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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: Ruskie on Tuesday 12 May 09 05:22 BST (UK)
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We are looking for living relatives of the following soldier, but there is also a need to combine the family tree to do DNA testing if it proves viable. Any help is most welcome.
NAME Curran, Joseph James
SN 494
RANK Private
UNIT 31 Bn
HONOUR Standard entitlements
BORN Maitland NSW
OCCUPATION Labourer
RELIGION Roman Catholic
DOE 10.07.1915 Brisbane Qld
AGE 30
STATUS KIA
DATE 20.07.1916
AGE 30
BURIED Unknown
MEMORIAL VC Corner Cemetery memorial panel 3
AWM 18
DESCRIPTION 5' 9 with brown hair
NOTES AWM Honour Roll record compiled by Historian's staff
Identity disk returned by German authorities
Letter in file from Base Records to Pensions 1924 trying to locate blood relatives as
Mrs Curran no longer contactable.
Letter in file from Mrs J Johnson Brisbane Road Bundama 1920 she received Curran's
effects. She was previously his fiance Miss M Kitching.
Death plaque to Untraceables.
NOK Kate Curran
Coonamble Dubbo NSW
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Joseph Curran's birth registration has Catherine Curran listed as his mother, but no father listed.
1887 Maitland.
Ref = 26209
Dee
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A Catherine Curran has another son in 1888, Thomas S J Curran, again no father's name, this time in Sydney.
And a Catherine A. Curran has a daughter, Laura T. Curran, in Sydney but not till 1896. Again she seems to be a single mother.
Whether this is one and the same Catherine Curran is very debatable.
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I can't see marriages or deaths for either Thomas S J Curran or Laura T Curran in NSW or in Queensland.
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Bit More
Curran at Maitland – not sure about these, although Joseph James Curran was born Maitland
NSW Electoral Roll 1930, Fed Seat Hunter, State Seat Maitland, Polling Place Maitland
Lines 1411 to 1415, listed under to show households rather than as per lines on roll
Alice Ann at Roxburgh St Lorn, West Maitland, home duties
Ignatius at Roxburgh St Lorn, West Maitland, bridge carpenter
Alma Veronica at Olive St Telarah, West Maitland, home duties
John Henry at Olive St Telarah, West Maitland, miner
James Vincent at The Avenue, Lorn, West Maitland, chemist’s assistant (not sure if that would be a retail chemist or perhaps as an assistant– say mining R & D lab)
Just Moi
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Bit More,
Fairly confident of Catherine Curran being Kate Curran NOK
NAME Curran, Joseph James NOK Kate Curran Coonamble Dubbo NSW
Catherine Curran home duties at Gilgandra on NSW Electoral Roll 1930 This is in the State seat of Dubbo, Fed seat of Gwyir, Polling place Gilgandra. (no street address, suggesting this voter had been on the roll for a considerable time, other entries for Curran at Gilgandra as under (listed as by possible households- all same surname)
Annie, Miller St, home duties
Honora, Miller St, home duties
Mary Evelyn (no street, perhaps Catherine’s sis?) home duties
Ethel May, Bundah (presume house/farm name would be typ of that era), Collie Rd, home duties
Patrick Michael Gilbert, Collie Rd, sheep owner (no name for farm, we suggest “Bundah”)
John Gratton, Eriban St, a butcher
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Hi,
In Josepj Curran records there is a note saying that the fiance thought that his mother was in Victoria working as a cook in a Hotel. I cant find her on the rolls as such, she most likely married anyway, presuming that she was a single Mum. Or she had died by the time the army were looking for her.
Can someone have a look for marriages and deaths in Victoria around this time, we may be looking for the wrong name.
Really the only thing that is going to show for sure who she was are the actual birth and death certs and none of us can afford to buy them to find the family. Though I always get tempted when I find a likely suspect.
mum mum
Just a thought, local historical societies are often good value on this sort of thing, perhaps if someone finds the society closest to where he was born or mum was living they may be able to find something in the way of newspaper articles etc.
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This is looking very hopeful - fantastic detective work. Sandra was not at all hopeful about finding any relatives of this soldier. :D
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Bit More
Really the only thing that is going to show for sure who she was are the actual birth and death certs ........ local historical societies are often good value on this sort of thing, perhaps if someone finds the society closest to where he was born or mum was living they may be able to find something in the way of newspaper articles etc.
In Dec 2007 my OH and I were in Dubbo. We visited their local FHS, and were delighted to find they had vast archives in a former classroom in the HS, near their Tourist Info Centre (from memory). We found bdm index there for far western places to Broken Hill, Ivanhoe, Louth, etc. newspaper cuttings from 19thc indexed by surname ! We were not looking for forebears from "Gil" but we suspect the holdings at Dubbo have such.
Perhaps Sandra or Tim can make contact with the Dubbo FHS and ask for a look up, not just on this Fromelles missing lad, but on any who had at any time - "western districts" of NSW connections - Western Districts - west of Blue Mountains west of (but including) Forbes, Wellington, etc. The volunteer members in that classroom when we visited were most welcoming, very helpful and knew their archive material holdings were precious.
JM
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Bit More,
Fairly confident of Catherine Curran being Kate Curran NOK
NAME Curran, Joseph James NOK Kate Curran Coonamble Dubbo NSW
Catherine Curran home duties at Gilgandra on NSW Electoral Roll 1930 This is in the State seat of Dubbo, Fed seat of Gwyir, Polling place Gilgandra. (no street address, suggesting this voter had been on the roll for a considerable time, other entries for Curran at Gilgandra as under (listed as by possible households- all same surname)
Annie, Miller St, home duties
Honora, Miller St, home duties
Mary Evelyn (no street, perhaps Catherine’s sis?) home duties
Ethel May, Bundah (presume house/farm name would be typ of that era), Collie Rd, home duties
Patrick Michael Gilbert, Collie Rd, sheep owner (no name for farm, we suggest “Bundah”)
John Gratton, Eriban St, a butcher
I've just checked this family out.
Catherine (nee' Foran) was the wife of John Gratten Curran. They married in 1915.
Honora was John's mother and Annie was his sister.
Therefore it is highly unlikely that this Catherine is the one we're seeking.
Sorry Just Moi.
Cheers,
Tim L.
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Thanks Tim,
The searching continues
JM
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Hi,
In Josepj Curran records there is a note saying that the fiance thought that his mother was in Victoria working as a cook in a Hotel. I cant find her on the rolls as such, she most likely married anyway, presuming that she was a single Mum. Or she had died by the time the army were looking for her.
Can someone have a look for marriages and deaths in Victoria around this time, we may be looking for the wrong name.
Really the only thing that is going to show for sure who she was are the actual birth and death certs and none of us can afford to buy them to find the family. Though I always get tempted when I find a likely suspect.
mum mum
Just a thought, local historical societies are often good value on this sort of thing, perhaps if someone finds the society closest to where he was born or mum was living they may be able to find something in the way of newspaper articles etc.
There are too many Catherine Currans to know which one is most likely, MM......the only one I've seen in Victoria worth a mention is a 50 year old Catherine Curran who died in 1916 at Ballarat, and her parents were unknown.
