Henry's children by Caroline Brown I know the following, Annie married a James Wilson in 1878 in Belfast and died sometime after 1912 in Belfast, Edmund went to New Zealand in about 1890, Hannah married John Davison in 1882 at Seagoe and went to Canada soon after then to the USA, William married Mary Sleator in 1897 at Kilkeel County Down and then went to Manchester,
Mary married Alexander Chambers in 1892 at Banbridge County Down they lived on /owned? a Farm in Ballydugan in 1911.
Thanks
Dav
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hi dav,
there are a couple of things which you might or might not know but i'll post them in case you don't.
the will's for henry and george are held by PRONI;
http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/will_calendars/wills_search.htm
this is just an index but you can order a copy.there are maybe other mentions of the family in the will calendars or the e-catalogue.
the marriage of mary somerville to alexander chambers,12-may-1892,took place in gilford presbyterian church,parish of tullylish.the banbridge you have for them is just the civil district they got married in.
a possible marriage for simon somerville-mary jane fitzsimons,20-nov-1877,high street methodist church,shankill parish,lurgan.
reading between the lines i think you've looked at the 1911 census for the family in counties down and antrim but watch out for county armagh going online in mid july :)
if you have these already; then no harm done ;)
tony
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John Sommerville of Ballydougan might be a son of George. John's family emigrated to upstate NY after John died. George Somerville remained in Ballydougan and was married to a Rachel, but I could not find evidence them being brothers.
I think Youngston's son William moved to Canada where he married in 1885 to Fanny Rankin. Youngston wife was Elizabeth Dynes says the Ontario record on-line. She may have been Elizabeth Gilpin, widowed wife of a Dynes as I saw a marriage record with Richard Gilpin as a Youngston father in law. I thought I had also seen Isabella Dynes mentioned as a possible alternative name. THere was also a daughter Elizabeth born December 03, 1867 and possibly the Youngston married in 1886 in Moira is a son.
John Sommerville above had married Martha Dynes from my Dynes/Adamson family of Ballydougan. If there is a connection between Dynes, I would love to know.
James Somerville Wilson, son of Annie Somerville was at Conlig and Duncairn Presbyterian Church as a minister says family notes. Daughters Edith and Anna were teachers. I have the Ballydougan Wilson tree and it is on-line.
I have been trying to follow Somervilles and wondering if the Somervilles in Co. Armagh in 1901 were related. I will sort through your letter and the census and see what develops.
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Seagoe Marriage records have Pierce Sommerville and Margaret Slone of Seagoe marrying in January of 1827. When Sloan Somerville b. about 1830 got married in 1852 to Ann Mathers, he said he was a loom warper living in Tullydugan and his father Pierce was a glass merchant.
Also married in 1852 was George Somerville of Ballygargan born about 1822. He married Ann Hopps of Ballyhannon and George also had a father Pierce.
Pierce was probably dead in the 1860's when Griffith;s was published, but there is a widowed Margaret in Shankill. Do you know if she is living with John who is also listed in Seagoe? I can't reach the new site that lists that information.
Are you thinking that Pierce and Henry were brothers and he took in Margaret's children after Pierce died?
George Somerville in Ballydougan in 1901 says he was born in Armagh about 1855 and John was born about 1862 in Down, married a Ballydougan lady and moved to Portadown by 1901. If they are brothers, I gather that a father George must have moved to Ballydougan in the late 1850's. Are you thinking this potential father George is the brother of Henry?
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To Tony and KatC
firstly sorry in taking so long in getting back to you both and thank you for the info you both sent.
Tony you are right in that I have been looking at the 1911 Census of Down and Antrim, they have been helpful, but I am really hanging out for 1901 and 1911 Census of Armagh.
I have obtained the Will of Henry Somerville from PRONI, it was a fairly informative Will and confirmed George Somerville of Ballydougan was indeed Henry's brother, so I have now sent away for his Will, hopefully it will be as informative as Henry's Will.
The Simon Somerville marrying Mary Fitzimons is ours.
KatC thanks for the info you sent in both of your replies, I have been going through all my info on the Somervilles to see if I can make a connection with the John Somerville who married Martha Dynes, but I can't at the moment.
I do know that Hery Somerville and George Somerville were brothers both sons of a Pierce Somerville.
I know that George Somerville was firstly married to a Elizabeth Williamson and had 2 sons to her namely Samuel b 1843 and Benjamin b 1847 ( there may have been other children )
Samuel got married in Tullyish to a Sarah Joyce and had a couple of sons before coming to Queensland Australia, Samuel died in Queensland in 1879, his brother Benjamin also went to Queensland sometime before 1874 where he got married and then in the early 1880s he went to Melbourne where he died in 1912.
I think the George Somerville who married Rachel is George's son by his second wife Ann Hopps
The Pierce Somerville who married Margaret Slone in 1827 must be the father of Sloan Somerville and Youngson Somerville, but I am not sure how he is related to Henry and George, I tend to think he is either their father or he is their brother.
I have found a Pierce Somerville living in Ballydougan in 1759 and a Pierce Somerville of Ballydougan who's Will was proved in 1816 they could be one of the same of two individuals like father and son, I think they must be related to Henry and George, possibly Grandfather or Father.
Sloan Somerville married and had a daughter called Mary b about 1854 who married a John Tremaine in 1873 in Canada, but I haven't been able to find out anything else about Sloan Somerville.
Youngson married Elizabeth Dynes in 1855 and I know of 3 children namely William b 1856 who married in Canada to Fanny Rankin, Stephen b 1863 and died in Melbourne in 1943 and Elizabeth b 1867 and died near Melbourne in 1904.
