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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Trees on Monday 04 May 09 16:29 BST (UK)
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Looking for the death of an ancestor we have followed a story of an amazing con man, thief, and murderer who was accused of child cruelty by his 10 year old son and with a daughter involved with a bigamist with four known wives
Please feel free to join the search for more about this incredible life and help me find the truth of what happened to Ann PRATT his first wife and sister to my 2X Gt grandfather
The story starts in the Uk goes to Australia and ends in the USA via New Zealand
Trees
Previous thread here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,378617.0.html
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Frederick Knowles father John was a jeweller born Scotland.
On the 1880 US census is a family living in Manhatten ( where Fred and Annie married)
It's John Knowles age 42 Jeweller born Scotland. Emma Knowles 38 born PA and Frederick 19 a clerk in store ( his father's I wonder?) born NY
Looks like the correct family, parent's christian names, age. So if Frederick's father was respectable and perhaps had money they would definitely want to keep away from ETO
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OK so at the moment we still need
a death or marriage for Ann PRATT/TURNER or Osbaldeston in Australia after 1873 ...any of the names with any spelling for them could be used.
Records of court appearances for Edwin TURNER or OSBALDESTON [ETO}
Prison records for ETO in Australia, Germany and USA
Mental institution records for him in Canada before 1901
A death for Alice Agnes OSBALDESTON
Any sightings of the family between 1903 and 1926
I will prepare a "tree" with all the names and we have a time line ready to link
many thanks for your interest
Trees
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Hi trees and everyone
I have been reading the story with considerable interest.
I am not sure if it is relevant but I understood a “ticket of leave” was not a reprieve amounting to exile from the country but a kind of parole in which they were only given limited freedom to live and work in the area near the prison and could not leave the district without the permission of the government or the district's resident magistrate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ticket_of_leave
Linda
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Have you seen what name Cockney Tom called him?
'a man calling himself Edward Baldiston, stated to be manager of the Turkish Baths in Melbourne, giving a long account of his experience at Constantinople, and other places in Turkey, and applying for the management of the Adelaide Turkish Baths.'
and. 'The baths in Melbourne were burnt down shortly after that, and Baldiston found his way to Adelaide, and presenting himself and wife at the baths,' it's 1866 he is talking about.
Now have we searched anywhere using that variation of his name?
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Well NS has sent this and its amazing how accurate you have all been
"My great-grandfather Edwin Turner Osbaldeston was born in Cheltenham on 11 July 1838. The name on his birth certificate is Edwin Turner. His parents were Josiah Scudder Osbaldeston and Mary Ann Turner who were stepfather and stepdaughter. Josiah Scudder Osbaldeston was married to Mary Ann's mother, Mary Ann Lewis Turner, the widow of Royal Navy lieutenant Charles Pye Turner. On the birth certificate and in the baptisms register of St Mary's in Cheltenham, Mary Ann Turner gave the name of Edwin's
father as Charles Pye Turner, her deceased father's name. Edwin was baptised on 30 December 1838. Josiah Scudder Osbaldeston was first a glover, then a bookbinder, then a bookseller, and lastly a travelling bookseller/stationer.
One of my great-aunt Ethel's names was Augusta. You can find her in the 1881 UK census visiting her grandfather tailor Josiah Moore in Yoxford in Suffolk. Her mother Alice Agnes Moore had taken baby Ethel and stepdaughter Annie Mabel back to England while ETO was languishing in jail in Binghamton, New York."
Unfortunately she wont be able to join us for a while
Trees
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Trees Hang on Josiah Osbaldeston was a stationer? That's the occupation of Charles Turner the father of Julian Alexander Turner born in Birmingham, and Julian's mother was Mary Ann ( it's all in the other thread)
How does Noel explain the birth of Edwina in 1882? If ETO was either in prison or on the run and Alice was in Suffolk just before Edwina was conceived?
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Ah so Julian was Edwins brother NS said she called Edwin's father Gharles i suppose to give an air of respectability don't forget Joshiah was with both mother and daughter in the same house :o
good memory Jaywit We had a discussian about Charles pye on the old thread didn't we i'll go back and take another look
H
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Hi :)
Found you! will be on the hunt shortly!
Hi LindaJ ;D ;D ;D :-*
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We know now that Mary Ann Turner used her dead father's name on Edwin's birth so seeing as Josiah had already changed his name once why shouldn't he change it to Charles Turner, and you never know the vicar might have asked to see Julian's birth certificate which will show father's name as Charles Pye Turner.
The next thing we need is to see that marriage between Mary Ann Turner and James Hubbard the witnesses on Edwin's marriage. Was James Hubbard another change of name for Josiah? or did Mary Ann marry someone else?
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Just a quick mention .. I saw that cockney Ton (CT) also stated that he as in the Crimean War.
I have checked under Baldeston,.... nothing yet!
deb
Thank NS for the info :D
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Deb Edwin probably called in on the Crimean war on his way to Turkey to learn all about Turkish Baths ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
( via the Bullring in Birmingham) and BTW I read on the other thread he said he had served in Malta in the 1840's Yes.......
Deb if you don't know the Bullring it's a shopping mall with a large statue of a bull as it's centrepiece, and you have heard the saying a load of old bull ;D ;D ;D
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Now we have Edwin's birth information from Noel, one less thing for me to look up in Glos RO.
Other than Josiah Os insolvency papers and quarter sessions is there anything else needs checking?
Susan :)
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I sent poor N a long list of queries but she is over here for a flying data collecting visit and not really able to give us too much time until she gets home but I will ask about Edwina
I wonder if ETO used some of Tom's stories to put some realism to his fantasy life he seems a bit a sponge soaking in everyone else's persona but at least we know now he did have a bit of a "Right" to add the Pye to his name but we have no proof of an Onslow connection
ooh penny has droped he was a pie turner should have been a baker ;D sorry just needed a light moment its been a heavy day
Deb can you link the time line again it is very helpful
H
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Did we find the Joshiah Scudder i remember there was a Margaret Turner marrying a Scudder did n't we decide that was going too far back but now we know there ids a definite connection perhaps that could be added to the glos. look up list if time allows please
H
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Time-Line ...will add to it when new facts come up
1841 Under TURNER, UK
1851 Under JAMES, Uk
1854 Alice Agnes Moore (Turner/Osbaldeston) born 28 Sept 1854 Suffolk
1854 ETO moves to San Fransisco...supposedly , see passport application
1860
1861 maybe employed at Turkish Baths ..left them in 1864 to go to Aus
1862 Marries Annie PRATT UK
1864 son born and dies, UK, also leaves for Aus according to Joseph Burton (owner of Turkish Baths, London)
1865
1866 Annie Mabel TURNER born Aus
period between 1865 -1876
Annie disappears, ETO jailed/escapes, Aus
One newspaper article does state that ETO had been on a ball and chain for 10 years whilst serving his sentence in Aus!
ETO States in the Who's Who Magazine (of 1909) that he had been part of the Burke and Will's exploration team who had gone looking for new areas and to find out what happened to Ludwig Leichardt.... B&W had started out in 1861 and both died June 1861 ... so ETO was not in the party ... so how could Annie have been dragged off by a Kangaroo! Also there were no women in the party, just 15 men!!!! ETO and Annie Pratt only arrived in Aus circa 1864/5 (see post on next page)
1876 ETO spotted in NZ, is jailed there then escapes from Addington jail and returns to Melbourne to get his daughter, Annie mabel.
1879 Alice agnes Moore/Turner/osbaldeston arrives in US ..she is consistent with this on censuses, naturalization record and passenger lists.
1880: * ETO = Alice Agnes Moore, 16 May 1880, Manhattan
* ETO, Agnes, Annie TURNER living in Manhattan;
* Augusta M A Turner born Rome, USA ( born after US 1800 census and 6 months prior to UK 1881 census)
* ETO steals horse & wagon in Broome Co., NY
1881 Alice, Annie and Augusta TURNER in Suffolk with her dad Josiah MOORE: ETO in Jail, NY
1882 IGI ext Edwina Agnes Turner Osbaldeston 30 Jan 1882 Manhattan
1883 Edwin Julian b Mar 1883, NY
1884 Geneva b June 1884, NY
1885
1886 Normandy/ie b July 1886 NY
1887 ETO naturalized 16 Sept 1887, NY
1888 Francis b June 1888 NY; Annie mabel (Annie Pratt's dau) leaves home to marry F Knowles.
1889
1890 Alberta Born June 1890 NY,; NY Directory has Osbaldeston massagers Grin
1891
1892
1893 ETO accused of Child Abuse ...in newspapers
1894
1895 ETO and Louise Weiss arrested Montreal, Canada
1896 Mascot Louise Osbaldeston born Lake Titus, NY d/o ETO and Louise
1897
1898 Mrs Ethel J Osbaldeston and Kids leave UK 5 nov , arrive NY 12 Nov 1898
1899
1900 US Census ..2x Edwins ... 1 = PENN, 1= NY
1901
1902 ETO on killing spree in Germany
1902 * ETO..passport application in PENN,
* Alice Agnes gets Naturalized,
* Geneva leaves home to marry, report in newspaper Oct 27th to say she had not been abducted, Mother notfied (not dad!)
1903 * ETO returns from Hamburg, 8 aug 1903 (to correct address in NY)
* Aug 15th 1903, Ms Lugas fearing for her life as "Prof." ETO threatens to kill her! Mrs Lugas aka Miss May is supposedly his WIFE! Mrs Lugas (with her daughter) had been housekeeper to the German guy that ETO had killed. (ETO got off the charges pleading insanity) ..this occurs 15 Aug 1903 a week after he has returned from Hamburg! could Miss May/Mrs Frank Lugus be Louise WEiss/Molzger??
1910 DR Edwin Turner leaves Southampton , arr NY on 13 June 1910
1910 US Census .. ETO, Alice, Alberta and Francis living in Manhattan .. census taken 29 April 1910, so maybe the above Dr. Edwin Turner is not "ours"
1913 * Alice Agnes leaves NY and Arrives UK 12 July 1913
* Alice Agnes leaves Southampton 10 sept 1910 arrives Ny Sept 18 , address; 218W 82nd St NY
1920 Alice living in NY with dau Ethel (who marries crazy Donald Duncan Sewart)
let me know what needs to be added ;D
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Have you seen what name Cockney Tom called him?
'a man calling himself Edward Baldiston, stated to be manager of the Turkish Baths in Melbourne, giving a long account of his experience at Constantinople, and other places in Turkey, and applying for the management of the Adelaide Turkish Baths.'
and. 'The baths in Melbourne were burnt down shortly after that, and Baldiston found his way to Adelaide, and presenting himself and wife at the baths,' it's 1866 he is talking about.
Deb If we believe Cockney Tom ETO was in Adelaide with his wife in 1866 after the Melbourne baths had burned down.
Now have we searched anywhere using that variation of his name?
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So the Julian Turner Osbadestone who died 1921 ( as per Deb) I think we can safely say he was ETO's brother who was registered as Julian Alexander Turner in Birmingham. Deb can you find him under any of his names on any earlier documents. I know you found a Canadian marriage. What I am thinking is did he go to either the US or Canada as a child with Josiah Osbaleston/James/ whatever? This might just lead us to Edwin on some missing years.
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Edwin's younger brother Francis Turner/James appears to have stayed in the Birmingam area. I have found him on 1871 and 1881 as Franci(e)s Osbaldeston, married to Sarah. On 1871 he is a basket maker and 1881 a beer house keeper. So the whole family are missing on 1861, wonder where they were?
Just checked Francis married Sarah Reeves in 1869 in Birmingham.
IGI 25 Dec 1869 St Thomas Birmingham Francis Osboldiston to Sarah Reeves.
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I have possibly found Francis in 1861, but it's a bit odd. He is Francis James age 14 born Birmingham staying with a family called Essex in Worcestershire, they are farmers in a big way they even have a governess for their children.
RG9/2088/28/21
Now didn't Josiah have Worcestershire roots?
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Well remembered ;D
Reply 122 page 9 by Trees
I now have found a public tree on A...y which has a birth 18 May 1797 Great Malvern for Joshiah Scudder Osbaldeston I have sent a message to the tree owner to see what else she can tell us .........
Trees
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Susan :)
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Yes I had a reply from the A...Ry person rather short and to the point She had not seen the birth details but had had the information from a reliable source no reply from my second message Shame I feel it was a Christening/baptism not a birth and thought she may have had a bit more and doesn't seem too interested in the sibling of her main line I am afraid I like bushy trees ;D.
H
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I too like bushy trees ;D ;D
I looked at the A......y tree no sources given ???
The Osbaldeston name appears in Tewkesbury/Cheltenham areas, not too far from Great Malvern as the crow flies.
Susan :)
Added: IGI has an extracted baptism for William Sonder Osbaldeston 7 April 1795 Great Malvern, father Wm. O mother Mary. (Think this was posted on previous thread :-\)
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I must do a quick recap but must call it a night again I was up at 6 today I'll try to be more active with this tomorrow
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Hi guys
So Sorry ...have been under pressure to get something done by tomorrow ... There is quite a bit on Julian T O.
Edwin was bc 1838 and Julian 1860 ...is it still possible that they are brothers :-\
deb .........under pressure >:(
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Just hallucinating here with thoughts flowing ...
I notice throughout all of this that there is reference to basket making, hawkers and journermen in earlier censuses ... having had travellers in my family ...those occupations remind me of travellers ...although the 'posh' names are not customary with Travellers ....
as I said ...just hallucinating ;D ;D ;D :P
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I can see where your coming from but where does the name Osbaldeston come from its not an occupational name nor a "son of" is it a place name ston on the end sounds that it could be we have tygeston near here and Laleston Isn't there a site where you can see where the name has prevailed over the deades it may lead us to a clue for example my Dunsbys started in Dunsby and were dyers the village ofDunsby was full of wodes men in the doomsday book
umm one to check on in the morning goodnight Deb hope you met the dead line we met ours with half hour to spare ;D
Trees
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Deb when you come online.
Whatever Julian Osbaldeston said about his date of birth if, and I am sure myself we are correct, he was the Julian Alexander Turner born in Birmingham then he was baptised on 21/1/1855. His sister Ann Maria baptised with him was born 1853.
Now Mary Ann Turner was baptised 1816 that would make her approaching 40 when Julian was born so no problem there.
We need if possible to find out where (and if) he qualified as a doctor.
You said there was an obit. in an American Doctors publication? Does that give details of where he studied?
What I am trying to establish is as the only family member I can find on 1861 census is possibly Francis had the rest of the family already gone to the USA? I know Edwin was back by 1862 but where was he in 1861? Not fighting the Crimean war that had finished, I doubt in Turkry learning about the Turkish baths, so was he hiding somewhere in the UK or had he gone with Josiah, Mary Ann and the 2 youngest children to the USA and then returned soon after?
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;D ;D ;D I might just have found Edwin in 1861, it needs a lot more work which I will do later on today, but if it is him he is using another alias, but he is in the Royal Navy.
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What I am trying to establish is as the only family member I can find on 1861 census is possibly Francis
I also found a good candidate for Frederick "James" in 1861 on the other thread, at reply #60:
"The eldest son in 1851 is Frederick. In 1861 he's a 28 yr old unmarried Book Carter b Birmingham, lodging with a Caroline Morrell (?) in Lady Wood, Birmingham: RG9/2129/66/37."
Anna
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Ooops Sorry I forgot you had found Frederick in 1861. It does look like the family had scattered by 1861, it's just where had they all gone to.
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I wonder if Frederick stuck with the surname James? There is this marriage in Birmingham in 1863.
Frederick James
Spouse: EMMA BATES
09 NOV 1863 All Saints, Birmingham, Warwick, England
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Hope this works
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I think we can discount that marriage I found, they are in Kenilworth and I can trace that Frederick James back to 1841 in Kenilworth ( Emma was living in Birmingham in 1861 which would explain the marriage there) So where did Frederick go after 1861? Another mystery.
Trees yes that tree is good ;D ;D ;D
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Edwin in 1861, what I have found using the Christian name and place of birth is an Edwin BROOKS age 24 ( well 2 years out) in the Royal Navy serving on HMS Agamemnon which was on census night at Suda Bay Crete.
Ref is RG9/4433/72/16.
Next to Edwin's name as his occupation is ' 2 Cap Fore Top' I have put a thread on the armed forces board asking if anyone knows what that means.
At the moment I can't see him on any other census so I am thinking he is a possible for Edwin, he does at times mention the Royal Navy, saying he was in Malta, a possible stopping off point for the Eastern Mediterranean and Turkey, well Crete isn't that far away from Turkey
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My sister is not sure how far back the records held at Yatala Gaol in South Australia go, but she'll find out when she can. She only works 3 days a week, and won't be there again till Friday.........
I've been searching online and on disk for any sign of either ETO or Annie Pratt, but other than the birth in Victoria, I can't find anything.
Dee
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Morning all
Re Julian Turner Osbaldeston:
Directory of deceased American physicians
Julian T. Osbaldeston
DOB 25 Dec 1859, Birmingham
died; 21 Aug 1921, Chicago, IL
Type Practice: Allopath
Practice Specialities: Chicago, IL, Aug 17, 1911
Licenses: IL, 1902
Practice Dates Places: Chicago, IL, Aug 17, 1911
Medical School: Michigan College of Medicine and Surgery, Detroit, 1901, (G)
Education: Birmingham, England, South Africa, United States, common school, Business College, Young Men's Christian Assn
Cause Of Death: injuries, accident, automobile;
Cook County also has his death reg under Osbaldistone
Julian marries Margaret Close in Canada and then according to IGI an Anna Schwalb
Marriage;
Julian Turner Osbaldeston = Margaret Close on 13 Nov 1885, Carlton, Ontario
30yrs, b Birmingham
Age: 30 , bc 1855
occ; Physician
Father Name: Chas C P S T Osbaldiston
Mother Name: Mary Ann Turner Osbaldiston
Spouse Name: Margaret Close
35, bc 1850, Merricksville, Ont
dad= Dennis Callins , mum = Margaret Watson
IGI extracted;
Julian osbaldeston = Anna K Schwalb
30 APR 1890, Cook co., Illinois
1910 US
Cook Co. , IL
Chicago City
Indiana Ave.
Julia (sic) T Osbaldeston head, 50, mar (1st marriage :-\) married 21yrs, b England, parents English, Immigrated 1884, naturalized , occ; physician
Anna S wife, 64 ( ::) ) , first marriage, g Germany, parents German, imm 1888, occ trained nurse
NY City Directory 1890 (see previous thread)
where the whole family is Massage people there is also
Osbaldeston Julian T. massage, 721 Sixth av. so we had thought he was a son but could be ETO's brother.
still looking for him in Canada and his passenger list/Naturalization
deb
morning deetwin :)
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Deb Thanks for that.
