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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: fedelmar on Monday 04 May 09 04:00 BST (UK)
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Liverpool Annie suggest that I post this here as she believed you all liked a challenge. Both Tim and I would be grateful for any help you can give us with these lads :)
Bright Blessings
Sandra
www.fromelles.net
PS: Forgot to mention that the Battle of Fromelles apart from being WW1 took place July 1916 :)
Of the 192 Australians believed buried at Pheasant Wood, Fromelles, quite a number were originally born in the UK. Although a few emigrated with their immediate families, many listed their next of kin as still residing in various parts of the UK.
The following list is those UK-born Australian soldiers buried at Pheasant Wood for whom no descendant has been identified.
If anyone is able to assist with locating descendants who may still reside in the UK, we would be exceptionally grateful to hear from you.
397 Private Douglas CASWELL
Born: Powyke, Worcestershire, England
NOK: Eberron and Sophie CASWELL (parents)
More at: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,379789.0.html
1252 Lance Corp Sydney DENNIS
Born: London, Middlesex
NOK: William and Elizabeth Broad DENNIS (parents)
Address: 20 Guildersfield Rd, Streatham, London
889 Private Henry GARDINER (GARDNER)
Born: Whitewell, Yorkshire
NOK: Elizabeth Ann ASHTON (sister)
Address: 92 Victoria Rd, Walton Le Dale, Preston, Lancashire
1274 Corporal Robert Courtney GREEN
Born: Battersea, London
NOK: Augustus Phillip and Jane GREEN (parents)
Address: 168 Ashley Road, Upper Parkstone, Dorset
3819 Private James John HARRIS
Born: Kingston, Dublin, Ireland
NOK: James and Kate HARRIS (parents)
Address: East Pier Battery, Kingston, Dublin, Ireland
842 Sergeant Charles Stevens HILL
Born: East Molesey, Kingston on Thames, Surrey
NOK: Alexander and Ellen HILL (parents)
Address: 31 Spring Gardens, East Molesey, Surrey
689 Private Arthur Mossop JAMES
Born: Paddington, London
NOK: Albert and Susan JAMES (parents)
Address: 240 Guiness Bldgs, Draycott Ave, Chelsea, London
1624 Private John (Jack) T. JOYCE
Born: Wolverhampton, Staffordshire
NOK: Mary ROSE (mother)
Address: Cambois, Northumberland
NOK: Robert, Nellie, Edwin and Mary ROSE (half-siblings)
Address: Cambois, Northumberland
2462 Private Walter PHEASANT
Born: Bow, London
NOK: R.F. PHEASANT (father)
Address: 4 Barry Ave, Stamford Hill, London
NOK: Ethel PHEASANT (sister)
Address: 15 Trellis St, Malmsbury Rd, Bow, London
more at: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,379859.0.html
4581 Private Benjamin RICHARDSON
Born: Blaxall, Suffolk
NOK: Benjamin RICHARDSON (father)
Address: Blaxall, Tunstall, Suffolk
1312 Private Horace Frederick ROBINSON
Born: Gillingham, Kent
NOK: John ROBINSON (father)
Address: 2 Galley Hill Terrace, London Rd, Greenhill, Kew
More at: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,380063.0.html
1216 Corporal James Hugh ROSS
Born: Stirling, Scotland
NOK: James A. and Alice T. ROSS (parents)
Address: Parents moved to Australia with family and lived in Northcote, Victoria.
- another reference was given to Mrs J CLARK (sister/aunt?) of 9 Hillingdon Gardens, Cardonald, Glasgow, Scotland
More at: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,379841.0.html
4873 Private Joseph SCOTT
Born: South Shields, Durham
NOK: Mrs Margaret MORDUE (sister)
Address: 5 Cornelius Square, South Shields, Durham
1046 Private Robert Grieve Moncrieff SCOTT
Born: Perth, Perthshire, Scotland
NOK: Andrew Moncrieff and Christian Bryden Grieve SCOTT (parents)
Address: Upper Kier, Thornhill, Dumfrieshire, Scotland
690 Corporal John TOOLE
Born: Liverpool
NOK: George Henry and Martha TOOLE (parents)
3 Mountjoy St, Everton, Liverpool
239 Sergeant William WASS (MM MID)
Born: Winsley, Derby, Derbyshire
Previously served with the Sherwood Forresters in Boer War, China, India, Malay, Egypt
NOK: Germain WASS (father)
Address: Morend Farm, Chellaston, Derbyshire
More at: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,379920.0.html
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Thanks for sharing it with us, ;) hope you get the help you need.
My husbands grandfather and his brother were at Fromelles.
Thankfully both survived - one lost an eye and the other taken prisoner.
Margaret
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Sandra
Do you have estimated dates of birth from their attestation papers? We can use that to work on the censuses for siblings and passenger lists etc.
Glen
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I would love to follow this thread. ;)
I heard or read that many Australians have come forward for DNA tests, but very few English. (silly me, cannot remember the numbers or the source :-[)
Just looking at the names, there are some fairly uncommon sounding ones there, so I hope relatives will be able to be located, but of course it is more difficult working forwards. I wouldn't be surprised if we end up with fairly substantial trees for some of these chaps. ;D Ads in local newspapers may help if we get stuck.
[Fantastic work you are doing Sandra - lovely website too.]
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Just to make a start ;)
WALTER PHEASANT
1901 census RG13/341/21/34
51 Appian Rd, Poplar
Richard F Pheasant head 44 tailor b London City
Mary wife 43 do
Richard A son 19 clerk b Bromley
Ethel daur 17 Reeler do
Maud M 16 do do
Albert G 14 messenger boy do
Lily daur 12 b Sydenham
Rose 9 do
Walter 7 b Finsbury
Daisy 5 b Bow
Marriages Sept 1919
Ethel Pheasant = Walter H Lygo (good another unusual name ;D)
Poplar 1c 970
........................
Mar Sept 1909
Richard Arthur Pheasant = Elizabeth Hannah Dye or Selina Sarah A Sellen West Ham
4a 353
Mar Sept 1911
Maud M Pheasant = Thomas W Brown or Harry J Sanderson
Poplar
1c 812
Mar Jun 1916
Lily Pheasant = Henry De Grey
Marylebone
1a 1321
Mar Jun 1915
Daisy D Pheasant = Frederick Godfrey
Southwark
1d 391
Cannot see marriage for Albert G (though there is a possible Albert no initial G)
Cannot see marriage for Rose
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JOHN TOOLE
1901
20 Everon Brow
Everton
Liverpool
George Toole head mar 48 spice warehouseman (all family b Liverpool)
Martha wife 43
Richard son single 24 spice warehouseman
George son single 22 railway porter
Elizabeth 20 tailoress
Susannah daur 18
Alfred son 16 spice mill labr
John son 14 tobacco worker
William 9
Ted 6
Mar Sept 1902
Richard Toole = Mary Buxton or Elena Harvey
West Derby
8b 612
Mar Sept 1904
George Toole = Margaret Isabella Andrew or Evelyn Annie Maudesley
West Derby
8b 612
Mar Jun 1903
Susannah Toole = John Hatchard or Thomas Glover Knowles
West Derby
8b 537
A couple of marriage choices for Elizabeth, Alfred, William and Ted/Edward.
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DOUGLAS CASWELL
1901
Sand Pits Powick
Worcestershire
RG13/2783/46/17
Edwin E Caswell head mar 33 coal agent b Powick Worcestershire
Sophie MC wife 34 dressmaker own account at hom German subject b Weisbaden
Douglas son 6 b Powick
Nellie G daur 4
Margrate daur 3
Ebborn J son 1
Not too sure about this as district for Powick is Upton but:
Mar Dec 1915
Nellie Caswell = John W Ball
Kidderminster
6c 205
No luck finding marriages for Margrate (Margaret?) and Ebborn but found parent's marriage:
Dec 1892
Caroline Mary S Beckel/t = Edwin Ebborn Caswell
Upton 6c 531
Moderator Comment: more at
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,379789.0.html
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SYDNEY DENNIS
1901
24 (no street name)
Streatham
RG13/474/101/43
William Dennis head mar 32 milk carrier b London Brixton
Nellie E wife 27 b Bucks n/k
Dorothy daur 4 B London Balham
Sydney W son 1 do
Marle Johnson visitor single 27 living on own account b Oxon Oxford
Can't see an obvious marriage for Dorothy. Lets hope this couple had more children after Sydney ... :-\
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BENJAMIN RICHARDSON
1901
Back Road
Blaxhall
Suffolk
RG13/1788/6/4
Benjamin Richardson head mar 38 stockman on farm b Suffolk Little Glemham
Emma wfe 38 b Blaxhall
George son 12 b Blaxhall
Charles son 11 b Norfolk Mundham
William 9 do
Benjamin son 7 b Blaxhall
Jane 5 do
Arthur 3 do
Thomas under 11 months do
Difficult to narrow down any marriages as children are so young and names are quite common and no middle names known. :-\
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Thanks heaps for that ... it gives us a bit more information :)
Bright Blessings
Sandra
www.fromelles.net
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Oh my !!..... Ruskie's got a head start !! :D :D
Good job and an excellent start !!