Ref = 8531
And in that particular case it could well be that the certificate wouldn't tell us much anyway. And checking the electoral rolls, it seems there were Currans in the Ballarat area, including another Catherine. :-\
Dee
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Joseph James Curran enrolled in Brisbane, next of kin given as Kate Curran.
On the 1919 Electoral Roll, there is a Kate Curran who is listed as a cook at All Hallows Convent, Ann St, Fortitude Valley, Brisbane.
Dee
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Bit More,
There is an arrival in NSW on the vessel Glamis of Kate Curran Age: 16 (abt 1865) Female
Arrived 10 Jan 1881. Could be her?
Just Moi
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Bit More
Kate Curran on Glamis passenger list image is online, shows others with same name on same voyage.
ADD:
Ellen, Grace and Kate, on an emigration scheme, Single women, AND the matron in charge was Ellen Chicken,. The Curran girls all listed together, all from Donegal, all domestics
Ellen aged 21 (abt 1860)
Grace aged 20 (abt 1861) I cannot decipher info on the far right of that image
Kate aged 16 (1865)
second ADD still cannot find UK port of departure, perhaps IRELAND, still looking
JM
FURTHER EDIT,
Please see later postings on this thread for information about that voyage, and other passengers with CURRAN surname on that voyage.
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There is also a Catherine Curran born in Maitland, NSW in 1869 to a Michael Curran and Anne.
Ref = 13249
They also had a son John Curran in Maitland in 1865. Ref = 10587
And a son Michael born in Maitland in 1867. Mother's name spelt Ann. Ref = 11722
Michael appears to have died in West Maitland in 1944.
Ref = 21595
And a Catherine Curran, parents Michael and Ann, died in 1915 in Brewarrina. Ref = 7456 That's a long way from Maitland!!!!
This really is needle in haystack searching. ;D ;D ;D
Dee
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Agree,
Isn't Ignatius a variation for Joseph - and the Fromelles missing lad - born Maitland,
I thought Curran would be unusual and was expecting to see typos with Curren or Correen etc. but not this many as Curran. I thought the one at Gilgandra would be Kate, but ... seems not to be.
I hope your 1919 Roll find will be the one.
Joseph James Curran enrolled in Brisbane, next of kin given as Kate Curran.
On the 1919 Electoral Roll, there is a Kate Curran who is listed as a cook at All Hallows Convent, Ann St, Fortitude Valley, Brisbane.
IF NOT, please think about this one:
Curran at Maitland – not sure about these, although Joseph James Curran was born Maitland
NSW Electoral Roll 1930, Fed Seat Hunter, State Seat Maitland, Polling Place Maitland
Lines 1411 to 1415, listed under to show households rather than as per lines on roll
Alice Ann at Roxburgh St Lorn, West Maitland, home duties
Ignatius at Roxburgh St Lorn, West Maitland, bridge carpenter
Alma Veronica at Olive St Telarah, West Maitland, home duties
John Henry at Olive St Telarah, West Maitland, miner
James Vincent at The Avenue, Lorn, West Maitland, chemist’s assistant (not sure if that would be a retail chemist or perhaps as an assistant– say mining R & D lab)
JM
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Hi,
If Cath Curran was a Coonamble when Joseph enlisted it could also be possible that she was the Cath Curran that died at Brewarrina in 1915. I had a quick Google this afternoon and its not that far away.
If it was my family I would be buying the birth certificate for Joseph Curran 1887, father unknown because it may show the mother's place of birth, age, and any other children which would then give us something to go on. Then you could try to find more about her.
She must have been at least 45 or so you would think when Joseph enlisted, so maybe it was her that died at Brewarrina.
mum mum
Just looking at my notes, the cath Curran that died at Brewarrina was the daughter or Michael and Ann Curran.
So where the hell is Maitland anyway? I dont think that we should rule out the Maitland born Cath, as being the one who died in Brewarinna, after all, she was living at Coonamble.
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Thanks for that, MM.....I'm not all that familiar with NSW and just have to keep referring to Google maps! ;D ;D
Dee
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Bit of "local" info, from my own family history,
Maitland is in Hunter (Newcastle) region of NSW, and in the late 19th, early 20th C was where people in Western Districts of NSW often came from and went to (thus avoiding the "big smoke" of Sydney. Easy access there through Blue Mtns, straight west, along what is now referred to as the Golden Highway. Umm, was a droving route from Dubbo to the Sales Yards at Cessnock etc pre WW1.
JM
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Bit More
If Cath Curran was a Coonamble when Joseph enlisted it could also be possible that she was the Cath Curran that died at Brewarrina in 1915......She must have been at least 45 or so you would think when Joseph enlisted, so maybe it was her that died at Brewarrina. ...Just looking at my notes, the cath Curran that died at Brewarrina was the daughter or Michael and Ann Curran.
Umm, perhaps the Dubbo FHS will have info on that death, the resources I saw in that class-room, the care they took, and they were covering all of the Western Districts, ie west of the Great Dividing range, not just west of Sydney, west of the range, - remember seeing info from Wagga there, and from Brewarrina, and from Tamworth.
Have we tried the Maitland newspapers online at nla.gov.au - will try these now and edit the post later this evening.
EDIT 1, have found a reference to a Mrs Curran as a witness in a court case..... John Henry Nolan was charged with ..... on the 18th of Aug. last, at a hut about five miles from Inverell. (western districts again)......Mrs. Curran, with whom Nolan lived, deposed that he was at home ........ the year? 1880
EDIT 2 Mrs Curran was arrested as accessory after the fact..... more edits to come.
EDIT 3 Have found a James Curran (is this is father, perhaps Kate was not the one as informant on birth rego, perhaps not literate), but there's a James Curran mentioned in the Brewarrina Stock report in the Maitland papers, 1882, he a drover. He was droving 400 store cattle from Bando in Queensland to the Mole. The cattle were the property of the Gardiners. Thursday 12 October 1882 The Maitland Mercury, and Hunter River General Advertiser
JM
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Bit More
Attaching two jpeg files from abt 1900 showing electoral boundaries for one of the western districts including Dubbo and the electoral boundary to the east of that one, the Hunter.
Searching through 1903 rolls for Kate Curran, as 1903 included Females for first time. We are searching polling place to polling place as no keyword search available on the sub that gives us access. Will edit with positive progress reports later this evening.