( Your John Somerville could possibly be a son of Youngson hopefully the Will of George Somerville will confirm this or not )
I think Youngson Somerville then remarried to Elizabeth Emerson a Widow the daughter of Richard Gilpin on 12/07/1886 Youngson was described as a widower.
A lot of the Somerville's seemed to go to Canada, I find a Pierce Somerville in Simco Canada who was b 1798 and died in 1892? he is said to have been born in Tynan ( not sure if I have spelt that right ) County Armagh.
I hope you can follow my Ramblings.
Ps KateC I can't find your Ballydougan Wilson family tree online, can you tell me where to look.
Thanks
Dav
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I sent you the information on James Wilson who married Annie Somerville. Dates match within a year and my James and Annie also lived in Belfast. They were back in Co. Armagh for the 1901 census, but I don't know where they eventually lived.
If you talk to Jim, you might ask if your Somervilles went to Christchurch as Wilsons went there.
Alexander Chambers was fairly old. Do you know if he were widowed?
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I have been looking at the 1911 Census of Down and Antrim, they have been helpful, but I am really hanging out for 1901 and 1911 Census of Armagh.
i know the feeling dav!
tony
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My grandfather was Edmund, one of the 18 children, of Henry and I could provide more information on his six children (one of whom, Helen, is still alive at 92), and their descendants, who live largely in NZ and Australia.
My father Edmund Reay died in 2000 at 90 and visited his aunt Annie (daughter of Henry) in Ireland in August 1937 and she provided him with four pages of notes on the family history as she recalled it. These are quite dense and I will need to figure out how to attach them as an image this being my first time on this site.
However her first paragraph may be helpful:
"Great grandfather, one of three brothers, Pierce, Jacques and George came from Warwickshire to buy horses from Ireland for the English army, and remained to settle in Ireland. The surname at that time was pronounced Somerelle although the spelling not known. The same pronunciation was retained off and on for some time afterwards and is still occasionally heard. They were french Hugenot stock, as were many of the progenitors of the Northern Irish where they were largely responsible for the development of the linen industry. Pierce (great grandfather) had issue: Henry (grandfather) George, Pierce, John, (never married) Joseph (died young) Anne, Jane, Betty, Mollie, Charlotte"
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I presume the references to "great grandfather etc" I quoted must be from my father's perspective and not from Aunt Annie's from whom he obtained the information for these notes. She was Henry's daughter, and Edmund's sister, and must have been about 80 when my father met her as her daughters were in their 50's
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I am very interested in your information on the Somervilles. I have just obtained the marriage certificate for Henry Somerville and Caroline Brown dated 1st November 1854. The certificate records Pierce Somerville, farmer, as Henry's father and Terence Brown, weaver, as Caroline's father. Mary Somerville, their youngest daughter, is my great grandmother. Your aunt Helen is my grandmother's cousin. I would love to know more about the Somervilles and Browns.
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I am a bit confused about the timing of Somervilles. There have been Pierce Somervilles in Ballydougan since mid 1700's. One died 1758 (no location listed) and was old enough to have a will. He probably had a son Pierce as PRONI lists a Pierce there in 1769. That Pierce may be the one who died in 1816. The Pierce we are talking about was still having children at that point, so it is not he. There is a George d. 1841, John d. 1846, and earlier Nicholas d. 1778 and Thomas d. 1728 nearby in Ballynagarrick.
There also is a Pierce in Ballygargin who probably had daughter Jane "Sommeral" who married John Jones of Lisnamintry in 1824.
The Warwickshire link sounds very firm, but the number of Pierces in the area makes me wonder if the family has been in the area longer. Do you have more information on early Somervilles?
Also
Was Mary Somerville who married Alexander Chambers a second wife? Was Alexander previously married to Elizabeth Chambers?
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Hello,
Alexander Chambers was a bachelor of about 43 when he married Mary Somerville who would have been about 23.
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I am afraid my great aunt annie's notes about the ancestry of her father, Henry, are limited to the paragraph I have quoted. However she had a detailed knowledge of her own generation and I will get the remainder of her notes up asap.
Perhaps there were already relatives in Ireland that prompted the three brothers to go there. The Warwickshire and Irish locations would broadly fit with the patterns of Huguenot immigration in the 18th century.
Anecdotally their horse selling business was driven by demand during the Napoleonic wars so this could frame a time when they moved to Ireland.
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I now have a PDF of Aunt Annie's 1937 notes on the descendants of Henry Somerville and Caroline Brown but it is 1800 KB which exceeds the maximum attachment size of 500 KB. Is there an easy way around this problem so I can make them available to anyone who is interested? It sheds quite a lot of light on some of the questions raised in this topic including listing all 10 children of Pierce (who included Henry George and Pierce in whom we seem most interested) and the 18, 9 and 8 children these three sons respectively produced.
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If anyone is interested in the information they can contact you by PM with their email address so you can send it to them that way.
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Hello Somerville researchers. I am a Johhny come lately and don't have anything to contribute but I hope that I can learn a lot.
I joined in the Gilpin forum as my first post and discovered your saga.
My g g Grandfather was Richard Gilpin whose daughter Elizabeth 1855- 20/12/1923 in Rockhampton Queensland Australia married Youngston Somerville in I thought in 1877 when she was 22 according to her death cer t which I have a copy of.A family researcher thought she had gone to Canada and when Youngston died she came to Qld Australia in June 1908. Did she stay in Armagh and then came out to join her brother Richard in Queensland.
With help from the Armagh forum I find she married Thomas Emmerson first in 1877 then Youngston in 1886.
Youngston born 1834 dying in 1907 was first married to Elizabeth Dynes in 1855.
