RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => United States of America => US Lookup Requests => Topic started by: WYNN on Thursday 07 May 09 12:33 BST (UK)
-
My great grandmother Margaret Harrison born Castle Eden Co Durham England c1860 emigrated to America and married a German Jew but I dont' know where to begin to find this marriage. Can anyone help please?
Wynn
-
You would need to figure out what state she married in. Do you know when she emigrated? If she's on a passenger list, it might say where she went to, but the earlier lists usually don't give much information. Do you know her parents' names?
-
I have only been able to find a Margaret Harrison age 23 on a passenger list. The date is June 1891 and the ship arrived in New York. So not sure whether this is her. Her parents were William Harrison 1835 and Mary Ann Blades 1832 but they didn't emigrate with her she went on her own......maybe with friend not sure.
Hope you can help. I've been searching 'forever' with this one.
Wynn
-
Hello Wynn, Margaret is with her parents and siblings in Wingate, Co. Durham in the 1881 census. Obviously, she emigrated after that. Also, interestingly, her age in the 1881 census in listed as 18, so that might be helpful to you in looking for her on passenger lists. Her birth year would appear to be closer to 1863. I am certain that another Rootschatter will be able to find her marriage. Pat
-
Hello Wynn, The IGI has a POSSIBLE marriage for you. It shows a Margaret Harrison (b. in Midlothian, Scotland ???) married Louis Schwartzman on 13 August 1898 in Manhattan, New York. Furthermore, it lists Margaret Harrison's parents as "Wm. Hy Harrison" and "Mary Ann Blass" --- I know that there are some discrepancies in this listing, HOWEVER, I think it has some similarities that are close enough and perhaps you could try to find Louis Schwartzman in the 1900 US census as well as more recent ones. Pat
-
I found this in the 1900 Census - there are some similarities & some differences with the marriage patrejax found, but I thought it might be worth noting.
421 Pleasant Ave. D-2, Manhattan, New York
Swartzman, Lewis, white, male, born Mar. 1873 in New York, age 27, married for 6 years, parents born Germany, occupation - butcher
wife Margaret, white, female, born Dec. 1861 in Scotland, age 38, parents born Scotland, immigrated 1887, 13 yrs. in US, at home
son William, white, male, born Apr. 1896, age 4, born New York, father born New York, mother born Scotland
-
Wow I am shaking with excitement!!! It sounds possible but don't know why she states Scotland as birth place but it may be possible tho none of the other siblings say they were born in Scotland. This is fantastic news!!
Thank you all sooooo much wish I'd found you guys many years ago.
Big hug Wynn
ps I'll keep you posted.
-
Hello WYNN, I'm doing the happy dance for you, too! ;D Let me share a personal bit on my own family. My Father was born in the North of England in Newcastle-on-Tyne (fairly close to Castle Eden)....When he came to America, many people thought his accent was Scottish. Soooo, perhaps people who filled out various forms assumed (ahem!) that your great grandmother was from Scotland.... Just a thought, but that could be the case. Also, another thought is when you get a wee bit further back, perhaps one of Margaret's parents were from Scotland and she may have misunderstood the question.....Please do keep us posted, as we all LOVE success stories! Pat
-
The length of the marriage might be an issue, too, since 6 years would put them around 1894. However, it's always possible that they were covering for an out-of-wedlock birth.
-
Hello all, Yes, shellyesq has a valid point ...a few questions: #1- how did you know your great grandmother married a "German Jew"? #2 - Also, do you know the names of any other children?? I am assuming since this is your direct line that you know at least one other name....if this family could be found in other US censuses that might be helpful in determining if it is "your family." Pat
-
Thanks for your interest guys. This is what and how I know.
My Grandmother, Eleanor West Harrison was Margarets illiegitimate child born 1880, Wingate, Co. Durham (info birth cert obtained) She (Eleanor) stayed in England and was brought up by grandparents (William and Mary) and married my Grandfather hence me!