JM
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Bit More
1903 Roll, CURRAN at Musclebrook (Mussellbrook) in the Hunter.
Bridget Theresa, domestic duties
Clara, same occ
Emma Jane, same
Hannah Doohan, same
James Francis Joseph, tailor
John, labourer
Patrick, contractor
Thomas Augustus, labourer
William Martin, labourer
WILL ADD EDITS TO THIS POST FROM THE 1903 ROLL SEARCHING on line using ummm ihr thingy. JM
First edit
Surname Curran
1903 Hunter Electorate, West Maitland polling place
Ellen, "Telarah", domestic duties
James, Plaistow St, Stone Mason
Lizzie, Hunter St, domestic duties
Second edit
Surname Curran
1903 Newcastle Electorate, Hamilton polling place
Ellen, Bridge Street East, domestic duties
Ellen, junior, Bridge Street East, domestic duties
Patrick, Woodville, miner
Third edit
Surname Curran
1903 Newcastle Electorate, Newcastle City polling place
Catherine, 3 Morgan St, domestic duties IS THIS KATE (Maitland near Newcastle)
Henry, Morgan St, Hotel Keeper (no street number, can anyone please CHECK hotel licence of London Hotel perhaps for genie info
Mabel, Morgan St, domestic duties
William, London Hotel, Morgan St, labourer
Fourth edit
Surname Curran
1903 Newcastle Electorate, New Lambton polling place
Mary, Carrington Pde, domestic duties
Richard, Carrington Pde, miner
Fifth edit
Surname Curran
1903 Newcastle Electorate, Stockton polling place
Bridget Agnes, Newcastle Street, domestic duties
Sixth edit
Surname Curran
1903 Newcastle Electorate, Wallsend Polling place
Denies (yes, as per roll), Brookstown, miner
Elizabeth, Johns Street Brookstown, domestic duties
and same electorate, Waratah polling place
Mary Francis, High Street, domestic duties
Walter Robert, High Street, independent means
and same electorate, West Wallsend polling place
Elizabeth, West Wallsend, domestic duties, ALSO NOTICED
CurrEn, James, West Wallsend, coal-miner
Further 1903 details will be on later posts JM
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Bit More,
Again, I will edit progressively - JM
1903 NSW Electorate of Robertson, DUBBO polling place
Surname Curran
Henry, at Burrabadeen, a farmer
Henry, at Burrabadeen, a farmer (yes, two entries, suggesting TWO males)
Mary Jane, at Burrabadeen, domestic duties
First edit
Same Roll, Same Electorate, Gulgong polling place
Surname Curran
Edward, at Beryl, a miner
Ellen, at Gulgong, domestic duties
Hugh at Gulgong, a van driver
James, Gulgong, cordial manufacturer
John Francis, Gulgong, cordial manufacturer
Patrick Joseph, Gulgong, cordial manufacturer
Second Edit
Same Roll & Electorate, Merrendee Polling place
Surname Curran
Elizabeth, at Melrose, domestic duties
Third Edit
Same Roll & Electorate, Mitchell's Creek Polling Place
James Curran at Bodangora, a herdsman
Fourth Edit
Same Roll & Electorate, Cooyal Polling Place
Surname Curran
Bridget Mary, domestic duties
Catherine, domestic duties IS THIS KATE
Catherine May, domestic duties KATE perhaps
Ellen, domestic duties
John Patrick, farmer
Margaret, domestic duties
Mary Agnes, domestic duties
Patrick John, labourer
Thomas, farmer
William, farmer
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Bit More, Still on 1903 NSW Electoral Roll, and the various Electorates in the Western Districts.
Electorate of Gwdyir
Polling Place, Coonabarrabran
Surname Curran
Christenna, domestic duties
James, post master
Will continue to edit as progressively find others surnamed CURRAN on the 1903 NSW roll
First Edit
Polling Place Mungindi,
Michael John, at Mungindi, a tailor
Samuel Valentine, at Mungindi, a labourer
Second Edit
Polling Place, Warialdra
Michael John, Hope St, Warialdra, a tailor
Polling Place, Wee Waa
Frank, at Pran Creek, a labourer
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Bit More,
re Arrival of the Glamis 1881
Bit More,
There is an arrival in NSW on the vessel Glamis of Kate Curran Age: 16 (abt 1865) Female
Arrived 10 Jan 1881. Could be her?
Just Moi
Have found that the Glamis (of Dundee, capt John Rollo, -1150 tons) departed London via Plymouth, and arrived Sydney 11 January 1881, and among the MALE passengers was JAMES CURRAN, but have yet to find his age mentioned. Could this James Curran be sibling or parent to Kate or the other girls?
EDIT TO ADD
The passenger list is on Reels 2141, 2492 at the NSW State Archives, not sighted the reels but the online index for those reels shows on this voyage
CURRAN Frank 12
CURRAN Hugh 16
CURRAN Kate 16
CURRAN Grace 20
CURRAN James 20
CURRAN Ellen 21
OH of JM
JM
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1913 Electoral Roll sighting for Joseph James CURRAN in Brisbane, Queensland
The image is distorted as the roll seems to be tightly bound, but
Seat of Oxley, polling place of Brisbane South.
Line 510. This is an alphabetical list by surname, the distorted letter MUST be the First letter "C"
I can read only last four letters of surname, which seems to be six letters long.... This can only be CURRAN, and I read . . rran, Joseph James, Melbourne Hotel, S.B.. (not sure what S.B.. means), barman.
Still searching.
JM
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Bit More,
From NSW BDM online and from NSW State Archives Online
28349/1941 Catherine Curran, registered at Waverley, possible name of father Murphy (not sure if first or surname). This was most likely Catherine Curran whose probate as per online index shows date of death as 30/10/1941 and probate granted 09/01/1941
14014/1943 James Joseph Curran, registered at Wollongong, showing father as James and mother as Ellen. This was most likely James Joseph Curran whose probate as per online index shows date of death as 06/04/1943 and probate granted 11/06/1943.
There is nothing online to indicate that either of these two people even know each other, or were connected to the Lad who fell at Fromelles.
Just Moi.
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1913 Electoral Roll sighting for Joseph James CURRAN in Brisbane, Queensland
The image is distorted as the roll seems to be tightly bound, but
Seat of Oxley, polling place of Brisbane South.
Line 510. This is an alphabetical list by surname, the distorted letter MUST be the First letter "C"
I can read only last four letters of surname, which seems to be six letters long.... This can only be CURRAN, and I read . . rran, Joseph James, Melbourne Hotel, S.B.. (not sure what S.B.. means), barman.
Still searching.
JM
S.B. - I suspect it stands for 'South Brisbane'. :)
Cheers,
Tim L.
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S.B. - I suspect it stands for 'South Brisbane'. :)
Cheers,
Tim L.
It does indeed. 8)
My Ggrandparents lived near the pub and I used to visit it. Just looked it up on the web and it has certainly changed!
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Just Wondering,
Is it likely that the young siblings who arrived NSW on the Glamis in 1881 would have also been the ones found on those 1903 rolls -
CURRAN Frank 12 on 1881 arrival ie born abt 1869
CURRAN Hugh 16 on 1881 arrival ie born abt 1865
CURRAN Kate 16 on 1881 arrival ie born abt 1865 WAS SHE TWIN TO HUGH ?
CURRAN Grace 20 on 1881 arrival ie born abt 1861
CURRAN James 20 on 1881 arrival ie born abt 1861 WAS HE TWIN TO GRACE
CURRAN Ellen 21 on 1881 arrival ie born abt 1860
And, was Frank Curran on 1903 roll at Wee Waa heading towards Queensland - Wee Waa is on route to the NSW QLD border.
Thanks for explanation re S.B. - yes, I have checked the image, and can see that the address would have over-run that line if "South Brisbane" had been typed in full, so S.B. would be very sensible abbreviation to put on the roll - 1903 polling clerks would have immediately known what it meant.
Still searching,
JM
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Bit More,
As Joseph James CURRAN enlisted in Qld, could the following Qld birth be for a female sibling or cousin perhaps ???