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Annie, I think we need help from some of those fabulous 1911 searchers. ;D (Those who can work out who is living in the household without having to pay. ;))
I haven't mastered this 'technique' yet, so some help would be wonderful.
It's actually quite sad finding those young lads on the census - they had no idea of their fate.
Also, as Glen suggested, we need to find their immigration details. Some of the lads may have come out with their families, and some alone.
As each Australian state holds their own records we might need helpers from different states.
Do you think it might be worth posting a request on the Aussie board with a link to this thread. I'm sure lots over there would love to help. ;D
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I got an Irish 1911 !! :D
3819 Private James John HARRIS
Born: Kingston, Dublin, Ireland
NOK: James and Kate HARRIS (parents)
Address: East Pier Battery, Kingston, Dublin, Ireland
Looks like he's the only one living at home in 1911 !
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Kingstown_No__2/Patrick_Street__East_Side/95732/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000247816/
We need to advertise ........ send everybody over here !! maybe a nudge on the TOT board too !! (I posted a message there !)
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Ruskie ... I have BMD's for all of the states. The hard part is that most of them end at 1905 (privacy). However, burials in the places that they signed up in may be a good thing.
Let's face it ... any little bit of information is a great help to locating living families which is what we need.
Bright Blessings
Sandra
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;D Good find Annie ;D I've never seen an Irish census before. Shame, no siblings ...
Sandra - the trouble with these boys is that it depends on who they migrated with as to where we concentrate our search for relatives.
If they came to Australia alone there is a high possiblitly that they have no relatives in Australia and we need to focus the search in the UK.
If their whole familes migrated there may be numerous relatives now living in Australia so we need to concentrate the search here. :-\
Finding their immigration records may be the best way to progress. :-\ The only clue on your list is Hugh Ross who moved to Victoria with his parents. Does the NAA site (Mapping our Anzacs?) say where the boys enlisted?
Electroral rolls may also help follow their movements.
Good idea to strike while the iron's hot - Fromelles is all over the news at the moment! ;D
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I think Sandra's already seen this but thought I'd post for others !!
239 Sergeant William WASS (MM MID)
Born: Winsley, Derby, Derbyshire
Previously served with the Sherwood Forresters in Boer War, China, India, Malay, Egypt
NOK: Germain WASS (father)
Address: Morend Farm, Chellaston, Derbyshire
http://www.anzacday.org.au/justsoldiers/justsoldiers.html
And somebody in Australia was look for the name Wass in Derbyshire ... don't know how old it is though :-\
http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mwi/derbyshire.txt
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1046 Private Robert Grieve Moncrieff SCOTT
Born: Perth, Perthshire, Scotland
NOK: Andrew Moncrieff and Christian Bryden Grieve SCOTT (parents)
Address: Upper Kier, Thornhill, Dumfrieshire, Scotland
Wonder if this guy had any replies from the newspaper ?? maybe an email ?? ???
http://www.dgstandard.co.uk/dumfries-news/local-news-dumfries/local-news-dumfriesshire/2009/01/21/looking-for-soldier-scott-51311-22738157/
If anybody is mapping Anzacs ... he was from Perth ... did he enlist there ?
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Hi All,
I am in NSW Australia, and I have a subscription with a non anc***** organisation based in NSW, as well as my ancestry sub. That non Anc sub has access to the 1903 NSW electoral rolls. It is not keyword searchable, BUT If you would like some help, I will try at least for NSW based lads. My Grandfather was SGW Bullecourt May 1917, but he returned, leaving behind his right eye and bringing back several health issues from gassing, and physical injuries including major scars, a limp and ...... 2 of my Gran's first cousins were Kiwi, and served in France, neither returned. One was kia June 1916 the other kia june 1917.
I will start at the other end of the alphabet and see what I can find!
Just Moi.
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OK - so William Wass was in Sydney in 1914. (enlisted there perhaps?) - sounds like he might have come to Australia alone.
Can you find him Moi?
I sent an email to the Wass researcher in WA. If I don't get a response I will try the other researcher.
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Annie, I will send via PM the email address of the guy searching for Robert Scott.
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Ruskie,
WASS, William
His AIF papers are (like all WW1 AIF Diggers) online at naa.gov.au free to everyone to read. his papers show he enlisted at Randwick, which is in Sydney. Now I know that I will try the electoral roll, at least that may give us an idea of anyone else with that surname at that address.
Also I note that he left a will, and that the correct UK address is noted on those papers as GERMAN WASS of Moor End Farm Chellaston DERBY for anyone doing the UK census end
Hope to have something more concrete to help with shortly!
Just Moi
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Hi all,
Re. William Wass.
I read his papers as his next of kin being his mother whose name was Germaine Wass. She was his mother, and lived in Derby UK.
He was a single man at the time of his death.
Sue
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I've just had a thought....
The embarkation rolls will show the man's address at enlistment which should help with electoral roll research
http://www.awm.gov.au/research/people/nominal_rolls/first_world_war_embarkation/
I have to go to work now but will have a look tonight.
Glen
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Ah,
Ta Sue and Glen,
The enlistment addresses info gives William Wass, Sig. Corporal aged 31, Fitter, Single, C of E, enlisted 17 August 1914 Second street, Pelaw Main, NSW and his n o k was a G Wass, Father, Anderston near Derby, England.
I' ll try to figure out "Pelaw Main, NSW" cause the Randwick Electoral Roll had nothing that I could see, and a quick phone call from me to a cousin reminded me that Randwick was where many men marched hundreds of miles from across the countryside to enlist at that depot, basically the first depot set up to handle enlistments.
Just Moi
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William Wass
Found Pelaw Main, its a colliery near Newcastle NSW, several rolls and many polling stations, but I will get to every one - sitting in an armchair makes me realise these lads deserve more at least our rootschatters efforts to know that their remains have been identified.
Just Moi
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Hi
William WASS seems to have arrived in Ausralia in 1912 from London. Right birth date listed.
Yes, Germain does appear to be father..[though mother is also listed , unnamed as NOK!]
Sue
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William WASS
He was aged 30 years 10 months on enlistment in Aug 1914. I guess that's why I cannot find him on NSW electoral roll for 1903, for you had to be 21 to enroll.
As a thought, at least for this lad, is it worthwhile contacting the local Newcastle Labor Council as he was at Pelaw Main, a colliery, and that would have been a "closed shop" ie all would have been union members. If the Union Movement could get behind the hunt - not for descendants of William Wass in NSW, but behind the general thrust to recognise each and every one at that site at Fromelles, perhaps hands across generations will achieve far more than these lads would have anticipated when they enlisted.
I don't know how or who to contact to get any media coverage on this, but I am sure someone here at rootschat will know.
Just Moi.
I will try now for John TOOLE.
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John TOOLE,
from his embarkation papers his n o k was Mrs Margaret Toole, mother, 3 Mountjoy St Liverpool England, and he was 27 when enlisting on 19 Aug 1914, a single man, Storeman, with no address listed in Australia.
The address is as per the list on rootschat, but his mother's first name on those embarkation papers is Margaret.
I will check his enlistment papers at the National Archives and compare.
Just Moi
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John TOOLE
was born Aintree, Liverpool, Lancashire Eng on his enlistment papers. His mother was his next of Kin: Margaret Toole, 3 Mount Joy St Liverpool England. He had previously served in the 5th Batt Lancashire for FOUR years.
He was 27 years 2 months when enlisting on 22 August 1914.
Hope that helps find him in UK census records.