I hope I have this correct. Wud u be able to help me with the Somerville line.
KatC did u have a copy of that marriage cert that showed Richard Gilpin as father in law. or anyone?
Any info on the Gilpins and Youngston S and his line wud be greatly appreciated.
this is my first foray into the message boards and the Irish Records the help has been fantastic.
Thanks Macka
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Dav
Regarding your question on 12 of May. I'm sorry to say that I have nothing to offer you. I'm not researching the Somervilles of Balyhannon. My question is about something that you said in your first statement about Hannah Somerville and John Davison. I am researching the Davison's of Ballygargan and I have a realative by the name of Mary Jane Davison who married Alexander Davison in 1882. The 2 witnesses were a Hannah Sumerville and John Davison.
You said that Hannah and John immegrated to Canada in 1882and the 1901 Canadian Census shows that Mary Jane and Alexander Davison also immegrated to Canada in 1882.
I wonder if both couples left together? Or is this just some wild coincedence?
Mary Jane and Alexander married in early May. Do you know when Hannah and John emigrated from Ireland? I hope to go to ottawa to look through passenger lists in the hopes that I might find Mary and Alexander. After reading your post I was thinking that I might start with the same time period as when Hannah and John arrived.
I know that it may sound a bit far fetched but I have a six month period to cover if I want to find my couple and any little bit that might help me is much appreciated.
Thanks
Pdavison
T
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Back to Henry of Ballyhannon
Seagoe Cemetery first is hard to read, I think this is correct
Erected by Simon Somerville
Ballyhanon? in affectionate remembrance of his mother Eleanor Somerville who departed this life May 185(8?) aged 42 years
Also his father Henry Somerville who departed this life 19th Nov 1872 aged 66 years
Also his daughter Miriam Somerville who departed this life 27th July 18(7?)8 aged 16 years
Also his wife Mary Jane Somerville who departed this life 4th of March 1811 (probably means 1911 and the 11 is unclear) aged 60 years
Also the above named Simon Somerville who died 20th Nov 1926 aged 77 years
Next to it is
In loving memory of George Somerville of Ballydougan
died 19th July 1916
His wife Rachel died 10th Aug 1945
Their daughters Annie and Etna
Also their sons Howard and Norman
of interest is this which was farther away
In Loving Memory of Dorothy Caroline Born Melbourne Dec 8th, 1906
Departed this life Nov 9, 1961
Also E. Vivian Somerville
born Manchester Aug 8th, 1906 Died Oct 17, 1981
(grandchildren are mentioned)
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Hi Everyone, ( Hi Kat - Hope you had a Good Christmas :-))
The Mary Jane Fitzsimmons mentioned is a sister of my Great Great Grandmother Catherine Fitzsimmons. Mary Jane's parents were Robert Fitzsimmons and Mary Erwin/Irwin. They hailed from Moyraverty Townland. Mary Jane Fitzsimmons was my 2nd great grand aunt.
Regards,
Aljepeka
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Hi Pdavison
sorry in taking so long in getting back to you.
I don't know if I can be of much help to you but this is what I have.
Hannah Sumerville married John Davison on the 16/05/1882 in the parish church of Segoe
John's father was Alexander Davison, Hannah's father was Pierce Somerville
witness's were Joseph Henry Davison and Margaret McKinney
Hannah and John went to Canada sometime in 1882 or 1883 as their first child Wellington Davison was b on the 31/05/1883 at Northwood Ontario Canada another 3 children were born in York County Ontario I am not sure where that is in relation to Northwood.
John and Hannah went to Cleveland Ohio in about 1895 as their youngest child was born there in 1896, John died 1940 and Hannah died in 1939 both in Cleveland
sorry I can't be of more help.
Dav
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Hi Kat C
Where an earth did you get hold of the Seagoe Cemetery records? what a find
I never that I would be able to find out when Eleanor Somerville died
Back to Henry of Ballyhannon
Seagoe Cemetery first is hard to read, I think this is correct
Erected by Simon Somerville
Ballyhanon? in affectionate remembrance of his mother Eleanor Somerville who departed this life May 185(8?) I think that would be May 1853 as Henry married Caroline Brown in 1854
ErrorSPAM
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][/color]aged 42 years
Also his father Henry Somerville who departed this life 19th Nov 1872 aged 66 years
Also his daughter Miriam Somerville who departed this life 27th July 18(7?)8 that would be 1898 as Mirriam was born in 1882 aged 16 years
Also his wife Mary Jane Somerville who departed this life 4th of March 1811 (probably means 1911 and the 11 is unclear) I think it would be 1911 also aged 60 years
Also the above named Simon Somerville who died 20th Nov 1926 aged 77 years
Next to it is
In loving memory of George Somerville of Ballydougan
died 19th July 1916
His wife Rachel died 10th Aug 1945
Their daughters Annie and Etna
Also their sons Howard and Norman
of interest is this which was farther away
In Loving Memory of Dorothy Caroline Born Melbourne Dec 8th, 1906
Departed this life Nov 9, 1961
Also E. Vivian Somerville this would be Edmund Vivian Somerville he was the second son of William Somerville and Mary Sleator, William and Mary went to Liverpool about 1897 then to Manchester about 1900 Mary died there in 1918 and William died there in 1951William was Simon Somerville's half brother
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][/color]
born Manchester Aug 8th, 1906 Died Oct 17, 1981
(grandchildren are mentioned)
I found a Pierce Somerville dying at Leeds in 1862 aged about 57 I think he is the father of Sloan and Youngson, I found Pierce in the 1861 census he gave his occupation as a Glass Merchant, also found him in the 1851 census giving his occupation as a bottle merchant he was living in Leeds in 1851 and 1861 as lodger.