Family stories from my Mother: Great Grandmother went to America and married a German Jew.
Plus info from my Mother : my (Eleanor) Grandmother's father was a butcher.
Now it seems strange to me that according to the 1900 census Lewis Schwartzman was a butcher (info from shelleyesq)
Could family memories be crossed here. I doubt it was possible for Margaret to visit America become pregnant by Lewis leave Eleanor in England then return to America and marry Lewis/ Louis. Today maybe but I doubt it would happen in the 1800's. Any thoughts?
The Scottish 'thing' : Maybe the family were living in Scotland when Margaret was born. I've been trying to find the family (William and Mary Ann) on the 1861 census but had no luck so far.
I'm sure this is Margaret married to Louis tho !!! Yippee!!
Hugs Wynn
-
Hi
Here's the family in 1861:
Winning, Castle Eden, Durham
RG9/3747/81/16
William H. Harrison head Mar 27 Cabinet maker Yorkshire Richmond
Mary A. do Wife mar 29 Cabinet maker's wife Yorkshire Middleton Tyas
John do Son 6 Scholar Yorkshire Middleton Tyas
William do Son 4 Scholar Yorkshire Stokesley
Thomas do son 2 Yorkshire South Stockton
Elizabeth do Daur 7mo Durham Castle Eden
In 1871 Margaret was 8 b Castle Eden Durham: RG10/4976/105/66
In 1881 Margaret was 18 b Castle Eden Durham: RG11/4970/61/79
Her parents were consistent about their Yorkshire birthplaces, and none of their many children has a Scottish birthplace. Sorry to be a downer, but I'd be cautious about drawing any firm conclusion that the Margaret in America who claimed to be born in Scotland of Scottish parents is the same as your Margaret just yet...
Anna :)
-
This looks likely to be Margaret's birth registration:
Mar qtr 1863*
Margaret HARRISON Easington 10a 306
* this would be consistent with a Dec 1862 birth, in which case the age for Margaret Swartzman on the US 1900 census would be only a year out (not too bad!).
-
Could family memories be crossed here. I doubt it was possible for Margaret to visit America become pregnant by Lewis leave Eleanor in England then return to America and marry Lewis/ Louis. Today maybe but I doubt it would happen in the 1800's. Any thoughts?
Given Eleanor's middle name, I would think it much more likely that her father was a Mr West from somewhere in County Durham, unless you know of some other reason why the name "West" should have been used :) Middle names are often a useful clue to paternity in cases of illegitimate birth.
-
OK, the very good news is that by 1920 Margaret Schwartzman has abandoned the Scottish fantasy of the 1900 census (continued in the 1910 census) and is enumerated as born England of English parents!
In 1920 Louis is still a butcher and they're living in East Orange, Essex, New Jersey. Their son William L. Schwartzman is a mechanic and married to a Clara from Pennsylvania. This couple and their two children Charles N (1 yr 2 months) and Anna (2 months) are with Louis and Margaret.
Incidentally, William (as William Lewis Schwartzman) had enlisted for WW1, apparently giving his birthdate as 1 April 1895 though I can't get access to the document.
Years later, in 1942, he enlisted for WW2 service as William Louis Schwartzman, born 1 April 1896. By this time he and his wife were living at 21 River Edge Rd, Lincoln Park, Morris Co, New Jersey. William was 5ft 4in tall, weighed 136lb and had brown eyes, black hair and a ruddy complexion.
There is a likely death for him in Pequannock, Morris, New Jersey in Jan 1986 (as William Schwartzman) - birthdate recorded this time as 1 April 1895, from Social Security records.
Anna :)
-
There's a passenger list for the SS Lucania from Liverpool 23 Sep. 1905 to New York Sep. 29 with this:
Schwartzman, Margaret, age 44, female, married, nationality - England, last permanent residence - Sunderland, going to Newark, NJ, previously in the US in Newark in 1905, going to home at 98 South XI (?) St., Newark, NJ
Schwartzman, Lewis, age 9, male, single, son, US born, passage paid by mother
Also, the WWII Draft Registration Card for William Louis Schwartzman (note that the WWI & WWII Draft Registration Cards do not mean that he enlisted or had to serve in the military - all men of a certain age were required to register for the draft) says he was born in New York City, which seems to fit in with their marriage & them being in Manhattan on the 1900 Census.