Does anyone want proof that lying is in the genes? ;D ;D ;D ;D
So Julian is saying he immigrated in 1884, yet we know he married in Canada in 1885 and if I am reading all of that correctly, he attended medical school in Detroit in 1901 yet he was already saying he was a physican when he married Margaret in 1885?
So where was he between his baptism in 1855 and marriage in 1885?
He says educated in Birmingham, so why can't we find him on any census, he was old enough to be at school by 1961.
I don't know about South Africa, that is one of the few countries that Edwin doesn't claim to have visited. Also I have a feeling, I will check it out that South Africa was all different colonies around the 1860/1880 period.
Onwards and upwards.
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I thought so, the obvious place to enter what is now South Africa would be Cape Town, no Suez Canal then, so the west coast easiest to reach.
So Cape Colony, 'The Cape Colony subsequently remained in the British Empire until the formation of the Union of South Africa in 1910,' British had been there since late 1700's. ( from Wiki) so to call the country South Africa, was he making things up around the 1911 date when he started practising in Chicago?
I don't know if any information is available about immigration to Cape Colony, another dig around.
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Hi Jay... ;D ;D ;D
Found him in 1900 age has changed slightly from being born in 1855 , as per his 1st marriage ::) and it seems as though he might have a new wife ..see her age!
1900
Indiana Ave , Cook Co, IL
Julian Osabaldeston b Dec 1858, 41, married 11 years (21 crossed out!), Physician,
HANNAH wife 47, b Germany, Jan 1853, married 11 yrs, occ Doc??? doesn't say doctor looks like Doctress ? ::)
deb ...looking for more
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Deb he might turnout to have been as big a rogue as his brother ;D ;D ;D ;D
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LOL ....
Can't see JTO on 1920 ..census started on 1 jan ...each enumerator dated their schedules ... so can't find him or Hannah.
BUt Guess who is living in Indiana Ave, Chicago in 1920?? ..................
;D
1920
Indiana Ave, Chicago
Frank and Olive Osbaldeston
he is 30 b NY, CORRESPONDENT
Olive is 26, b Wisconsin, STENOGRAPHER
maybe ETO hired his son to do his stories ...LOL
deb ;D
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By 1930 Frank and Olive are in Vickers Ave, he is President of Dried fruits and worth $12 000 , This is where the brother-in-la is living with them ... John E Twiner
... the more I look at the image the more it looks like TURNER ... who's obit mentioned the brother John E Turner when all the other siblings were Osbaldeston? was it Geneva's ?
deb
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Deb Well keep it in the family ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Deb BTW I think the 1900 and 1910 census returns for Julian showing his wife as Anna/Hannah are the same wife, I know her age fluctuates but if Julian was filling the form in well......
Deb it was Geneva's obit I think that mentioned the brother.
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Deb I also think that John E is Edwin, he is the only one we haven't found a marriage for, he was born 1883 and Geneva died 1954 so is there any way of finding a death for him after 1954? I guess though if he continued to use the name Turner it will be very difficult to find him.
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arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ;D
okay ... what about this?
In 1910 we have ETO and Alice Agnes living in NY, Manhattan, with their kids;
Alberta 18
Francis 21
BUT
also in 1910
Rochester, Munroe Co., NY
JOHN E TURNER head 25, mar for 3years b NY, parents= Scot/English :-\, occ; private family chauffeur.
Jean wife, 23 b NY, parents = Scot/English
Donald , son 2 b NY,
FRANK OSBALDESTON, 21 Boarder, b NY, dad= Scot/english, mum= English, occ; Bookkeeper, genl. office
::) :-X
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Must be the same chap enumerated twice, mustn't it, Deb?
On a slightly different point, I think I have identified a child of Louise Osbaldeston VESLY, namely an Alexandra DE VESELY. Alexandra seems to have married a Herbert Potter BEARCE, and in 1937 they announced the birth of a son in the New York Times. The child is described in the birth announcement as a "great-grandson of the late Lord Edwin Osbaldeston, surgeon to Queen Victoria". ;D. (It also describes Alexandra as "the former Miss Alexandra de Vesely of Vienna" - not clear whether this is Vienna, N.Y. or the Austrian Vienna).
Googling the child's name (I won't post it in case he is still living) suggests that he was one of three children born to the couple, and that he became a US congressman...
ETA The New York Times for 6 Feb 1935 carries a piece about a secret wedding between Herbert Potter BEARCE and Alexandra DE VESELY*, in which (from the fragment I can see) she appears to be described as "the daughter of the late Count de Vesely of Czechoslovakia, who was killed while leading his regiment on the Italian front during the World War" :o.
*Alexandra's name in the marriage announcement might in fact be given as DE VESELY DURING, but I can't tell whether the DURING bit is really her name or a glitch with the extract I'm allowed to see. I tried to pay the $3.50 to see the article in full, but the NYT website will not allow "United Kingdom" as a valid "country" so has rejected my efforts to pay them money >:(
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Deb ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
Can we believe anything ETO says?
Is there a marriage for John E to Jean?
and parent's nationalities? depends what stories ETO had told them ;D ;D ;D
avm ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D priceless
just came in to see how things are going what a beauty well done avm I'm trying to find the New Zealand papers NS says there are reports of ETO in 1876 there
H
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I bet Alexandra and her mother are lurking somewhere in the USA in 1930, it will just be where and what names they are using.
Trees It's the Canterbury NZ police gazette ETO is mentioned in but it isn't online for 1876 it's in Christchurch library.
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Blimey ... LORD Edwin surgeon to the QUEEN!!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D you've gotta love this guy!
okay ..
Donald was born 31 Mar 1908 (as per death index).
I see him in 1930 with his mum, Jean (who says she is married) and his wife Ruth.
I cannot find his birth!
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Edwin in 1861, what I have found using the Christian name and place of birth is an Edwin BROOKS age 24 ( well 2 years out) in the Royal Navy serving on HMS Agamemnon which was on census night at Suda Bay Crete.
Ref is RG9/4433/72/16.
Next to Edwin's name as his occupation is ' 2 Cap Fore Top' I have put a thread on the armed forces board asking if anyone knows what that means.
At the moment I can't see him on any other census so I am thinking he is a possible for Edwin, he does at times mention the Royal Navy, saying he was in Malta, a possible stopping off point for the Eastern Mediterranean and Turkey, well Crete isn't that far away from Turkey
I've got an answer to my question from the Armed Forces board. It's 2nd captain fore top, same as petty officer so I know now where to look on the NA site, but I can't get on to it at the moment
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On a slightly different point, I think I have identified a child of Louise Osbaldeston VESLY, namely an Alexandra DE VESELY. Alexandra seems to have married a Herbert Potter BEARCE, and in 1937 they announced the birth of a son in the New York Times. The child is described in the birth announcement as a "great-grandson of the late Lord Edwin Osbaldeston, surgeon to Queen Victoria". ;D.
Royal Archives anyone ??? ::) ;D ;D
Susan :)
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If you search for Edwin Turner there are some interesting things on
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/
Particularly in 1876 there was a reference an Edwin Turner, Hydropathic Practitioner, who seems to have been at Waiwera. Then later that same year he turns up as Edwin Turner alias Osbaldiston, aka Dr. Turner, who had lectured in Christchurch. He had completed his term of imprisonment for an earlier offence but then been immediately re-arrested within a week for stealing a coat. He then escaped from Addington Gaol in August 1876, was recaptured and charged in Sep 1876 (described as Dr Edwin Turner/Edwin J. Osbaldiston).
Searching on Waiwera, Turner, Hydropathic shows that he was at the Waiwera hot springs at least in January 1876.
There's also a February 1876 article from these same keywords that talks of a "Mr E. G. Turner", late surgeon in the Royal Mail Service (or so he says!) . Just searching on "Turner" and "Hydropathic" pulls up a few things in 1876, including one in the Evening Post. TUESDAY, JUNE 6, 1876, which says he was "formerly of Bombay"
http://0-www.aucklandcity.govt.nz.www.elgar.govt.nz/dbtw-wpd/passengers/passenger.html
- shows a Dr. Edwin Turner arriving 1 Jan 1876, with his daughter, on the Mikato. (This may be the "Mikado")
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I'm going through those papers too I love the way he wasn't evading arrest on yet another jail break but having gone "home" to see his daughter and finding the house surrounded by police he decided to drew them off so he could double back and spend some time with her before giving himself up He didn't hear the police man call to him but climbed int the hedge or shelter!
H
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Is there a way of searching old Australian papers?
H
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Trees Australian newspapers
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,327927.0.html
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Hi
Thanks, Jorose for the link!
In one of those nespaper reports it states that a man name Osbaldiston stole jewels from the prince. 16 Nove 1867, Adelaide
The next mention is 21 November 1867 , where it states that a Mr ENGLAND OSBALDISTON, "tried to hang himself with his braces this morning. He was discovered in time and placed in a strait-jacket"
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That man knew every trick in the book, I'm surprised he didn't write the book ;D ;D ;D
This is the prince they refer to.
http://adbonline.anu.edu.au/biogs/A040127b.htm
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A person named Osbaldiston, who arrived here lately from Melbourne blah blah was employed as an assistant for the lecturer on mesmorism, known as Dr Carr...got arrested ...blah blah ........... mesmorism.... no wonder people believed him , they were all mesmorized ;D
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Many thanks for those very useful links and all the other remarkable research I've had my head in the newspapers most of the day some interesting some amazing items its all slowly building the picture of the maddest man you can imagine
Great so now I think I've got As many newspapers as i can find ooh no I haven't i I've forgotten the UK ones surely Queen Victoria's surgeon got the occasional mention after all he was a noble chap ...er ...wasn't he Will look in case
But what happened to Ann and afterwards what happened to little Annie Mabel while her dad was inspecting the penal facilities of the world? Did we ever find Alice Agnes' death and was there a marriage for Louise Weiss as he claimed in 1890? Is it wort fining a marriage to Mr LUGAS?LUCAS?
Trees
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Hi H
I have been struggling all day to find immigration records or anything else on Julian Turner O .... nothing. Ho did they get around...where did the money come from for all this travel. UK to Canada to USA etc.
It's such a pity that the 1890 US census is fragmented. It may have solved some of the questions we have .... :-\
Cannot find a death for Alice Agnes ...unless she went back to the UK to die. Have also looked for the Lugas/lucas peeps and the Vesely's with no luck either .... I swear I am going to dream about them sooner or later ..as it is , if I am in the car or wherever , I am churning the story around in my head! :-[ ::)
deb
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I have to report that my searching today at SAGHS turned up absolutely nothing. I managed to book a computer for an hour, and did as many different searches of the South Australian Police Gazettes as I could.
I searched the years between 1866 and 1876, and I searched by Turner, Osbald*, Edwin only, and just using the term murder in the search engine. Unless he was using yet another name, there was no mention.
Didn't think to search using "Theft" but expect there would have been too many results to wade through anyway.
One point.....there were absolutely no results for the search of "Edwin" until 1870, and no murders before that year either. So I am wondering how much detail was in the earlier Gazettes. (I know that once you find a name and then use the microfiche to look at the actual page, you can get some amazing information from 1880 onwards.......)
There was no murder committed by an Edwin.....just one by an Edward Wilson in 1872. :-\
Dee
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Hi all,
SA Police Gazette information here. Lovely description of the man ;D
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,378807.0.html
Cheers Kris :)
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Thanks for trying so hard Dee much appreciated I do hope he didn't kill Ann but most of the stories have a nod to truth so I wonder if he tried to go back to Ann when he got out of Jail in Oz and she had seen the lightand refused to have him back so did he kill her hide the body and carry off the child. Though I don't think Ann was squeaky clean, the Cockney Tom tale sort of implements her she must have known about 2 cart loads of loot!
krisesjoint has found a two entries from th e SA police Gazette and one from the Canterbury Police Gazette posted this morning on Australia "Help in finding a death" The Caterbury one has a good description
red post hi kriss
Trees
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Morning all
Re Julian Turner Osbaldeston:
Directory of deceased American physicians
Julian T. Osbaldeston
DOB 25 Dec 1859, Birmingham
died; 21 Aug 1921, Chicago, IL
Type Practice: Allopath
Practice Specialities: Chicago, IL, Aug 17, 1911
Licenses: IL, 1902
Practice Dates Places: Chicago, IL, Aug 17, 1911
Medical School: Michigan College of Medicine and Surgery, Detroit, 1901, (G)
Education: Birmingham, England, South Africa, United States, common school, Business College, Young Men's Christian Assn
Cause Of Death: injuries, accident, automobile;
Cook County also has his death reg under Osbaldistone
Julian marries Margaret Close in Canada and then according to IGI an Anna Schwalb
Marriage;
Julian Turner Osbaldeston = Margaret Close on 13 Nov 1885, Carlton, Ontario
30yrs, b Birmingham
Age: 30 , bc 1855
occ; Physician
Father Name: Chas C P S T Osbaldiston
Mother Name: Mary Ann Turner Osbaldiston
Spouse Name: Margaret Close
35, bc 1850, Merricksville, Ont
dad= Dennis Callins , mum = Margaret Watson
IGI extracted;
Julian osbaldeston = Anna K Schwalb
30 APR 1890, Cook co., Illinois
1910 US
Cook Co. , IL
Chicago City
Indiana Ave.
Julia (sic) T Osbaldeston head, 50, mar (1st marriage :-\) married 21yrs, b England, parents English, Immigrated 1884, naturalized , occ; physician
Anna S wife, 64 ( ::) ) , first marriage, g Germany, parents German, imm 1888, occ trained nurse
NY City Directory 1890 (see previous thread)
where the whole family is Massage people there is also
Osbaldeston Julian T. massage, 721 Sixth av. so we had thought he was a son but could be ETO's brother.
still looking for him in Canada and his passenger list/Naturalization
deb
morning deetwin :)
It facinates me that 2 brothers born 17 years apart would both make out they were doctors. Julian on his Ontario marriage ( 1885 ) describes himself as a physician. I found the Ontario Medical Register online and I searched the available dates ie. 1878, 1888, 1892 and 1902 and no sign of him being registered under Osbaldeston or Turner. I wonder why? ;D ;D ;D
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That's great,,Kris.....
But why didn't that come up with the wild card search? ???
Or don't the Police Gazettes accept a wild card?
I've just had a call from my sister. She got in touch with the person who has access to all the old Yatala Gaol and Adelaide Gaol records.......and absolutely nothing showed up for him in those records. :-\
Dee
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Back to Julian he claims to have graduated from Michigan College of Medicine in 1901. Their records aren't online but they are here.
http://www.reuther.wayne.edu/staff
( That's the contact us page)
Trees do you think sending an E mail to them with a short expanation they would help us to see if Julian did actually qualify? mind you he would have been in his 40's by that time.
Dee we will unravel this, my thoughts are that if the report that he was taken away in a strait jacket are correct he was perhaps in an asylum rather than a prison, but he didn't want to admit it later on as once he said that no one would believe anything he said.
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I had no trouble with the police gazettes at the Library today Dee. Looks like we are both in town at the same time. I don't think there are any murder charges, at least not here. No record of Ann. It just does not fit. serving 30 years and then ticket of leave ::) in that time period - sounds all wrong to me. I see Trees is wondering if he may have killed his wife and gotten away with it. Guess anything is possible.
Also curious as to 6 year old child in his company. Did someone make a mistake here or was it not his daughter he was seen with. He was trying to borrow money in Melbourne, so I presume he knew these people. Perhaps this was not his daughter. The difference between a 6 year old and a 10 year old should be obvious and these records do not state sex. Do you have his travel out of Australia to see if he did in fact travel with his daughter and no wife?
I had wondered about NZ but it appears his crimes there were also theft related, not murder.
Doesn't Trees have the prison records? Yatala records are held at State Records, not too far from where I am at the mo. It appears it was for theft so not sure how helpful they will be, though there could be a photo.
Cheers Kris :)
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We were both at SAGHS together today Kris? ???
Don't tell me..... :-\ ;D
There were some unidentified bodies came up when I searched just using the term "murder".
The chap my sister contacted today has access to the original Yatala and Adelaide Gaol records, and reported there was nothing. But it might be worth you checking it out if you can....... a second pair of eyes can sometimes pick up a variation.......
Dee
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Kriss I have been taking another long look at the Destitute Asylum I am sorry :-[ youare right not to dismiss this as my Ann PRATT, I had dismissed her as the child with her was a Francis Anne BUT looking at her age she was under 7 now if she was conceived in 1873-1876 when we know ET was out and about in Australia she could be Ann's child and as you pointed out Charles features prominently in the story --NS has added that ET was registered as son of Charles Pye Turner his grandfather and he claims him as such later - so is it my Ann ooh it looks very likely so he gives her a babe and absconds with the older child Francis was probably born after he had left How can we find a birth record for Francis Anne PRATT/Turner Osbaldeston born Australia 1873-1877 (he went back to Melbourne and was trying to borrow money1876)
H
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But if this all makes sense what has happened to Annie Mabel ??? ???
Does the reference to Charles on the Destitute record mean he too was asking for help? if so why no mention of AM if he has taken her Oh dear this is a huge mystery
No body a missing child a possible 2nd daughter
Trees blowing in the wind ;D
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Trees don't forget the step daughter with Alice in 1881 she fits Annie Mabel
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OK jaywit I'll send an E mail off
There is one newspaper report where he admitted being in a mental Asylum but in Canada so you may be on the right trail
I'll try to find the newspaper report
Yes of course the DA card is 1885 well after AM is with Alice ooo are we on to something here
Sorry Arran I think it was you who doubted if Ann was not the riht one after all
H
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Hi Trees,
Sorry but you really do need to move on from the destitute asylum. It is not your Ann. Annie's husband Charles had deserted her and gone to Melbourne. The records stated that Frances was an infant (1885) In fact she was born in March 1885 to Charles Pratt and Annie Taylor who married in 1883. At that time she was aged 28 father Robert TAYLOR. It is not your Ann.
Kris :)
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Hi everyone :)
Have been searching for an hour for passenger lists......... nothing on Alice Agnes, Annie and Augusta(Ethel) going back to UK in 1880/1, nothing on Julian Alexander Turner O, either.
will keep looking.
deb with coffee ;D
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Thanks Kriss that really does lay that one out I was just desperate to find she hadn't died
Back to the drawing board
H
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latest from NS
Louisa daughter of ETO and Louisa Weiss
Her real name was Mascot Louise Osbaldeston she was born at mascot, Lake Titus 9 Aug 1896 became a prima ballerina she says search for Mascot Osbaldiston here www.footnote.com. for another beauty she had 4 husbands
2 of Mascots daughters are still alive so be careful not to mention their names :)
Trees
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Hi
I had seen her on a passenger list and thought it a strange name ...
