RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: shaneooo on Saturday 09 May 09 13:44 BST (UK)
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hi,
Im looking for any information for stephen baker b elham/hythe abt 1861 and wife phoebe rossiter b canterbury 1863 between 1881 and 1891.
they both seem to of dropped of the radar.
the married in elham 1889 2a 1561.
my budget is blown for this month so the marriage cert will have to wait but i have no information on phoebe's parents.
they are shown as living in a caravan in jubilee st sittingbourne in 1901.
any help wil be appreciated.thanks. shane.
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This looks like the baptism you are looking for
BAKER Stephen son of John & Mercy 22 Oct 1861 at Hythe.
from
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gypsy/gypsy.htm
a great site for tracing Kent travellers. :D
but I can't see Phoebe. :(
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Thanks Bearkat, not seen this site before, found some goldsmith family on here to.
Cheers, shane.
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hello shane,your thread here has solved my phoebe harris problem on the general board.i was trying to find a phoebe harris who married a stephen baker in canterbury in 1885.but from your info i see that my stephen bakers wife was phoebe rossiter,many thanks for that.also,i dont know if this is significant,but i have the marriage certificate(27/07/1904 canterbury) of elizabeth baker born 1877 canterbury and mark goldup,general dealer,born 1867 stelling minnis.elizabeths father was a stephen baker,on the 1871/81 as general dealer/broom maker,he married a hawker names isabela holness..marks father,also mark,born 1831,waltham,general dealer,married louisa baker born 1841,barham,general/timber dealer/bobbing maker etc,she was the daughter of james baker born 1801,wood dealer and margaret ??? born 1803,sutton,hawker.this isnt the other stephen,but could be related,nel.
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Hi Nel, ive just ordered their marrige certificate today so will have more info in about a week, hopefully with phoebe's parents details on.
shane.
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shane,id be very intrested in her parents,youll probably only get her father off the marriage cert,but that might get you a bit further,hopefully hear from you when it turns up,if not before,nel.
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No luck with marriage cert, under fathers details says illigitimate, but asys she was born in folkstone. no age and proffesion is Traveller.
Bit of a dead end but nice to have the certificate.
shane.
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Who were the marriage witnesses Shane - they could be a clue?
Casalguidi :)
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Hi Casalguidi, looks like Frances cowell and Thiriam? sister charity.
thanks, shane.
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shane,i presume you have stephens sister ruth married to thomas rossiter,nel.
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Hi Nel, yes thanks, ive found a mercy pheobe rossiter b 1864 canterbury, do you know if theres a baptisms online for this district ?. Cant find any link to ruths hubbys family. It maybe her mothers maiden name as she is shown as illegitimate on marriage cert.
thanks.
shane.
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sorry shane,i dont know if that areas baptisms are available online.there is a researcher on here called bettyofkent who seems to have access to some canterbury baptisms,im wondering if she might see this or perhaps pm her.i didnt realise that phoebe was known as mercy phoebe,ive only tried phoebe in searches and found nothing.i think with two baker sibs marrying rossiters they will be connected as most kent rossiters are,its finding the link thats the challenge.incidentally,i dont know if youve seen the bbcromanyroots board today,theres an intresting posting on rossiters,a lady has traced them back to spain,coming here on the armarda,and originally they were rositas.this intrested me as my spains are meant to be from spain,also coming ashore at the time of the armarda,nel.
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Hi Nel,
Not sure if mercy phoebe is the same one but its all i could find, i cant find mercy p rossiter on census either.
shane.
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shane,have you seen this entry i found whilst looking for phoebes born c1864 canterbury.living in a caravan in charlton near dover is george reid born 1852,maidstone,betsey ??? born 1852,sittingbourne,eliza born 1873,canterbury,george born 1878,sittingbourne,mary ann born 1880,maidstone and phobe e born 1864,canterbury,sister.im wondering if betsey might be a rossiter,coming from sittingbourne,and that phoebe might be her sister.i couldnt find a reid/rossiter marriage.it could be nothing,maybe some of the other better researchers than me can have a look,nel.
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Cheers Nel, im just having a looksee.
shane.
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OOOH getting complicated.
found george reid born brenchley which is near maidstone with parents but no pheobe, so you may be right about betsey, but no sign of them before this date on BMD! i think rossiter is an assumed name! whats your thoughts. ( much needed ).
thanks. shane.
