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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: Mistyrose41 on Monday 11 May 09 16:06 BST (UK)
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Can anyone identify my Grandpa's regiment by his cap barge. Mistyrose
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A few possibilities.
I'm going to ask the standard question in these cases:
Could we see it a bit bigger please? A high-res scan would help immensely.
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Sorry Neil, I'm not very good at this. Is this one any better. Mistyrose
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I'm wondering whether it's London Regiment...
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Hi
It is difficult to be sure from the picture, but it looks like the "County of London Battalion's" cap badge. There are quite a few others that look very similar, a real close up of the badge would be needed to to verify it.
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If its any help on my dad's birth certificate of 1915 [he is the baby in the photo] it states his father's occupation as 'Bricklayer' - Surrey National Reserve. Grandpa went out to India just after this photo was taken. Mistyrose
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Have you tried Military Records, it would help a search if you have his first name and year/ place of birth.
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Hes a Territorial soldier who signed the Imperial Obligation to serve overseas...hes got the Imperial Service Badge on his chest.
Hopefully someone will ping the correct TF Batt.
Ady
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He is also wearing a 'On Imperial Service' badge showing that he joined a territorial unit before the end of September 1914 and had signed Army Form E624 (obligation for Imperial Service).
Ken
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His name was Arthur Frederick Foster and he was born at Weybridge, Surrey on the 28th October 1873. Mistyrose
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I think we have to be looking at 6th, 9th or 11th London Battalion
The three had virtually identical badges:
http://www.glamorganantiques.co.uk/cbimages/lr19.jpg
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I can`t find a match in Military Records, similer names, and one Federick Arthur Foster, but about 13 years youngers, maybe others can pin him down. ???
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My thanks to everyone for their input. I will try for a clearer photo, it may take me a little time as technical apparatus is not my forte. Mistyrose
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My Cousin thinks it was possibly the East Surrey Regiment. Mistyrose
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My Cousin thinks it was possibly the East Surrey Regiment. Mistyrose
'Fraid not! ;)
http://www.blitzandpeaces.co.uk/Museum/WW1%20Militaria/slides/WW1%20BADGE%20EAST%20SURREY%20REGIMENT%20CAP%20BADGE%20BI%20METAL.jpg
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Hes a Territorial soldier who signed the Imperial Obligation to serve overseas...hes got the Imperial Service Badge on his chest.
Hopefully someone will ping the correct TF Batt.
Ady
Actually mate...
I don't think it is the ISB...It's a little too small, in the wrong place, and looks suspiciously like the end of a watch chain...Note that there is no button visible, nd it appears to have been poked through the button hole! ;D
My Cousin thinks it was possibly the East Surrey Regiment. Mistyrose
Well, I'm afraid it is not the usual East Surrey Regt badge, as they had a star shaped thing, and not the Rifles Maltese Cross...
BUT...
6th bn East Surreys DID have the Maltese Cross with a large centre, such as this, and were a TF unit...
Lets go for them then!!
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Thanks Scrimnet. Do you know if they served in India? Mistyrose
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http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?act=idx
This is an excellent site concentrating on WW1.
Somewhere here is a section on badges.
You will have to join, FREE, but it`s well worth it .
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Hi All
There is a medal card for Arthur F Foster, East Surrey Regt, Pte, 2507. He was posted to France 31/8/15 and presumed dead 26/9/15.
All the best
Gobbo
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Thanks Gobbo afraid not my Grandpa as he lived to the ripe old age of nearly 90!! Mistyrose
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Hi Mistyrose
I did wonder since you had not mentioned his death. However it does mean that when poking about in the military records do not get confused by 2507, who is recorded on the CWGC site as Arthur Frederick Foster.
There are a heck of a lot of Arthur Foster medal cards with at least two in a Surrey Regt so I am afraid that that line of inquiry is not going to help - sorry.
All the best
Gobbo
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Thanks Scrimnet. Do you know if they served in India? Mistyrose
6th bn East Surreys were in India in 1918 at Chakrata... ;)
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http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?act=idx
This is an excellent site concentrating on WW1.
Somewhere here is a section on badges.
You will have to join, but it`s well worth it .