Unfortunately as I am NSW based, I do not have a good understanding of the Qld system . The following is online index
1887/C5742 Curran Mary, Joseph (her father) and Catherine Mullan (her mother showing nee name)
Perhaps as the Fromelles-missing lad was also Joseph and as his mum was Kate :-\
Still searching
JM
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Hmmm.....
Names all seem to make sense but the only thing that concerns me is that Mary was born in Qld the same year that Joseph was born in NSW.
I know it's possible but.........
This Curran one is doing my head in!
Cheers,
Tim L.
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Hi All,
The Joseph Curran who worked at the Melbourne Hotel was probably the one who lived at Dock Street South Brisbane NOK mother Elizabeth Curran. He returned to Austrralia 1919.
Andcarred
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Hi again,
How about this scenario as a wild guess with not much evidence to support it. ::) ::) ::)
My money would be on Kate Curran being the one born in Maitland in 1869 and who died at Brewarrina. She seems to have had a defacto relationship with John Henry Nolan (born 1872 Maitland). He was charged with murder at Inverell c 1880 but released through lack of evidence. Kate gave him an alibi at the time. I think Joseph Curran born at Maitland could be their son and he is also the Joseph Curran who was droving into Queensland. His fiance is working in Maryborough Queensland at the time of his enlistment. She says in her letter that his mother was deceased.
Joseph Curran is listed as James Joseph Curran on the ADFA WW1 project. ADFA notes that his mother had not been notified of his death as she could not be found. Was this because she had predeceased her son?? It would be very interesting to see who gave the information on her death certificate. A John Henry Nolan died in 1936 at Granville aged 83 years. Age does not fit in with above J H Nolan born in 1872.
Hope some of this wild speculation is of assistance.
Andcarred
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I must say I agree with the last post.
Catherine Curran born in Maitland daughter of Michael and Ann.
Has a son Joseph born in Maitland.
She is at Coonamble near Dubbo in 1914 when her son enlists.
Cath Curran dies at Brewarrinna in 1915.
Have a look at a map and see where these towns are, seems too close to be coincidence. [ If you can call those outback towns close]
I wonder if anyone in officialdom is willing to come up with some birth and death certificates for these people in order to track them down. Then you wouold know if there was any siblings either of Cath or of Joseph.
mum mum
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Hi everyone, especially Andcarred,
Your speculation is not wild, and I have read the on-line newspaper article of 4 Sept 1880. I doubt only the bit in your speculation about the 1872 birth for John Henry Nolan at Maitland, for that would mean he was only 7 or 8 when charged with murder. BUT that does not make your speculation wild, for the newspaper cutting gives information about John Henry Nolan, including his (and thus Mrs Curran) address at that time. - John Henry Nolan had "some disagreements" over business transactions with the man who died on about 27 August 1880. John Henry Nolan was the maintenance man on the Bundarra Road, - seems to me that would indicate he was an adult, and Mrs Curran lived with him.
So perhaps what we need to consider is simply who was John Henry Nolan who lived in 1880 on the Bundarra Road with Mrs Curran. And that same article indicates this was in the Inverell district.
Thank you Andcarred, your "wild" speculation may well result in giving a heads up to find the link that helps in the identification process for this fallen AIF volunteer.
Just An Opinion,
Just Moi.
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Thank you mum mum,
Now three of us thinking along similar lines!
JM
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Hi All,
From the 1878-79 NSW Electoral Roll, seat of Tenterfield, polling place of Vegetable Creek,
Line 2986 : James Nolan , residence at Vegetable Creek.
Same roll, but polling place Inverell
Line 800 : James Curran, residence at Inverell.
JM
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Bit More,
Found this on an index online,
Curran Kate, alias Woods, listed in 1885 NSW Police Gazette at page 154
JM
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there is more intrigue developing with every post ...
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Hi everyone, and fedelmar,
Yes, and I have so little time available as my OH and I will be offline for about ten days soon.
We are searching through various electoral rolls for both James Nolan and James Curran and will edit this post progressively. Unfortunately we are not able to follow up on the Kate Curran alias clue.
JM
edit 1
1903 NSW roll, Seat of Gwydir, polling place Bangate
Line 46, Joseph James NOLAN, a labourer (no sighting of any female named Kate or Catherine)
edit 2
1903 same but polling at Boggabilla
line 289, James Joseph NOLAN of Mobinbry, a contractor (no sighting of Kate)
edit 3
1903 same but polling at Moree
line 1123 Florence Julia Nolan of Greenbah, domestic duties
line 1124 James Joseph NOLAN of Moree, shearer
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I'd like to join JM in thanking Andcarred and Mum Mum for their excellent summaries.......it's helped me focus again on this search.
Maybe we should also be looking into the other two children born to Michael and Ann Curran in the Maitland area.....John Curran born 1865 and Michael Curran born 1867.
There's the likely death of Michael Curran registered in 1944 in NSW.
For a death for John Curran, there doesn't appear anything definite in the NSW indexes. There is a John Curran who dies in 1912 with father Michael, but the mother's name is given as Jane. :-\ (Have eliminated this one....he was only born to these parents in 1894 in Junee. But that raises another question for me....back to the map to position Junee! ;D ;D)
Dee
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Marriages for a Michael Curran in NSW…..
There’s one to a Christina MCKINLAY in Sydney in 1891
Another of a Michael H CURRAN to a Bessie PATON in Bathhurst in 1896
And a Michael W H T CURRAN married a Mildred FOLEY in Sydney in 1908.
Next one after that is 1922……and I didn't see the marriage of a Michael Curran to a Jane. :-\ There are several children born to this couple in Junee, including a John and a Jane C and a Julia A.
Dee
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Hi everyone, especially Dee,
From my own family tree, I know that in 19th C, several times "Jane" and "Ann" were 'same' names, similarly "James" and "John". It could be similar trend in this instance.
I have gone through the 1903 roll for the seat of Gwydir, online but not keyword searchable. I will edit this current post as I am reading (again not keyword searchable) onto the Sands Country Directories.
JM
edit 1
1903 Sands under NOLAN
Nolan FW Cordial Manufacturer at Germanton (unlikely)
Nolan J General Store at Wickham (maybe)
Nolan James Carpenter at Lockhart (possibly)
Nolan, Mrs, Australian Hotel, Emmaville (was this Mrs Kate Curran perhaps - a cook at hotels see AIF records)
Nolan, T, Auctioneer West Maitland (where our missing Fromelles lad was born)
Nolan T, a Baker at Islington (is this near Maitland)
Nolan William, at Coraki Hotel, Coraki (hotel mentioned again)
More to follow ON LATER POST
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All the Jack's were John and all the John's were Jack!
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I think we can count the Michael and Jane couple out....an earlier search reveals that a Michael CURRAN married a Jane MCManus in Tumut in 1874....too early to be the Michael I'm trying to track down. :'(
Bother....one of their children was a John Joseph which looked likely.
Oh well, back to the drawing board..... ::)
Dee
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Hi Everyone,
Following sightings in Sands Directories, and again I will edit this post
edit 1
1905 Sands Country Directories CURRAN - several, but these seem possibles
James, at Exchange Hotel, Ballina
John, at Bega, contractor (Bega, far south coast NSW near TUMUT)
P, (only an initial) at Victoria Hotel, Tolarno,
edit 2
1905 Sands country Dir NOLAN
James & Son, undertakers and carpenters at Lockhadt
Mrs, (no initials) Store at Maitland
edit 3
others with Nolan surname same as 1903 entries already listed
edit 4
Sands 1909 Country (21 with surname CURRAN)
CURRAN, Con., at Royal Hotel Gilgandra (NEAR DUBBO)
edit 5
Re Royal Hotel at Gil - NOT Kate !