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shane,with phoebe born canterbury,the sittinbourne connection for betsey,the rossiter name in the mix,living near folkstone on 1881,all my instincts are telling me this is phoebe,but thats all it is,just instinct.how it all fits together is a bit beyond me after a drop of the old tati parni.ill have another look now and see if i can find anything.i think itd be an idea to start a new thread on the reids,and see if anyone can find george/betseys marriage,nel.
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Good idea Nel, ill try that
shane
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Looking at http://freebmd.rootsweb.com and http://extranet3.kent.gov.uk/sp/rois/marriagesearch.cfm shows what could be a double wedding with the other couple being William ROSSITER and Emily GRANT:
1901 - Horley, Surrey
William ROSSITER head mar 39 traveller/hawker b.Maidstone Kent
Emily wife 29 b.Maidstone Kent
Joseph son 15 b.Maidstone Kent
RG13/629 folio 68 page 21
......................
Forgetting about them for now and looking for any "travelling" Phoebe born about the same time as yours in Kent brings up:
1871 travellers on Barming Heath, Barming, Kent
Henry SMITH head mar 35 b.Tonbridge
Barbara wife 37 b.Milton Kent
Mary Ann dau 11 b.Chesterfield Suffolk
William son 8 b.West Farleigh Kent
Phebe dau 5 b.Canterbury
Caroline dau 3 b.Mitcham Surrey
Celina dau 2 b.Nettlestead
RG10/939 folio 154 page 27
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1861 - tent, Willesborough, Kent
Henry GUMBRILL head mar 22 b.Tunbridge Kent
Barbara wife 24 b.Canterbury
Mary Ann dau 3 b.Chesterfield Cambridgeshire
RG9/515 folio 71 page 9
..........................
Looking for baptisms of any children, there is Selina GUMBREL dau of Henry & Barbara baptised at Nettlestead 1868 http://www.familysearch.org so can be pretty sure that the SMITH and GUMBRILL families above are one and the same.
Have to go now but will get back to it later (I have a possible theory).
Casalguidi :)
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Could Barbara be a ROSSITER and all her kids illegitimate? There is a Barbaressa ROSSITER baptised 1837 Canterbury dau of Thomas & Barbara http://www.familysearch.org
If this theory is correct then this would make Barbara/Barbaressa (Phoebe's mum) sister to Thomas ROSSITER who married Ruth BAKER (Stephen's parents) thus Stephen BAKER and Phoebe ROSSITER would be first cousins. Possible?
Casalguidi :)
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Possible link to READ/REED/REID:
Caroline ROSSITER married John READ Thanet registration district 1889 http://freebmd.rootsweb.com
1891 - 11 Ellington Cottages, St Lawrence Ramsgate, Kent
John READ head mar30 scissor grinder b.Canterbury
Caroline wife 24 b.Sittingborne
RG12/732 folio 155 page 30
Casalguidi :)
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You have been busy Casalguidi ;D, this looks very promising, but i'd like to tie it up with a certificate, i'll be having a look over the next couple of days, again many thanks for your time, your a star ;D.
shane.
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Hi again Shane, and Hi to Nel, I believe I am a descendant of the Stephen Baker who married Phoebe Harris.
Stephen and Phoebe married on 16 March 1885 at Holy Cross Canterbury where a lot of my Baker family events took place. Stephen's brother Albert Baker was the father of Albert John who married Elizabeth Goldsmith, daughter of Thomas Goldsmith and Elizabeth Kenny. Stephen and Albert's father was also Stephen and he married Jane Elizabeth Read, Stephen was born in Hoath, Kent and Jane in Chislet. As far as I know they were not Travellers.
I think there were Rossiters living in Canterbury around St.Peter's and Holy Cross, I'll have a look through some old notes later.
Coincidence Shane us both having a Stephen Baker.
Best wishes, Brenda
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Hello Brenda, coincidences are what make this so addictive, just when you think youve sussed it something or someone throws a spanner in the works!
My stephen and phoebe were married in 1889 at st peters, folkstone.
Just a note on the read/reid/reed name, some were travellers, john reed was a witness at moses goldsmith and sarah stone mar 1847 ashford, there are some other reads that i had a look at a couple of months ago. I think there was another roots chatter trying to find your baker family from canterbury on this forum under the possilbility they were travellers.
talk soon,
shane.
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Hi coz, there were travelling Bakers in Canterbury, I used to correspond with a somebody who was looking for that surname in Canterbury. Eventually he found a Traveller connection with Baker and Scamp. He has or had a website with information on his family. I tried a link to it the other day but couldn't get to it, I think that was through a link on another website.