Oooh...We can normally out do them on here!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
But a useful addition to references... ;)
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Hi
There is a good account of the use of the Maltese cross badge in the East Surreys on their museum web site: see
http://www.queensroyalsurreys.org.uk/reg_badges/es/es_03.html
The text mentions The 6th Battalion continued to wear a badge of Maltese cross design, with "South Africa" on the upper arm and "1900-02" on the lower. In the centre was a circlet inscribed The East Surrey Regt./6th Battalion" surrounding an eight-pointed star bearing the arms of Guildford. Examples with voided and solid centres are recorded.
. It looks as if Frederick has one with a solid centre.
The posting to India after the 1915 photograph is a bit of a worry. According to "The Long Trail" 1/5 and 1/6 Battalions embarked for India on 29 Oct 1914. http://www.1914-1918.net/eastsurreys.htm I suppose that Frederick could have been sent as part of a reinforcement batch after the 1915 photograph but I cannot find any trace of this in the easy web sites.
All the best
Gobbo
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I'm doing a display at the museum on Sunday....
http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/main/w-events-find_event.htm?propertyID=237
The museum will be open...
I'll see what I can find out for you ;) ;D
BTW
It's badge 1723 in Kipling and King ;)
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My thanks to everyone for all the info. My father would have been about 3/4 months old in the photo [born in April 1915] so Grandpa's departure for India would have been after July/August. He was wounded in the leg while in India don't know if there would be any records of this. I will look at the Web sites that you have recommended. Yes please Scrimnet I would be most grateful. regards Mistyrose.
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Hi Scrimnet
Kipling & King looks to be a super reference but at around £60 a bit beyond the reach of a poor (mean?) Gunner. Have fun on Sunday, I guess at Clandon Park.
All the best
Gobbo
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Hi Gobbo, Are you an Artillery man? Mistyrose
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Just for two years NS. Nothing more heroic than garrison on the Welsh border and armed guard at the armoury after the IRA attacked the Apprentices Regt armoury.
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My other half was Artillery too, like you NS [Rhyl and Germany 1958/9]. Mistyrose
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Hi Scrimnet
Kipling & King looks to be a super reference but at around £60 a bit beyond the reach of a poor (mean?) Gunner. Have fun on Sunday, I guess at Clandon Park.
All the best
Gobbo
Although they look brand new, I was lucky enough to pick up the pair second hand, in the same edition some time ago...(2nd revised). They have inside the flap Vol 1, £65.00 and Vol 2, £42.50 respectively!!! :o :o :o
Bless the Oxfam bookshop in Birmingham!! It used to be a repository of lovely military history books...Not so much these days, and of course, they have learned the value of the "hard to come by".... ::)
That not withstanding, the easiest one to navigate and start with is the John Gaylor "Military Badge Collecting" which recently, after the death of the author went into a new, but not I feel, better edition (mine is the 1977 revised edition)
I still use it as first call for badges. It is the edition I got as an alternative to fireworks one bonfire night when I was a small child...I was given the choice...Fireworks or the equivalent money for books....Books won everytime!
Next, I shall give away the secrets of the Magic Circle! I seem to have given all my secrets away! ::) ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I'm sure there will be fun at Clandon on Sunday...10 mins form home!!
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My other half was Artillery too, like you NS [Rhyl and Germany 1958/9]. Mistyrose
Are we surrounded by Drop Shorts?? :o :o :o
Did I ever tell you the one about white lanyards and the abandonment of the guns....?? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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We both just got caught then before it was abolished and the kids had to invent the gap year to take its place. Doubtless your OH has fond memories of training, presumably at Oswestry. Better be careful or we shall be told off by a fierce moderator for trivial chat in a serious thread! So despite the lanyard Frederick's badge is not Artillery.
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No Scrimnet you did not but just a word of warning do not try to borrow a penknife in a RHA mess!
All the best
Gobbo
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Here you go mate 19.99 plus p&p, and cheaper than a certain South American river...
http://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/?product_id=548
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There are no fierce mods on here....
Honest... ;D
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No Arthur Frederick's badge is not Artillery and yes OH enjoyed his 2 years but I got it wrong should have been 1957/8. Mistyrose
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No Arthur Frederick's badge is not Artillery and yes OH enjoyed his 2 years but I got it wrong should have been 1957/8. Mistyrose
We know... ;)
Just having a dig at "Drop Shorts"...as one does!