Mascot Osbaldiston
ship ; Adriatic
age;18
DOB Aug 9, 1896
POB Camp Mascot
Depart, Liverpool Oct 14, 1914
arrive NY Oct 22, 1914
address; ParloraCo ...can't make it out! :-\
will look for more :)
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1920
New York
Manhattan
65th street
Louie Vesely mar 30 b Bohemia dancer, imm =1910, permanent res.
Mascot wife 22 b NY, father= b England, Mother = b Germany , dancer
Mascot dau 4 b Penn
deb ;D
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aha
passenger list
Louise LUCAS 50 grandmother, mar, passport # ****/ by marriage, address 200E 67th st
Mascot Vesely grandchild, 9, b dec 23, 1916, Penn
Port of Departure: Bremen, Germany
arrived, NY: 11 Jul 1925
okay ...Mrs Lugas/Lucas was the one in fear of her life from ETO!
eeekkk ...need to get this all staright in my head ...will amend timeline
deb
added from timeline;
more for 1903;
Aug 15th 1903, Ms Lugas fearing for her life as "Prof." ETO threatens to kill her! Mrs Lugas aka Miss May is supposedly his WIFE! Mrs Lugas (with her daughter) had been housekeeper to the German guy that ETO had killed. (ETO got off the charges pleading insanity) ..this occurs 15 Aug 1903 a week after he has returned from Hamburg! could Miss May/Mrs Frank Lugus be Louise WEiss/Molzger??
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Hi
I had seen her on a passenger list and thought it a strange name ...
Mascot Osbaldiston
ship ; Adriatic
age;18
DOB Aug 9, 1896
POB Camp Mascot
Depart, Liverpool Oct 14, 1914
arrive NY Oct 22, 1914
address; ParloraCo ...can't make it out! :-\
will look for more :)
guess whos on the same ship/same dates etc
Louis Vesely 29, SINGLE, DANCER, b Russia, nationality Bohemiam, b abt 1885, last permanent address, London;
they must have met on the ship , maybe :-\
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On a slightly different point, I think I have identified a child of Louise Osbaldeston VESLY, namely an Alexandra DE VESELY. Alexandra seems to have married a Herbert Potter BEARCE, and in 1937 they announced the birth of a son in the New York Times. The child is described in the birth announcement as a "great-grandson of the late Lord Edwin Osbaldeston, surgeon to Queen Victoria". ;D. (It also describes Alexandra as "the former Miss Alexandra de Vesely of Vienna" - not clear whether this is Vienna, N.Y. or the Austrian Vienna).
Googling the child's name (I won't post it in case he is still living) suggests that he was one of three children born to the couple, and that he became a US congressman...
ETA The New York Times for 6 Feb 1935 carries a piece about a secret wedding between Herbert Potter BEARCE and Alexandra DE VESELY*, in which (from the fragment I can see) she appears to be described as "the daughter of the late Count de Vesely of Czechoslovakia, who was killed while leading his regiment on the Italian front during the World War" :o.
*
So Alexandra's father died in WW1? How come he was in Manhatten in 1920?
The only Italian front I can think of anywhere near Manhatten would be the Mafia, hope Louis didn't tangle with them ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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from the timeline;
1895 ETO and Louise Weiss arrested Montreal, Canada
1896 Mascot Louise Osbaldeston born d/o ETO and Louise
Louise was kept in jail ... so there has to be a border crossing somewhere
OH MY .......
1920
New York
Manhattan
65th street
Louie Vesely mar 30 b Bohemia dancer, imm =1910, permanent res.
Mascot wife 22 b NY, father= b England, Mother = b Germany , dancer
Mascot dau 4 b Penn
also at 65th street , actually they are NEXT DOOR
Frank W Lucas 44, imm 1892, b Germany, father b Messonia?, Mum=Holland
LOUISE 45, imm 1891, b Germany, Father = Wisconsin, mother = Germany
we have found Mrs F W LUcas ...supposed wife of ETO!!!!! ;D ;D
deb
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Hi Jay ;D ;D ;D
So Louie/Louis Vesely, the dancer, was a Count !!!!
he must have been one heck of a dancer ;D ;D ;D
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Deb One of the oldest cons in the book, the fake Eastern European nobility Count this Count that.......... by the time he died he was probably the former king of **********
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;D ;D ;D ;D
Okay another passenger list ... In 1920 Frank Lucas is a Cook/Cterer (sorry forgot to put that in)
anyway
Ship: St Paul
Frank William Lucas , 40, caterer, German
Arrived; 16 May 1915 NY
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1875
depart: Liverpool, England , may 8th 1915
Last perm res. = USA, Philadelphia
Name and address of relative from whence you came:
WIFE,
5 Aberdeen House
Kenton St, Russell Square
London
so was Louise and daugher Mascot in UK in 1911?
deb
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1911 I have found a MAY Louise Lucas in Fulham....
Remember ETO called her Miss May!
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I checked the Aberdeen House address and they weren't there. I'll list the occupants, with this lot you never know.
MORGAN, PHOEBE ETHELS HEAD WIDOW F 29 PRIVATE MEANS BALLGHACH IRELAND RESIDENT
UMDUN, WILLIAM CYRIL UNCLE WIDOWER M 54 COLONEL ARMY PAY DEPARTMENT CO DUBLIN IRELAND RESIDENT
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ahhh okay! Thanks for checking .....
If only we could find all these marriages etc...
need to update timeline ....
just thinking out loud ....
ETO and Louise arrested in Canada 1895, ETO escapes , Louise is jailed but is somehow, having Mascot in 1896 ... did Louise go back to ETO after she was released or is the baby someone elses?
Do I make sense? :-X :-\ ::)
added ...although there is that other edwin Turner (physician) in Penn in 1900 with wife Alice and daughter Louise!
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Deb I think this is the May Louise Lucas on 1911, this is her marriage to Reginald Lucas.
May Louise Elliott 1901 West Ham Essex, Greater London
Reginald Lucas 1901 West Ham Essex, Greater London
So I think it is just a coincidence
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So Mascot Louise was born 9/8/1896 at Lake Titus, it's very close to the Canadian boarder and my guess is they had just left Canada and were making their way back to NY.
Another thought Frank Lucas may have Anglicized his name but if he was obviously German he wouldn't have been welcome on the UK in 1915, so he may have made a quick exit back to NY.
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Deb A bit more for your time line. It was December 1880 when ETO stole the horse and wagon in Broome County NY.
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Done! :D
Do you think I should add all the other info ie; The Vesely/Lucas etc info? Or will that make it TMI? ;D
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Deb maybe see what Trees wants.
I still can't get my head round the period after Dec 1880.
April 3rd. 1881 Alice,Augusta and Annie Mabel are in Suffolk. January 30th 1882 Edwina is born in NY.
So Alice must have left Suffolk very soon after census night ( and I think she would have arrived in England Dec/Jan after ETO's little escapade).
So did she know ETO would be waiting for her in NY. Did he know she was coming back?
Something around that period just doesn't add up, unless ETO was with Alice and keeping out of sight and they went back to NY together.
Problem is that if ETO was wanted by the police they could have used any name.
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I am wondering when he was in the mental asylum in Canada (cant find the newspaper report eith that on yet0
i am still puzzled as to Annie mabel we know she was with Alice in 1881 but where was she when he was in jail in NZ someone must have looked after her she was 10 but must have looked younger remember the sighting of ETO with a 6 year old child in melbourne was that Annie mabel or another child
There are still many grey areas for my Ann and her daughter
time line
1867 sentenced for 7 yrs hard labour freedom 13 jan 1873(Krisesjoint found this this morning)
1876 jan 1 ETO and Annie Mabel on passenger list arriving Aukland
1876 oct Melbourne with 6 yr old girl was this Annie Mabel she should be 10?
Yes please Debcan you add the new data on the Vesely/lucas it gives a nice quick reference makes it easier to follow Many thanks
H
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Please could someone remind me - do we see Augusta again after the 1881 Suffolk census?
Anna
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Trees I wouldn't be too worried by the age gap in that newspaper report. Journalism then was more of an art than a science. Say the reporter forgot to make a note of her age. There was no way of checking his story, no telephones etc. so what would he do, he would guess how old she was.
I think the time for something happening to Annie is Aug 1873 to Dec 1875 and I would say nearer the latter date. He could have been making a quick escape if he had done something to Annie, or she could have become fed up with his carrying on and left him.
avm Yes she becomes Ethel ( I think)
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Hi
We know that ETO = AA Moore May 1880, NY
Alice states she immigrated 1879
1880 ETO arrested in NY
1881 Alice in UK with Auguata (6months) and Annie Mabel
Alice had to have had a passport (UK one) as she as not naturalized until errr 1903 (can't remember).
I wonder if her passport had been changed into the name Turner yet? I know I have searched under both names.
Alice could have already been pregnant with Edwina when setting off.
We never see Augusta again. .... Edwina born 1882 hich is the year of birth that Ethel always gives ... Is ethel actually Edwina?
deb
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Deb you could travel the world without a passport at that time, only the wealthy and well travelled had them.
Was there a birth registration for Edwina? Edwina would have been concieved in May 1881 if she was born at the end of January 1882. If we are sure there was a girl, whatever she called herself, born January 1882 then ETO or someone was around in May 1881.
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There was a birth registration for Edwina - the IGI entry for 30 Jan 1882 does seem to be extracted from 1882 Manhattan birth registrations (I've checked the batch number).
I've been mulling over a theory that this birth registration was a fraudulent one for the benefit of Augusta (in order to get a birth certificate for her) and that Augusta/Edwina/Ethel are all the same person, but perhaps that's a sign I've been on this thread too long!
Anna
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Hi Jay
thanks for that info on passports ...didn't know that :-\
Edwina's birth is IGI extracted. I had wonder if it was her christening but it says birth; Edwina Agnes O.
Edwina Agnes Turner Osbaldeston d/o ETO and Alice Agnes Moore
30 JAN 1882 Manhattan
I wonder why the other kids aren't on IGI?
deb
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If we could only find when Alice went back to NY that I think would be a big help towards working out if Augusta and Edwina were seperate people.
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I wonder why the other kids aren't on IGI?
Because not all of the records have been transcribed - see this page (scroll down):
http://www.genealogygeneral.bravehost.com/USA/NY/NYVITAL2.HTML
Anna :)
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It's so strange that I can't find Alice's incoming passenger list in 1879 ...she had no reason to lie about her name and age etc as she had not met ETO yet and so didn't know what was in store for her UNLESS ...she went to Australia and met him there!
deb ...quickly running out of ideas.
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Well Augusta was born October 1880 and ETO and Alice had married May 1880, so Augusta would have been conceived around January 1880. So they were a couple then. Odd if Alice went to NY in 1879 and immediately got together with ETO. I can see a country girl would easily fall for his tales of derring do, but ETO wouldn't have married her without another reason than her pregnancy. Unless he just wanted someone to look after Annie Mabel. Maybe that was it Annie Mabel would be in her teens, an age she would want a mother figure.
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From Insolvent Debtors papers held at Gloucestershire Archives
15th/16th November 1841
Josiah Scudder Osbaldeston late of Scotland Cottage Gloucr Road Cheltenham Travelling Bookseller an Insolvt Dr brot up to take the benefit of the Act. Adjudged entitled to the benefit of the Act an ordd to be Discharged forthwith.
Looking at other entries after the words "brought up" had name of gaol they were brought up from!
There is no record of him in Gloucester Gaol in 1841 reference the list of prisoners on remand awaiting sentence, I looked thrugh the film in case he had been missed. According to the London Gazette of 7th July 1841 Josiah was in Gloucester Gaol.
Couldn't find any baptisms of Turner/Osbaldestons in St. Marys Cheltenham.
Susan :)
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Susan Reading between the lines he was discharged from bankruptcy, so he had paid his debts? Maybe he had previously said that given the opportunity he could pay the debts and he had done. I need to check details of what procedures there were at that time
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Well his first bankruptcy was early on in the life if this act.
'In 1831 a special court of bankruptcy was established, consisting of six commissioners with four judges as a court of review, and official assignees attached to the court for the purpose of getting in the distributing the bankrupt's assets. Non-traders were originally excluded from the bankruptcy court, and a special court called the "court for relief of insolvent debtors" was instituted for their benefit, in which relief from the liability to imprisonment could be obtained on surrender of their property, but they were not discharged from their debts, subsequently-acquired property remaining liable. Both of these courts were subsequently abolished, non-traders were permitted to obtain the benefit of the bankruptcy laws, including a discharge, and in 1869 the system of official assignees was swept away, and a new court of bankruptcy created.'
So 'late of Scotland Cottage' had he given his property up? ' Subsequently acquired property remaining liable' could be why he moved away from Cheltenham and changed his name, so that the court couldn't find him and any new property he obtained.
I'm not a legal expert but it's my take on it.
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That is very interesting I already have a page on my web site about a chap in debtors prison this will all be useful additional detail and it will be good to have a second subject to discuss there A big thank you for this both
H
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At his trial reported 5 Sep 1876 in the Timaru Herald he says his child was in a house in Christchurch surrounded by police So does that mean she was in some sort of welfare care and can we find any records of children in care at that time what did they do with children whose parants were in prison then?Should I ask that on the NZ board? He had apparently been in jail for a month before this How far is Kaiapoi from Christchurch ? he says he had been at the house where Annie Mabel was on the Monday, the trial was Saturday and he was picked up two miles from Kaiapoi would this make sense?
Trees
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How far is Kaiapoi from Christchurch ?
Apparently, 17 km:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiapoi
Anna :)
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As far as I can see from the record of insolvent debtors Josiah was only bankrupt once, 1841. The papers cover 1833-1844.
Agree with Jaywit, he did a runner from Cheltenham and changed his name ::)
Susan :)
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I wonder where this guy fits into the picture?
26 May 1831
John Osbaldeston
Assaulting Jesse Castle at Cheltenham
Rev W Hicks, JP and J H Ollney, JP at Cheltenham.
Fined 5/- and 6/- costs.
Crime committed 19 May 1831
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Information removed due to copyright violation. See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/copyright.php for more details
RootsChat must deal with any breach of copyright by its members.
For some time the team of Copyright Editors has been removing breaches of copyright and sending detailed personal messages to the member that had posted the information. Due to the volume of posts and members this is now impractical. Messages in breach will simply be deleted and this notice posted. We apologise for any inconvenience caused but are sure you will appreciate the importance of this issue.
Now can I find him between 1831 and 1883?
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Morning all
Just remembered something. In one of the Newspaper reports where ETO had stolen someones coat (NZ or Aus ? ), supposedly his daughter was a witness .... she told the judge that he had had the coat for a while and that he had not stolen it. It went on to say that the judge did not believe her! So was ETO making her stick up for him?
deb
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Deb we know from the allegations of child cruelty later on that he perhaps wasn't the kindest of fathers and Annie Mabel in a strange country, no mother had little choice but to do what he said or no doubt he would have abandoned her or worse.
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Sportsman in a Landscape on Google Books mentions Osbaldeston
http://www.rootschat.com/links/068y/
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Hi Toni ...thanks for that ...not sure who he is
Hi Jay ... poor kids of ETO !!
Do we know when Annie Mabel Turner Osbaldeston Knowles died? I cannot find her after the 1900 US census. Geezzz I am getting frustrated :-X :-\ ;D
deb
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Deb remind me where the case with poor AM being a witness was please the case I refered to continues on as it was the one about a month later when he once more broke out If we know AM was a witness we should find out who took charge of the poor scap
H
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I think this family was sent to frustrate us, Deb!
Another tangent, then... Do we know who Kate Osbaldeston was? She sailed New York-Liverpool in 1891 (aged 18, spinster, English) and back to New York in 1892 (aged 19, spinster, citizen of England, final destination Chicago, Illinois).
NS has put a note on one of her passenger lists on Ancestry saying she's a member of a family she's researching.
Anna :)
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If you search for Edwin Turner there are some interesting things on
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/
Particularly in 1876 there was a reference an Edwin Turner, Hydropathic Practitioner, who seems to have been at Waiwera. Then later that same year he turns up as Edwin Turner alias Osbaldiston, aka Dr. Turner, who had lectured in Christchurch. He had completed his term of imprisonment for an earlier offence but then been immediately re-arrested within a week for stealing a coat. He then escaped from Addington Gaol in August 1876, was recaptured and charged in Sep 1876 (described as Dr Edwin Turner/Edwin J. Osbaldiston).
Hi Trees ... I was searching through the link Jorose gave us ..... I am not sure which report it as but it def. stated that the judgedid not believe the daughter. So she had to have been with ETO in order to go to the trial.
Hi Anna ... I have seen Kate around but have not seen that she was related.
re Geneva TO ; she married FB Miller
on the 1910 which I had found ealier they were guests at a hotel ... I have just noticed that it was his 2nd marriage ...he was 52 and she was 25 !!!! ::)
found this aswell, not sure if she is ours as date/age is out ;
MI in Carlyle
located between Rutherglan and Wahguiyah
In Loving Memory of John KNOWLES 29 12 1938 age 76
In Loving Memory of ANNIE MABEL KNOWLES 24 9 1935 age 58
I think I had found her on one census where she was with husband john F although she married a Frederick Elliot ..I could find her with a Fred husband.
Johns death age adds up to the one I found with Mabel A Knowles
deb
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Deb if the Knowles pair didn't die until the 1930's then they should be on the 1930 census ( somewhere, maybe ;D)
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Kate Osbaldeston is the daughter of Franci(e)s Osboldeston/Turner/James so Edwin's niece.
I have found her on 1881
RG11/2961/32/2
If she went to Chicago I bet she was staying with her uncle Julian Turner/Osbaldeston
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OOOOOOOOOOOOOO
I think I have found a book with ETO's photo in it
Book; Empire State Notables
Hartwell Stafford
published Oct 10, 1914
page 447, Osbaldeston, Dr. Edwin Turner
quote from the foreword:
"This book embraces within its covers the largest and
most comprehensive collection of portraits ever published
in one single volume in the world. The subjects have been chosen in the very broadest sense. They are those, who wherever born or reared, in
business or connections, in social life or in politics, are
parts of the fabric of the great Empire State. "
deb :)
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if you google the book you can flip through it !
http://www.archive.org/stream/empirestatenot00staf
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Looking at the index for the names in the book ETO's page number is different ...looks like pg 340/360 :-\
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he's on page 369
now we have a face for the name !!!!! ;D :D :o
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Brilliant, Deb!
How did you navigate to 369?
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Can we have a round of applause for Roots member sheronb?
Marriage 24th August 1862 of James Hubbard 38 bachelor cane worker living Thorp St Birmingham father John Hubbard carpenter to Mary Ann Turner 42( well a lady can be coy about her age)spinster living Thorp St father Charles Pye Turner 1st lieutenant. Witnesses Thomas Bromley and Lucy Cooper.
The witnesses on Edwin's first marriage They married 4 weeks before Edwin and Annie Pratt.