Just Moi, cause I don't see that would be same John Toole as in the snip of Ruskie's quote below
JOHN TOOLE
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Hi Annie,
Do you know where your list originated from? Cause on John TOOLE, I can find his AIF papers, and get the addy for his n o k, but with different first name for his mother, and that could be why the authorities have not found anyone to check for DNA matching?
Just a thought, from Just Moi.
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Hi All,
My OH and I will make time this evening to compare each name on the list with the AIF records and with their embarkation records. I won't post any further until we have double checked and can give you some more clues.
Just Moi.
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1891 RG12/2721/80/1
civil parish, Elavaston; hamlet, Ambaston; Shardlow South Derbyshire
German Wass 41 ag lab b Windley (which is Belper registration)
Harriet Wass 41 b Wirksworth
Herbert Wass 14 b Windley (Shardlow reg)
William Wass 11 b Windley
Arthur Wass 8 b Windley
Margret Wass 6 b Ambaston
Ellen Wass 4 b Ambaston
Lizzie Wass 1 b Ambaston
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1901 RG13/3204/183/1
German Wass 51 waggoner on farm
Harriett Wass 51
Arthur Wass 18 lab railway carriage works
Margaret Wass 16
Lizzie Wass 11
Louisa Wass 6
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Ruskie ... given that they named their NOK in the UK then it is highly likely (from past experience) that the came on their own.
Bright Blessings
Sandra
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moving along in leaps and bounds :)
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1911, two lots of censuses
Derby
Arthur Wass 28/1883
Lizzie 21/190
Lilly 18/1893
Amy 15/1896
and
Shardlow
Germarn Wass 60/1851
Harriet 60/1851
Herbert 34/1877
William 30/1881
Margriet 26/1885
Louie 16/1895
So marriages etc would be later.
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This original list was posted by me as being one of the two researchers in Australia working on the family history of the 191 Australians. I will put up what I have to date on these men.
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Progress Report
OH and I are getting very disappointed in the way these lads AIF records have not got the same info as on that list. We are disappointed in the lack of care that who-ever transcribed them in the initial forming of that list.
Here are some examples that we have noticed, and we hope these will NOT deter our rootschatter friends from figuring out how to help Liverpool Annie, cause it's not her errors, its just disappointing.
397 Private Douglas CASWELL
Born: Powyke, Worcestershire, England
NOK: Eberron and Sophie CASWELL (parents)
Stockton, Newcastle
Douglas’ Occupation in AUS – butcher,
N o K addresses: are for NSW Stockton Newcastle, NOT for NEWCASTLE UK. Douglas St, Stockton Newcastle NEW SOUTH WALES, clearly shown on page 1 of his AIF enlistment papers. He was 21 years, no months when he enlisted on 16 July 1915. His place of birth is shown several times as POWYKE, WORCHESTERSHIRE ENG.
On Feb 6th 1923, his mother signed for his medal, and in earlier years for other memorials, her first name clearly Sophie, and her middle initials were M and C. His father signed for some medals too, in earlier years and on 2 Feb 1923.
889 Private Henry GARDINER (GARDNER)
Born: Whitewell, Yorkshire
NOK: Elizabeth Ann ASHTON (sister)
Address: 92 Victoria Rd, Walton Le Dale, Preston, Lancashire
Henry GARDNER (NO “I” IN HIS SIGNATURE)’s birth place shows on enlistment as Bowland Forest PARISH, at Whitewell, Yorkshire. He was 28 years 11 months when enlisting on 20 July 1915 at Liverpool NSW. He worked at an Asylum in Parramatta (Sydney NSW), and his employer wrote and enquired after him. Mrs E A ASHTON of 92 Victoria Rd Walton Le Dale, Preston, Lancs received his effects and returned the required form for same on 14 May 1917. Yes, she was his sister, and she signed for medals in July 1922
3819 Private James John HARRIS
Born: Kingston, Dublin, Ireland
NOK: James and Kate HARRIS (parents)
Address: East Pier Battery, Kingston, Dublin, Ireland
James John was aged 26 years 7 months on enlistment on 1 November 1915. He was born in the parish of Christchurch in Kingstown, Dublin, Ireland. His N O K was his mother Kate, of East Pier Battery, Kingstown, Dublin. This was also the address that his father (James.) wrote from in Feb 1920. Jas Harris (father) was then aged 73, and Kate (mother) was 60.
Ummm, we will continue to go through each lad. We have NOT found Sydney Dennis yet, but we are trying, and we are hoping others will help too.
Just Moi and my OH
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This original list was posted by me as being one of the two researchers in Australia working on the family history of the 191 Australians. I will put up what I have to date on these men.
Hope you understand that we are NOT disappointed in you, but we are in A W E of your efforts and are trying to help.
Just Moi and OH
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We have been working for 18 months on this research sometimes 7 days a week and 14 hours a day.
The research has been compiled from various sources and taking the most recent information as opposed to the oldest and ages were purposely rounded off to the nearest year.
Bright Blessings
Sandra
www.fromelles.net
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There is a specific methodolgy with the research (Ideally we need to follow the lineage of a female line) and our need to locate family in the UK for these men.
This is what we have put together for WASS.
NOK Father: Germain Wass
Known address: Morend Farm Chellaston Derbyshire England
Mother: Harriett Wass
Brother: Herbert Wass
Brother: Arthur Wass
Sister: Margaret Wass
Sister: Ellen Wass
Sister: Lizzie Wass
Brother: George Wass
Known address: 2nd Street Pelaw Main NSW
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SYDNEY DENNIS
1901
24 (no street name)
Streatham
RG13/474/101/43
William Dennis head mar 32 milk carrier b London Brixton
Nellie E wife 27 b Bucks n/k
Dorothy daur 4 B London Balham
Sydney W son 1 do
Marle Johnson visitor single 27 living on own account b Oxon Oxford
Can't see an obvious marriage for Dorothy. Lets hope this couple had more children after Sydney ... :-\
When I look in 1911 there seems to be another family in Wandsworth, all b earlier
But these are the names we've got.
William Dennis 41 b 1879
Nellie 36/1875
Dorothy 14/1897
Sydney W 11/1900
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NAME Caswell, Douglas
SN 397
RANK Private
UNIT 30 Battalion
HONOUR Standard entitlements
BORN Powyke Worcestershire England
OCCUPATION Butcher
RELIGION Anglican
DOE 16.07.1915 Liverpool NSW
AGE 21
STATUS KIA
DATE 20.07.1916
AGE 22
BURIED Unknown
MEMORIAL VC Corner Cemetery Memorial panel 2
AWM 116
DESCRIPTION 5 foot 8 with fair hair
NOTES
NOK Father: Eberron Caswell
deceased on enlistment
Mother: Sophie M C Caswell daughter of Peter (Gateshead?)
She died 1953 aged 87 Newcastle Reg No 29366
Douglas Street North Stockton Newcastle NSW
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Hi Sandra,
The AIF records actually have the details that these lads supplied when enlisting, documents filled out in their own hands, and while some may have fibbed about their ages to make themselves eligible (either upped or lowered at either end of the "scale") there are valid reasons to go straight to "primary" records from these lads. We both salute the 18 months of research, and we are only trying to help now, as we were unaware that there was not a definite DNA match for each lad. We had understood from various media coverages here in Australia that DNA had been obtained for some possible 400 lads who may have been killed in action there.
Good thoughts from us both, and we will continue to try to glean other clues from those AIF enlistment records, as the rootschatters do need that type of detail to "isolate" the various census records from other likely families/possibles.
Just US.
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NAME Gardiner, Henry (AKA Gardner)
SN 889
RANK Private
UNIT 30 Battalion
HONOUR Standard entitlements
BORN Bishop's House Dunsop Bridge Yorkshire
Bowland Forrest Whitewell Yorkshire
OCCUPATION Asylum Attendant
RELIGION Roman Catholic
DOE 14.07.1915 Liverpool NSW
AGE 29
Residence on embarkation:
STATUS KIA
DATE 20.07.1916 (19.07.1916)
AGE 30
BURIED Unknown
MEMORIAL VC Corner Cemetery Memorial Panel 2
AWM 117
DESCRIPTION 6 foot with dark hair
NOTES CAUTION: George Gardiner 8th Bn has service number 889
Henry has filled in his form as GARDNER
Sister has filled in form as GARDNER
Attestation is GARDINER
NAA is GARDNER
CWGC is GARDINER
Part of AWM is GARDINER and rest is GARDNER
NOK Sister: Elizabeth Ann Ashton 92 Victoria Rd Walton Le Dale near Preston Lancashire
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4873 Private Joseph SCOTT
Born: South Shields, Durham
NOK: Mrs Margaret MORDUE (sister)
Address: 5 Cornelius Square, South Shields, Durham
Marriages Dec 1906
all with the same index - double wedding?