Sands 1917
Curran, Mrs H, Royal Hotel at Gilgandra (Mrs H, - not Mrs K, unless it was lithgographic typo, and MM has previously found a death for Kate 1915 at Brewarrina,)
JM
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Hi All,
This one is a difficult search. I think the Curran/Nolan lot have been such wanderers in far flung outback towns that it is unlikely they will appear on many directories or electoral rolls as they have not stayed long enough in one place.
I looked for Brewarrina cemetery records and can't find anything. It was a very remote town in 1915 (still is!). If nobody can come up with anything else on them I am willing to pay to get a copy of her death certificate as this seems to be the only lead we have of any substance. However as she would not have given the information herself ;D ;D it is a bit of a gamble that the person who has furnished the information has given it correctly but I think we have to take the chance as I don't know of anywhere else to go with this one.
The John Henry Nolan who died in Granville aged 83 years is probably the correct one. This would make him born c 1953/4 and I can't find a birth for him (before compulsory registration anyway). Not worth getting his death certificate as there are no parents named. He was most likely in the Rydalmere Asylum. Also just because the mother lived with him at some time it does not prove that the son (Joseph James Curran) is his child.
What do others think? Does anyone have access to the Police Gazette entry?
Andcarred
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Andcarred,
I wonder if it is worth posting a specific request on the Australian board asking if anyone on there has access to the Police Gazettes. There may be someone who does not check out these threads.
Re a certificate.....it's a real gamble with this one......but if you do, I hope you'll go for the cheaper option of a transcription...... Of course, it could turn out to be wonderfully helpful. :-\
I've been checking out Michael Curran's in Electoral Rolls, but again, there is nothing that really connects.
Dee
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Hi Ancarred and Dee,
I don't have access to the Police Gazettes, just found that index by serendipity, but ......, and I agree with Dee about the lack of info or its accuracy on a death Transcript, which could take 2 or 3 weeks to obtain from transcript services or longer and more expensive if order the full certificate.
Perhaps Andcarred, you could post specific request on Aust boards for that look up.
JM
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Bit More,
On Qld BDM online, (following up on a thread for one of the other Fromelles-missing - Lads), this may be a clue too. Qld made every effort to honour AIF fallen who had enlisted in Qld. The "F" in this reference reflects that this registration indicaties the AIF death occurred outside of Qld.
1922/F2034 Curran J.J. - - ** aged 33 years
JM
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Bit More,
Just to confuse us but on QLDBDM index marriages
1884/B9114 Mullen Catherine (to) Curran Joseph
Could Mrs Kate Curran have divorced ? and if so, which state, and where to find any online index. I will try NSW State Archives on line and will edit this post.
Edit 1
1915 seems wrong decade for NSW, and following may be simply an application for maintenance, but noticed the names of one respondent was a CURRAN Joseph Michael
Edit 2
Probate listing on NSW State Archives (three forenames)
John Henry Monteith Nolan - Date of Death 23/01/1941, Granted On 21/03/1941 - this would probably match the NSW BDM 1209/1941 for registration at Chatswood, an adult son of a John Adams Nolan and Sarah Susan.
still searching
JM
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Bit More,
From the digitial images for all the AIF in WW1 - naa.gov.au
AIF volunteer in WW1, wounded Aug 1916 France, returned to Aust after the Armistice – records online at Aust Archives activity on file dated 1962 at pages 15 & 16, but no reason offered for that – probably not related to JJ Curran, but notice the names John Henry Nolan, for the volunteer and for N O K (who was resident of Sth Australia),
NOLAN Henry John Nasan : Service Number - 2203 : Place of Birth - Collingwood VIC : Place of Enlistment - Keswick SA : Next of Kin - (Father) NOLAN Henry John Nasan
Still searching
JM
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Hi again,
This would appear to be the extended Curran family who have come on the ship Montrose in 1864. Maybe three brothers have emigrated together.
CURRAN Ann 28 and family Montrose 1864 2139, 2482
CURRAN Bridget inft and family Montrose 1864 2139, 2482
CURRAN Daniel 23 and wife Montrose 1864 2139, 2482
CURRAN Manus 24 and family Montrose 1864 2139, 2482
CURRAN Margaret 23 and family Montrose 1864 2139, 2482
CURRAN Mary 25 and husband Montrose 1864 2139, 2482
CURRAN Michael 25 and family Montrose 1864 2139, 2482
CURRAN Paddy 2 and family Montrose 1864 2139, 2482
CURRAN Peggy 24 Montrose 1864 2139, 2482
CURRAN Sheely 4 and family Montrose 1864 2139, 2482
Andcarred
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Oh well found, Andcarred......
Lots of those names have been popping up in searches....... :D :D
Dee
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Well Done Andcarred, and I agree with Dee, lots of those names :D
That prompted me to find this thread as that voyage was from Meenedaddy, Bunbeg, Donegal, Ireland and arrived NSW 27 Mar 1864
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,91073.0.html
I'll see what that leads to and will update this posting
EDIT
Thousands pages of transcripts of Irish records, contributed by volunteers.... Surname Curran found on several on Donegal pages........
JM
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I've just done a search of all the Currans listed on GR for being born in NSW.....there's a researcher listing Currans for Dubbo and another researcher listing Currans for Maitland.
But Catherine's name isn't listed, nor is Joseph James, or either of the possible siblings, so don't know that it is worth trying to contact. :-\
Dee
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Bit More,
I think Manus m Margaret, as they are the parents for 1869 birth Sydney NSW Ann Curran (1805/1869)
Dee, I posted GR message for one of the other Fromelles missing, and consequently the GR member has contacted Tim and Sandra, and female descendants are being contacted, and the GR member has become a new chatter on RC.
Still searching,
JM
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JM, I've done the same with the Hungerford thread., but that was where the name of the young man was listed on someone's tree. :)
Dee
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Hi
When I sent the GR messages it was to those listing the parents of the UK born lads, some had the lads there, some did not, but it worked.
There were many Curran families listed on that Irish website, too many, and with good Irish names like Patrick and Daniel.
Still searching.
JM
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Hi,
I have just noticed that the address given for Mrs Mary Curran was not Coonamble Dubbo but something that looks like Cumambie Dubbo. I would think this is the name of a property at Dubbo. I can't vouch for the spelling as the print is very faded but it is certainly not Coonamble.
Maybe this property belonged to another branch of the Curran family as there certainly are lots of them around Dubbo.
Andcarred
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Hi Andcarred,
Ta, I will trawl through some of the 1903 polling places again to see if I can spot a likely farm name, and will edit this post with any results.
EDIT to post two snipped images (have not found a likely farm name yet)
JM
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I presume that whoever wrote out the enlistment form probably didn't have a good knowledge of Dubbo and surrounding ditricts. Whether it's Coonamble or 'coonabie" its still close to Dubbo. I actually found a couple of different spellings on different pages.