It was a lady who found Moses & Sarah Goldsmith's marriage for me and I thought she said she had Rossiters who were near neighbours of my Bakers in Canterbury, but I think now it was Tappendens.
All the best, Brenda
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Another reed, rossiter link.
elizabeth rossiter married john reed tinman 1847 dec 24th Ashford
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Hi Shane, turning out old papers today prior to a move (I hope) before the end of the year. Came across that information that I mentioned before which goes something like this - Thomas Rossiter married Barbara, they had son James who m. (3)Susan and they had a son William (or Belcher or Matty abt. 1879) he m. Emily Tappenden 1900, had dau. Caroline.
Emily Tappenden, b.1882 was daughter of William Tappenden and Susan Ann Baker and Susan was daughter of George Baker and Sarah King.
I hope that is of some help, it was in a letter dated 1997 from a fellow researcher who has a great website full of information about Travelling/Gypsy people. I am sure you will have seen it.
Hope you and family are well,
Love, Brenda
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Hi Brenda, were all fine thankyou, hope you are too. :).
I gave mickey's dau in law your email address to pass on, has she made contact with you.
It looks like im going to go with Casalguidis theory about barbara rossiter being phoebes mother, ive looked at someones tree that shows barbara with henry smith but doesnt show any children, maybe this information is from word of mouth and not the internet? hope to find a baptism to sort it out.
thanks, shane.
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Just a quick reply Shane, didn't hear from Mickey, I hope it didn't disappear with my spam sucker-upper. I forgot to say that the researcher had Thomas Rossiter's wife as Barbara Lee.
All the best and happy hunting.
Love Brenda
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Recieved birth cert for a Mercy phoebe rossiter b 2 feb 1864 kings st, st alphage, canterbury, mother barbara rossiter residing stour st, no fathers name, looks like its our phoebe!
shane.
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Hi Shane,
William Rossiter mentioned above married Emily Grant in the same quarter as Phoebe so I'm wondering if William might be related,possibly brother and sister or cousins.
Thomas Rossiter born circa 1811 at Canterbury and Barbara Lee born circa 1811 at Milton married on October 21st 1833 at St Paul Canterbury and were the parents of Thomas who married Ruth Baker and of Barbaressa ( Phoebe's mother).
I've been mapping this family too but there are lots of loose ends which I am trying to fit in to the main Rossiter family tree.
Hope this helps.
Best wishes
rcuser
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Could Barbara be a ROSSITER and all her kids illegitimate? There is a Barbaressa ROSSITER baptised 1837 Canterbury dau of Thomas & Barbara http://www.familysearch.org
If this theory is correct then this would make Barbara/Barbaressa (Phoebe's mum) sister to Thomas ROSSITER who married Ruth BAKER (Stephen's parents) thus Stephen BAKER and Phoebe ROSSITER would be first cousins. Possible?
Casalguidi :)
Hi Casalguidi,
I think you could be right.
William Rossiter who married Emily Grant could be one of her children.
Phoebe who married Stephen Baker could be another.
Caroline could be the Caroline who married John Read born 1857, the son of John Read and Elizabeth Rossiter.
Hope this helps.
Best wishes
rcuser
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Hi rcuser,
thanks for your help, i think this theory sounds good, my neighbour is a rossiter who married into the roberts family, i will ask her if she has any information on her tree as i think she comes from this family, have you any info on henry smith/gumbrel as ive not been able to find anything on him as of yet.
many thanks, shane.
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Hi Shane,
Thanks for that.Unfortunately Henry Smith/Gumbrill is new to me at the moment.
Name-changing is not unusual among travellers but it does tend to make them harder to track.
Looks like Barbaressa had her children by him but because they did not marry they were named as Rossiters.
Did you find out any more about the Betsy who married George Reid please?
Best wishes
rcuser
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Hi rcuser, i think ive found phoebe reid/ read on the 1871 with family that are tent dwelling
RG10/960/65 p 17
there is a george reede mar to betsey hadlow faversham 1873 which is the birth place given for their daughter 1873, still looking so will let you know.
shane.
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Saw on http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mrawson/newspaper2.html#week10 mention of "John Baker a gipsy arrested for murder Finchley Wood 7/4" This was in the Kentish Express and Ashford News at the above link. Hope that is of interest to someone with a Baker ancestor.
There are other Bakers mentioned but this the only gypsy one.
Brenda