MORDUE John Edward S. Shields 10a 1295
MORDUE William
SCOTT Margaret
STRONG Mary Ann
I'll have a look in the 1911
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DNA testing has NOT been done of any relative or soldier at this stage as far as I am aware.
Our the primary focus of our research is to compile the family histories and trace living family members preferably down a female line although recently we have seen in media reports that male DNA is useful too.
Bright Blessings
Sandra
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Umm, Hi Sandra,
Do you know why your research team has Douglas CASWELL's father as deceased when Douglas enlisted?
I ask this because at page 27 of 27 of Douglas' AIF papers, it clearly shows Mr E Caswell, father as signing for the Memorial Scroll on 17/10/21 and as far as I understand it, 17/10/21 is the date. That would mean Douglas' father was alive in 1921.
Very confusing for me!
[NAME Caswell, Douglas
SN 397
NOK Father: Eberron Caswell
deceased on enlistment
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NAME Grace, Walter Allen
SN 1537
RANK Private
UNIT 31 Bn
HONOUR Standard Entitlements
BORN Spondon near Derbyshire England
OCCUPATION Farmer
RELIGION ??
DOE 20.07.1915 Brisbane Qld
AGE 22
STATUS KIA
DATE 20.07.1916
AGE 23
BURIED Unknown
MEMORIAL VC Corner Cemetery Memorial panel 3
AWM 118
DESCRIPTION 5 foot 5 1/2 light brown hair
NOTES Arrived in Australia 1912
Identity disk returned by German authorities
Mentioned on the Spondon war memorial
NOK Mother: Mary Grace
The Meadows Spondon Derbyshire England
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We have a family contact for Robert Courtney Green :)
Came through last night :)
Bright Blessings
Sandra
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4873 Private Joseph SCOTT
Born: South Shields, Durham
NOK: Mrs Margaret MORDUE (sister)
Address: 5 Cornelius Square, South Shields, Durham
Marriages Dec 1906
all with the same index - double wedding?
MORDUE John Edward S. Shields 10a 1295
MORDUE William
SCOTT Margaret
STRONG Mary Ann
I'll have a look in the 1911
possible children of the Mordue/Scott marriage - but needs a bit more checking
1912 ARthur - S Shields
1914 Thomas
1916 Harriet G
1919 Joseph
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Thats brilliant news. ;D
Wish I could help more but don't have acces to census.
I have been slowly going through the shipping to Victoria but no luck so far.
Margaret
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I am the one responsible for gleaning information from the service records and compiling the family trees. However, I have to state that NONE of this work has been double checked.
Having written that the father was deceased on enlistment there must be something in his file to have alerted me to the fact. I will have to go back and look through it again :)
Thanks for the heads up :)
Bright Blessings
Sandra
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NAME Dennis, Sydney
SN 1252
RANK Lance Corporal
UNIT 32 Battalion
HONOUR Standard entitlements
BORN London Middlesex England
OCCUPATION Master Butcher
RELIGION Anglican
DOE 15.07.1915 Perth W. Aust
AGE 31
Residence on embarkation: Dwellingup W. Aust
STATUS KIA
DATE 20.07.1916 (19.07.1916)
AGE 32
BURIED Unknown
MEMORIAL VC Corner Cemetery Memorial panel 5
AWM 120
DESCRIPTION Height: 5 foot 8 1/4 inches brown hair
NOTES On NAA Archives as Stanley William Dennis
According to his file his body was identified by its marks. Identity disk was
returned by Germans.
he was killed on his sister Ethel's birthday
Fell in the neighbourhood of Fromelles
According to his sister he was killed by a shell while leading a bombing party
in an attack (AWM Honour Roll)
NOK Mother: Mrs Elizabeth Broad Dennis c/- Mrs D Brown 20 Guildersfield Road Streatham.
London. This was crossed out and his sister was entered with the date 08.08.1941
Mother died 20.12.1916
Father: William Dennis died November 1903
Sister: Ethel B Dennis Winton Bournemouth Hants England born 19.07.1879
Sister: Mrs Dorothy Brown is marked in his file as being another sister.
-
NAME Scott, Joseph
SN 4873
RANK Private
UNIT 54 Bn
HONOUR Standard Entitlements
BORN South Shields Durham England
OCCUPATION Mercantile Marine Stoker (coal lumper)
RELIGION Anglican
DOE 14.09.1915 Warwick Farm NSW
AGE 33
STATUS KIA
DATE 20.07.1916
AGE 34
BURIED Unknown
MEMORIAL VC Corner Cemetery Memorial panel 11
AWM 159
DESCRIPTION 5 foot 7 with brown hair
Other documents say 5 foot 6
NOTES ID disc returned by German authorities
NOK Father: Robert Scott
Mother: Mary A Scott
Brother: John T Scott
Sister: Mrs Margaret A Mordue
5 Cornelius Square South Shields Durham Eng (1955)
Husband's initials J E
Sister: Isabella Scott
Brother: Robert W Scott
Sister: Sarah J Scott
Brother: Albert J Scott
Sister: Mary E Scott
Sister: Anna Scott
Brother: William
-
NAME Harris, James John
SN 3819
RANK Private
UNIT 55 Bn
HONOUR Standard Entitlements
BORN Kingston Dublin Ireland
OCCUPATION Farm labourer
RELIGION ??
DOE 01.11.1915 Holsworthy NSW
AGE 27
STATUS KIA
DATE 20.07.1916
AGE 28
BURIED Unknown
MEMORIAL VC Corner Cemetery Memorial panel 13
AWM 160
DESCRIPTION 5 foot 9 with dark brown hair
NOTES In Australia 7 years
In 1920 father's age 73 and mother 60
ID Disk returned to family
NOK Father: James Harris
Mother: Kate Harris
Known address: East Pier Battery Kingston Dublin Ireland
-
Umm,
So logically these lads all fell around the same day of the same month of the same year, and the German handed back discs. Umm,
Perhaps, with the efficiency of the German bureaucracts, has anyone looked for the list of names that the Germans handed over, and then had that list translated?
Just trying to help, and getting so confused here in NSW Australia. We are having a quick break to re-think and get out the monte carlos etc so we can get stuck into the AIF records and glean, BUT ONLY if you think that will HELP rather than HINDER. Please let us know ASAP.
Just Moi.
-
Would it be better to have a separate thread for each name? It's getting very confusing.
-
I have checked through Caswell's file. You are correct about the father's name appearing on page 27, however, that is not his signature. AIF have written that to advise that the items had been dispatched to the father. The medals were signed for by the mother.
I still haven't ascertained how I arrived at the conclusion the father was deceased on enlistment!!! :-\
PS:
Father: Eberron Caswell
died Newcastle 1919 Reg No 7198
Obviously I added the notation on the wrong file.
-
It is getting very confusing ... I decided that I would only add what I have on the ones under discussion :)
I threw GRACE in for some reason!!!
Blonde moment but please don't tell anyone :)
-
The Jack Joyce one might be difficult, seems to have crossed off next to kin and put in - friend Rita Calder.
he is listed as 28 years old and a drover.
-
Hi Sandra,
Derrr Blonde is here in NSW. What makes it so confusing to me, is that my own oral history has a Kiwi fallen there in that trench line at that time. I have found his KIWI info, and have read some military history which indicates that his unit was attached to the Aussies, and perhaps kitted out by them. His public info is found at the http://www.aucklandmuseum.com/130/cenotaph-database under Eddie VAZEY. His second cousin is still living, nearly 90, and a resident of a retirement home in rural NSW. His date of death is recorded as 22 June 1917.
"The line in the mean-time was being held by the 3rd Australian Division as far south as St. Yves, and by the 4th New Zealand infantry Brigade* from St. Yves to the Lys. The Brigade .... was now in the line for the first time, having taken over the sector on June 10th. It had not yet joined up with the Division however, but was for the time being attached to the Australians. " It is possible that my geography lessons are inadequate, and this location may not be anywhere near Fromelles. Whether or not, both my OH and I are willing to try to help the project.