Dav
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Hi
I have a copy of George Somerville's death cert who died 4th August 1893
if anyone would like a copy please let me know.
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Hi Dav
I have inherited four typed pages of 'approximate' Somerville Geneaology (dated 1937) in regards to Pierce, Jacques & George Somerville, so I hope this thread is still operating! :
Quote: "The three brothers, Pierce, Jacques and George came from Warwickshire to buy horses from Ireland for the English Army, and remained to settle in Ireland.
The surname at the time was pronounced Somerelle though the spelling not known. The same pronunciation was retained off and on for some time afterwards and is occassionally heard. They were French Hugenot stock, as were many of the progenitors of the Northern Irish where they were largely responsible for the development of the linen industry."
There is further information about Pierce & George's family lines. I descend from Pierce>Henry> ?Edmund's line (I think).
I am a New Zealander and all of the place names mentioned in your other posts are places where I have visited relatives on my mother's side (Barnetts, Somervilles, etc) in my childhood and I attended a Somerville reunion at the family farm ?Okoroire about 25 years ago.
My nana Noreen Wynn Somerville (of Okoroire, Somerville Rd?) married a MEDLAND. The last I heard there were Somerville descendents running an orchid/cut flower business from the family farm. There are also still Somervilles on a farm at Maramarua (?my 2nd cousins). I also remember mention of Canada in the family history. The name Clive rings a bell, but there is also a 'Cliff' in my memory so I'll have to research the further.
Edmund Somerville's wife Mary Somerville (nee Simpson) was known in the family as Minnie as far as I know. Search for 'Metone Girls Grammar School' for history of her as one of the founding pupils at "Cobbalana".
(Pierce's son) "Edmund Somerville married Minnie Simpson at Metone, Melbourne Australia, April 3rd 1906 @ 'the Presbyterian Church". Bridesmaids were sisters Effie, Ethel & Daisy Simpson.
(This is extracted from a separate 1906 Metone news article I have a copy of).
This is Day 1 of research for me.
Is it appropriate to scan the pages and post them on this site or are they best typed up as a message post so that names are searchable for others? I've extracted the following detail from the text so far:
Pierce Somerville is recorded as having ten children:
Henry, George, Pierce, John(never married), Joseph(died young), Anne, Jane, Betty, Mollie & Charlotte.
Pierce's son Henry Somerville had 18 children via two marriages, 11 children survived:
Pierce's First family : John, Joseph, James, David, Simon, Hannah (died about 16), Ellen and Mary (died in infancy), and Sadie
Pierce's Second family(with ... BROWN?): Annie, Edmund, Elizabeth (died 3 weeks old), Ralph (died of whooping cough in infancy), Hannah, Henry (died in childhood), William & Mary.
Pierce's second son George lived in Ireland (? farm at Lurgan), married three times and had 15 children, nine of whom grew up. (None from third wife).
George's First family: Samuel, Benjamin and two daughters Jane & unknown(?+) all of whom went to Brisbane, and Benjamin later went to Melbourne.
George's Second family: Mary, Hannah, Rachel, John & George 'grew up'.
George (Senior) children:
Jane (eldest daughter) married HARRIS a pilot in Brisbane (grand-daughter Liza Hart was in Newtonards near Belfast (02.08.37 - probably 02 August 1937)
Mary went to Brisbane, married BELL
Hannah married WILLIAMSON farmer of Rich Hill. County Armagh. (handwritten note: "one of her (?sons) distinguished himself in the war and was accorded XXX military funeral)
Rachel married a head gardener called DRYSDALE (died six weeks prior to 02.08.37)
John (?died...) ''(...in a linen factory left a son and daughter)''
George (youngest son of George) "remained in County Down on his father's farm at Lurgan and had four children". His second son died at school, and the youngest son (?Yohannsan?) survived a fire at the farm ''six months ago (1937)"
(there is more about George's grandchildren too which I can try to decipher and post as necessary?)
Am I allowed to ask where you fit in?
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Hi, I have an extract from the Marriage Registry for my great-great grandparents Joseph McAvoy, Weaver of Knocknamuckly, father Lewis McAvoy, Weaver and Jane Hopps, Weaver of Ballydugan, father William Hopps, Weaver. They married in the Parish of Knocknamuckly on 8/2/1861. The marriage was conducted by Abraham Dawson. Witnesses to their marriage were George Somerville and James England.
I'm still researching and have hit a brickwall in respect of Lewis McAvoy and have not yet been able to get back from 1861. The interesting thing is that I often wondered if the witnessess to their marriage may have been related as sometimes was the case. I have located a possible link of James England marrying an Elizabeth Ann McAvoy which I am still exploring as to whether she may have been a cousin to Joseph.
I came across your discussions here in respect of George Somerville and notice there was a marriage to Ann Hopps and of course am curious if this Ann Hopps may have been related to Jane Hopps. Would anyone have anything further on these two which might help me. Unfortunately, the marriage records don't list mothers so distinguishing my line further is difficult. Also can you explain which marriage of George Somerville does Ann Hopps fit in.
On the same page of the copy I obtained for Joseph and Jane's marriage is another marriage for William Dines and Margaret Wilson, Widow as follows:
No. 62, Married 7 Feb. 1861, William Dines, 40, Bachelor, Farmer, Ballydugan, Father William Dines, Farmer.
Margaret Wilson, 30, Widow, Weaver, Ballydugan, Father Robert Adamson, Farmer.
Marriage in the Parish Chuch, Parish of Knocknamuckley in the County of Armagh according to the Rites and Ceremonies of the United Church of England and Ireld by Licence by Abraham Dawson the Incumbant.