(ie OG ;D)
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Here is another badge that my Grandfather wore on his lapel in the 1920's. Not sure if it is a Military badge or not. Mistyrose
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Hi
It looks like the Silver War Badge. This was given to soldiers who had served but were discharged on medical grounds, most often because of wounds. It was to be worn on the lapel of civilian dress and prevented them being harassed by white feather donors for not being in uniform. Ties in nicely with the wound in the leg. I wonder if he went to India in 1914 with the others, got wounded and was shipped home for treatment. Perhaps discharged in late 1915 or even later as no longer fit for active service.
This means that he should be in the NA Silver Badge List, which may give details of his service and wound. Worth a visit to Kew if you can manage it. The SWB award should be recorded on his medal card so we are looking for an Arthur Foster, East Surreys with the SWB.
All the best
Gobbo
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Hi
I have not managed to find him on A***y medal cards looking for Arthur Foster, Frederick Foster and also Forster. >:(
Blow it!
Gobbo
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Hi Gobbo,
Yes it is the SWB. Looked on a. site found 2 Arthur Foster's in London Reg. 1 11th and 1 4th.
My son came up with the 9th - Queen Victoria's Regiment. I think I need to look at the Medical Cards index. Mistyrose
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Hi
I keep forgetting to ask what was the name he preferred to use - Arthur, Frederick, Fred or what?
I only searched the medal cards for somebody indexed as in the East Surreys so if he was indexed as London Regt I could have missed him.
All the best
Gobbo
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He signed himself as Arthur F Foster on the 1911 census. Mistyrose
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I searched the Medal Card Index on NA site. Came up with an Arthur Foster 4 Lond R Pte 205206
Victory Roll T P1/101 B4 Page 346 underneath states -do-
and Arthur Foster 11th Lond R 6547 Pte Lab C 396362[?] Victory Roll LC/101/B140 page 14225 underneath states -do-. Nothing on either card abound SWB, I don't really understand them. Can anyone help. Mistyrose
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Hi Misty
On the record that I know best the SWB award is written on the bottom left hand line of the card with its SWB list reference. The entry "Victory Roll T P1/101 B4 Page 346" is the reference to the entry on the medal rolls.
I just looked at the two cards. They show that both soldiers were awarded the Victory and British medals. Since neither has a 1915 Star I guess that they were not involved in fighting in 1915 or earlier. There is no record of the award of the SWB but No 6547 was at some stage transferred to the Labour Corps, which was set up early in 1917. Although its main duty was to provide front line labour services, in 1917 it was also acting as a holding unit for soldiers who were unfit for active service with their original or equivalent units. So No 6547 mat be in the Labour Corps because he was a fit labourer but I think that he is probably there because he has become an unfit infantryman.
Do you have a home address for Arthur during the 1914-18 period? Forgive me if you have already posted that and I have missed it. The home address is a help when looking at the remaining fragments of the army service records.
All the best
Gobbo
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Hi Gobbo,
When my father was born in 1915 they were living at 20, Kings Road, Long Ditton, Surrey. On the 1911 census return it records the address as 65, Kings Road, Long Ditton, Surbiton, Surrey.
regards, Mistyrose
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It has just been suggested to me that my Grandpa's Cap Badge could be the "Kings Royal Rifle Corps'
Q. Could a Surrey Reservist be allocated to that Corps?
The Badge looks similar.
Mistyrose
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Unfortunately, there are about x15 Rifle Regts cap badges that all look almost the same (Maltese Cross)!! ;D i/c KRRC :-[
I have plumped for the most likely given his background stories, and the look of the badge (large centre) ;) ;D
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Hi
I bought Gaylor following Scrimnet's recommendation (and not from the lady warrior, who wanted about twice the Pen & Sword price - good on yer Scrimnet). The Gaylor illustration of the East Surrey badge (Plate 21A of my 8th edition) shows a Maltese cross with no crown above. There is a pale area in the photograph just above the cross that just might be a crown but I am not at all sure. I am certain that the centre of Arthur's badge is a solid blob and was quite convinced it was East Surrey when I read the bit on the museum site "Examples with voided and solid centres are recorded." And we do know that 6th E Surrey went to India even if Arthur did not travel with the main body.