Just need some guidance.
Moi
-
I have put the censuses for Douglas Caswell on a new thread. This is too confusing. Anyone else who wants to come in and help may find disjointed to go through.
-
I have put the censuses for Douglas Caswell on a new thread. This is too confusing. Anyone else who wants to come in and help may find disjointed to go through.
May I please have the link for that thread?
Ta, Derr Blonde Just Moi
-
The common room :)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,379789.0.html
-
I have gleaned all the relevant information from the NAA service records regarding these men. Buuutttttt ;) what information I have on these men I will post for you and I wont enter into the discussion again unless you have a specific question for me :)
Then ... those that want to hunt hunt out bits n pieces can post/copy/paste on other threads ...
Fingers crossed that will work ;D
I think ... I hope ... ;)
-
NAME Hill, Charles Stevens
SN 842
RANK Sergeant
UNIT 53 Battalion
HONOUR Standard entitlements
BORN East Molesey Kingston on Thames Surrey Eng
OCCUPATION Labourer
RELIGION Anglican
DOE 29.08.1914 Randwick NSW
AGE 26
Residence on embarkation:
STATUS KIA
DATE 20.07.1916 (19.07.1916)
AGE 28
BURIED Unknown
MEMORIAL VC Cemetery Memorial panel 7
AWM 117
DESCRIPTION 5 foot 8 with fair hair
Previously wounded right hand (arm)
NOTES Statement of evidence by 2825 Sgt A L Harrison: In the action of 19th July 1916 I saw
No 842 Sgt C S Hill killed in the enemy communication trench by a hand grenade.
Identity disk returned by the German authorities
Transcription of Sgt Charles Stevens HILL's will that is in his service record held at NAA
"This is the last will and testament of me Charles Stevens HILL of 52 Darling Street
Glebe near Sydney in the State of New South Wales Labourer. I appoint the Public
Trustee of the State of New South Wales Trustee and Executor whereof I give to him
all my real and personal estate whatsoever and wheresoever upon trust as soon as
conveniently may be after my decease to sell call in and convert the same into money
and after payment of my just debts funeral and testamentary expenses pay and divide
the net proceeds unto and equally between ALEXANDER HILL the elder of 31 Spring
Gardens East Molesey Surrey England ELLEN HILL of 31 Spring Gardens East
Molesey Surrey England wife of the said Alexander Hill the elder ALEXANDER HILL
the younger of 31 Spring Gardens East Molesey Surrey England ELLA LYDIA HILL
of 31 Spring Gardens East Molesey Surrey England MILLICENT ELLEN SMITH of
'The Unicord' Cherry Hinton near Cambridge England. In witness whereof I have
hereunto set my hand this third day of September one thousand nine hundred and
fourteen.
(Sgd) Charles Stevens Hill
Signed by the said Charles Stevens HILL the testator as and for his last Will and
Testament in the presence of us present at the same time who at his request and in the
presence of each other have hereunto subscribed out names as witnesses.
(Sgd) L E Thompson (Sgd) W R Hosey
338 Pitt Street 264 Pitt Street
Sydney Sydney
Public Accountant Clerk"
NOK Father: Alexander Hill 31 Spring Gardens East Molesey Surrey England
Mother: Mrs Ellen Hill 31 Spring Gardens East Molesey Surrey England
Brother: Alexander Hill 31 Spring Gardens East Molesey Surrey England
Sister: Ella Lydia Hill 31 Sprink Gardens East Molesey Surrey England
Sister???: Millicent Ellen SMITH 'The Unicord' Cherry Hinton near Cambridge England
-
NAME James, Arthur Mossop
SN 689
RANK Private
UNIT 30 Battalion
HONOUR Standard entitlements
BORN Paddington London
OCCUPATION Clerk
RELIGION Anglican
DOE 08.02.1915 Liverpool NSW
AGE 25
Residence on embarkation: 'Alicia' Railway Street Epping NSW
STATUS KIA
DATE 20.07.1916 (19.07.1916)
AGE 28
BURIED Unknown
MEMORIAL VC Corner Cemetery memorial panel 2
AWM 117
DESCRIPTION 5 foot 3 1/4 light hair
NOTES Identity disk returned by German authorities
NOK Father: Albert James deceased
Mother: Susan Ashton
240 Guinness Bldgs Draycott Avenue Chelsea London
-
NAME Mason, James Lowther
SN 470
RANK Private
UNIT 31 Bn
HONOUR Standard entitlements
BORN Christchurch NZ (Styx Canterbury)
OCCUPATION Labourer/Farmer
RELIGION Anglican
DOE 13.07.1915 Brisbane Qld
AGE 43
STATUS KIA
DATE 19.07.1916
AGE 44
BURIED Unknown
MEMORIAL Villers Brettoneaux
AWM 119
DESCRIPTION 5 foot 7 with aurburn hair
NOTES Wounded at Armentieres
Effects forward to HQ AIF 29.11.1916
Letter from Germany appears to say he was KIA Fromelles the morning of 19.07.1916
NOK Father: John Mason deceased on enlistment
Mother: Margaret Mason deceased on enlistment
Brother: John Mason residing in Cleveden Auckland NZ and still alive in 1923
Moderator Comment: More at
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,380080.0.html
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NAME Pheasant, Walter
SN 2462
RANK Private
UNIT 54 Bn
HONOUR Standard Entitlements
BORN Bow London England
OCCUPATION Chef
RELIGION Anglican
DOE 26.05.1915 Liverpool NSW
AGE 21
STATUS KIA
DATE 19.07.1916
AGE 22
BURIED Unknown
MEMORIAL VC Corner Cemetery Memorial panel 11
AWM 159
DESCRIPTION 5 foot 8 with brown hair
NOTES Arrived in Australia aged 17
-
NAME Richardson, Benjamin
SN 4581
RANK Private
UNIT 54 Bn
HONOUR Standard entitlements
BORN Blaxall Suffolk England
OCCUPATION Labourer
RELIGION Anglican
DOE 03.08.1915 Warwick Farm NSW
AGE 22
STATUS KIA
DATE 20.07.1916
AGE 23
BURIED Unknown
MEMORIAL VC Corner Cemetery Memorial NSW
AWM 159
DESCRIPTION 5 foot 7 1/4 with fair hair
NOTES Arrived in Australia age 20
NOK Father: Benjamin Richardson
Blaxall Tunstall Suffolk England
Mother: Emma Richardson
Brother: George Richardson
Brother: Charles Richardson
Brother: William Richardson
Sister: Jane Richardson
Brother: Arthur Richardson
Brother: Thomas Richardson
-
NAME Ross, James Hugh
SN 1216
RANK Corporal
UNIT 29 Bn
HONOUR Entitlements
BORN Stirling Scotland c1893
OCCUPATION Grocer
RELIGION Presbyterian
DOE 12.07.1915 Melbourne Vic
AGE 22
STATUS KIA
DATE 19.07.1916
AGE 23
BURIED Unknown
MEMORIAL VC Corner Cemetery memorial panel ?
AWM 116
DESCRIPTION 5 foot 9 1/2 with brown hair
One gold tooth upper jaw
NOTES Identity disk returned by German authorities
Arrived in Australia age 20
On the AWM Honour Roll circular another reference is given:
Mrs J Clark 9 Hillington Gardens Cardonald Glasgow Scotland.
NOK Father: James A Ross
12 Cunningham Street Northcote Victoria
Possibly died Northcote 1943 Aged 70 Reg No 12291 (parents Daniel & Cath Ross)
Mother: Alice T Ross
Sister: Isabella W Ross
Sister: Elizabeth R Ross
Brother?: Agnes T Ross
Sister: Alice W T Ross
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NAME Scott, Robert Grieve Moncrieff
SN 1046
RANK Private
UNIT 32 Bn
HONOUR Standard entitlements
BORN Perth Perthshire Scotland
OCCUPATION Farmhand
RELIGION Presbyterian
DOE 17.07.1915 Perth W. Australia
AGE 22
STATUS KIA
DATE 20.07.1916
AGE 23
BURIED Rue Pettilon Military Cemetery I.L.46
MEMORIAL AWM 121
DESCRIPTION 5 foot 9 1/2 with brown hair
NOTES ID disc returned by German authorities
Formerly from Dalwallinu W. Aust came to Aust aged 18
NOK Father: Andrew Moncrieff Scott - whereabouts were unknown
Mother: Christian Bryden Grieve Scott
Upper Kier Thornhill Dumfrieshire Scotland
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NAME Toole, John
SN 690
RANK Corporal
UNIT 54 Bn
HONOUR Standard Entitlements
BORN Liverpool England
OCCUPATION Storeman
RELIGION Anglican
DOE 19.04.1914 Bondi NSW
AGE 27
STATUS KIA
DATE 19.07.1916
AGE 28
BURIED Unknown
MEMORIAL VC Corner Cemetery Memorial panel 10
AWM 60 ??