William Dines signed with his mark X
Margaret Wilson signed with her mark X
Witnesses were Christopher Blane and Mary Ann Adamson
(Ref. Page 493, No. 63, Film No. 0101248, Ireland Marriages 1860-1861, Church of Jesus Christ, Later Day Saints, Vol. 7 Page 483. (Film No 0101428 ordered from Fiche 0002 Locality Catalogue, Ireland, Civil Registries).
Look forward to any follow ups pleas.
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This is not an answer, but something to consider.
In Knocknamuckley are the McAvoys who go to that church. Lewis AKA Lucas b. 1813 is married to Elizabeth b 1818, probably married in 1848-1849, so you might be able to find that marriage record. This is his second marriage and he has son Joseph b 1833 by his first wife. He has John b 1853 , Jane b 1854, and Mary Ann b 1857 by his second wife. When John was baptized on March 9,1853, Lucas McEvoy was the name that probably appeared in the records, so keep an eye out for other spellings.
Living nearby are John b 1812, Thomas b 1815 , and Jane McAvoy b 1810, siblings living together. Also nearby is Bernard McAvoy b 1802 and wife Elizabeth b 1802 with children Jane b. 1830 and Elizabeth Ann b 1834. Jane was baptized at Seagoe Church of Ireland, so I would look for the early records McAvoy to be located there. However, most Bernards were Catholic, so I assume at some point the family converted. Jane is the lady who married Henry Dynes of Knocknamuckley, son of Ralph Dynes in 1865. Thomas England is a witness. Ralph is not obviously related to the Ballydougan Dynes. Elizabeth Ann married Joseph England, son of James and Eleanor England say my notes. It was a Seagoe marriage and I thought the England family was from possibly Knock.
There was a Hopps family in Bleary, but no William in 1857. Possibly he is William married to Mary Haddock in Levagry which was probably misspelled. They had dau Hannah in 1828 baptized at Seagoe.
Thanks for the Adamson/Wilson and Dynes marriage. They are my relatives. You will find links to McCormicks, England, Somerville, and Cave, but the links may not mean much.
The above dates are from the 1857 census and are not necessarily correct.
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Oddly, there was a Bernard McAvoy marrying Mary Ann (Compton) Fletcher, a widow in 1852. He was born 1802, but none of the wife's information matches the wife Elizabeth in 1857. She was a widow and if this is the same Bernard, he would have been one also, The father of this Bernard was Richard.
There was a Bernard in Shankill in 1824 paying taxes, and it may be a common family name as the other people on the rental are Bernard and George McAvoy and a Murphy.
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The Bernard McAvoy who married Mary Ann Fletcher was married in a Catholic church and appears in Lurgan in Griffiths while the Church of Ireland Bernard McAvoy is in Knocknamuckley.
Valentine Dynes b. 1781 had sons Ralph who lived in Clanrole, Oliver, and Valentine. Henry Dynes, who married Jane McAvoy, is the son of this Ralph. Youngston Somerville married this Ralph's daughter Elizabeth Dynes. Yougnston and George Somerville who married Ann Hopps were brothers. George Somerville had son John who married Mary Dynes. She was the daughter of William Dynes and Margaret (Adamson ) Wilson, the couple in the second marriage on the marriage page. Small world.
You have said William Hopps was from Ballydougan, but I also read Ballyhannon and Ballygargan by people who were quickly transcribing. Are you sure you have the correct location?
Lewis/Lucans McAvoy had son William on Aug 4, 1858. I would expect him to have son James born about this time, but I can't find any record of James. James (as McEvoy) married a second wife Matilda in 1898. You have been researching a long time. Do you know who this Knocknamuckley James is?
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Hi, Thank you so much for your replies, much food for thought. I made a mistake in transcribing the marriage extract for Joseph McAvoy and Jane Hopps in that the England witness was Joseph England (not James). I recently had contact with someone researching this line and they sent me their marriage being:
Page 91, 1857 - Marriage solemised at the Parish Church in the Parish of Seagoe in the County Armagh.
No. 182
Date of Marriage: 13 March 1857
Parish/District: Seagoe CI
County: Armagh
Husband: Joseph England, Knock Parish of Seagoe, Weaver, Age 25, Bachelor, Bachelor (Previously unmarried) Father James England Farmer. Mother not recorded.
Wife: Elizabeth Ann McAvoy, Knocknamuckly Civil Parish, Weaver, Age 22, Spinster (Previously unmarried), Father Bernard McAvoy, Weaver, Mother unrecorded.
Witnesses: Francis Hollywood and George Somerville.
Married in the Parish Church by C. Wolseley Curate, Parish of Knocknamuckly.
My McAvoys (also recorded at times as M'Avoy, McEvoy) to the best of my knowledge and information from late great-aunts were originally all Church of Ireland, later some Methodists and Presbyterians, even Salvation Army with one of Joseph and Jane's children.
I am sure somewhere amongst all this is some sort of relationship now its just establishing it, vbg. I certainly will check out the Lewis/Lucas side. I have found at Family Search a possible death for a Lewis McAvoy born about 1812, died 1882 which may fit but as yet not able to order the film to check it out.
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Hi Kat, Sorry I don't have anything regarding James McEvoy. There was a son James born 11 June 1878 to Joseph McAvoy and Jane Hopps but he died as a baby or young child, so too another child Eliza Ann born 27 December 1867. Ten other children survived to adulthood and nine married.