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Anna ...
when you click on the link , there are arrows on the right hand side .... click on those ...also the link that I posted takes you straight to his picture.
If you want to just google 'Empire State Notables" it will take you there
deb .....:)
clap clap for sheronb ;D
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Debs, can you read the second book down on this link http://books.google.co.uk/books?q=%22Edwin+Turner+Osbaldeston%22&lr=&sa=N&start=0 it is intriguing me, but I can't get access to it!
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Debs, can you read the second book down on this link http://books.google.co.uk/books?q=%22Edwin+Turner+Osbaldeston%22&lr=&sa=N&start=0 it is intriguing me, but I can't get access to it!
Spidermonkey, I think that's one of the books that's not available to view.
The little snippet we can see of the first book is interesting - it suggests that Josiah Scudder Osbaldeston was a brother of Squire George Osbaldeston, about whom there's a lot of information around (including toni*'s link of earlier today - and see below):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Osbaldeston
NB the wikipedia entry suggests that "Squire" George only had sisters, so perhaps the supposed link was another piece of fiction!
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I was wondering whether google books USA has different viewing rights (due to copyright restrictions) than google UK. Why is it that the not available to view look like the most interesting?! The last one on that page looks good aswell
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avm We have been there with the George Osbaldeston connection, another load of porkies I'm afraid.
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Hi Spider :)
if you take out Edwin Turner and only leave Osbaldeston there ...you will get little snippets ..... I can't see the whole book either.
I do think it refers to his trail with Sheriff S Foster Black ..... trees has already transcribed it from a newspaper.
deb
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Deb the book of portraits is out of copyright so can I use the photo? if so how can I copy it it and the title beloe it is not clear and I don't see a way of magnifying it other than using my hand held lens...joys of getting old ;D
Well done jay wit thats a nice chunk of the jig saw in place
It would be great if Squire O was part of the family he seems a bit more respectable ;D
Version 4 of Family Historian arrived today cant help having a bit of a play with it ;D
H
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Thanks Deb. I couldn't see it when I just put in Osbaldeston, but when I added hoss I got a snippet view and it does indeed refer to Deputy Sheriff Foster Black
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Trees I've got the image of the marriage cert. if you want it, PM me.
I can't find them after their marriage Deb any chance they came your way? I also saw James was a cane worker, I had found Francis as a basket maker ( did he learn from James?), any chance Hubbard is a traveller name?
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Hi Trees
To save the picture:
Right-click on the picture
Choose "Save As"
You should be able to save the page as a jpeg image.
I've managed to save it, so if you have problems PM me your e-mail address and I'll send it to you.
Loving this thread ;D ;D (and the previous one.... ;D ;D)
Kind regards
Gaie
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Hi Trees ....
Did you imagine him looking like that? ;D Underneath his pic its says ;
Dr Edwin Turner Osbaldeston
Physician and Surgeon (retired)
New York City
Not sure of copyright :-\ maybe you could print the page?
Will check for the Hubbards
deb
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Can we have a round of applause for Roots member sheronb?
Marriage 24th August 1862 of James Hubbard 38 bachelor cane worker living Thorp St Birmingham father John Hubbard carpenter to Mary Ann Turner 42( well a lady can be coy about her age)spinster living Thorp St father Charles Pye Turner 1st lieutenant. Witnesses Thomas Bromley and Lucy Cooper.
The witnesses on Edwin's first marriage They married 4 weeks before Edwin and Annie Pratt.
1861
Birmingham
James Hubbard cane worker lodger mar 36
Ann wife 36 b Birmingham ...is this his first wife?
still looking for any passenger lists ....
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Thanks Gaie got it easy really ;D
Yes Deb very much as expected there are lots of newspaper photographs a particularly nice one wearing a medal ;D with one death report but newspares don't give nice images. I think he had red hair in youth as there are several places mentioning red sideburns was that where the fiery temper came from remember how he flew at poor Cockney Tom hitting him in the face and into the swimming pool
I wonder when NS will get home I've a load of questionsfor her
H
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Medical Directory of the city of New York 1891 what looks like an advert
Edwin T Osbaldeston Instructor formerly Surgeon SS McGregor and Micado of the Australian Pacific mail Company's service
Well we did find him on a passenger list for the micado1
H
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re Kate Osbaldeston , niece of ETO
IGI has her marriage;
Kate = Peter J. Peel
1 AUG 1897 Chicago, Cook Co. , IL
Shes with him in Chicago in 1900, he's Irish. They are living at Indiana Ave ...same as Julian (b/o ETO) and Francis (s/o ETO) were although they are not on the same page
Kate imm 1887.
Still together in 1920 ... can't see her in 1890 yet.
deb
wish I could find Alice Agnes' death ...
added ...can't see Kate's birth reg
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Think this is Josiah's tree :-\
William Osbaldeston = Ann Scudder 11th July 1750 Bredon, Worcestershire by licence
Ann Scudder baptised 9th June 1726 Chaceley, Glos. was the daughter of Josiah Scudder and Margaret
(from online transcribed parish records)
children:
Margaret baptised 7th June 1751 Tewkesbury
William baptised 24th February 1764 Tewkesbury
William Osbaldeston = Mary
children:
William Scudder Osbaldeston 7th April 1795 Great Malvern (IGI extracted)
Josiah Scudder Osbaldeston 18th May 1797 (ancestry public tree)
Susan :)
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I wonder if this is josiah Scudder Osbaldeston's brother, William
from NA
Information relating to document ref. no. MS 11936/539/1163626Insured: William Scudder Osbaldeston 105 Edgeware Road gent Other property or occupiers: Chapman cheesemonger. date 1833
Information relating to document ref. no. MS 11936/544/1178142Insured: William Scudder Osbaldeston, 7 Park Place, Paddington, gent. [Guildhall Library, Records of Sun Fire...] Date: 1834.
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Very good possibility, can't be two of them, or could there :-\ ::)
Susan :)
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That James Hubbard in 1861 looks like the right one, he said he was a batchelor on his marriage and I don't think Ann was Mary Ann, age is too far out, place of birth, and if it was where was Julian and if she was still alive Ann Maria born 1853?
The other thing is what had happened to Josiah Osbaldeston/Josiah James/Charles Turner last seen at Julian's baptism?
James Hubbard made his mark on the marriage cert, so it looks like a bit of a come down for Mary Ann.
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Jay ..... I must be going mad ...who is Ann Maria b 1853?
Can't find Josiah or MA hubbard ............. :-X
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Deb Ann Maria was baptised at the same time as Julian Alexander Turner ( Julian Turner Osbaldeston) the son of Charles Turner stationer ( or Josiah Osbaldeston or Josiah James)and Mary Ann Turner, There is a birth reg for her in 1853 under Turner but we have no further sightings of her at all.
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thanks, Jay
How can Julian and Ann Maria just disappear...I can't see any passenger lists for them ...If Mary Ann marries Hubbard in 1862, you would think her kids would be around in 1861.
I onder if ETO and JTO ever met up. ETO seems to also go bnack to his home base in NY, whereas JTO is in Canada and then Chicago .... oo just remembered that they did ...1890= NY City directory = JTO massage, ETO Masseur.
What a family :-X.... I wonder if Annie Pratt got married again ... maybe not as she would never have let Annie Mabel go with ETO.
going round in circles again ... deb
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Deb The only other thing I can think of Deb is that James and Mary Ann Hubbard went to Australia, but then Julian makes no mention of Australia although if I remember he does mention South Africa, but South Africa at that time isn't easy to research I think ??? ??? ???
I have searched the 1861 census page by page or the address James and Mary Ann gave in 1862 but Mary Ann isn't there. She must have been somewhere with the children in 1861, but she didn't want to show her face.
What happened to Josiah? There is a death of a Josiah James in Birmingham in 1855 but without sending for the certificate there is no way of telling if it was him and it was before Julian was born ??? ??? ???
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ummmm found this
passenger list
NSW Assisted
Chas Osbaldiston
arrived; 2 Aug 1831
Vessel Name: Curler
Origin Location: London, Cape of Good Hope
then
NSW Unassisted
Charles Osbaldiston
Port of Departure: London, Cape & Hobt Town
Port of Arrival: Port Jackson, New South Wales
Voyage Arrival Date: 2 Aug 1831
Vessel Name: Curler
also remember that ETO stated that he came over to the USA in 1854 on board the ship "ERIN"
well I have found a S Osbaldestone, 28: Mrs O 26 and Miss I or T O 6 on board the ERIN....arrived USA 26 Feb 1880 :-\
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Mmmmmm
Deb That 1880 arrival. We know ETO and Alice are in NY in May 1880 when they marry, we can guess they were together somewhere in Jan/Feb 1880 for Alice to become pregnant.
We also know ETO seemed to have names of ships, places, events etc. in his mind which he changed round at will and embellished. Now 6 year old child? we have heard that one before haven't we.
But why would he use the incorrect initials? Unless he wanted by some other police force we don't know about.
It would tie up but we have no way of proving anything.
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I as thinking the S could stand for Scudder :-\ and the child ...it looks like a T could stand for Turner
I think Alberta, the youngest dau of ETO may have gone to Sydney:
Miss A Osbaldeston
Port of Departure: London
Port of Arrival: Sydney, New South Wales
Voyage Arrival Date: 26 Oct 1911
Vessel Name: Otway
The last time I see Alberta is 1910 Manhattan with ETO and Alice ....
Unfortunately the PL does not give a DOB for Miss A Osbaldeston
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Gracious why would Alberta go off to Australia she must have had her head filled with the wondrous life squeaky clean Dr daddy had lived there I wonder how much the children knew about their father it looks like Alice did a good job in hiding the truth from them,
That list for the Erin looks very interesting
how did they pay for all their travels they are on passenger lists not crew lists are there any records of ships crew that we can access
(I cant wait to the 16th and our new form of connection we have been off line for long periods again today and it did't start raining until after dinner)
H
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The ERIN is interesting.... especailly as it is mentioned on the passport application for himself and Edwin Julian ..... quite a coincidence that there should be Osbaldestons on an ERIN in 1880 ...
also Mrs O is aged 26 ...which adds up to Alice Agnes' age ... b 1854.
this is all assumption , of course .... actually it may add up as ETO and Alice married in May 1880.....
But would he be able to get away ith his daughter being 6 when Annie Mabel was actually 16 errr 14 ...Unless he gave the details and lied about his age and hers ....
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Miss A Osbaldeston was listed with others on Page 16 as going on to Brisbane on the Otway in 1911.
The ships' passenger lists also list crew members, so if a certain person was working as a ship's doctor, say, then they should show up........ ::)
Kind regards
Gaie
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Thanks Gaie now is there a ships Dr/surgeon anywhere rejoicing in the name of Turner or Osbaldeston or possibly Pye on the high seas say between 1840 and 1910
By the way did we ever bury Alice? I wonder how much she knew of his "secret" life do you think she was aware of Louis W or of the camp at Lake Titus? Did she buy into the half brother theory? Was she too scared of him to say anything
H
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Found it
The Bourbon News Paris KY January 24 1905 page 3 an amazing story about an idiot rich man who married a scheming woman who drugged him
ETO was engaged as a nurse to the man ummm
"...a man named “Dr”( the report has put the quote marks) E T Osbaldeston, who was employed as a nurse in the Duke apartments ...he( the nurse) insisted that a doctor be called...Osbaldesston admits that he was once arrested in Montreal with a woman names Louisa Weiss, who was accused of theft, And that he spent several years in an insane asylum there.."
he then goes on to say he was shot in the head " In August 1892...investigating a suspect dive in New York city... silver plate inserted in his skull to cover the hole made in it by a colored man who shot him while he was thus engaged in another raid."
OK when did he spend time in the Montreal Asylum
Are there any reports about his investigations in 1892?
H
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There are other Osbaldestons in Australia in the 1800s......in Victoria at least.
Don't know if they would be connected.
Dee
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Dee There is a tree on An****** about some Australian Osbaldeston's and yes they are related I think through ETO's grandfather.
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Thanks Jaywit....so that could explain his original visit to Victoria.......
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i havent caught up on the whole thread
sorry if this is duplicated but have you seen this?
http://www.nram.govt.nz/record.php?id=11707&parent=nramindexbyvolume&volume=Y
Description
The diary entries seem to have been made in a notebook: there is a photocopy of the original manuscript with a typed transcript alongside. According to notes made by Noel Siver, his great-granddaughter, the diary notes commence in ca. 1840s, when he was on military service in Malta.
Edwin Osbaldeston used the name Dr. Edwin Turner while he was in New Zealand in 1876, perhaps because he had been in gaol in Adelaide from 1867 until 1873. He was a burglar, petty thief, masseur, ship's surgeon, ventriloquist and lecturer. He began his 1876 stay in New Zealand as resident physician at Waiwera Hot Springs, near Auckland (his occupation when this notebook was written). He came to Christchurch in the same year, where he spent some time in Addington Gaol. He broke out of gaol and went to Melbourne, then back to England as a ship's surgeon.
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and he is also mentioned in the 'Empire State Notables'
http://www.archive.org/stream/empirestatenotab00staff/empirestatenotab00staff_djvu.txt
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ok yesterday i posted about Squire Osbaldeton
i think now he is
the famous sportsman George Osbaldeston (1787-1866),
as in the 'Who's who in New York City and State' - Page 1002
it says this
OSBALDESTON, Edwin Turner: Physician and surgeon ; b. Cheltenham, England, Dec.
27. 1842 ; s. Josiah Scudder Osbaldeston (brother of Squire George
does that help ? or not?
also found on Google Books (and apologies if repeating earlier stufffinds)
He swallowed his anger and turned to Judge Tumen with the charge that Dr.
Osbaldeston was the same Edwin Turner who, forty-five years ago, stole a "hoss
and ...
this book also mentions
"Sir", said Dr Edwin Pye Turner Onslow Osbaldeston going on ninety-four, to Deputy Sheriff S. Foster Black, ninety-one, "Sir, you are an outrageous liar."
the spry old Deputy Sheriff gloomed darkly. ......
&
Deputy Sheriff Black ... here for Binghamton before noon, saying he would extradite the old doctor for trial.
"First", Said Dr Osbaldeston, in a voice that tottered a bit, "the story is not true. I was never in Binghamton in my life.
The best in the World By John K. Hutchens, George Oppenheimer
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0694/
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Found it
The Bourbon News Paris KY January 24 1905 page 3 an amazing story about an idiot rich man who married a scheming woman who drugged him
ETO was engaged as a nurse to the man ummm
"...a man named “Dr”( the report has put the quote marks) E T Osbaldeston, who was employed as a nurse in the Duke apartments ...he( the nurse) insisted that a doctor be called...Osbaldesston admits that he was once arrested in Montreal with a woman names Louisa Weiss, who was accused of theft, And that he spent several years in an insane asylum there.."
he then goes on to say he was shot in the head " In August 1892...investigating a suspect dive in New York city... silver plate inserted in his skull to cover the hole made in it by a colored man who shot him while he was thus engaged in another raid."
OK when did he spend time in the Montreal Asylum
Are there any reports about his investigations in 1892?
H
hi Trees
So he gets shot in 1892 in a raid in NY ..gets plate put in head, ...what on earth is a masseur doing in a raid ?? 8)
so between 1892 - 1895 there should be a border crossing from NY to canada
ummmmmm .... he says he spent time in an asylum in Canada ...' (1895 arrested in Canada)
timeline;
1893 ETO accused of Child Abuse ...in newspapers
so ETO had to go to Canada sometime after abuse case and before being arrested.
1895 ETO and Louise Weiss arrested Montreal, Canada
...Louise gets put in jail but is having Mascot a year later. How did she get pregnant, if ETO got away....unless she was already pregnant
1896 Mascot Louise Osbaldeston born Lake Titus, NY d/o ETO and Louise
argghhhhhhhh
Hi Toni ... yep we have that info :)
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Morning / Afternoon Deb :)
and his death notice in the Arkansas Gazette 1929
available from Arkansas Research, Inc., PO Box 303, Conway, AR 72033, 501/470-1120, www.ArkansasResearch.com
The book (Index of Death Notices Appearing in the Arkansas Gazette, 1929_ by Oscar G. Russell) itself contains a complete list, A to Z, of people who are mentioned in the Arkansas Gazette newspaper as having died in 1929. Some people are listed more than one time because they’re mentioned in more than one issue or on more than one page of the newspaper. Some of these folks never set foot in Arkansas, but if they were reported dead, they’re listed. The book itself gives the deceased’s name, age, town and state or country of residence, newspaper date, page and column.
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Hi Deb
A couple more snippets about Julian from Google Books
Illinois Medical Journal 1906
Change of address from 3248 Rhodes Ave Chicago to Indianapolis Ind.
Annual report of the Visiting Nurse Association of Chicago 1908
Dr Julian Osbaldeston 2238 Indiana Ave.
Don't like that visiting nurse bit was he pushing ETO as a nurse?
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do you Osbaldestons connect to the Osbaldestons from 'up north'
earlier i.e. circa 1650's and before
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Toni we have them in Worcestershire c1790 ( tree on A*******) No connection with Squire George, one of the countless porkies told by ETO.
You can't believe anything he said unless you can find confirmation from a reliable scource.
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As yet we have no connection to the northern Osbaldestons toni* but there are so many weird and wonderful stories its hard to sort out who was who the chatters here are doing a splendid job.
Deb in that report he was supposedly shot in the head in two raids. What did he mean "investigating a dive in NY city" is he now pretending to be a police man/detective ??? I cant find any newspapers mentioning a man shot in the head in 1892 in NYcity Would you expect a report of it? especially if it resulted in a silver plate. I think that must be true as he rants on later as how the "impostor half brother" got a horse to kick him in the head so he too could have a siver plate.
H
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Trees, the Canadian escapede, I found this online
http://thestar.pagesofthepast.ca/Default.asp
If you enter Osbaldeston nothing comes up, but if you enter Edwin Turner you do get results from 1894 to 1898.Problem is you have to pay to see the results.
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Hi
just noticed this from when he was arrested;
ASBURY PARIS, March 28. 1926 -- Dr. Edwin Pye Turner Rowe Osbaldeston
where does the name "ROWE" come from?
deb
PS ...can't find JTO in 1920 :-\
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Deb I dread to think where he got that one from. ;D ;D ;D ;D
JTO didn't die until 1921 so he should be around somewhere, it's just the usual where and what name was he using.
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Deb I was looking on A****** at the passenger lists we can't see and there appear to be quite a few entries for Francis/Frank Osbaldeston. Were they all ETO's brother Francis who settled in Chicago?
I also noticed this one.
New York Passenger Lists, 1820-1957
Immigration & Emigration
.