Mum mum
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Bit More,
FOUND Curran at Coonamble 1903, will edit shortly.
EDIT 1
Electoral roll, Seat of Darling, polling place Coonamble (electorate borders Dubbo's electorate)
line 323, CURRAN, Thomas, male, shearer, at Coonamble.
edit 2
NO sighting of Kate at that polling place,
BUT
1903, Seat of Darling, polling place Hermidale
line 18, CURRAN, Michael, male, labourer
Kate, a cook - "wild" speculation - a shearer's cook per WW1
EDIT 3
NOT sighted Kate, but
1903, Seat of Darling, polling place Yantabulla
Line 12, CURRAN, Thomas, male, shearer
Will try other electorates, and will make new post for any results. I searched for "K" and "C" Nolan as well as Curran also did not spot Nolan, J H either.
JM
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Hi,
I am guessing that just because we cant find someone on the electoral roll doesn't mean that they weren't there.
There were a couple of years in my history that you won't find me on the roll either, or at the address I may have been enrolled under at certain times.
Someone did send me a timeline of womens voting entitlements but it still isn't clear exactly when it became compulsory for women to vote. A lot of them would not have enrolled if they didn't have to, thinking that they didn't know enough about it to vote. There are still women today that only vote because they have to and then they do as their husband tells them.
mum mum
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Very good point mum mum.
".... Queensland was the first State to introduce compulsory voting in 1915. Compulsory voting for Federal elections was introduced in 1924 ..."
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Ok,
Just bear with me here and see what you think.......
I thought that for a single mother (Catherine Curran) to go to a small town like Coonamble, it would seem likely that she had family already living there.
A check of births at Coonamble revealed a series of children born to a woman named Rose A Curran between 1880-1900 (but no father listed). Could this possibly be Catherine's sister??? I then checked for Rose's birth and found it in 1857 to Francis and Rose Curran at Hartley NSW (a long way from Coonamble).
Finally, checking for all the children of Francis and Rose, I found seven. One of these was named Catharine Curran born Hartley NSW in 1865. (Note the spelling of Catharine
Could this be Joseph James Curran's mother. The link to Coonamble is certainly there and I wonder if Catharine had gone to stay with her sister for a while but later moved on.
Cheers,
Tim L.
P.S. And just to confuse everyone further, I just posted this as Sandra cos' I couldn't get on.
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This probably has nothing to do with anything ... but I found this ! :)
Inscription List for Coonamble Old General Cemetery
Curran James 15 Nov 1891 32y parents unknown
http://cemindex.arkangles.com/cemetery-inscriptions.php?id=21
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You've convinced me
Sandra Tim. ;D
I thought that for a single mother (Catherine Curran) to go to a small town like Coonamble, it would seem likely that she had family already living there.
... or she may have gone there for work ....
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Now that looks a distinct possibility, Tim.....this one is certainly a huge challenge..... ;D ;D
Dee
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He likes cross dressing :P
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Bit More,
Coonamble would have been very logical place for any cook wanting work on a shearing plant. Travelling Stock Routes from say Ballarat Vic, north to say Grenfell NSW, north west to say Bourke nsw, and then onwards to say Charleville Qld, to Blackall, Longreach, Winton, Charters Towers. These were where my shearing forebears travelling regularly, over and over from say about 1875 until 1920's. Coonamble right there, on those TSR's. Kate Curran - mother of this Fromelles-missing - was there, perhaps even cooked a meal or three for my grandfather, great grandfather, great uncle, and their families. TSR routes still exist. Was on the main Bourke to Winton New Year's this year.
Little Hartley, western foothills Blue Mtns NSW on way to Lithgow. This was aggistment staging point in 1860's, as well as gold rush and district court house location.
JM
JM
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Hi Liverpool Annie,
This probably has nothing to do with anything ... but I found this ! :)
Inscription List for Coonamble Old General Cemetery
Curran James 15 Nov 1891 32y parents unknown
http://cemindex.arkangles.com/cemetery-inscriptions.php?id=21
Could well be lots to do with this family.
JM
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Hi All,
Kris kindly did a lookup of the Police Gazette for Kate Curran. No saying which one this was but a check of the Darlinghurst Gaol records might now be in order. Our Kate Curran had a child in Maitland in 1887 so would have to be a short sentence.
Apprehensions 20 May 1885
Kate CURRAN alias WOODS charged with feloniously forging a check for £11 9 Shillings purporting to be signed by C G Warberton and uttering the same to Messrs Farmer and Co has been arrested by detectives Cocking and Clough Sydney Police. Committed for trial at quarter sessions.
1898
Jewelery and Watches reported stolen 27 Feb 1898
CURRAN Kate Servant - 12 Macleay St - Ladies 9 ct Gold keyless geneva hunting watch No 102349 minus glass, gold fob chain, rope pattern, slide in centre, with small gold cup[ as trinket, plain gold band bangle, snip fastening, hinge at back, guard chain missing.
Andcarred
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Ok,
Just bear with me here and see what you think.......
I thought that for a single mother (Catherine Curran) to go to a small town like Coonamble, it would seem likely that she had family already living there.
A check of births at Coonamble revealed a series of children born to a woman named Rose A Curran between 1880-1900 (but no father listed). Could this possibly be Catherine's sister??? I then checked for Rose's birth and found it in 1857 to Francis and Rose Curran at Hartley NSW (a long way from Coonamble).
Finally, checking for all the children of Francis and Rose, I found seven. One of these was named Catharine Curran born Hartley NSW in 1865. (Note the spelling of Catharine
Could this be Joseph James Curran's mother. The link to Coonamble is certainly there and I wonder if Catharine had gone to stay with her sister for a while but later moved on.
Cheers,
Tim L.
P.S. And just to confuse everyone further, I just posted this as Sandra cos' I couldn't get on.
Been following Tim's post up, and have checked out the Hartley Currans on GR. There are two tree owners with all of the Hartley Currans, including Catharine, on their trees. A third tree owner has Rose A Curran born 1857 on her tree. None of them have a Joseph Curran born Maitland listed on their tree, however this doesn't mean there is not a connection. Some people, me included, don't put all their tree on the site.
My question for Tim or Sandra is....shall I try for a contact on the off chance that this is the case with these tree owners?
Dee
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Please feel free to do so Dee. I think I found the same trees on GR and another site but noticed that there was no-one listed on any of them as descending from Catharine. I took this to mean the tree owner had no further information about Catharine but perhaps you are right and they just haven't posted it. (fingers crossed)
I have located another possible avenue of enquiry regarding the Hartley Curran's but need to establish contact with someone who invariably seems to never be home when I ring!!
Cheers,
Tim L.
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Hi Dee and Tim,
I think the Curran connection at Coonamble needs checking out but I also think that as Joseph Curran said he was born at Maitland and gave his age and that a birth at Maitland is registered to a Catherine Curran at the correct time with no father listed, there is a very strong case for Catherine Curran to be the child of Michael and Anne and the mother of Joseph and also the Catherine Curran who died at Brewarrina. There are no more illegitimate births to a Catherine Curran registered in New South Wales at the correct time apart from the one above.