-
Guys you are AMAZING!!! You have found out sooooo much in such a short time and I have literally been stuck in this rut since 2003!!! Not knowing how to find out who Margaret married.....then I found this amazing site. I'm really really excited now especially as I may have some living relatives I didn't even know about.
Yippee!!!!!
Big hugs Wynn x
-
(note that the WWI & WWII Draft Registration Cards do not mean that he enlisted or had to serve in the military - all men of a certain age were required to register for the draft)
I didn't know that!
-
Just looking at all the info. If William L was married to Clara in 1910 census and his birthdate is 1896/1895 ....was this possible to be married so young at this time?
Wynn
-
Just looking at all the info. If William L was married to Clara in 1910 census and his birthdate is 1896/1895 ....was this possible to be married so young at this time?
Wynn
Sorry, I wasn't very clear before (have now amended) - it was in the 1920 census that we first saw Clara.
This may be their marriage (from www.italiangen.org):
W SCHWARTZMAN
Clara SCHKURMAN
10 Jan 1920, Manhattan
-
Possible death for Clara from the Social Security Death Index (matching the location of that found earlier for William):
Clara SCHWARTZMAN
Birth: 21 October 1897
Death: Jun 1986 Pequannock, Morris, New Jersey
-
(note that the WWI & WWII Draft Registration Cards do not mean that he enlisted or had to serve in the military - all men of a certain age were required to register for the draft)
I didn't know that!
Here's some information about the draft registration cards that might be helpful:
http://genealogy.about.com/od/records/p/wwi_draft.htm
http://genealogy.about.com/od/records/p/wwii_draft.htm
(I can't get William's WWI card to open, either.)
Also, another thing to keep in mind: the town given on the Social Security Death Index as last residence or last benefit is not necessarily where the person died. http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rwguide/lesson10.htm
-
This may be their marriage (from www.italiangen.org):
W SCHWARTZMAN
Clara SCHKURMAN
10 Jan 1920, Manhattan
I found a naturalization petition for a Clara Schwartzman, nee Schkurman, who was married to a Wolf Schwartzman and they were married on this date, so I think these aren't the ones we're looking for. I didn't find a good match on that index, so maybe they married elsewhere.
-
So am I right in thinking that Clara's maiden name was NOT Schukerman as first thought?
I'm now going to look up Morris County. I would love to see where they lived. There may be some old photographs somewhere.
Wynn
-
So am I right in thinking that Clara's maiden name was NOT Schukerman as first thought?
No, it doesn't look like it. If you were so inclined, you could order William and/or Clara's original Social Security application, which would likely have their parents' names on it. The fee is $27. If you go to rootsweb.com, search for them on the Social Security Death Index. After you get the right result, on the far right, there is a link that says SS-5 letter & that will generate a letter to the Social Security Administration. You can print that out & send it with the fee. I'm not sure how the procedure works if you're outside of the US, so if that's the case, maybe one of our knowledgeable folks can pop in and help you with that.
-
Perhaps William and Clara married in New Jersey - they were there by 1920, and the two children they had in that census were born in NJ.
Their son Charles ("Charles H." in 1920) may have died as Charles Schwartzman in Jan 1947 per the SSDI - in which case his birthdate was given as 19 May 1918.
Anna
-
Is William L 's son Charles N or Charles H?
Wynn
-
Please forgive me for butting in here but I know without a doubt that you are talking about my great Aunt Clara and Great Uncle Willie Schwartzman. My maiden name is Schkurman. Clara was my grandfather, Jacob Schlurman's sister. Willie's name was Wolf but he was called Willie by all. He was in the fur business in New York in the 40's and probably before and after.