Name: Alex Osbaldeston
Birth: year
Departure: location
Arrival: date - New York, New York
What made that stand out were 2 things, only entry I could see for that christian name and it was Julian's second christian name ( Alexander)
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I have been following up Alice Agnes Moore, and how a nice young lady (presumably), brought up in the relative isolation of rural Suffolk, could have come into contact with ETO. Whilst I have not established any definite links, I have found something interesting which might form a link between a quiet country life and the upper echelons of society.
In 1871 Alice Agnes Moore was in service to the Seacocks family in Yoxford. The daughter of the family, Eleanor S Seacocks (in the 1871 census) can be found in the 1881 census as Eleanor S Jeacocks and is governess to the children of none other than Lord Arthur Wrottesley, Baron, Lord Lieutenant of Staffordshire; seems just the sort of person ETO might want to associate with.
Greensleeves
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Thanks greensleeves I have been thinking along that line too It must have been for her contacts i would think . I wonder why and on earth he met poor Ann Pratt there is no obvious reason for their meeting either. It looks like they went to Australia to follow some of his relations and the diary apparently;y says they went to visit Ann's family before they went to Australia I wonder did he think the PRATT's had a nest egg stashed away but her dad was a railway porter with 11 children
H
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Dear Chatters,
Congratulations on the fabulous job that you've been doing with the research on my great-grandfather, Edwin Turner Osbaldeston. Even though I've been researching his life since 1996 you've come up with a few items that I hadn't found. It's been great following your posts. Thank you all for your time and efforts. As you can see, I've now registered with RootsChat and will be able to provide answers to many of your questions regarding ETO and various family members. However I need to ask for your patience. I'm still in the UK doing family history research and will not have a lot of time to log on until the end of May-beginning of June.
Before I log off, I thought you might like to know that not only does the parish register entry for the marriage of my great-great-grandmother Mary Ann TURNER and James HUBBARD -- which I hadn't seen before -- reveal the identity of the witnesses to ETO's marriage to Ann PRATT, but it also answers a question I've had ever since I visited the Bristol Record Office in 2001.
On the paperwork that was filled out when ETO's mother Mary Ann TURNER was committed to the Bristol Lunatic Asylum, Fishponds, Stapleton, Glos. on 26 July 1876 her occupation was listed as "wife of a chairmaker" and her husband's name was recorded as James Turner. I had long wondered if this was misinformation supplied by Josiah Scudder OSBALDESTON. Judging by the description of her symptoms and her medical notes it sounds as though she was suffering from senile dementia. She died in the asylum on 23 June 1878.
So it appears that Mary Ann TURNER had had enough of JSO and decided to marry neighbour James HUBBARD. WOW!!! By the way, I found JSO in the 1861 census living in a boarding house in Wolverhampton. His name was recorded as Joseph rather than Josiah and his age is incorrect. However his occupation and place of birth are correct so I'm convinced that it is JSO.
If one of you has a chance, would you mind looking for James and Mary Ann HUBBARD in the 1871 census in Bristol --possibly on Prince's St in Bedminster. In an article entitled “Had a Life of Adventure,” Detroit Free Press, Sunday, 9 January 1898, her youngest son Julian mentioned that he/they moved to Bristol in 1866.
Must go now but will be back in touch soon.
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Hello Dinosaur and a warm welcome :)
If one of you has a chance, would you mind looking for James and Mary Ann HUBBARD in the 1871 census in Bristol --possibly on Prince's St in Bedminster. In an article entitled “Had a Life of Adventure,” Detroit Free Press, Sunday, 9 January 1898, her youngest son Julian mentioned that he/they moved to Bristol in 1866.
This looks like James and Mary Ann:
1871 census: RG10/2507/42/24
12 Waterloo Square [just off Princes St], Bedminster
James TURNER Head Mar 46 Cane worker b England Blind
Mary Ann do Wife Do 52 Essex
Anna :)
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A big welcome to the rootschat community Dinosaur you have discovered the best FH site and I hope you will find as we do a lot of fun and friendship along with incredible research
Today I am going right back to the beginning and making sure I have picked every point up
H
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Hi Dinosaur :D
Nice to 'meet' you! Your great grandfather has kept us busy for days .... we have had great fun searching for him!
BTW ... do you have them in 1861?
Anna ...that looks good!
deb
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Deb Dinosaur says she found Josiah in Wolverhampton in 1861 ( with the name Joseph), I can't see him can you?
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hi Jay ...
nope , I have looked for him aswell, with no luck! :-\
If JTO says they went to Bristol in 1866 , where the heck are they in 1861 ??
deb
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Deb We got James in Birmingham in 1861 with a 'wife' Ann but no sign of Mary Ann and Julian, they must have been around Birmingham somewhere, but perhaps hiding from Josiah?
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Jay
he's in Wolverhampton in 1861 not '71 ooopsss :-[
1861
Joseph Osbaldeston lodger unm bookseller 71 b Worcester, malvern
So he's 'Unmarried' in 1861 ...so it looks like mary Ann was with James Hubbard in 1861 , but where are the kids ...Julian would only be about 5years old :-\
deb
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Deb I know, I'm not 100% convinced that the Ann with James is in fact
Mary Ann, I found a match for Francis under James ( he was only 10/11 in 1861) in Worcestershire as a visitor. Perhaps Julian was with a different family somewhere but with what name? and Ann Maria we don't know anything about her wether she was alive or had died.
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Deb Another thought. Julian isn't with James and Mary Ann in 1871, so although he would only be around 15 years of age where was he? ETO was in Australia at that time, did Julian go to South Africa on his own as a teenager? He said he had been there.
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ummm will keep looking
just as a reference
1851;
Birmingham
Josiah James 56 Gt Malvern, Worcester
Mary Ann 34 Deal, Kent
Frederick 18, oxford
Edwin 12 , Oxford
Emma 10 , Cheltenham
Charles 6, cheltenham
Frank 2, Birmingham
Julian Alexander Turner b 1855 Birmingham
Ann Maria Turner b 1853, Birmingham
deb
jay .... geezzzzzzzzz I have no clue where JTO was ... he was in Canada by 1885 when he married Margaret Close .... I can't find her either .... :-\
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I've been working practically all day filling in the data on my tree that you have found and I am still only up to page 5 gosh this is a book not an entry on a twig of the tree I am wondering how it is going to look when I print it out
WONDERFUL
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Archives are closed today (Sunday) so I can join you for a little while.
About ETO's siblings, his eldest brother was Frederick Turner (who never used the surname Osbaldeston). Frederick was baptised at St Thomas', Jericho, Oxford on 12 Aug 1832. In the parish register the name of his mother, Mary Ann Turner, is recorded but there's no father's name. According to ETO Frederick was raised by relatives but I don't know who they were or where they lived. Maybe the Oxford neighborhood of Jericho? I didn't find him in the 1841 census.
As you already know, Frederick is with his parents and siblings at the time of the 1851 census. On 11 April 1855 he enlisted in the Royal Artillery in Birmingham and went on to have a distinguished military career. He was an instructor at the RA School of Gunnery in Shoeburyness, Essex for several years and then moved to Newcastle. He married twice, had a son in 1862 by his first wife Elizabeth Murray who died sometime between 1862 and 1871; a daughter Elizabeth "without benefit of clergy" ca. 1879, and several children by his second wife (his first cousin Frances Maria Turner) who he married in June 1884.
ETO also enlisted in the RA, on 22 Jan 1859 in Birmingham. He was stationed in Malta from 26 May 1860 until 28 Aug 1861. When he returned to the UK he was stationed on the Isle of Wight. He deserted from the RA in mid-July 1862.
Every time ETO was asked to fill out an official form he would insert a lie or two. His RA enlistment form was the first of many forms on which he lied. He also lied when he applied to become a naturalized US citizen, claiming that he was Swedish and that he had arrived in the US in 1850. On his 1902 passport application he claimed he had arrived in the US in 1854. He also fibbed on the Adelaide Gaol register and the Yatala Labour Prison register.
ETO's first visit to the US was to San Francisco in late 1875 as passenger ship's physician. He and his daughter Annie Mabel stayed about six weeks and then moved to New Zealand from Jan-Oct 1876. ETO, Alice Agnes Moore (who ETO met in London), and his daughter Annie Mabel appear to have emigrated to New York from England in Feb 1880. Deb, where did you find the passenger list that shows an S Osbaldestone, 28, Mrs O, and Miss I or T O, 6 arriving on board the ERIN on 26 Feb 1880?
The third child of Josiah Scudder Osbaldeston and his step-daughter Mary Ann Turner was Emma (aka Emily), born in early 1841. I haven't found her exact date of birth or her baptism. On 6 Aug 1860 she married Joseph Harnel Vernon at St Martin's in Birmingham. On the certificate her name appears as Emily Turner Osbeldeston.
I have not found Mary Ann Turner and her youngest children or Joseph and Emily Vernon in the 1861 census. They may have been living together.
Josiah Scudder Osbaldeston and his wife Mary Ann Lewis Turner, the widow of Royal Navy lieutenant Charles Pye Turner, had four children: Maria, baptised in Woodstock, Oxon on 28 Oct 1825; Henry William, bapt Witney, Oxon 6 Apr 1828; Bridget, born ca. 1832 (I haven't found her baptism); and, thanks to Sue Teakle, Joseph, bapt in Gloucester in 1835. Sue, can you pls tell me on what date and in which church?
The family appears to have had an acrimonious parting in 1844: Josiah Osbaldeston, Mary Ann Turner and their children went to live in Birmingham. Mary Ann Lewis Turner Osbaldeston and her daughter Maria moved to Oxford. (Mary Ann Lewis Turner Osbaldeston began receiving her Royal Navy widow's pension in Oxford in the last quarter of of 1844.) She died in Oxford on 11 Dec 1857. Daughter Maria remained unmarried and didn't die until 1912!
In the article “Had a Life of Adventure,” Detroit Free Press, Sunday, 9 January 1898, ETO's youngest brother Julian said he and friend stowed away on a ship that took them to Norway. He later went to South Africa. I don't have the article with me so can't tell you the dates but the stowing away must have taken place before the 1871 census.
What is the reference for Francis James, visitor in Worcestershire in the 1861 census?
I don't know how long a post can be so before this one self-destructs, I'm going to sign off. ttyl
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Wow Dinosaur that answers a lot of questions now dare I add a few more?
Do you have the death of Alice?
Do you have the death of Annie Mabel? We have found one
MI in Carlyle
located between Rutherglan and Wahguiyah
In Loving Memory of John KNOWLES 29 12 1938 age 76
In Loving Memory of ANNIE MABEL KNOWLES 24 9 1935 age 58
but as you know she married Fredric Elliot KNOWLES so who was John?
Why was Edwina Agnes the only one found in the IGI were Ethel Augusta and Edwina one or two people there is a mystery about Edwina?
how many children did Alice have i think I am missing one from what it said on the censuses
H
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Hi and WOW!!!!
Thanks for the info Dinosaur ...what a story!!!!
I found S, mrs and Miss I/T Osbaldestone passenger list on ancestr*. The date of arrival seems to fit with what Annie Mabel says and they are there in time for ETO to marry Alice Agnes in March 1880. The fact that ETO states that he arrived in the US on board the Erin (passport application for him and Edwin Julian) seems too coincidental!
deb
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Hi to all ,
re Mary Ann Turner otherwise known as Emily/Emma married to Joseph Harnel Vernon.
Don't know if this means anything but in this article in the New York Times re
Say His Father is Cruel
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9C01E4D61F3FEF33A25755C0A9609C94629ED7CF
a Mrs Vernon is mentioned as an Aunt of Edwin Jnr. Could this be Mary Ann Turner/ Vernon?
regards
Cathy
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Some answers ...
Alice Agnes Moore Osbaldeston died on 9 Jan 1921 in East Orange, New Jersey. She was buried in Woodlawn Cemetery, in the borough of Bronx, New York City.
She had 7 children: Ethel Monica Augusta (born 4 Oct 1880, Rome, Oneida County, NY); Edwina Agnes (born 30 Jan 1882, NYC-died 27 Aug 1881, Newport, Rhode Island); Edwin Julian (4 May 1883, NYC); Geneva Agnes (23 June 1885, NYC); my grandmother Normandie Alice (27 July 1887, NYC); Francis Scudder (18 July 1889, NYC); and Alberta Victoria (7 June 1891, NYC). I have no idea why Edwina is the only one on the IGI. (Our great-aunt Ethel left notes with the names, birthdates, and dates of death of all her siblings so I hadn't bothered to look for them on the IGI.)
When ETO was in jail in Binghamton, NY in Nov 1880 for stealing a horse and carriage Alice Agnes took baby Ethel and her 14-year-old stepdaughter Annie Mabel to England. They sailed from New York to Liverpool on the SS Italy on 1 Dec 1880. In the “Passengers Sailed” section of the New York Times their surname was mis-spelled Ospaldeston.
ETO escaped from Broome County Jail in Binghamton on 6 Dec 1880. I believe he made his way to England before the end of April 1881. One of the newspaper articles on www.fultonhistory.com mentions that the Broome County sheriff in Binghamton received a letter from ETO from England. Also, as several of you have already noticed, daughter Edwina was born at the end of Jan 1882.
By the way, another excellent website for newspapers from northern New York state is: http://news.nnyln.net (the Northern New York Library Network). I found a number of ETO-related articles on that website, mostly but not exclusively in the Franklin County newspapers.
ETO's eldest daughter Annie Mabel Osbaldeston Knowles died in St Luke's Hospital, NYC on 11 Jan 1913. She married John Frederick (aka Fred) Knowles. (I think the name Frederick Elliot is an error that somehow crept into the family record.) I believe he died not long after Annie Mabel but I don't have that info with me here in the UK. I know that they're both buried in Woodlawn Cemetery in the Bronx, NYC.
Also buried in Woodlawn Cemetery is ETO and AAM's youngest daughter Alberta Victoria who committed suicide in March 1921 at Hot Springs, Arkansas. She was married to artist Phil(l)ip Plaistridge in 1914 but they had separated. She was very talented, studied painting with Gruppe, and signed her paintings as Alberta Ludbrook (a surname from the Suffolk side of the family). If you google "Alberta Ludbrook" you should find an interesting article that appeared in the Atlanta Constitution on 20 May 1917.
ETO's brother Charles went to Australia before ETO did (as Charles Turner) but that will have to be the subject of a later posting as I do not have the info with me.
I'm ever so pleased with the new (to me) information re ETO and his family members that RootsChatters have found. Thanks again to everyone who's contributed.
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Hello. Just to clarify things: Emma Osbaldeston Vernon is ETO's sister and the aunt of Edwin junior who is mentioned in the NYTimes article.
Mary Ann Turner was the mother of Edwin senior (aka ETO) and Emma. Contrary to what it says on the census, she was born in Union Street, Lambeth, Surrey (on 22 May 1815) and baptised on 14 Aug 1816 at St Mary's, Lambeth.
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Sorry Dinosaur got a little muddled up there for a minute.
You say you had not found Emily and Joseph Vernon for the 1861 census and I wondered if she had gone to America by then and whether you had seen her in the New York Times article.
Best wishes
Cathy
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Thanks for all the info .... it lays some queries we had, to rest :D
BTW who is John E Turner who is mentioned in Geneva's (I think) obit? All the othert siblings were named Osbaldeston , he is the only 'brother' named Turner! Do you think he could be Edwin Julian.
Cathy ...thanks for the article ...we knew he was cruel to his children , but poor Edwin seems to have almost been flogged !!!! :'( :'(
deb
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Hi again :)
Dinosaur ..... You have done so much delving and searching into your family ... as have we ;D ...I just wanted to know what we found that is new to you....
still searching for the Vernons and Turner/Osbaldestons in 1861 :-\ :-\
deb
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It's real easy to get muddled with this family. I can't begin to tell you the number of times they've reduced me to a quivering heap of protoplasm!!! Especially ETO who indulged in a great deal of self-aggrandisement, did not have a good memory for people's names, place names, or dates, and omitted numerous inconvenient truths from his diary which was more a work of fiction than fact!
Re great-uncle John Edwin Turner (aka Ed). The last time I found him using his birth name--Edwin Julian Turner Osbaldeston--was in the 1904 Chicago city directory which lists him as: Osbaldeston Edwin J masseur (The address was that of his uncle Dr. Julian Osbaldeston). When he married Jean MacDonald in Rochester, NY on 12 Aug 1907 he used the name John Edwin Turner. I assume he changed his name legally but don't know exactly when and where.
As ETO's eldest son a lot of pressure was heaped on young Edwin. ETO was very ambitious. He pressured himself a lot and expected a great deal from those around him, even though some of them were still young children. Unfortunately ETO left both physical and psychological scars on his children. He also did not encourage or assist them to pursue higher education.
Edwin may have been with his father in Germany in May 1902 when ETO murdered two men--a very dark chapter. If so that could have caused Edwin to want to disassociate himself from ETO and the Osbaldeston name.
ETO taught his older children and his siblings to do massage. I think that ETO paid for his siblings Francis (with wife Sarah and their adopted daughter Kate), Emma (and husband Joseph Vernon and their sons), and Julian to come to the US in the mid-1880s. He taught them massage so that they could set themselves up in business as soon as possible. The Vernons stayed in Manhattan but brother Francis moved to Chicago.
Julian was in Canada where he married Margaret Close in late 1885. She was either a widow or divorcee with a child or children. An article on http://news.nnyln.net ("The Osbaldeston Case," Malone Palladium, Thurs, 26 Nov 1896) consists of a letter from a Brooklyn masseur (a competitor of ETO?) who alleges that Julian had to leave Canada after he locked his stepson (most likely a teenager) out of the house on a cold winter night and the child died. I have not yet been able to confirm this story. If it's true, it's awful.
Thanks, deb, for the source of the Erin passenger list. I'll answer your latest question -- about sources new to me -- after I've had a break.
Apologies for the length of these posts but I'm two weeks behind the rest of you!
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Dinosaur The 1861 census ref. for Francis James is RG9/2088/28/21. He is staying with an apparently wealthy farming family named Essex.
Of course we can't be 100% sure he is your Francis but seeing as we can't find him elsewhere he is worth checking out.
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Hi
Margaret Close on her marriage cert states that her parents are
Denis Callins ...maybe Collins and margaret Watson ...so I also assumed that she had been married prior to JTO.
I am trying to find the article re Margaret's son ...
deb
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Thank you so much, Dinosaur,for spending so much time posting all this info; I'm sure you are putting a lot of us out of our misery, because we all seem to have got caught up in this story!
I did find Frederick Turner only last night, but as I am a bit of a novice, I wasn't sure it was him - particularly because in the 1871 Maria is referred to as his sister. For the rest of you, the entries are thus:
1861 census at the Military Barracks, Shoeburyness, Frederick Turner, 25, Sergeant, Royal Artillery, b. Oxford and Elizabeth Turner, 25, b. Gibraltar.