All the best
Gobbo
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Nice to think I still have some uses!!! ;D ;D ;D
I didnt think it was a crown either... ;)
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Hello Scrimnet,
I have been looking through the NA online catalogue for the Silver War Badge indexes as I feel that this is possibly the only way I am going to get my Gramp's WW1 records. You say that you think that his cap badge identifies him as being in the 6th Battalion East Surreys TF unit. I have located
the following references at the NA: WO329/3158 - Silver War Badge: other ranks. WO329/3160 through to WO 329/3177 Territorial Force [London]. Do you think that these are the right references for this Battalion?
regards, Mistyrose
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Yes, I think they probably are!! ;) ;D
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Hi
I was looking at the NA catalogue last night trying to understand the records without much success. However, I did notice that the Indian Army medal record cards are in a separate series to the UK army medal cards. I think this means that they are not on A******y and would be missed by someone who only had access to that site. What I could not tell is whether the 6th East Surreys having been posted to India would count as Indian Army. If so Arthur's medal card might be in that set, which I think can be searched on line at the NA.
All the best
Gobbo
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Hi Everyone,
More research has brought up the following;
EAST SURREY REGIMENT
3rd Vol. Bn.
Other Rank's
Helmet Plate 1881-1902
In 1908 the 2nd and 3rd Volunteer Battalions became the regiment's 5th and 6th Territorial Battalions. The 6th Battalion continued to wear a badge of Maltese cross design, with "South Africa" on the upper arm and "1900-02" on the lower. In the centre was a circlet inscribed The East Surrey Regt./6th Battalion" surrounding an eight-pointed star bearing the arms of Guildford. Examples with voided and [SOLID CENTRES] are recorded.
1/6th Battalion_August 1914 : in Kingston-upon-Thames. Part of Surrey Brigade in Home Counties Division. [Ties in nicely with the SURREY NATIONAL RESERVE]. Embarked at Southampton on 29 October 1914._2 December 1914 : landed at Bombay, whereupon the Division was broken up. Was posted to the Allahabad Brigade in 8th (Lucknow) Division. Moved in March 1915 to Rawalpindi Brigade in 2nd (Rawalpindi) Division. [PERHAPS THE PHOTO TAKEN IN JULY/AUG 1915 WAS AFTER HE WAS WOUNDED]. I now only have to discover his Regimental Number!
Thanks Scrimnet I think you are spot on!
Mistyrose
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We aim to please!!
Now then...The badge you illustrated is a "helmet plate" "up to 1902"...These had the Queen Victoria Crown on...Helmet plates were much bigger and went on the "home service" helmets....
The one I have been looking at, and is also opined by Gobbo is this one....Which lost the crown by WW1....
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Hello Scrimnet,
I have just had an email from Ian EJ Chatfield the Curator of the Queen's Royal Surrey Regiment Museum about the photograph I sent him. He says;
' It looks to me like the badge of the 6th battalion East Surrey Regiment who went to India to relieve regular troops to return to the western front'
Thanks to everyone for their interest and help. I will now try and discover his Regimental Number and SWB list No.
Mistyrose
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Just thought I would let everyone know, if at first you don't succeed........... keep looking!
I have just contacted a long lost cousin. I asked her about the Silver War Badge and she knew where it was. I now have the SWB number [438634] to continue my research.
I'm over the moon!!
Mistyrose
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Just thought I would let everyone know, if at first you don't succeed........... keep looking!
I have just contacted a long lost cousin. I asked her about the Silver War Badge and she knew where it was. I now have the SWB number [438634] to continue my research.
I'm over the moon!!
Mistyrose
Excellent!!!
That will help a lot...A pity she does not have any medals as well though!!!
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Hi Scrimnet,
Just thought I would let you know that I have today received documents from the NA regarding my Grandfather's SWB, It states that he served with the 24th Home Counties Bn. Rifle Brigade. Does not mention the East Surreys. Regimental No: 206256. So I can now confirm his medal card. I am a bit perplexed as on this card it gives two regimental numbers 206256 and 99. Any ideas why?
Mistyrose
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The 24th were formed from 'supernumary' (odds & sods!) TF units, in November 1915 being posted to India in Feb 1916.
To be posted to the 24th, therefore, he must have been in another unit first - I think this may explain his two numbers, and also why he appears to be in an East Surreys uniform.
Kipling & King p705 shows the Rifle Brigade cap badge, and it has a wreath around it, unlike your photo. I think the photo is of him in his first Battalion.
Pete.