DESCRIPTION 5 foot 5 with light brown hair
GSW to arm Gallipoli
NOTES Served Gallipoli
Arrived Australia age 23
NOK Father: George Henry Toole
3 Mountjoy Street Everton Liverpool England
Uncle: John Toole Sussex Street Sydney NSW
Mother: Martha Toole
Brother: George Toole
Sister: Elizabeth Toole
Sister: Susannah Toole
Brother: Alfred Toole
Brother: David Toole
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NAME Verpillot, Aime Constant
SN 4885
RANK Private
UNIT 53 Bn
HONOUR Standard entitlements
BORN La Jonchere Neufchatel Switzerland
OCCUPATION Scroll maker (wire worker)
RELIGION Methodist
DOE 06.09.1915 Warwick Farm NSW
AGE 24
STATUS KIA
DATE 19.07.1916
AGE 25
BURIED Unknown
MEMORIAL VC Corner Cemetery Memorial panel 9
AWM 158
DESCRIPTION 5 foot 9 1/2 dark brown hair
NOTES Arrived in Australia aged 20
Naturalisation papers (1915/14267) at NAA dated 1915
ID disk returned by German authorities
Educated at public school in Switzerland and Grammar School Coventry England
I THINK THIS FAMILY WERE FRENCH AND MOVED AROUND THE GLOBE
NOK Father: Charles Eugene Verpillot
Known address 1922: Ville des Pins, Caromb Vaucluse France.
He was a watchmaker. http://www.coventrywatchmuseum.co.uk/
Mother: Berthe Verpillot (nee Venne as Ruth is listed as sister in law on census)
-
NAME Joyce, Jack
SN 1624
RANK Private
UNIT 32 Battalion
HONOUR Three standard entitlements (all to untraceable)
BORN C 1887 Wolverhampton England
OCCUPATION Drover
RELIGION Anglican
DOE 15.07.1915 Wagin W. Aust
AGE 28
Residence on embarkation:
STATUS KIA
DATE 20.07.1916 (19.07.1916)
AGE 29
BURIED Unknown
MEMORIAL VC Corner Cemetery Memorial panel
AWM
DESCRIPTION Height 5 foot 3 with fair hair
Photograph of Jack Joyce courtesy of Yvonne Nie daughter of Rita Calder
NOTES Letter stating that Joyce's medals were to be advertised world wide hoping to locate
relatives.
According to a letter in file Rita Calder proved the will of Joyce and stated that he had
no living relatives.
Joyce's identity discs were handed over by German authorities.
Date of arrival in Australia is unknown.
Friend: Mrs Rita Calder 37 State Street Victoria Park W. Aust
Rita Calder was single when Joyce enlisted and later married.
Rita Calder nee Tourney applied for Joyce's death certificate.
Rita Calder was Henrietta Florence Hinde Tourney who married 1920
Mary McGEE married Thomas JOYCE in 1874 at Birmingham, Warwickshire.
(Index Volume 6d, Page 277)
John Thomas JOYCE was born in 1882 at Wolverhampton, Staffordshire (Index Volume 6b, Page 576)
Mary JOYCE married John ROSE in 1884 at Cannock Staffordshire (C1CL/3/254)
*NB - there is a second entry that lists Mary by her maiden name, McGEE
1901 Census has John and Mary ROSE living at Morpeth, Northumberland with the following children:
John T JOYCE, 18 yrs
Robert ROSE, 14 yrs
Nellie ROSE, 11 yrs
Mary ROSE, 7 yrs
Edwin ROSE, 9 mths
Mary ROSE died in 1909 at Morpeth, Northumberland, aged 52 (Index Volume 10b, Page 241)
J.T. JOYCE recorded as having sailed from London in 1909 to Australia, arriving the port of Fremantle
www.ancestorsonboard.com
It would also seem that he was the only child to Thomas and Mary and therefore (assuming Thomas
died before Mary's re-marriage) by the time he came to Australia, Jack was indeed an orphan.
His only living relatives would be the ROSE children who were his half-siblings.
-
Hello Everyone,
This is my first post here so be gentle with me!!
I am the 'other half' of the research team with Sandra and she has drawn my attention to this thread. Firstly I'd like to thank everyone for their valuable input thus far, we are very grateful.
Just Moi is correct that the Germans did indeed take the ID disks and record all the names of those they buried. German documents (death vouchers) are usually to be found in the service files of the Australian soldiers or in the Red Cross files. In addition the ID disks taken by the Germans were returned to the families via the Red Cross and there is usually a notation reflecting this fact. Unfortunately the actual death lists compiled by the Germans have long since been mislaid and we have only been able to establish those Australian names by examining the service file and Red Cross records. However, there in no real need to comb through the service files and Red Cross files again because this has already been done.
What we are seeking is to contact current family descended from these soldiers (or as close as possible to) which is going to require quite a bit of genealogical detective work. Thus far Sandra and I (along with a few other helpers) have located descendants for 100 of the 191 Australians believed buried at Pheasant Wood. These sixteen of UK birth are probably the most difficult for us to follow purely because of distance and access to records.
Hopefully, with the kind help of everyone here, we might be able to solve a few and locate living descendants.
Cheers,
Tim L.
-
I think that is all of them ... if I have missed any I am sure you will contact me.
Thanks heaps for all the research you lot are doing ... fingers crossed we can find these families and the boys can be postively identified and have a name on their headstone.
Bright Blessings
Sandra
-
Regarding Benjamin Richardson of Blaxhall, I have contacted the Blaxhall Archive Group who have produced a book, CDs, DVDs and are still involved in an ongoing project about the village. They have undertaken to record as much as they can regarding the history of the village and many hours of recordings have been completed.
There will be a festival in Blaxhall when they are celebrating George Ewart Evans' centenary this summer with a three day event 24th, 25th and 26th July 2009.
If any descendants of this family are still in the village or nearby, members of the Archive Group will know who to contact.
Pat ...
(Suffolk Local History Council)
-
Welcome Tim to rootschat.
I am relatively new to this site, only months old here! Been interested in family history long before I discovered the internet and long before I found rootschat.
My OH and I are of the view that the AIF digitised records online at naa.gov.au are worth trawling through again, but if you are sure that each page of each digger's record has been checked and the genie info recorded, and re-checked then we will not go down that path again. But, so far, we have found some apparent discrepencies, eg Newcastle NSW rather than the UK city after which the NSW was named! ;)
Also, my OH is convinced that if someone were to contact the German archives that there will be one list there, which will just need a translation, and you will have a further confirmation of the ID discs, from primary records to at least confirm your previous research, and for example sort out 889 GARDINER from 889 GARDNER, I think the Germans even knew he was GARDNER depite the Aussie clerk putting that "I" in when he enlisted ::)
Please let us know if you would like us to go through those AIF records, OH is more than happy too, and I am a fair typist, so will do my best to draw attention to any stand out issues.
Cheers, from OZ, Just Moi.
-
Thanks Just Moi,
Admittedly, the service files have been checked by several people over the course of the investigation but I don't think anyone has actually ever double-checked the genealogy information that Sandra and I have gathered from them. It certainly wouldn't hurt to go over them again from this aspect.
The German archives in Bavaria and also the Red Cross archives in Geneva have been thoroughly searched already by the noted historian, Peter Barton (at the request of the Australian Gov't). He certainly uncovered a treasure trove of staggering proportions in Geneva but was unable to locate any copies of the elusive German death lists at either location.
Cheers,
Tim.
-
Ta Tim,
Its around 9:30 pm here in NSW, and we both think it will be safer if we get back onto this "genie clues" search tomorrow evening rather than try to figure out info now. Thanks for that German clue, OH was sure he had read somewhere that there was someone on the hunt in an official way for that list, and you have been able to clear that up.