The name of the place that his mother was living as given on the War Records is not Coonamble but Cumambie Dubbo which I assume is the name of a property out there. However there is nothing to say that the Curran family at Coonamble are not related in some way. There are also lots of Curran families around the Dubbo area. If Michael was the brother of the other Currans who came on the ship there would be heaps of relatives all over rural New South Wales.
Andcarred
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Thanks Andcarred,
You're point about Joseph being born in Maitland is well justified and certainly needs looking into as well.
However, I am almost certain that the address given for Catherine in his service file is meant to be Coonamble. Only on one later document was it spelt 'Cumambie' but everywhere else it has been spelt either Cunamble or Coonamble. In fact on one of the attestation forms it is written Cunamble but then had the 'u' crossed out and 'oo' written above. Although Coonamble is a little way north of Dubbo, it wasn't unusual for soldiers to define their small country town by proximity to the nearest major town. i.e. Coonamble via Dubbo.
Cheers,
Tim L.
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Thanks Tim and Andcarred,
At this stage perhaps I shall just contact the three GR conributors and ask if they have any further information on Catharine Curran, and if they know if she had any children. At least then we'll know if this avenue is worth following further. :-\
Dee :D
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I've sent messages to the two GR tree owners who have Catharine Curran and Rose A Curran on their trees. It's a long shot but you never know .......we may get information that helps to identify or dismiss this family.
Fingers crossed.....
Dee :D
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I've had a reply from one of the GR Curran tree owners, and unfortuantely he knows nothing more about Rose A Curran and Catharine Curran other than than what we already have. :'(
Dee
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Still struggling with this one but the more I go through everything here, the more that Catherine Curran born to Michael and Anne in Maitland and dying in Brewarrina seems to fit the bill best. (However I don't think she was the one living with John Henry Nolan because she was only 11 y.o at the time of his arrest for murder.)
The letter from his fiance' stating he'd mentioned to her that his mother worked in a hotel in Victoria must have been a comment he made some time prior to his enlistment and obviously Kate had come back to the Coonamble area since he said that. Why else would he put her address as Coonamble in 1915 if she was supposedly in Victoria?
The only thing that concerns me is that Joseph enlisted in July 1915 so his mother must have died in the couple of months after that.......BUT.....that might explain the service file mention of his 'special request' for his possessions to go to his fiance' Jemima Kitching (probably specified in his will). Those possessions included a notebook (diary most likely) and a photo (hopefully of him).
Jemima didn't wait terribly long after his death - she married in 1916 to James Joynson in Qld. I believe I have found that branch of the Joynson's and with a bit of luck they might still be in possession of Joseph's notebook and photo. Fingers crossed!!
Cheers,
Tim L.
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Oh I do hope so, Tim. :D :D
I haven't had any contact back from the second GR tree owner, I'm afraid.
Dee
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Well, a search for Curran's fiance's family proved quite enlightening and certainly threw up a few twists in the tale.
Jemima Kitching married James Joynson in 1916 however they never had children (he already had three daughters from a prior marriage). I located his grandaughter via one of these daughters and she informed me that James had died before Jemima and when she died she left all her possessions to a Joe Kitching. Now Joe has since died but the grandaughter knew of his stepson.
Sooooooooo........I traced the stepson and spoke with him. He confirmed that Joe had married his mother some time after his father died. He also told me that Joe never had any children of his own. Unfortunately he knew nothing of a notebook or diary that may have been passed on to Joe. BUT the most important thing he told me was that Joe was actually Jemima's son, born prior to her marriage to James Joynson and that he never really knew who his father was!!!!!!!!
A quick check of the records showed that Joseph Charles Kitching was born in Qld in 1909 to Jemima (no father listed). Could Joseph Curran be his father??
Initially I thought he may have been named Joseph after Curran but a quick look through the Kitchings of Howard/Bundamba areas of Qld quickly showed there was a large Kitching family who had come from Scotland, the head of whom was Joseph Charles Kitching (a name that seems to follow in this family). Thus it's quite feasible that Joe was named after Jemima's father, uncle etc. (I haven't been able to locate her birth yet)
Nevertheless, it's possible that Joe Kitching was Joseph Curran's son - we'll just never know for sure and unfortunately it won't help as he has passed away and left no children.
Cheers,
Tim L.
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Well, no matter what the final outcome of the search for relatives of Joseph James Curran, what twists and turns and interesting developments have been experienced.
Thans for sharing that, Tim.......a bit more to this fascinating story.......... :D :D
I know Just Moi will be fascinated to read it when she gets back on board. :D
Dee
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Great detective work Tim. Such a shame it led to a dead end, but as Dee said, fascinating nevertheless. ;D
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Hi All, especially Dee,
What a twisting tale, Dee you are spot on in recognising this tale fascinates us.
I think perhaps that we all recognise we are finding several different families with the surname Curran. Perhaps we need to know the details on the Brewarrina death - her age and her place of birth and her children's details. I am considering ordering the transcript, (not the full certificate, just the full transcript), but it usually takes a couple of weeks for that to arrive.
It could be that we are way of track in considering that death at Brewarrina, but I think it will be an elimination task that could help, and would like to read what other RChatters think. If you think a different certificate may give better genie info to help unravel the tale, please give us the heads up.
Have we searched the online index for a possible Victorian death for Kate Curran, not sure but just in case!
Would anyone know if the NSW State Archives at Kingswood have further details on their fische images for the Pioneer register please?
JM
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Hi All,
The Catherine Curran who died at Brewarrina was born in Maitland in 1869 to Michael and Anne Curran and was therefore about 46 years old when she died.
It is not certain she is the mother of the soldier who was born in Maitland but she is the most likely suspect. It will depend on how well she was known by the person who gave the details on her death certificate and if they knew of any children she had.
Andcarred
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Hi All, especially Andcarred,
I am considering ordering the transcript referenced 7456 for 1915 death at Brewarrina, - Catherine Curran, daughter of Michael and Ann. But, ummm, how do we know with certainity that she was definitely the lass born in Maitland in 1869 (13249 reference, with parents Michael and Anne) if we know that for certain, then perhaps ........ Oh....... and of course all RChatters realise the un-reliable info often given by grieving family members to the clerks preparing death certificates- if only we could find a transcript for the cemetery records for Brewarrina, or a newspaper cutting for the 1915 funeral service.
JM
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Bit More,
Perhaps we should order the following record first, and if so, how long does the process take - ? Thanks in advance. JM
Bit More,
On Qld BDM online, (following up on a thread for one of the other Fromelles-missing - Lads), this may be a clue too. Qld made every effort to honour AIF fallen who had enlisted in Qld. The "F" in this reference reflects that this registration indicaties the AIF death occurred outside of Qld.
1922/F2034 Curran J.J. - - ** aged 33 years
JM
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Hi JM,
Qld have a wait of about 6-10 weeks for certs at the moment. ::) ::) ::) They have also put up the price and have no transcription agents. I don't think this certificate will tell us much more than we already know.
The Catherine Curran who died in Brewarrina is a good chance if the Death Cert comes back with the age tallying as the parents are the same on both certificates. She would have only been about 16 or 17 when she gave birth to her illegitimate son. Also he may not have known of her death when he joined up as she was in outback NSW and he was in Queensland. Both events may have occurred at nearly the same time.