I remember their daughter, Gladys, who was my father Harold's favorite cousin. They along with cousin Stanley Schkurman would have roaring good times at Aunt Clara's house whenever we went to NYC to visit. That was in the 50's so Aunt Clara and Uncle Willie were probably in their 60's or so. Uncle Willie had a great shock of white hair, I remember. I was young so everyone older than 15 looked old to me.
My grandfather, Jacob, along with brothers Joe and Harry and possibly another brother, and Clara, all came from Kishnev according to what my family story is. My grandfather is listed in the Kishnev Benevolent Society's records. In Jewish genealogy books, you can find mention of the Schkurman family in Kishnev.
I have some pictures of Clara (not scanned) along with other Schkurman relatives taken when I was a child (1940's) in the park across from my grandparent's apartment in the Bronx. There are none of Willie that I can find.
I hope this helps you in your search. I signed up for this site to answer your query so I hope I am doing this correctly. Is it possible that we are related? I can't tell from the previous posts.
Best Regards!
-
Thank you so much for replying to me and supplying so much information. I really apopreciate it. I have been trying for many years to find my Great Grandmother.
If this is the correct Clara we will be related through marriage to Willie but my direct descent is through William/Willie who was my great grandmother's grandson.
She was Margaret Harrison and her husband was Louis Schwartzman. There was a son William L which is the Uncle Willie you mention I don't know about the 'Wolf' name as I'd presumed he'd been named William after Margarets father William Harrison.
Also I have only traced two chn. of Wiilie and Clara's.....Charles N and Anna ....no Gladys.
Do you know if any of the children were married and also did they have any children?
Margaret Harrison's daughter Eleanor, who she had illegitamate, was my grandmother whom I adored I do have a photograph of Eleanor but sadly not Margaret.
Thank you again for making contact. Regards Wynn
-
There are so many ways our 2 accounts intersect but I wonder if they really are one and the same. I don't recall an Uncle Willie's accent being any different from the rest of the family who were all from Rumania, Poland, Russia and the surrounding area, not from England. But I was very young so that wouldn't have been something I could have distinguished.
I think there was a son, Gladys's brother, but I don't recall his name. It would be fairly unusual for a Jewish family in that area to name a son Charles however. I am almost certain that Gladys married and had children but I'm not sure who they are or where they are.
What I am certain about is that Clara was my grandfather's sister and her maiden name was Schkurman.
There is a second cousin named Schkurman in California and I will contact him to see what he remembers. I think he is the son of Stanley Schkurman, my father's cousin. Another cousin who is the son of Elvira, married to Mischa Sartori, lives in New England and I think I can find contact information on him. I don't know if Elvira is a sister or cousin to my grandfather.
One question that may help answer some of these questions is whether the people to whom you refer are Jewish. My entire family is Jewish including Wolf and Clara. I know they kept Kosher and were quite observant, not something to enter into lightly.
What a fascinating result of a casual search on my family name! I'll be back to you when I have more information. Very nice to hear from you!
-
With regard to the Jewish connection. Yes my great grandmother went to America and married a German Jew......the family tell me. i.e. Margaret Harrison wed Lewis/Louis Schwartzman they had a son William Lewis who married Clara Shuckurman (not sure now re maiden name). Clara was born in Pennsylvania. They had two chn. Charles N and Anna.
But you could be right it is the wrong Clara. Looking back at all the info on here which the guys have helped with. There are two Clara Schuckurman and one did marry a Wolf Schwartzman in Manhattan 10th Jan1920.
Thanks again for your interest and please keep in touch. There has got to be a coinnection if the name is the same. I'll see if I can send for the original social security reg. Don't know if I can do this outside of USA tho as I live in Cyprus.
Again re. Jewish connection. I often thought my English family were Jewish but have not practised it. This is only my thought however not ever mentioned by the family. My Grandfathers name is Samuel Strugnall is Strugnall a Jewish name I've often wondered.
Wynn