Hopefully there will be some decent clues for the UKers to follow up on through their local resources.
Many cheers, Just Moi and my OH
-
Moi ... did you check the research postings that I put up? my work explains Gardner (Gardiner) and why it is as it is (if that makes any sense) also the Yorkshire UK bit ... not sure where that error is as I can't seem to find it ... mind you ... I go cross eyed at times looking at the same things over and over :)
Bright Blessings
Sandra
-
Sandra, I have just started a separate thread for James Hugh Ross......hope that's OK with you......
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=379841.msg2527044;topicseen#msg2527044
Dee
-
Hi Sandra
Yes, we understand the Gardiner/Gardner issues. It's also likely that each state used enlistment numbers starting from 001, so it is possible for several AIF lads to have same number. This was overcome in WW2, for example NX indicates NEW SOUTH WALES enlistment and X for overseas service during the war, while NO indicates NSW and O for Occupation service overseas during post war eg Japan service after those bombs. QX represents Queensland, and VX represents Victoria. Other states seemed to have used similar letter prefixes. We think this is probably an over simplication, but it explains the 889 Gardiner v 889 Gardner issues as simply as we can. The Fromelles GARDNER was listed as GARDNER by the German documentation. Sorry for the long winded reply. You must be weary of us by now :-\
Cheers, Just Us,
-
WOW - I've just got back online to see all this new information on the thread. :o
I'm quite confused - information overload. And I was getting muddled way back on page one.
Silvery has started a new thread in the common room for Douglas Caswell. I think this is the best way to progress with this search - a new thread for each soldier. Is this something that the moderators can do - split this thread into one for each chap, or is that too difficult?
[PS. Tim and Sandra, earlier today I contacted another researcher about Robert Scott. He has no further info despite having tried to find relatives via local newspapers. He says he knows you. ;)]
PPS. Dee - good idea. ;)
-
Umm, separate threads will work well for me here in NSW. Especially need to mention though
THAT THE GERMAN RECORDS are on each lad's AIF file, and are showing KIA as early as the morning of 19th rather than the 20th or later. Its 11:30 pm here, we have set up a spread sheet and will be back at sorting it out in around 16 hours, ie after sleep, work etc. We intend to list each lad's enlistment details in the following headings
Enlisted on XXXX at Age XXXX Occupation XXXXX and next of kin info at that time XXXXX at these addresses XXXXX
ID Disc handed over from German authorities on XXXXX stating KIA on a.m. /p.m. on XX/XX/XXXX
Other info gleaned from Enlistment records 1. xxxxx; 2.xxxxxxx: etc
If others have better Ideas, please let us know, and we will be on look out for separate threads.
Just Moi and OH, now very very tired and aching eyeballs! ::)
ADDED shortly after original posting: The missing in action clerical entries by Allied clerical officers have date as 20th, and the Germans have it as 19th. It could be significant in determining who was on what rotational roster at the front so that's why we are noting that detail even, all part of forensic genie detectiveness!
-
And another thing I thought, if they go on different threads, perhaps they ought to all stay together in the common room rather than go to their respective countries/counties.
-
John Toole
1911
Toole family not at 20 Everton Brow Liverpool
Doedoe
-
Hello everyone
Sandra is obviously on a major recruitment drive for Rootschat. ;)
I have included the UK Aussies in a tree that we have created on Ancestry under the title of 19 July 1916. It is a public tree, so anyone with a subscription can access it.
There is about a third of the British missing already uploaded with their genealogical details where possible.
In terms of the UK Aussies, I would like to place the details here for people to double check.
I have already contacted four people where the details of the trees overlap.
Regards
Mel
-
This thread caught my eye because last night on the news there was a report on Fromelles missing soldiers. It reported how archaeological work was going to begin. They hope to identify the remains that they find by using DNA and any artifacts they find. I typed Fromelles into google and came up with a few sites that are dealing with this.
Just thought you would like to know.
Ritchie
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Name: Douglas Caswell
1901 census information:
RG13/2783/46 p 17
Sand Pits, Powick, Worcestershire.
Edwin E Caswell 33 Coal Agent b Powick Worcestershire
Sophie M C Caswell 34 b Weisbaden Germany
Douglas Caswell 6 b Powick, Worcestershire
Nellie G Caswell b Powick
Margrate Caswell 4 b Powick
Ebborn? Ebbora J Caswell 1 b Powick
Name: Henry Gardner
1901 Census: RG13/3926/114 p 34
64 Belgrave St Blackburn
William Gardner 54 b Kirkham
Mary Gardner 54 b Dutton Lancashire
Richard H Gardner 23 b Slaidburn Yorkshire
Francis Gardner 21 b Slaidburn Yorkshire
Joseph Gardner 17 b Slaidurn Yorkshire
Henry Gardner 14 b Slaidburn Yorkshire
George Gardner 13 b Slaidburn Yorkshire
Moderator comment: edited to remove information copied/pasted from commercial source. Please see RootsChat Copyright Policy (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/copyright.php)
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Name: Sydney W Dennis
1891 Census information:
RG12/482/33 p3
Queens Road Peckham
William Dennis 38 Outfitter & draper b Devon
Elizabeth Dennis 38 b Cornwall
Ethel Dennis 11 b Upper Norwood Surrey
Marion Dennis 10 b Shepherd's Bush, Middlesex
Constance Dennis 8 b Balham
Adeline Dennis 6 b Balham Surrey
Sydney W Dennis 5 b Balham Surrey
Hilda M Dennis 2 b Balham Surrey
Dorothy Dennis 1 b Peckham Surrey
Name: Charles Hill
1891 census
RG12/615/104 p 63
Spring Gardens East Molesey Surrey
Alexander Hill 26 b Guildford Surrey
Ellen Hill 31 b Kingston on Thames
Charles Hill 2 b E Molesey
Ellen L Hill 1 b Ockley Surrey
Alexander Hill 3 weeks b E Molesey Surrey
Moderator comment: edited to remove information copied/pasted from commercial source. Please see RootsChat Copyright Policy (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/copyright.php)
-
I will post the rest later.
regards
Mel
-
There's a couple of separate threads for names on the 'common room' board. It was getting to information overload on this one! :) At least for me it was!
(copyright does not allow cutting and pasting from census sites! :) )
-
Silvery has started a new thread in the common room for Douglas Caswell. I think this is the best way to progress with this search - a new thread for each soldier. Is this something that the moderators can do - split this thread into one for each chap, or is that too difficult?
Now I know I'm only a newby here on Rootschat so feel free to howl me down but I think the easiest way to keep this whole thing from becoming too confusing is to create a 'sub-forum' called Fromelles and then list the details of each of these men in separate threads there (which keeps them all together).
Don't forget, these are just the UK born Aussies we've listed so far. There are quite a few natural born Aussies that we still seek descendants for!!
I guess it's a decision for the Moderators to make and with my 'wet behind the ears' status it's probably a bit forward of me to suggest.
Cheers,
Tim L.
-
removed as 'off track' - sorry ;)
-
Hi All,
Its my morning tea time here in NSW, and I have had a quick look at two of those lads AIF records, and I notice discrepancies between the dates the Aussies recorded as the KIA dates and the dates the Germans note this. The German records show the dates as 19 July 1916, and the Aussie records sometimes seem to have it as a day or more AFTER that.
The reason I am being a tad pedantic is quite simply that the German records are precise, and were forwarded to the AIF HQ in 1916. It may be that this will help others, external to this forum, to GO BACK OVER the entire list of probables KIA Aussies to re-confirm the names on the possible Fromelles fallen.
I explain quickly:
889 GARDNER (Remembering that the Germans and his own family used this spelling for his surname, as he did too and as did his boss from his civilian workplace) page 22 of 33 at his National Archives of Australia AIF records: He fell on the MORNING of 19 July in the Fromelles area "aust. Sold* G a r d n e r, H. Erk. Mrk* 889, 30. Bn am 19.7 in Genend Fromelles gefallen" I cannot read German, but I am sure he fell on the morning of 19 July 1916. which may indicate that many of the other 191 lads fell on that day rather than on the 20th or later.
They grow NOT old, as we that are left grow old, ....... LEST WE FORGET.
Just Moi, hoping to be able to help.
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It may well be that the confusion with the dates 19th versus 20th could be due to the fact that we in the Southern hemisphere are a day ahead of those in the Northern hemisphere, so a battle on the 19th would have been the 20th over here.