1871 census shows them at Elswick, Northumberland: Frederick Turner, widower,36, Volunteer Adjutant, b. Oxford with Frederick (son) 8, b. Essex, Shoeburyness; Maria (sister), 40, b. Oxford, Woodstock and Frances (niece), 18, b. Berks, Reading.
In 1891 Frederick, 55, Retired Officer, Royal Artillery, is with wife Frances F, 35, b. Reading, and various children.
The entry for Maria had confused me somewhat because I knew Frederick didn't have a sister called Maria, so thanks for clarifying that one - and many other queries - Dinosaur!
Regards
Greensleeves
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Dinosaur we have all been so engrossed in this story, very difficult to stay away!
When I was in Gloucester Archives last week had a look at the baptism of Joseph
St. John The Baptist, Gloucester
9th May 1835 Joseph Osbaldeston son of Josiah & Mary Anne
Father's occupation - Licensed Hawker of Books
Abode - St. John Baptist
Where was ETO baptised?
Susan :)
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Hi Greensleeves, Susan and Jay ;D
It's so fascinating and addictive .....
Susan , on the 1851 census where the family is under the name James ...ETO is b OXFORD.
deb
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Thank you Dinosaur for the new newspaper link I have tears rolling down my face as I read that he had exposed a massage impostor to the police and had been accused would you believe of seducing the "imposter's" daughter
http://news.nnyln.net/franklin-county/search.html
Can you imagine him picking the horse off the ground as a stunt to advertise his physical training classes wonderful
I do hope you don't mind us enjoying this black sheep of the family he really is entertaining to say the least
H
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OOh deb re your reply 202
In this ranting letter in the malone Palladium for Jan 21 1897 he states "...none of my brother's ever married such a person as Mrs Collins, the name only exists in the diseases imagination of his cowardly opponent..."
oh I do hope I can find the letter he is replying to it must be a beauty in this one he mentions most of his siblings and their noble spouses
H
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I have been searching for Margaret Close/Collins/Turner Osbaldeston ;D
cannot find her anyhere ...I am looking for a "Close" death which may be her son....that as left out in the cold. If this is try then JTO and ETO seem to be rather violent guys.
Margaret Close's dad was Denis Callins/Collins , why would Margaret be refered to as "Mrs COLLINS" and not Mrs CLOSE :-\
ps ...found the letter ! The opponent was Thomas Denny, retired masseur
http://news.nnyln.net/malone-palladium/search.html
added ... Trees ...Type in with quotation marks "the Osbaldeston case"
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Has anyone here Got any Screenwriter skills?
Ive been following this mini series for a while now and it would make an excellent "made for TV Movie" :)
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Woody ;D ;D ;D
No screenwriters skills here !
I wonder if JTO crossed over the Canadian border, illegally, to ETO's Lake Titus, Mascot Camp. I cannot find an entry for him into the USA.
ETO's Daughter by Louise Weiss, Mascott Louise Osbaldeston was born there in 1896 ....I think
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Another article says that Prof and Mrs Osbaldeston plus kids were at Lake Titus for the summer ....Oct 31, 1895.... Mrs O and kids were going back to NY but Prof O was staying to 'see to business' ....
this is around the time that Louise Weiss was arrested in Canada ... was ETO waiting for her to get to Lake Titus so she could have baby Mascot in 1896 ?
deb
I really need to update timeline ...but it's Mother's day here so I am off for a late lunch/early dinner ;D
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Items new to me:
Joseph Osbaldeston, son of Josiah and Mary Anne.
Thanks, Susan, for posting the full details of his baptism. Neither Joseph, b. 1835, nor his brother, Henry William, b. 1828, appear in the 1841 census but I haven’t found their burials. Sister Bridget is on that census but not on the 1851. However, she may have married, possibly in Birmingham, before 1851.
The 1st quarter 1853 birth of Ann Maria Turner. Because both she and Julian Alexander Turner were baptised on the same day (21 Jan 1855), I’d assumed they were twins. I’d ordered Julian’s birth certificate (he was born on 12 Dec 1854) and wondered why I didn’t see one for Ann Maria. Duh, now I know.
The 1862 marriage of Mary Ann Turner and James Hubbard.
It hadn’t occurred to me that the James and Mary Ann Hubbard who were witnesses to the marriage of Edwin Turner Osbaldeston and Ann Pratt could be related to the groom. This is a prime example of why it pays to have fresh eyes and brain cells look at things.
The 16 May 1880 marriage of ETO and Alice Agnes Moore.
Because we have their marriage certificate among our family history material I hadn’t bothered to look for their marriage on the Italian genweb site. However our certificate is dated 16 March. ETO mentioned that they were married by well-known preacher Henry Ward Beecher. The certificate bears Beecher’s signature. But was Beecher really in Brooklyn on 16 March? A search of the New York Times index puts him in Ohio on that date. I’ll order the certificate and compare it with the one we have. It’s not impossible that ETO altered it to make it closer to the date of conception.
The newspaper article “And So They Were Married,” The Sun (New York), Tuesday, 14 Feb 1888
I’ve searched http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/ in the past but hadn’t come across this gem.
The newspaper article “Now They Know All About Massage,” New York Daily Tribune, Sunday, 22 April 1894, p. 3
This article was on www.fultonhistory.com, the site that’s provided the greatest number of ETO-related articles. I hadn’t visited the site for a while so it was great to learn that Tom Tryniski has expanded his coverage to a whopping 9 million plus pages.
http://thestar.pagesofthepast.ca
On a research visit to the New York Public Library I printed (from microfilm) the article “That Charge Against a Masseur,” Montreal Daily Star, Monday, 23 November 1896, p. 8. It might be worth visiting this site to see if there are any more articles. BTW, ETO and Louise Weiss were arrested in Montreal 3 months after the birth of their daughter Mascot.
Again, I thank your fresh eyes and brain cells for finding the above.
P.S. Despite what the 1851 census says, ETO was born in Cheltenham (on 11 July 1838). He was baptised (as Edwin Turner) at St Mary's Cheltenham on 30 Dec 1838.
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I know a young film maker who would love to make the film or TV serial ;D If only he could afford the equipment :'(
these "new" newspapers are great but we must go and eat
See you later
H
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Particularly when a top grade camera costs £15,000. Not including the lens!
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deb -- I forgot one
Empire State Notables. We have a number of photos of ETO but not have the one in this book.
thanks, Dinosaur
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I'm disappearing off to Germany for the next 5 days so won't be able to check back in until Friday evening.
Some of my mother's ancestors come from the village of Kammerborn bei Uslar, northwest of Gottingen in Lower Saxony. The father of our immigrant ancestor was a cowherd there. Somehow I doubt I'll find anyone as colorful as the Osbaldestons!
Bye for now
Dinosaur
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I doubt any of us have anyone like the Osbaldestons ;D ;D ;D...although my family did have people who in 1851 were "the Slacks", (dad= Coach builder) and by 1861 were "the Smiths", (dad= hawker) ...we hafe no clue why!
re this from Dinosaur:
"The newspaper article “And So They Were Married,” The Sun (New York), Tuesday, 14 Feb 1888
I’ve searched http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/ in the past but hadn’t come across this gem. "
I cannot find it! What is it about?
deb
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Deb it was Annie Mabel's marriage its one I found on the Fulton web link transcribed and lost grrr can I refind it ??? ???
It said her father gave her the option of giving up her fiance or leaving home...some choice
She went to the house where he lived with his mum and although they had planned to marry in a couple of years they went out that afternoon and tied the knot. ETO threated the law as he reckoned she was under age ..but nothing came of that she was 21 after all and ETO far from squeaky clean was hardly likely to bother the law.
H
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I bet Addington jail was a bit different in ETO's day ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsGXXeLPX-4
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Here's the page with "And So They Were Married"
http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83030272/1888-02-14/ed-1/seq-3/
Susan :)
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Thanks Susan I've been going over and over all these newspapers trying to find it again :)
H
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He was baptised (as Edwin Turner) at St Mary's Cheltenham on 30 Dec 1838.
I asked the question, already had the answer in notes I made at the Glos Archives :-[
1838 Dec. 30th Edwin son of Charles & Mary Ann Turner, Gas Green Chelt'm, Book Binder
GFHS has come back to me with info from the birth registration index taken from the original register, Edwin's mother Mary Ann's maiden name was Tanner.
Where does Tanner come from :-\
Susan :)
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I think that was a mistake on behalf of the clerk he probably found it strange that she was apparently Mrs Turner and also nee Turner...though we know there are many cases of situations like this...she was nee Turner daughter of Charles Turner but she used her father's name as the name of her children's father or the truth that they were her step father's children would have caused too much scandal. Their real father was Josiah Osbaldeston who himself lived under the alias Jos. James after the bankruptcy case. Charles Turner was long dead when she used his name in this way.
I am still ploughing through all the data the threads have turned up there is such a mass and I am such a slow typist I am looking forward to Dinosaur's return Friday evening but have booked to go away for Sat -Monday evening can't wait for the next episode
Trees
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I am looking forward to Dinosaur's return Friday evening ................can't wait for the next episode
Trees
Trees ... me toooo ... I still think of ETO quite often .... ummmm I think I may be a liiiiiiiittttttttlllllle crazy/bonkers ;D
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Did we ever find him on the 1920 census?
H
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As ETO was born in Cheltenham I am wondering if he ever worked in one of the Spa baths.
It would make sense as he is describing himself as a hydrotherapist in New Zealand and the treatments mentioned in the letter like advert that appeared in "Daily Southern Cross, Volume XXXII, Issue 5763, 17 March 1876," and other dates sound like the ones undertaken at Droitwich Spa described by George James DEW in his Diary of a Relieving Officer in the 1860's
I imagine the treatments at a mineral water spa and at a Turkish baths would be very similar.
A second thought is that Spa treatments were and still are popular in germany so was Louise Weiss already familiar with such treatments before she met up with ETO.
What do others think or am I on the wrong line of thought?
Trees
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Hi Trees
from timeline;
1920 Alice living in NY with dau Ethel (who marries crazy Donald Duncan Sewart)
ummm so where was he in 1920 ...we know JTO died in 181921.... maybe he was going to his bro's funeral :-X
will look for him
deb
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did we find this earlier?
RG9 892 fo 11 p 18
I think this is Jos. and Mary Ann Lewis turner'd daughter Maria but look at the other visitor is it Ann huband as transcribed or HUBARD
remember Mary Ann Turner married a HUBBARD after she broke up with Jos.
I wonder if there was a connection
Trees ???
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Hello Trees and fellow Chatters. I'm back from Germany.
In answer to your recent posts, I think that ETO's first experience of Turkish baths and spas was at Burton's on Euston Road in London in 1862-64. He was just six when the family moved from Cheltenham to Birmingham. In the 1851 census his occupation is recorded as "Errand boy." On his 1859 Royal Artillery enlistment papers his occupation was listed as "Shoemaker."
The Maria Osbaldeston you found in the 1861 census is the daughter of Josiah Scudder Osbaldeston and Mary Ann Lewis Turner. However the visitor (Ann Huband) is too young to be Mary Ann Turner who was born in 1815. Also MAT didn't become Mary Ann Hubbard until Aug 1862.
Despite having searched under variant spellings, I have yet to find a death certificate or burial entry for Josiah Scudder Osbaldeston. Any suggestions?
Dinosaur
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I wondered if the Hubard visitor was a relation of James Hubbard we meet later
Do you know where ETO was in 1920 we have found Alice with Ethel had they split up?
Do you know what happened to Annie Mabel when ETO was in Addington jail?
So Josiah should have been in B'ham try putting a post on the Warwickshire board asking if anyone can suggest where to look What was the last address you have or himand when?
Trees
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Alexandra seems to have married a Herbert Potter BEARCE, and in 1937 they announced the birth of a son in the New York Times.
just spent an entire morning reading through this thread ::)
Looks like Alexandra is perhaps still alive (at least, she was in 2007 age 93)
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can't remember if this article has been mentioned-from http://www.fultonhistory.com/Fulton.html
Utica NY Sunday Journal 1896-1897 - 0395.pdf
"dr"Osbaldeston or Prof Turner will be remembered in this city in connection with Mrs Far, who is supposed to have eloped from Malone with him. It is said the two passed a week together in Utica under assumed names. Two years ago (86), "dr" Osbaldeston located in Watkins Sobulyer? county and assumed to be a physician from Jamestown. He managed to separate a wife from her husband and was obliged to leave"
or this New York NY Evening Telegram 1922 22 Jun Grayscale - 1107.pdf
Mrs. Ethel Turner Osbaldeston Stewart, charged with conspiracy to effect a bigamous marriage between Stewart and Norma Ehrenseller (wife no 4)and implicated in the theft of $2500. It rather sounds as though she was as good as her father-was she convicted?
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Hi all :)
Dinosaur ... welcome back :D When and where is the last sighting of JSO (b 1793) ??
Hi Mc8 :) Thanks for the info ...and yes I believe that Ethel was arrested ... will try to find the article.
I am very interested in Mrs Far as ETO was supposed to have had FOUR wives ... we have:
Annie Pratt # 1
Alice Agnes Moore # 3 ..I have just read an article here he states that when he left Germany (after the duel) he returned home to his wife and children article Auburn NY Citizen 1826. It also states that his 3rd marriage was in 1880
In the same article it states that the "step brother' of ETO went by the name Charles W Turner.
In 1851 when they are the James family , there was a brother Charles ...ETO' mother Mary Ann Turner was at that stage living openly with Josiah Turner james/Osbaldeston .... maybe ETO did not know at that stage that Josiah was his dad too as he had thought that Charles Pye Turner was his dad!
So did ETO's brother scam him?
Hope this makes sense ... or am I confused 8)
Louisa Weiss/ Lucas #4
so who is # 2 wife ??? It doesn't make sense as Annie Agnes Moore has Annie Mabel with her in 1881 UK census.
deb
added ... just read the article ... is Mrs Far the same person as Louise Weiss/lucas?
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geezzzzzzzzzzz just lost my post :(
will start again
From an article;
Nov 14th 1886 ETO and Mrs Metzger arrested in Montreal. His bail ($1700 ... :o) was paid by Edward J Mannix who it seems was security at Lake Titus.
It's rather strange that ETO and JTO cannot be found on the 1920 census as we know they are both still alive ....
searching
deb :)
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geezzzzzzzzzzz just lost my post :(
will start again
From an article;
Nov 14th 1886 ETO and Mrs Metzger arrested in Montreal. His bail ($1700 ... :o) was paid by Edward J Mannix who it seems was security at Lake Titus.
It's rather strange that ETO and JTO cannot be found on the 1920 census as we know they are both still alive ....
searching
deb :)
oh myyy
the Malone gazette reports that Osbaldeston's cottage at Lake Titus has been deeded to Capt E J Mannix by Mrs Osbaldeston for his loss as bondsman ...I bet Alice was P/Oed :o
Well this is not helping me find ETO in 1920
deb
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more info
the year he died he had supposedly celebrated his 85th b-day ...but a few days later he had produced a birth cert proving he as 99 years old! I wonder where he got that cert?!!!!! would that be his baptismal record ...?? did he forge it like his medical docs? he had also said that he had wanted to live past 100 yrs old .... I onder if someone killed him?
ahh it also states only 3 wives! so Louise must have been the 2nd, but how?
eeeeeeeeeeeeekkkkkkkkkkk getting caught up in ETO again ...Help meeeeee ;D ;D
deb
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more info
the year he died he had supposedly celebrated his 85th b-day ...but a few days later he had produced a birth cert proving he as 99 years old! I wonder where he got that cert?!!!!! would that be his baptismal record ...?? did he forge it like his medical docs? he had also said that he had wanted to live past 100 yrs old .... I onder if someone killed him?
ahh it also states only 3 wives! so Louise must have been the 2nd, but how?
eeeeeeeeeeeeekkkkkkkkkkk getting caught up in ETO again ...Help meeeeee ;D ;D
deb
no-I read the article that he committed suicide having previously sent a letter and a pair of PJs to an undertaker saying how he wanted to be laid out-will try to find it again
Monique
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this article shows a picture of hime (apparently he had striking red hair)-and is wearing a big fat medal on his chest-no doubt for some act of outstanding bravery Binghamton NY Press Grayscale 1929 b - 1186.pdf
this is the article Poughkeepsie NY Daily Eagle 1929 - 0281.pdf which talks about his letter to the undertaker, and also relates stories about how he tutored the Price of Wales, and that his mother's marriage to the earl of Anslow was annulled by the king ;D
and what was this one all about New York NY Evening Telegram 1905 Jan - Mar Grayscale - 0119.pdf
ETO treated Duke, an elderly tobacco tycoon who ended up marrying a fraudster of ETO's aquaintance in such a state he could remember nothing about it. I wonder if they cooked up something together which went wrong-ETO was a key witness against her (he said he knew her for 12 years under the names Desplaines, Drummond, Deane, Woodbury, Alice Webb. Interestingly, ETO 'treated' Duke before he was carried out of the house for the marriage. Weeks later, away from ETO's ministrations, he was miraculously improved
Monique
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As ETO was born in Cheltenham I am wondering if he ever worked in one of the Spa baths.
I'm not up to speed with this thread but can help you with this bit - no spa baths in Cheltenham!!
Just a few places where the rather errr delicious water could be sampled (I survived it but don't recommend it!)
;)
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Hi Monique
Nice to meet you :) Glad I am not searching alone !
ETO seems to contradict himself ...saying he wanted to live passed 100 and yet looking for cheap coffins and telling everyone what he wanted to wear.
Stille looking for ETO in 1920 .... no sign yet although I have found a Charles Wm Turner b 1845 England, clergyman living in Manhattan. ETO's brother Charles was also born in 1845 ........... :-X :-\ folloing all leads LOL
deb
Hi AR ......nice to see you back ...this has become quite a quest! We are still loving the search! :) hope you are well
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I'll tell you what is driving me bonkers with this addiction, is that every thread I follow, trying to locate the lost pieces of the jigsaw, I find Turners living next door.... though not Edwin, Frederick, Josiah etc Turners, but unknown Turners who may or may not provide missing links....
I have spent this evening checking on Alice Agnes Moore's Ludbrook(e) connection (Alberta used the name Ludbrooke for her paintings) and what do I find - Turners running the Norfolk village pub.
I seriously think that I am in need of therapy...........
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Hi Deb
I thought I'd try to update that timeline with just the stuff that isn't hearsay or ETOs own stories (so I missed out the bit about him watching the charge of the light brigade..)
What are german records like? One of the articles mentions a town in Prussia where he was reputedly imprisoned after killing White and another
1838Edwin Turner Q3 1838 Cheltenham ? Par Josiah Turner and Mary Ann
1839
1840
1841 Under TURNER, UK HO107/ 353/10 fo20 p 6
1844Ann PRATT was born 1844 Solihull daughter of Thomas and Ann nee Thorne
1851 Under JAMES, Uk
1854 Alice Agnes Moore (Turner/Osbaldeston) born 28 Sept 1854 Suffolk
1854 ETO moves to San Fransisco...supposedly , see passport application
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1859b Julian Turner Osbaldestone 25 dec 1859, Birmingham-supposedly as on death cert . Eto enlists Royal Artillery occupation was listed as "Shoemaker."