As to location of William Hopps I took it from the marriage of Jane in that they had her from Ballydugan (spelt that way on the extract). I've found references to a William Hopps at Lisnamintry (Griffiths Valuation 1864), 1918 Lurgan Directory Legahorry (doubt mine). I'm not able to tell if he is mine. My late great-grandfather William John McAvoy (born 9/6/1862, Knocknamuckly) went back for a visit to his siblings in 1926 and a photo I have shows a William (Bill) Hopps, Mary Hopps and niece Stella Leckie taken on a road in front of a cottage near Lurgan. Sadly he didn't mark what the relationship was but great-aunts said they were cousins.
Going to try to attach the marriage certificate and photo if I can.
Moderator Note: image removed- you may only post a small portion of a certificate for deciphering purposes. Please read Rootschat copyright policy (link at bottom of page)
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he William Hopps in Lisnamintry had land there, but not a home says Griffiths. The Wm Hopps in Crossnamahilly was a farmer born about 1817, married Eliza b 1827 and has children William John b 1849 and Eliza Ann b 1855. I know nothing about the Clanrolla Wm Hopps.
There is a fair chance that James McAvcy in Knocknamuckley was previously married to Elizabeth Chambers. Possibly sons Joseph and James have a middle name of Henry. I can't find the marriage. James and Joseph went to Amsterdam, NY and Joseph died in Springfield, MA after following his Symington in-laws to there. 2nd wife Matilda's son William John married Charlotte Jane and was buried at Knocknamuckley in 1973.
Can you find anything on the Chambers marriage?
Can you access the maps on askaboutireland to see how the McEvoy land is grouped on a map in 1864? That might point to land divided among sons.
Is Stella Leckie the daughter of William Andrew and Ann (Hopps) Leckie in the 1911 census? She would be born about 1906 and about 20 in the photograph. The most logical Annie is the daughter of Thomas and Margaret (marsden) Hopps on Victoria St, not Hill St. , in 1901. Thomas was born about 1845 and William should be a brother, if niece is a term correctly applied. The Hopps/Marsden marriage record would give William's father if this logic is correct. Please see if you agree? I think we need help with marriages.
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Hi Kat, Interestingly a son of Joseph and Janes, Thomas Henry McAvoy and his wife Minnie Brown (dau. of John Brown and Mary Graham) migrated to USA in 1903 going to Minnie's sister Edith who married Edward Swain settling at 208 South Street, Holyoke, Hampden County, Massachusetts. Tom and Minnie lived at 210 South Street. Wonder if Tom also had McAvoy rellies there too. A couple of years ago I was in touch with someon searching James McAvoy and Elizabeth Chambers, didn't know more marriages with James. I've just emailed her and hopefully her address is same and can pursue this further. Meanwhile I'll go over all the messages and try to digress it all. Many, Many thanks.
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Ireland, Civil Registration Marriages Index, 1845-1958:
Elizabeth Chambers married James McEvoy in 1871, Registration District Banbridge, Volume 11, Page 269, FHL Film No. 101251.
Children (Ireland, Births and Baptisms, 1620-1911):
1. William John McAvoy, born 2/4/1877, Knocknamuckley, Armagh, Ireland, Father James McAvoy, Mother Elizabeth McAvoy Chambers, FHL Film No. 255978.
2. James Henry McAvoy, Born 25/5/1879, Knocknamuckley, Armagh, Ireland, Father James McAvoy, Mother Elizabeth Chambers, FHL Film No. 256032.
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The computers at the census bldg were finally working and I saw your tree. The Ballydougan location for Jane Hopps is extremely clear. All the Wm Hopps entries in Griffith seem to be references land owned by one man.
James McAvoy arrived in 1905 to go to brother Joseph saying then that he was born 1881 and later 1883.. He promptly calls himself Harry and rents a home and heads back to Ireland to get married to Elizabeth Bell who is probably from Ballyhannon. He returns and becomes James H. McAvoy and she arrives in 1906. However, she goes back to Ireland about 1910 probably before her first baby Lucy is born. He lived with some ex-Knocknamuckley folk at that time. The ellis island entry of her return confused me and I will get to this. They go on to have Jessie, Joseph H., Eunice. Elizabeth, and Mabel and move to a nearby town. They return to visit Ireland in 1951. James is not in the 1901 census, but by a long stretch, may be in Stevenson, Ayrshire in 1901.
Joseph McAvoy claims to be born July 28, 1884 and also in 1887. A Ballydougan/Portadown man lives with him in 1910 and he has married a Cloncore Elizabeth Symington. He moved to the Bronx by 1930 and lists a middle initial of J, not H. His gravestone says "C' which could be a penmanship error or could indicate a mother's maiden name. He moved to Springfield, MA after having children Ida, Lawrence J. and Howard. The Joseph H. that appears in the Amsterdam newspapers may be the son of his brother, aiding in my confusion. Joseph's emigration is not obvious on ellisisland unless he stayed a bit in Glasgow. The Elizabeth arriving to Jos H. McAvoy, husband, was actually going to Jas. H. McAvoy, my mistake. In 1942, Joseph claimed he was born in Belfast, but claims are often distorted by then. There was a tree available at ancestry at one point, but seems no longer available. I have asked the Symington researcher whether she knows more, but the message isn't smoothly reaching her.
There was extremely high level of recruitment of Knocknamuckley families by an Amsterdam carpet mill especially in 1903. Most of the Irish arriving at that time were from there. Portadown people were flowing to So. Manchester, Connecticut at the same time. Things were very localized. Families went to friends, associated with those friends in the new home, and then moved on to other locations as opportunities arrived. Springfield and nearby Holyoke,MA and Paterson, NY were typical.