It would be interesting to see who furnished the details on the death certificate. It may only have been a hospital doctor or someone not related who knew nothing about her son. I think we need the cert even if its just to rule her out. I had already offered to get it so will share the cost of a transcript with you if you would like to order it.
I don't know if it useful or not but Brewarrina Council may have a cemetery register as there probably is no headstone. This might reveal who paid for the grave.
Andcarred
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Following on with the Brewarrina link I read somewhere that the Brewarrina Information Centre had burial records so I rang them.
Catherine Curran is most certainly buried in the cemetery there and died on 25th April, 1915 (the day of the landing at Anzac Cove!). She was buried on the 27th. The only extra info they had on the burial records was that she was catholic and 44 years old. However, they did state that her actual death certificate would probably provide more information than the burial record.
Her age, although not exact, would suggest it quite possible that she's the Catherine Curran born at Maitland.
The info centre also gave me the name of their local historian so I will try to contact her and see what we might be able to discover.
Cheers,
Tim L.
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Another thing just struck me.
Catherine Curran died at Brewarrina in April 1915 yet Joseph Curran enlisted three months later in July 1915 and named his mother as his NOK.
That suggests he either didn't know his mother had died or this Catherine isn't his mother.
I suppose he may not have known because he's away in Qld and seemingly didn't have a very close relationship with her.
Cheers,
Tim L.
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I need to get a secretary to take notes for me........
I forgot to mention that there are no other Curran's buried at Brewarrina.
Cheers,
Tim L.
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Hi Tim, JM and Others,
The information on Catherine Curran who died in Brewarrina being around the correct age proves it for me that she is the Catherine born in Maitland to Michael and Anne (as stated on both her birth and death certs) but of course that doesn't prove that she was the girl who had the illegitimate baby.
However as he is the only Curran born at that time with a mother called Catherine it would be hard to go past her as his mother. As Brewarrina was (still is??) fairly remote and he was in Queensland I think it is more than likely he didn't know she was deceased. I have lots of relies who were away droving or shearing etc and didn't find out until months later that there had been a death in the family.
Michael and Anne Curran seem to have had 3 other children but 2 died young so that leaves only one sibling for Catherine as her mother Anne died in childbirth in 1871. There may be step siblings, I haven't gone any further. The one remaining sibling is a brother John J Curran born 1865 Maitland. Unfortunately lots of J J Currans around.
Andcarred
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Hi,
Sorry I forgot another brother of Catherine. He was also called Michael and he died in Maitland in 1944.
Andcarred
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Hi All,
Tim, did you by anychance ask for the name of the funeral director conducting that service, or perhaps the contact details for the current priest for a call to ask for a check of their parish register for April 1915 - Just a thought considering the point about his enlistment date being several months after that funeral.
JM
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Actually no I didn't JM. The woman at the info centre told me that was all there was on that entry.
Didn't even give a thought to contacting the local parish priest.
I haven't got onto the local historian yet cos' there's no answer but I'll remember to ask her these things.
Cheers,
Tim L.
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Thinking outside square again,
Have we considered these two NSW births - mother's name Kate, no father listed, both in Sydney?
1887 (ref 606) Lilly G Curran,
1893 (ref 2333) Dorothy Curran.
Will edit this posting with any further info on either of those two girls - perhaps their mother, Kate Curran was the one mentioned in the Gazette ::)
EDIT
Cannot find Lilly or Dorothy as Curran anywhere in NSW, but read the next post, may have found Kate Curran in Victoria.
JM
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Re Kate Curran, in Victoria
from https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/index-search? I used "Kate" as her first name, searching for possible death in Victoria.
Found 4 possibles - 2 in 1916, 1 in 1920 and 1 in 1924. These are all after Joseph Curran enlisted. It is easy to download these right now but I would need to pay online, and it seems to be around $80 to spend on the offchance -..... Any suggestions - for alternative ways to find out before I max out the plastic please?
JM
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I feel we should chase down the Brewarrina lead first before anyone goes to any expense. I still believe it's the most obvious and likely senario which needs to be examined before anything else.
His fiance' told authorities he had once mentioned to her that his mother was in Victoria and quite possibly she may have been. BUT, Catherine had obviously returned to NSW in the time between this conversation and his enlistment because on his attestation paper he's listed her address as Coonamble. Why would he put that down if she was still in Victoria???
Therefore, I would think it unlikely that we would find her in Victoria because she'd already left.
What is interesting from the fiance's letter is that Joseph only ever mentioned his mother to her that one time. This certainly suggests a lack of closeness to his mother.
Cheers,
Tim L.
.
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Hi All, especially Tim,
OK, plastic card is back in its Non-Spend spot, and we will just continue thinking outside the square.
JM
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Just wondering if any progress has been made. JM
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Hi,
I got curious again so I got the transcription of Catherine Curran's death at Brewarrina.
Catherine Curran, death 26-4-1915, profession cook.
Father Michael Curran, mother Ann Duggan.
Place of birth Maitland NSW.
Roman Catholic.
No marriage and children llisted.
Informant was the Matron at Brewarrina Hospital.
My guess is that this is the mother of Joseph. I think we should try to track the rest of Michael and Ann's family is we are still keen.
mum mum
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Professional cook just makes it more convincing that this Catherine was the mother of Joseph. :D :D
And as the informant was the matron at the hospital, she may have had no idea that Catherine had had an illegitimate child.
Hope Tim picks up on this!
Dee
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Well Done Mum Mum,
Yes, I agree with Dee, and I hope Tim picks up on that too.
JM
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Don't fret ... I have :)
Will rattle Sherlock's cage tomorrow :)
BTW ... just in case you didn't catch this in the papers in November check out the excellent spread on Fromelles.
http://www.smh.com.au/interactive/2009/national/fromelles
http://www.theage.com.au/national/war-and-pieces-of-history-20091106-i28t.html
http://www.theage.com.au/national/the-story-of-robert-courtney-green-20091106-i28u.html
http://www.theage.com.au/national/the-story-of-leslie-leister-20091106-i28v.html
http://www.theage.com.au/national/the-story-of-john-james-gordon-20091106-i28w.html
http://www.theage.com.au/national/the-story-of-edgar-william-parham-20091106-i28x.html
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Thanks to Sandra for letting me know about the update. For some reason my emails don't let me know there's been a post on this particular thread - I must not be subscribed for some reason???
What fantastic news and great work by Mum Mum. It certainly seems that being a professional cook, this Catherine would likely be Joseph's mother as we knew that was her 'profession'. Therefore I'd say that a search for descendant's of Michael and Ann is most definately the way to proceed.
While I'm dropping in, I'd just like to let everyone know that our work has been well received by the media (as shown by Sandra) and we are continuing to make strides forward. For this we are greatly indebted to everyone here for your continuing support and wonderful assistance.
Of the 250 bodies recovered from the mass graves, we have been advised that the vast majority are Australian soldiers. We have also heard that of the 250 remains, after testing, the vast majority yielded viable DNA. Therefore, should we be able to locate appropriate descendants for DNA matching, a great possibility exists for many of these men to regain their identities. If this should happen then everyone here can feel very proud that they have played a part in helping to restore these men back to their families.
Cheers,
Tim L.
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Good news for Curran
Have found a donor for the male Y DNA, still looking for the female side back in Ireland
Marg O'Leary
Fromelles Association