1860
1861 maybe employed at Turkish Baths ..left them in 1864 to go to Aus
1862 m Edwin Turner Osbaldeston & Ann Pratt 21 sep 1862 Birmingham Warks
186221st September 1862 at All Saints, Birmingham, Warwickshire
1864Josiah b, d 1864 London May 1864 London UK, also leaves for Aus according to Joseph Burton (owner of Turkish Baths, London)
1865
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1866b Annie Mabel TURNER I Wellington St Collingswood Melbourne
period between 1865 -1876
Annie disappears, ETO jailed/escapes, Aus
One newspaper article does state that ETO had been on a ball and chain for 10 years whilst serving his sentence in Aus!
ETO States in the Who's Who Magazine (of 1909) that he had been part of the Burke and Will's exploration team who had gone looking for new areas and to find out what happened to Ludwig Leichardt.... B&W had started out in 1861 and both died June 1861 ... so ETO was not in the party ... so how could Annie have been dragged off by a Kangaroo! Also there were no women in the party, just 15 men!!!! ETO and Annie Pratt only arrived in Aus circa 1864/5 (see post on next page)
1867ETO in prison Adelaide
1873Yatala Labour Prison, Adelaide. Prisoners’ Register, Vol. D, 1866-1871, folio 165. 13 Jan 1873…ETO release
1876 ETO spotted in NZ, is jailed there then escapes from Addington jail and returns to Melbourne to get his daughter, Annie mabel.
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1879 Alice agnes Moore/Turner/osbaldeston arrives in US ..she is consistent with this on censuses, naturalization record and passenger lists.
1880 ETO, Agnes, Annie TURNER living in Manhattan Edwin F Osbalditone = Alice a Moore may, Kings co, ny; also Augusta M A Turner born Rome, USA ( born after US 1800 census and 6 months prior to UK 1881 census) ...need to look for incoming passener list. B Ethel
1881 Alice, Annie and Augusta TURNER in Suffolk with her dad Josiah MOORE
1882 IGI ext Edwina Agnes Turner Osbaldeston 30 Jan 1882 Manhattan
1883Edwin Julian b Mar 1883, NY
1884Geneva b June 1884, NY
1885
1886Normandy/ie b July 1886 NY: "dr" Osbaldeston located in Watkins Sobulyer? county and assumed to be a physician from Jamestown. He managed to separate a wife from her husband and was obliged to leave": Nov 14th 1886 ETO and Mrs Metzger arrested in Montreal. His bail ($1700 ... ) was paid by Edward J Mannix who it seems was security at Lake Titus.
1887ETO naturalized 16 Sept 1887, NY
1888Francis b June NY; Annie mabel (Annie Pratt's dau) leaves home to marry Frederick Elliot Knowles Manhattan cert # 1761
.
1889
1890 Alberta Born June 1890 NY,; NY Directory has Osbaldeston massagers NY City Directory 1890 721 6th ave OSBALDESTONAgnes,Charles T ,Edwin T,Edwin T jnr, Francis Tjullian T. Julian Osbaldeston = Anna K Schwalb 30 april 1890 cook co Ill:
1891
1892
1893 ETO accused of Child Abuse nyt jun6
1894Daily Tribune, Sunday April 22 , 1894 school of massage-daughter Ethel get 'diploma'
1895
1896
1897
1898 Mrs Ethel J Osbaldeston and Kids leave UK 5 nov , arrive NY 12 Nov 1898
1899
1900 US Census ..2x Edwins ... 1 = PENN, 1= NYWest 63rd street:Francis Cook Co, Ill, OSBALDESTON Boarder White Married born Dec 1849 England of English parents, Massage treatment - immigration date 1883 wife Sarah
1901 ETO on killing spree in Germany, reported to German Embassy in Ny
1902ETO..passport application for son in PENN, Alice Agnes gets Naturalized, also Geneva leaves home to marry, report in newspaper Oct 27th to say she had not been abducted, Mother notfied (not dad!)
1903 ETO returns from Hamburg, 8 aug 1903 (to correct address in NY): 28 Jan: Geneva A. OSBALDESTON/Frederick D. MILLER, Manhattan
...how can he be in Germany 1901-1903 and in USA in 1902
Aug 15th 1903, Ms Lugas fearing for her life as "Prof." ETO threatens to kill her! Mrs Lugas aka Miss May is supposedly his WIFE! Mrs Lugas (with her daughter) had been housekeeper to the German guy that ETO had killed. (ETO got off the charges pleading insanity) ..this occurs 15 Aug 1903 a week after he has returned from Hamburg! could Miss May/Mrs Frank Lugus be Louise WEiss/Molzger??
1905jan. Treats elderly tobacco tycoon Duke prior to his marriage to fraudster Alice Desplaines who later remembers nothing. ETO reports her, says he has known her for 12 years
1910[DR Edwin Turner leaves Southampton , arr NY on 13 June 1910: US Census .. ETO, Alice, Alberta and Francis living in Manhattan .. census taken 29 April 1910, so maybe the above Dr. Edwin Turner is not "ours"
Alice Agnes leaves Southampton 10 sept 1910 arrives Ny Sept 18 , address; 218W 82nd St NY
1913 Alice Agnes leaves NY and Arrives UK 12 July 1913 on board Olympic
191921 December, arr 27 December 1919-Louise M. OSBALDESTON VESLY 23 Female married Dancer Mrs F.W. Lucas*, 170 W 66th St New York N.Y SS Caracas from San Juan, Puerto Rico
1920Alice living in NY with dau Ethel (who marries crazy Donald Duncan Stewart) .Normandy 29 with James H Siver editor 30, Kenneth 10 in Manhattan: 6 Mar: Ethel M. OSBALDESTON/Donald D. STEUART, Manhattan
1921
192222 jun Mrs. Ethel Turner Osbaldeston Stewart,(eto's dau) charged with conspiracy to effect a bigamous marriage between Stewart and Norma Ehrenseller (wife no 4)and implicated in the theft of $2500.
1923
1924
1925
1926ETO arrested for 45 year old theft: 30 Oct: Jessie OSBALDESTON/Wilfred ENDSOR, Queens B27
1927
1928
1929his letter to the undertaker,shoots himself twice, found by patrolman in his one-roomed shack made out of box wood
1930OSBALDESTON:Francis head 40, married , age at marriage 25, b NY, occ President, dried fruits,Olive wife 32, age at marriage 22, b Wisconsin, John E Turner/ Twiner bro-in-law, 46, wd, b NY, father Manager ?? Fruits
195607 Apr Mrs Geneva Agnes Miller, retired manager of a Womrath Book Store, New York City, died at her residence, 4725 15th Ave. S., Surviving are two brothers, John E. Turner and Frank T. Osbaldeston, St. Petersburg; and two sisters, Mrs Ethel T. Groves, St. Petersburg, and Mrs Norma A. Siver, New Milford
is that right?
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FAB!!!! Thanks for updating it ...Have read through quickly ...will reread.
deb :)
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from timeline
1910 [DR Edwin Turner leaves Southampton , arr NY on 13 June 1910: US Census .. ETO, Alice, Alberta and Francis living in Manhattan .. census taken 29 April 1910, so maybe the above Dr. Edwin Turner is not "ours"
this one def. is our ETO
Dr. Edwin T Osbaldeston
bc 1831
Departure: Southampton, England
Arrival: 23 Jun 1910 - New York, New York
now I can't find the PL for 13 June 1910 :-\
added ......ahhh now I see it set sail on 13 June 1910 ships name : Blucher
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More for Timeline
World War I Draft Registration Cards, 1917-1918
Francis S T Osbaldeston age 27
DOB ; July 18th, 1889 Ny
occ; Office Manager , Esstukay? Products
hard to read but looks like address ; Grand & Orleans ave
ditto ; wife
Residence: Chicago, Cook, Illinois
signed ; June 6th, 1917
1920 census Francis and Olive living in Cook co., IL (Frank = Corespondemt, Olive = Stenographer) living on Indiana Ave ...which was JTO's address in other censuses.
deaths;
Francis Turner Osbaldeston, died Jun 1968
- Pinellas, Florida
Olive Teel Osbaldeston, died Jan 1958
- Pinellas, Florida
doesn't seem that this couple had children.
deb
PS I remember seeing a newspaper article about Frank and Olive leaving Florida for a vacation with family in NY ...can't remember the date though.
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Good to see you're still pursuing the exploits of my great-grandfather. I'll add a couple of clarifications:
1900 census: ETO was enumerated twice. On June 1 he was in Pittsburgh where he'd been living since 1899 with his German mistress Louise Weiss and their daughter Mascot Louise who was born in August 1896. He falsified their first names on the census return. Then on June 6 he was in Manhattan with his wife and their 6 children.
ETO was in Germany in 1902-03, not 1901. According to the following source (Letter from ETO in State Prison, Saarbrücken, to US Embassy, Berlin, 24 Sept 1902. US Dept of State, US Embassy, Germany. RG84, UD Entry 24, Vol. 261, folios 511-516) he and his son Edwin Julian T O, sailed from NY to Antwerp on the Red Star Line's ship S.S. Southwark on April 9, 1902. On his way to Germany he stopped in Luxemburg and had business cards printed in English, German and French with his photo on the back.
ETO went to Germany to try to gain custody of his daughter Mascot. Mascot and her mother Louise Weiss had left NY in Sept 1901 ostensibly to visit Louise's mother. By letter Louise had told him that she wasn't going to return to him. ETO was infuriated as well as being insanely jealous.
It was in the village of Oberstein (now Idar-Oberstein) northeast of Saarbruecken on May 5, 1902 that ETO killed Louise's employer, carbine manufacturer and widower Eduard Wild and wounded one of his workmen who subsequently died of his wounds.
The archivist at the Idar-Oberstein Archives very kindly sent me four articles about the case that appeared in the local newspaper. ETO was captured and take to the state prison at Saarbruecken where he spent the next 13 months (except for 6 weeks when he was taken to a state hospital in Bonn for psychiatric evaluation). In the end his case was dismissed on grounds of insanity. There are several letters regarding his case in the State Dept records at the National Archives in College Park, Maryland.
ETO's attempt to gain custody of his youngest child was strikingly similar to his having taken custody of his oldest daughter, Annie Mabel, in 1875 (possibly after having killed her mother, his first wife Ann Pratt). ETO took Annie Mabel from Adelaide to Sydney and then from Sydney to San Francisco. He was ship's physician on the SS MacGregor which arrived in SF on Oct 27, 1875. After a stay of 6 weeks they then embarked on the SS Mikado on Dec 10, 1875 and arrived in New Zealand on Jan 3, 1876. They were there until mid-Oct 1876.
As far as I'm aware the 6-week stay in San Francisco was ETO's first trip to the US. I think we can safely ignore his claim that he first went to the US in 1854. I know that Alice Agnes Moore says that she arrived in the US in 1879. However one of you has found that they arrived in New York on the SS Erin on Feb 26, 1880.
ETO was the first member of his family to arrive in the US. I believe that he then paid for some of his siblings to travel from England to New York between 1883 and 1885. His brother Charles had emigrated to Queensland in 1862 under the name Charles Turner. I found the name of the ship on the Internet but don't have the info with me here in the UK.
The Charles W. Turner who was arrested in Rochester doesn't have anything to do with ETO. ETO committed so many crimes that he occasionally was blamed for ones he didn't commit!
For those interested in ETO's timeline, please see my previous posts about ETO's service in the Royal Artillery (from Jan 1859 to mid-July 1862). Also ETO was in Yatala Labour Prison outside Adelaide, South Australia from Dec 1867 until Jan 1873.
Hope this helps.
Dinosaur
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I forgot to mention the Ludbrooks. Alice Agnes Moore's maternal grandfather was miller Daniel Ludbrook who lived for many years in Framlingham, Suffolk.
He got into a spot of trouble and was in the Sufolk County Gaol in Ipswich at the time of the 1841 census.
In 1841 ETO was in Cheltenham
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Dinosaur You have probably told us somewhere, but what was ETO's occupation on his marriage to Annie Pratt?
He left the army July 1862 and married Annie Sept 1862, so a short courtship? bearing in mind if they were married by banns they would have had to give 3 weeks notice of the marriage.
I wondered if he was working at the Turkish baths in Birmingham?
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deaths;
Francis Turner Osbaldeston, died Jun 1968
- Pinellas, Florida
Olive Teel Osbaldeston, died Jan 1958
- Pinellas, Florida
doesn't seem that this couple had children.
Only two of ETO's children had children:
Edwin Julian Osbaldeston (John Edwin Turner) had a son Donald Turner
Normandie (Norma) Alice Osbaldeston Siver had a son, Kenneth Ludbrook Siver
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Above post is a reply to debUSA #249
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Hello jaywit. On his 1862 marriage certificate ETO's occupation/profession is listed as "Agent." I haven't found any hints as to how he was occupied from mid-July until his marriage in Sept. According to family notes he met Ann Pratt at Acock's Green on Sept 1, 1862. So, yes, it was an extremely short courtship--or more like love at first sight followed by the banns and the marriage!
I can't prove it but I don't think ETO worked in Turkish baths until he moved to London following his marriage.
It was on March 7, 1865 that ETO and Ann Pratt sailed from Plymouth to Queensland on the Lobelia. Accounts of the arrival of the Lobelia on July 2 and the ship's quarantine for a month can be found in the Brisbane Courier which is on the Australian newspapers website.
There are articles about Turkish baths in Australia in which ETO worked (in Melbourne, Ballarat and Adelaide) in 1866-67 but those newspapers (for those dates) are not yet on the National Library of Australia's website.
Lastly, in addition to two grandsons by two of his children by Alice Agnes Moore, ETO also had two grand-daughters by his youngest daughter Mascot (his daughter by his German mistress Louise Weiss). Both grand-daughters are still living, one in Texas, the other in South Carolina.
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Dinosaur They married on 21st September if I remember correctly. Looking that date up on the day calculator it was a Sunday.
So if they were married by banns then I don't know if the banns could be read on the day of marriage or not.
If not then the banns would be read on 31/8, 7/9 and 14/9. If they could be read on the same day then they would be read on 7/9, 14/9 and then 21/9. Very tight bearing in mind it was a busy city church, they would need to see the vicar, arrange for the banns to be read etc.
I wonder what he told the vicar as an excuse to get married so quickly?
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Thanks for that, jaywit. On my next visit to the Society of Genealogists I'll look for the banns in the registers for All Saints, Hockley. It could well be that the Sept 1 date in the family notes is incorrect. In addition to telling lots of fibs, ETO was also not very good at remembering dates, people's names, place names ...
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Hi everyone I am back and trying to catch up with the latest posts. ETO still has so much to reveal I am now curious about the wife separated from her husband mentioned. Dinosaur did I read somewhere there was trouble with a client in Australia and some one accused him of seducing his daughter must do a quick re read through my notes
H
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Lastly, in addition to two grandsons by two of his children by Alice Agnes Moore, ETO also had two grand-daughters by his youngest daughter Mascot (his daughter by his German mistress Louise Weiss). Both grand-daughters are still living, one in Texas, the other in South Carolina.
is Alexandra no longer alive then? ( she was in 2007 age 93 in Plano, Texas-her descendents are still alive). Interesting that she also weaved a particularly exotic history.
;D ;D ;DETO reminds me of an ex colleague who arrived at my british university and proceeded to try to schmooze senior management. I was asked to mentor him and when criticised for an inappropriate response to a student blew a gasket and became very nasty. A bit of research into his cv showed fabrication, including a Phd bought for $30 from an office in Bangkok. He 'resigned' from us, and moved to London School of Economics and is now on the MBA programme at a chinese university business school.
Like ETO lots of things on his current cv have a bit of truth in them-
educated at Yale-maybe he applied
head of Italian Practice of McKinsey & Company-he was an employee for a time
Then President of consumer business of Ciba-Geigy (pharma, Switzerland.)-an employee
Later, VP of Italian practice of Booz Allen Hamilton-an employee
editor of an international marketing journal-a web page with 8000 hits
governor Davos think tank-only a delegate at a conference
earned PhD-bought in Bangkok
Prof. of Business Studies at Jilin University-maybe once employed, not a prof
also a personal friend of Berlusconi-that could well be true as they seem to be birds of a feather!
seems like the same personality type (there is a Tory MP who went to prison who is not dissimilar..). Names removed to protect the innocent ;D
Monique
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Monique
'also a personal friend of Berlusconi-that could well be true as they seem to be birds of a feather!'
Silvio Berlusconi or Jim Berlusconi from Pizza You Like?
;D ;D ;D
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Now Monique do you know any one needing a reseach subject on a psychology course we'd love to know what was driving ETO did he actually believe his own stories was he in a parallel universe?
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Now Monique do you know any one needing a reseach subject on a psychology course we'd love to know what was driving ETO did he actually believe his own stories was he in a parallel universe?
Trees and what about Julian and Josiah, both strangers to the truth at times. Is it in the genes or in the upbringing?
Now someone could get their teeth into that one.
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Has anyone seen this. Found by Google search
http://www.nram.govt.nz/record.php?id=11707&parent=nramindexbyvolume&volume=Y
Ian C
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Found this also. May have already been found.
http://www.archive.org/details/empirestatenotab00staff
Open the flip book option, search on the name osbaldeston. There is a photograph of him.
Ian C
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Hi Guy
I have been questioning Annie Pratt's parents ... no offence ....
She was under age when marrying ETO 3 or 4 weeks after meeting him! Did parents have to give their consent when Banns were read? Not sure on how these things worked ...Annie Pratt bc 1844, married ETO 1862 after only knowing him for 3 or 4 weeks :-\ :-X
deb
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Can't remember if I have seen them here or not but there are a few references to ETO on Google Books if you do a search for his name. Mainly New York things.
Ian C
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Thank you Ian yes we have found those didn't he look distinguished apparently even when he was living in a shack made from orange boxes he wore a carnation and looked prosperous. Dread to think how he financed his many projects like his travel expenses, bringing his siblings to America, buying the land at Lake Titus and the Chasm. How much did Alice know of his life of crime I wonder.
Deb I too am wondering about my 2XGt Grandfather Thomas PRATT
Ann's mother Ann nee THORNE died between 1851 and 1857
I think her youngest daughter was
June qtr 1851 Pratt Ellen Solihull 16 564
all the other children were Solihull but there were others in the B'ham area However I can't see an Ann death in the period in Solihull and several in B'ham
Thomas then married a widow Hannah Elizabeth Smith in 1858 so may be Ann rebelled against her step mother
In 1861 her next sister was a live in servant and little Ellen was with a married brother James
In fact its strange in 1861 Ann is with her father Thomas and with them are two of her sisters one a widow and one married with her husband and daughter no Hannah where was she? Had Ann nee Thorne died or had she left Thomas??