I am very interested in the Lewis as the middle name of one of Matilda and James's children. I really think there is a connection, and Thomas renting to Lucas/Lewis is typical of a father/ son rental which this is not. Did you see that Bernard's home was similar but opposite? Also that it runs at an angle to the street which reduced taxes early on. Possibly that means the houses were there for some time and this is a family that moved in before the tax structure changed in ??? year. (Windows facing the street were taxed, so oldest houses are often at an angle to the street.)
I need to order tapes and will try for the marriage record from Banbridge.
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July 13, 1854 Lucas and Elizabeth baptized James McEvoy at Knocknamuckley. So this agrees reasonably with James married to Matilda in the 1901 census. Then came William in 1858.
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I am afraid I haven't had any of this information so trying to sort it out. My Joseph McAvoy, son of Lewis was born in approximately 1835. He did not migrate and died about 1905. The closest that might match from LDS Family Search, Ireland, Civil Registration Indexes, 1845-1958 is Joseph M'Avoy, Registered Lurgan, Reg. Quarter & Year Jan-Mar 1905, Estimated Birty 1839, Age 66, Film 101602, Volume 1, Page No. 590, Dig. Folder No. 4201706, Image No. 00515.
Jane Hopps/McAvoy is Jane M'Avoy, Reg. Lurgan, Oct-Dec 1880, Estd. Birth Year 1839, Aged 41, Film No. 101590, Vol. 1, Page 494, Dig. Folder No. 4200672, Image No. 00287.
I need to order these films from LDS centre which at present I haven't been able to get to one to do so, hopefully soon.
I really appreciate your efforts.
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Kingskerswell provided a ton of help:
11 Jan 1877 James McEvoy married Elizabeth Chambers in Seagoe Church of Ireland, Lurgan.
26 Nov 1898 James McEvoy married Matilda Irwin in Seagoe Church of Ireland, Lurgan
Matilda Irwin b Aug 30, 1869 is the daughter of Pierce Irwin and Eliza Somerville and sister of Jane Irwin b Mar 21, 1872, Thomas Feb 16, 1865, and William Robert b 13 Aug 1867 . Eliza's father is Robert and his wife is Matilda. Elizabeth Somerville was born Nov 5, 1838 and has brothers John b Oct 12,1828 and William b Sept 25, 1831. Daveyh provided most of this information. Pierce's father is Thomas Irwin. In 1857 Thomas Irwin 59 and Jane 62 are in Ballydougan and have children Mary 24, a teacher, Pierce 23, Agnes 22, William 21, and Henry 19. Pierce and Eliza were married at Seagoe 23 Apr 1864.
So there is a Somerville circle and There are some more sibling marriages and Irwin witnesses to marriages including one of Toberhuney George Hopps, son of Isaac.
There are probably too many Elizabeth Chambers to guess who are her parents without the marriage record. Possibly John and Ann Chambers of Knocknamuckley might be parents as they went to the same church and lived in the same town. She would be about 4-5 years older than he.
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Oops- A Mistake
John Somerville with Knock property's will says sister Elizabeth has dau Matilda married to a Boyce, apparently Henry Boyce of Ballydougan. The only other obvious Matilda in the area is the dau of Valentine Irwin and Elizabeth Blacker, so it sounds like that marriage certificate also needs to be looked at.
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Hi,
Can you please confirm where you discovered that James McAvoy (born 11/6/1878) died as a child? I am 90% sure that he is my great grandfather, and if I am correct he moved to Scotland in the late 1890s or early 1900's (from where I can trace him from the 1911 census).
Thanks
Gill1962
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Dav
Thankyou for the information about John Davison and Hannah Somerville. Sorry that it took so long to thank you I didn't recieve a notification from Rootschat. I have been researching Mary Jane Davison and Alexander Davison. Alexanders father's name is also Alexander. They lived in Kent county in Ontario, Canada which is the same region as the one John and Hannah moved to. York county is in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. Alexander and Mary Jane moved there as well., only they never moved on to the U.S. I realize that you're not researching John Davison but do you happen to know if John has any brother's?
Thanks again.
Phyllis
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Hi, I finally have the death certifications on my McAvoys:
1. Certified Copy of an Entry of Death from The Births and Deaths Registration (Northern Ireland) Order 1976, Article 34, No D/1905/176/1021/24/232, Book 24, No. 232.
Joseph McAvoy's Entry of Death lists that he died on 25 March 1905, Breagh, County Armagh, Northern Ireland. He was a Widower, 66 years, Farmer, dying of Bronchitis, 7 days Certified, Informant George McAvoy, son, Present at death, Breagh, registered on 27 March 1905 by Jash Rowlett, Registrar.
2. Certified Copy of an Entry of Death from The Births and Deaths Registration (Northern Ireland) Order 1976, Article 34, No D/1880/176/1021/10/337, Book 10, No. 337.
Jane (Hopps) McAvoy's Entry of Death lists she died on the 23rd November 1880 at Knocknamuckly, County Armagh, Northern Ireland. She was aged 41 years, Weaver's wife and died from Enteritis which she'd had for 5 days. The informant listed is her husband Joseph McAvoy, Occupier, Knockmanuckly. The Death was registered on the 11th December 1880 by W. Stewart, Registrar.
3. Certified Copy of Death Certificate from The Births and Deaths Registration (Northern Ireland) Order 1976, Article 34 No D/1882/176/1021/11/243, Book 11, No. 243.
Lewis McAvoy's Entry of Death lists that he died on 22 April 1882, Knocknamuckly, County Armagh, Northern Ireland. He was a Widower, 70 years, Weaver, cause of death Enteritis 1 week, Uncertified, no Medical allowed, Informant xthe mark of William McAvoy, Occupier Knocknamuckly, registered on 24 April 1882 by W. Stewart, Registrar.
Unfortunately. the parents, spouses and children are not listed which means I can't verify that this Lewis Mcavoy is Joseph McAvoy's father although it fits place and age periods. It appears both Joseph and Jane were born in 1839 according to their ages recorded on the Entry of Death. However, on the Marriage Register Joseph was recorded as being 26 years which would make his birth year 1835. Of course full knowlege may not have been known at those times and Informants/Clerks estimated it.
Ha anyone any other suggestions on searching other documentation available. I can't find records for birth, marriage, death between 1812-1862 so stuck again.
All the best.
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James McAvoy was born 11th June 1878 and was a brother to my grandfather George McAvoy. I have a copy of his birth certificate which was issued for the purposes of an Old Age Pension. The copy is dated (issued) 7th Sept 1948 which means he was alive at that time. His father was Joseph McAvoy (weaver) and mother Jane (nee Hops) and their address is Knocknamuckly which is in Portadown
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I sent you the information on James Wilson who married Annie Somerville. Dates match within a year and my James and Annie also lived in Belfast. They were back in Co. Armagh for the 1901 census, but I don't know where they eventually lived.
If you talk to Jim, you might ask if your Somervilles went to Christchurch as Wilsons went there.
Alexander Chambers was fairly old. Do you know if he were widowed?
James Chambers was my granny's dad. He married Mary Somerville 20 years younger. They had 10 children. He wasn't widowed just married old to a young thing. Seems strange in today's day & age but it happened.
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I sent you the information on James Wilson who married Annie Somerville. Dates match within a year and my James and Annie also lived in Belfast. They were back in Co. Armagh for the 1901 census, but I don't know where they eventually lived.
If you talk to Jim, you might ask if your Somervilles went to Christchurch as Wilsons went there.
Alexander Chambers was fairly old. Do you know if he were widowed?
Where can you find the Wilson Ballydougan family tree online?
Our road had a lot of different Wilson's living on it in 1800's. Just want to check if your tree is my family. Thanks if you can help on this.
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Hello,
Alexander Chambers was a bachelor of about 43 when he married Mary Somerville who would have been about 23.
Alexander Chambers was my granny's father. From what we know he was 42 & Mary 22.
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PSW28- The Ballydougan Wilsons have several trees on MyHeritage including mine. Most of the Wilson trees are by descendants of those who went to NZ. I think the one on Rootsweb was deleted when Ancestry took over the site. Helen Wilson who married Wm Alex Chambers was the granddau of George Wilson and Jane Reid of Ballydougan. George's father, Samuel Wilson (m. Jane Adamson,) is a brother to the ancestor of most of the NZ Ballydougan Wilsons. There are also Bleary Wilsons, but I think you are looking at the Ballydougan ones. The Facebook page for several Lurgan and Co. Armagh sites may be of interest to you despite Ballydougan being in Co Down. Lurgan was the main marketplace for the area. I don't see a PM here anymore, so I can provide an e-mail at one of the other sites if you can't find a tree.
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The names you have said are my dad's line.
I'm completely new to this so don't know all the sites or where I need to go.
I'm taking it I look for either a roots.com Facebook page to try & find links?
I would really appreciate it if you could send me an email with links also incase I can't find these myself.
I feel a bit excited getting new stuff so that I can tell my dad.
Since I've took very ill myself I really get a bit of joy looking into my families past.
Thank you so much. Paul
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I don't see a PM here anymore, so I can provide an e-mail at one of the other sites if you can't find a tree.
You can still use the PM system which is still here.
Either, when logged in, just click on My Messages (in the dark brown bar at the top) and then click ‘Send a Message’.
..or, click on the clipboard looking icon under their avatar, if it glows green they are online. Then send your PM.
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Joseph McAvoy's Entry of Death lists that he died on 25 March 1905, Breagh, County Armagh, Northern Ireland. He was a Widower, 66 years, Farmer, dying of Bronchitis, 7 days Certified, Informant George McAvoy, son, Present at death, Breagh, registered on 27 March 1905 by Jash Rowlett, Registrar.
Here's the link to the death record-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1905/05606/4576312.pdf
The registrar was Jas L Rowlett.
Breagh townland in Seagoe civil parish.
https://www.townlands.ie/armagh/oneilland-east/seagoe/carrowbrack/breagh/
McAvoy in 1901 census
House 11 in Breagh (Carrowbrack, Armagh).
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Armagh/Carrowbrack/Breagh/1027673/
....and their address is Knocknamuckly which is in Portadown
Knocknamuckly townland in the civil parish of Seagoe, is on the south-east outskirts of Portadown.
https://www.townlands.ie/armagh/oneilland-east/seagoe/carrowbrack/knocknamuckly/
KG
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I have found at Family Search a possible death for a Lewis McAvoy born about 1812, died 1882 which may fit....
Lewis McAvoy, a weaver aged 70 yrs and a widower died 22 April 1882 at Knocknamuckly. The informant was a William McAvoy.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1882/06406/4839849.pdf
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......
Date of Marriage: 13 March 1857
......
Husband: Joseph England, Knock Parish of Seagoe, Weaver, Age 25, Bachelor, Bachelor (Previously unmarried) Father James England Farmer. Mother not recorded.
Wife: Elizabeth Ann McAvoy, Knocknamuckly Civil Parish, Weaver, Age 22, Spinster (Previously unmarried), Father Bernard McAvoy, Weaver, Mother unrecorded.
Witnesses: Francis Hollywood and George Somerville.
......
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1857/09534/5456356.pdf
??? First witness looks more like Thomas Hollywood.
Note - Knocknamuckly townland is in the C.P. of Seagoe (not Knocknamuckly).