I'll keep checking
H
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Trees Ann Pratt is still alive in 1861 living in Bordesley Birmingham she is under Anne Pratt ref is RG9/2173/20/36.
She says she is married is a nurse and is down as a visitor.
I put Ann* born Exeter Devon 1806 +/- 2 living Warwickshire to find her.
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Oh I've been trying all sorts of combos well done so is the marriage to Hannah Smith a red herring We did initially think that the Hannah on the 71 census was Ann Thorne but then I found the marriage of Hannah and jumped to conclusions
On the 71 census there is an Edward Smith in the same House to add strength to the Hannah marriage oh dear what a mess back to the drawing board. Was the Hannah really Ann with the birth place wrong?
RG10/3130 fo 46 p27
H
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An Ann died age 67 Birmingham March qtr 1874 and a Thomas age 70 in Birmingham Dec qtr 1879 So that fits very well
So why did Ann run off and marry ETO the witnesses were his mum and step dad no one from her family did they even know she had married I wonder, Did she lie about her age her age Did Dinosaur say anything about age on the certificate? must read back
H
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Trees I'm sure Hannah is Ann forget the incorrect birth place.
Although Edward Smith and his wife and child are in the same house they are a seperate household and with Smith you can't assume anything.
I agree we need to know what Ann said about her age on the marriage cert.
I'm sure ETO told her tales of his adventures and bowled her over, but I can't see what was in the marriage for him, apart from someone to look after him.
Ann came from such a different background to him, to me I just can't see why he married her.
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maybe she took comfort in a (con)mans arms and one thing lead to another :-\
there are so many assumptions you could make but really only she and ETO will know the truth
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Yes Toni but it all happened so quickly, at the longest we can possibly manage it there was only 8 weeks between a first meeting and the marriage. If we believe ETO there was only 3 weeks. So no time for any possible pregnancy to show. Then to end up dead somewhere in Australia, no death recorded.......
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Just checked the Edward Smith on 1871 was just married to Ann's Sister Eliza Edward was only 21 in 1871 and they had a 9mo son Eliza should have known better she was 24 but it shows that Thomas and Ann stood by them as they had in 1861 with daughter Harriett and her husband both 24 with a 2 yr old daughter living with Thomas and poor daughter Sarah who married in Sep qtr 1859 and was widowed in June qtr 1860 she too was living with dad 1861. No I think it was Ann going off the rails rather than poor parenting. was she away from her nice sheltered home as a servant met the smoothie ETO and the rest became history I doubt we will ever know
H
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Trees
I can see how Ann fell for ETO but I'm sure in my own mind ETO didn't do anything unless there was something in it for him.
The way he treated his children later on makes you wonder if he was mentally unstable at times.
I still can't see why he needed to marry in such a rush.
I'm off out for the day see if anything else turns up.
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Thank you Ian yes we have found those didn't he look distinguished apparently even when he was living in a shack made from orange boxes he wore a carnation and looked prosperous. Dread to think how he financed his many projects like his travel expenses, bringing his siblings to America, buying the land at Lake Titus and the Chasm.
well we know about the theft and fraud. I wonder how many of his patients suddenly passed away and left their money under the bed? The tobacco tycoon in the fraudulent marriage was the founder of british american tobacco and very wealthy-(no idea how ETO came to treat him, but I've no doubt ETO snitched because he thought there was something in it for him. As for the psychology, he seems to be a true psychopath- gratification in criminal, sexual, or aggressive impulses and the inability to learn from past mistakes.They gain satisfaction through their antisocial behavior and lack remorse for their actions-good description here http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htm
Monique
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Monique that is a really good link gosh it describes ETO to a T.
Many thanks
I did see somewhere a series of adverts that he had placed advertising the services of private nurses I wondered if Alice was sent out in that capacity she was described as a nurse on one of the censuses If a client asked for a "Mail order Male" nurse I suppose he went himself It was that Duke case where he as nurse called Dr sent for the Dr rather showing up the falsehood of the title
H
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Dinosaur who were the parants of Frances TURNER niece of Frederick TURNER on the 1871 census please? Do Frances and Frederick marry ?
H
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I did see somewhere a series of adverts that he had placed advertising the services of private nurses I wondered if Alice was sent out in that capacity she was described as a nurse on one of the censuses If a client asked for a "Mail order Male" nurse I suppose he went himself It was that Duke case where he as nurse called Dr sent for the Dr rather showing up the falsehood of the title
H
did you also find the article on the adverts he placed wanting men to be paid for experimental surgery in Venezuela? No end of applicants apparently. There was a follow-up article to say that the first survived, second died and the third a 'complete success'....
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Yes the poor selected fellow (No 4) died and hadn't received anything other than his passage to Ecuador apparently ETO was acting as agent. The experiment went well and the patient was healling but was smoking and drinking too soon and so died :'( He was selected because he was ex military(navy) very fit and had no relatives
Times must have been extremely hard
H
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Hello Trees and fellow Chatters. I've just returned from three days in Oxfordshire where I was gathering information regarding ETO's ancestors. He's descended from the Oxfordshire branch of the Osbaldestons who first appear in the records in Lancashire in the 12th century.
In answer to your question, ETO's older brother Frederick Turner married his first cousin Frances Maria Turner, daughter of Charles Pye Turner [junior] and Maria Lewington Turner.
His 1871 census return lists Frederick Turner, widower, 36, living with his son Frederick, 8; his sister [should be half-sister] Maria Turner [should be Osbaldeston], unmarried, 40, born in Woodstock, Oxfordshire; and his niece [should be cousin] Frances Turner, unmarried, 18, born in Reading, Berkshire. His occupation is listed as “Volunteer Adjutant.”
Regarding the newspaper articles about the man who went to South America to serve as a medical guinea pig, I suspect that ETO invented the whole thing to get his name in the papers. What makes me think so is the fact that ETO calls the man Ferdinand Pietrich. However that was the name of the owner of the Turkish baths in Melbourne where ETO worked in 1866!
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Hi Dinosaur I hope you had a successful week.
What another twist in the tale what did he stand to gain other than notoriety?
Have you got any idea or a theory as to why he married Ann Pratt?she was well under age and there doesn't seem to be any mention of her parents involvement in the marriage she should have had their consent.
Do you know who looked after Annie Mabel in NZ? was she in counsel care?
H
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what do you make of the evidence of Captain Fitzurse in the Brooklyn Daily Eagle March 31 1926 clearing ETO of the horse theft
Was it a fiction made up by the reporter or did some one relay go to the reporter with that amazing story? Did ETO pay someone to do it or was the whole thing a spoof? It certainly is one of the funniest reports I have ever read.
Was it infact written by Don Marquis??
H
Added yes it was Captain Peter Fitzurse was a character of Don Marquis so that answers that
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The Brooklyn Daily Eagle printed this story a day too early -- they should've published it on April 1 !!!
Trees, in answer to your question about who was looking after Annie Mabel while ETO was in jail in New Zealand, have a look at the following articles on the PapersPast website
"'Doctor' Turner," Lyttelton Times (Christchurch, NZ), 31 Aug 1876, p. 2.
"Larceny of a coat," Star (Christchurch, NZ), 16 Oct 1876, p. 2.
It was probably not long after his release on bail on Oct 2 that ETO -- dressed in female attire -- went to the house where Annie Mabel was staying, collected her and headed to the nearby port of Lyttelton. There they embarked on a steamer to Melbourne. In Melbourne they boarded the SS Durham bound for London. They had spent just over nine months in New Zealand.
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Trees, in answer to your question about who was looking after Annie Mabel while ETO was in jail in New Zealand, have a look at the following articles on the PapersPast website
do you have the link for that site? I can't find it
Monique
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http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast
be warned if you put DoctorTurner you get 3180 hits!
I'm ploughing through found some little beauties
H
Added no I cant find it either I've looked through all 3180 hits ;D picking out the 1876 ones only but I just cant find the Lyttleton paper ???
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The nearest i have found is a report in the Timaru Herald 18 oct 1876 reporting an item in The Lyttleton Times of 17th Oct saying he had yet again skipped bail and had been missing for several days it apears "that he left Lyttleton in female attire...by one of the coastal steamers...Inspector Feast holds £200 belonging to Turner....security for his appearance to answer ....stealing Mr Cwle's coat"
no mention of Annie Mable
Quote of the day from Timaru Herald 29 August 1876 page 3 " ...Turner appears to have some sort of objection to remaining in prison with charges hanging over his head..." ;D
H
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oops! I've just remembered that the Lyttelton Times article was one of several that were sent to me by the genealogy librarian at the main library in Christchurch, NZ several years ago.
Prior to the creation of the PapersPast website I sent him photocopies of the NZ-related excerpts (now online) from ETO's diary in exchange for copies of ETO-related articles from several NZ newspapers. Apologies for misleading you.
The Lyttelton Times article that I cited mentions that Annie Mabel was staying with a Mrs. Lodge.
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You're forgiven :) lead to finding a few more bits ::)
Can you let us have extractswhen you get home please. was Mrs Lodge a care worker ? was it a children's refuge? I can't find the article Deb found about Annie Mabel giving evidence at an ETO trial do you have a ref for that by any chance?
H
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Hello Trees. I fly back to California tomorrow. Once my brain cells have caught up with me -- which may take a few days -- I'll dig out the Lyttelton Times articles and send them to you. I'm pretty sure I also have a copy of the article that Deb mentioned. Bye for now.
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You're forgiven :) lead to finding a few more bits ::)
Can you let us have extractswhen you get home please. was Mrs Lodge a care worker ? was it a children's refuge? I can't find the article Deb found about Annie Mabel giving evidence at an ETO trial do you have a ref for that by any chance?
H
I'd be surprised if such arrangements were in place then-it was probably some informal arrangement by someone who took pity on her when she was effectively abandoned (unless she had money to pay her way in a lodging house or similar, or another woman ETO schmoozed...)-better than the equivalent of the workhouse
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Hi all,
fascinating research.
I followed up on the Knowles deaths in the Carlyle Cemetery which is as stated between the towns of Rutherglen and Wahgunyah in North East Victoria Australia only 30 minutes from where I live and where some of the people I am researching are buried.
Annie Mabel Knowles d 1935 aged 58 est dob 1877, was the daughter of Henry Knowles and and Lucy Ann Hook Victorian death registration 16890. Can't find a Victorian birth yet
John Knowles aged 76 son of Robert Knowles and Sarah Cameron reg 18791 born Ballarat 1862 reg 645
So most probably no connection at all except the coincidence of names.
Can be search for a small fee here https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/home and ordered for online pickup for a fee or snail mail for a larger fee. Should give places of birth, spouses , children etc. if you want to be really sure.
What were Annie Pratt's parent's names?
regards
Robyn
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Hi Robyn.
Ann PRATT's parents were Thomas and Ann nee Thorne she was their 9th child (12 in all)born1844 in Solihull Warwickshire. Thomas was first a tanner but later a Railway Porter
I don't think any of the others ever left the UK
Annie Mable married Frederick Knowles in New York so I doubt that she died in Australia its her mum Ann Osbaldeston nee Pratt who died there possibly murdered by ETO he definitely left Australia with the daughter Annie Mable and has been found in NZ and the USA with her
Isn't it a complex but fascinating story did you read part 1 too?
H
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Does this mean the rollercoaster is off again...? I enjoyed the Part 1 so much, could do with a bit more excitement in my life!
Greensleeves, the casual bystander
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Trees,
read it links and all.
matches well this search which is equally as addictive, intense and ongoing:
part one http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,383665.375.html
part two http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=412225.new#new
and sub searches:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,418431.msg2859681.html#msg2859681
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,390323.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,386064.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,393268.0.html
beware you get caught. Totally different topic than you rogue but still a mystery woman.
regards
Robyn
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Trees
Did you note in the document that Ann Osbaldeston was also to be charged with housebreaking with her husband and Wivel? SMH 26/11/1867
Perhaps she went to gaol as well. She may have died in gaol which might account for her disappearance. Not sure what procedure was re registering deaths of proisoners in SA at that time. :-\
Found info on the1874 act but this would be later than the period she may have been in prison
http://dspace.flinders.edu.au/dspace/bitstream/2328/2796/1/101874.pdf
HaS anyone access to this publication
http://www.gould.com.au/South-Australian-RS-4-Deaths-in-Public-Instit-p/gbb035.htm
Have you come across the trial records yet.(date of first court appearance 26/11/1867)
Another thought we know from the newspaper reports that his daughter was in a house in Christchurch (1876) can we get the address and check electoral rolls/census for NZ if available.
found this intriguing snippet
Official Documents on the Case of Ann Pratt, the Reputed Authoress of a Certain Pamphlet, entitled "Seven Months in the Kingston Lunatic Asylum, and What I Saw there." (Kingston) 56 pages, 1860. Health. Hospitals. Asylums. Psychiatry. Lunatics. Ann Pratt. Kingston. Jamaica. Exceptionally scarce. RES
here http://www.books.ai/9th/Oa-Ol.htm
probably not connected at all but Jamaica was on the route from USA to Australia at that time and it sounds like the sort of thing ETO might promote.
Robyn
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Husbands were responsible for their wives behaviour in those days
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For anyone who may have an interest in Mascot Obaldiston Vesely, who was a ballerina in Anna Pavlova's company under the name Mascot Moscovina, I am in possession of 20+ letters to a close friend of hers describing her entire life, marriage, work with Pavlova and various events surrounding her life. We are music antiquarians and the group of letters are for sale, along with a photograph, scrapbooks she made of her time with Pavlova and other materials. She states in the letter she was born in 1894 upstate New York to a British physician and American mother, baptised at Trinty Church in NYC. Her last letter written in 1920 shows her still dancing, however, she states she has pleurisy and consumption. As the letters went to a dear friend and stop there, one can only think the outcome was not a good one.
We may be contacted at (*).
Bill
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Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
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How odd we thought Mascot was the daughter of Louisa WEISS a German lady was she also inventive when it comes to family history? On the 1900 census she was 3 so that is about 2 years out too and that census has her born in England but if her father filled the form in there is no reason to believe that
I really love this family they are far larger than life
Trees
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She state her Mother was Louisa White, who she claims was American. Obviously if she had been German Louisa Weiss is the proper name. However, she clearly states in the letter she was American and her Father Edward Pie Osbaldiston M.D. was British.
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Transcription of this letter:
"I am this Louise Mascot Obaldiston Born August 9th 1896 Born Lake Titus, camp mascot twelve miles from the nearest city Malone New York State (Lake Titus) is in the Aderondacks mountains near the boarder of Canada and at the time I was born was a wilderness. Christened at Trinity Church Wall Street N. Y. City Father, Edward Pie Osbaldiston M.D. English, Mother Louisa White American, Marries Louis Vesely Czech Bohemian Chicago August 2nd 1916 Left New York for South America tour with Pavlova Feb. 8th 1917…Baby born Pittsburgh Pennsylvania Dec. 23rd 1916, Mascot Louise Pavlova Vesely. Such is the sad history of my life, weep dear friends and be glad thine is not like wish and as now my hand is tired and weary and you are dreary of hearing from me……"
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Well that fits Louisa Weiss was Edwin Osbaldeston's mistress and we knew Louise Mascot was born in Lake Titus which was owned by Edwin and lost by him when he jumped bail having been convicted with Louisa for theft from a store in Malone they were arrested in Canada.. Her mother went on to marry fellow German Frank Lucas and Louise Mascot is with Edwin a physicianand his wife Alice on the 1900 census in Pennsylvania. We tink this Alice was really Louisa Wiess the age fits and Edwin a professor also listed with his real wife Alice and her children in New York the censuses being taken on different days)
Her father started life as Edwin Turner and as he went on adds first Osbaldeston then Pie to the name we tend to refer to him as ETO If you haven't done so do read the two parts of this thread it really is incredible. I have given Dinosaur the eyes up to your post she is a granddaughter of ETO and preparing his history I am sure she will be in touch (I relate to his first wife Ann Pratt who disappeared in Australia possibly murdered by ETO but we can't prove it)
Trees
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I'm with you Trees--brilliant story of conmen and women across continents
I wonder if any of them were ordinary folk who believed the stories? Or did they all just chose to bury the truth and the evidence? Maybe the only one was Ann pratt, poor girl
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Sadly I doubt we will ever know the fate of Ann PRATT but I don't think she was unaware of his activities in Australia after all they took two cart loads of stolen goods from her house. They traced him when Ann tried to pawn a musical box from one of the burglaries Ann must have wondered how ETO had come by it. She was arrested with him but released. I think up to then she was genuinely in love with him and was disillusioned by his arrest for multiple burglaries before disappearing I hate to think she abandoned Mabel so did ETO murder her when he took Mabel off to N.Z. We just can't find anything about her disappearance :'(
ETO was not above leaving his women to save his own skin. Poor Mascot's mother was arrested with him for theft from a store he put his property at Lake Titus up for bail leaving Loiusa Weiss to face the music alone
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Did you ever find where Dr. Edwin Turner Osbaldeston died? If not, he died in Asbury Park NJ, Feb. 18 1929. His ending is reported in the Chicago Tribune Feb. 18, 1929.
Also, the wife of the bigamist Donald D. Stewart was an Ethel Turner Osbaldeston. She was arrested in San Francisco in 1922 according to the NY Evening Telegram of June 21, 1922.
Also found the tale of his death in the Brooklyn Eagle: Part 1- https://bklyn.newspapers.com/image/59872008/?terms=osbaldeston
Part 2- https://bklyn.newspapers.com/image/59872020
There are more articles in the Bklyn Eagle if you search under his last name.
Apparently his dau. Geneva A.T. Miller of River's Edge NJ inherited his estate and he was cremated according to the Asbury Park Press March 4, 1929.
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For all those who contributed to and/or followed this thread, you may be interested to know that a comprehensive biography of Edwin Turner OSBALDESTON was published in 2017. Please consider purchasing a copy of An Uncommon Criminal: The Extraordinary Life of Edwin Turner Osbaldeston. ISBN 978-0-9982981-0-8. Hardback, 172pp, 188 illustrations (photos, maps, scans of artwork), appendixes, index. $25.00 plus postage via PayPal to kensonsiver@aol.com. Apply to author for postage rates from USA.
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Dear All,
Alois Vesely (Luis Veseloff) was my great-grandmother's brother. We have postcards from his travels with the Pavlova ballet group. All his siblings were born in the Czech Republic. I will check my records regarding his birth. He was definitely not a count, though. His father worked for a construction bank.
The message on the last photo is in Czech. It says "To a beloved sister, sweet memory dedicated by her brother Alois Vesely", and the place listed is Buenos Aires.