Or is that too obvious?
Alan NZ
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The battle took place on the night of the 19 - 20th July 1916.
Bright Blessings
Sandra
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Umm,
if the battle took place on the night 19th/20th then why is there consideration for those who fell on the MORNING of the 19th? (As per the German records)
Re the issues for international date line, I think the dates on the AIF records were recorded at the front, ie if the record shows "missing 20/7/1916" then "20" would be the date IN FRANCE, rather than the possible Aussie date of 21/7/1916, as Aussie would be some ten hours ahead.
Just Moi.
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I should have explained it better than I did ... apologies for that ... perhaps it might help to understand the battle if you have a look on the net for it or check your local library.
I just want to keep myself focussed on searching for the descendants which is my job with the Fromelles AIF lads. Apart from that battle histories make me too emotional and I get nothing done apart from crying :)
Bright Blessings
Sandra
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Hi Sandra
I would share my own box of tissues with you, but my work colleagues and I need them at this moment too, as we are all ummm, emotional over these missing lads.
You take good care of you and yours, and I'll do the same here, and perhaps the lads will be having a chuckle at our endeavours all these many decades later.
Just Moi
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Umm, FROMELLES
This was the the worst 24 hours in Australia's entire history. The Australians suffered 5,533 casualties in one night. The Australian toll at Fromelles was equivalent to the total Australian casualties in the Boer War, Korean War and Vietnam War put together. ..... The find is the biggest of its kind since the end of the Great War and may lead to the discovery of 399 soldiers who were killed but whose bodies were never found and the building of the first new British war cemetery since the Sixties. Of the dead, 239 are thought to be from the British 61st Division and 160 from the Australian 5th Division.
The soldiers perished in an Allied attack at Fromelles, 10 miles from Lille, ...... The battle, in which Adolf Hitler, then a 27-year-old corporal in the Bavarian reserve infantry is believed to have fought, was intended to divert German attention and troops away from the Battle of the Somme, the main offensive which was raging 50 miles to the south.
The attack on heavily fortified German positions on July 19/20, 1916 was, however, a disaster, leaving 5,500 Australian and 1,500 British troops dead or injured.
The missing 399 troops were known to be among the dead because their bodies were recovered by the Germans and their names and personal belongings passed to their families via the Red Cross. .....
Lest We Forget.
Moi and workmates
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http://www.awm.gov.au/wartime/36/article.asp
Cannot write words, no words are adequate enough to explain, just please go to this link at the Australian War Memorial's online website.
L E S T W E F O R G E T
Moi
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Ok, it seems there's a need for a little explanation of both the battle and the records.
On the evening of the 19th July, Australian and British troops made an advance against the German lines. In a few places they were able to occupy the German trenches and push beyond. These troops managed to hold the captured trenches overnight against shelling and counter attacks but by the morning of the 20th, the positions had become untenable and they had to retire back to their starting positions - handing back the captured trenches to the Germans.
The bodies of the soldiers who fell between the lines in no-man's land remained there for several years until war's end when Graves Registration Units were finally able to recover them. Unfortunately, by that time they were unable to be individually identified and were buried in surrounding cemeteries like VC Corner and listed as 'Known Unto God'.
However, the bodies of those who had fallen in or beyond the German lines were collected by the German troops and buried at Pheasant Wood (amongst other places). This was done in the days immediately after the battle mainly due to the risk of disease etc. Fortunately, the Germans removed all personal items and ID disks and recorded the details. Although the actual lists are nowhere to be found, individual German vouchers are evident in the service files of almost all these soldiers. Unfortunately for the British, almost two thirds of their WW1 records were destroyed during the blitz of WW2 and there is no clear way of establishing a defined list beyond those who went missing during the battle. Hence, their potential list is far larger than the Australian one and has no certainty.
The Australian documents have a variety of dates of death purely because in most cases they weren't sure whether the soldier had died on the 19th or 20th. In fact, to begin with, they thought that many of the men had actually been captured and it was only months after the battle that it was decided by way of Red Cross enquiries and German notification that these men had actually been killed. Thus, in many cases a nominal date was chosen and generally given as the 20th because this was when the battle ended and casualty counting began.
In fact, there are a number of these men listed as having been killed on the 21st July most likely because that's the first opportunity that particular battalion had to call the roll and record casualties. We now know that these men were killed during the battle but their names don't appear on any memorial at Fromelles and are instead on the Villers Brettoneux Memorial.
Further to that, one particular Australian has an official date of death as about September 1916, supposedly as a POW. This anecdotal information was given to the family fourth hand by someone who knew someone etc. and as a result was eventually recorded as such by the authorities. We now know this was completely wrong.
The German documents all say the 19th but this is because they record them from the date the battle began. They too would be unsure exactly when each Allied soldier was killed as they only recovered the bodies at the end of the battle when they were able to reoccupy their lines. I think it fair to assume that when they state "fallen at Fromelles on the 19th July", they are actually making reference to the battle which began on the 19th.
I hope this has cleared up a few questions. I wouldn't be too concerned with which side says what date as both were just estimations. Probably the best option would be to say they died on the 19/20th July.
I hope this has helped.
Cheers,
Tim L.
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Hi Tim and welcome !! ;D
I have watched and listened to your common sense on more than one site !! thank you for trying this one !!.... Poor Sandra ! .... it was my suggestion to give the RootsChatters a challenge .... sorry Sandra ... seemed like a good idea at the time .... :D :D just hope you can get something out of this !!
I thought most of the Aussies anyways would know EVERYTHING about Fromelles ....
theres a few of us who have been following the proceeding since practically day one ... here .... and especially on GWF and it's been a thriller thats for sure !!
Lets hope we can make a bit of a difference in that long list of yours !!
Annie :)
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ATTN: SANDRA
Not sure what you're going to think about this (more work :P) but I have another lad for you:
Another UK born soldier possibly in Fromelles Mass Grave. He was:
1291 Private George Honey aged 32 years
born Port Isaac, Cornwall, family later of Bodmin, Cornwall.
Parents William and Thura Honey.
[Name given to me from another researcher who requested that I pass it onto you :)]
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I've just been brushing up on the posts I missed.
Tim, your idea about a main Fromelles thread and a sub thread for each soldier by name is an excellent idea! I for one am very confused and the info about some of the individual soldiers has been repeated several times ... or does it just seem like that? ::)
Your explanation of the battle is very interesting and easy to understand.
Newbie or not your contibutions make perfect sense.
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Thanks Ruskie ... he is on our list ... if you go to www.fromelles.net and check the list of names you will see he is there.
He enlisted in Western Australia (where I live )... however, having another family contact is wonderful (even more so because he is from my family's stamping ground in Cornwall)
Can you send me a pm with the email address :)
Bright Blessings
Sandra
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Hi All, Especially Sandra and Tim,
My OH and I will wait and see if the Moderators make separate threads for each lad on the list at page 1 of this thread, before we post results of our trawling through their AIF records, however we will also check our GR subscription to see if we can find any current members there who may have forebears on that list. If so we will pm Sandra with any possible clues there.
OH has asked me to emphasise that even if we are duplicating anyone's previous work we would not ever consider this to be a chore, and we are not making adverse criticisms of anyone. I have explained to him that no-one has even suggested that concept, and that the task that is important is to find descendants. He is a mechanical engineer, you know, sees things as black or white, rather than in shades of grey. But he understands this task is about finding possible descendants so it is a matter of finding shadows of clues and sharing them tactfully and with respect.
We await the Moderators considerations as to separate threads for each Lad.
Just Moi
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Regarding Benjamin Richardson, who gave his family in Blaxhall as next of kin, we have a lead and I am expecting a telephone call this afternoon.
Tim, for me the saddest aspect of the battle at Fromelles, as told on television and radio here in the UK, is the fact that these men and boys were trying to divert attention away from the Battle of the Somme. Instead we lost even more lives.
Pat ...
(researching the names on the War Memorial in Little Waldingfield, Suffolk
www.sudburysuffolk.co.uk/greatwar)
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Australians first read of this battle in newspapers. Here is how it was initially reported to the civilian population here in Australia
OTHER WESTERN LINES AUSTRALIANS IN ACTION. SUCCESSFUL RAIDS.LONDON July 20. General Haig, in his report this morning, announces raids in which Australian troops played a part, as folows : -
Yesterday evening (Wednesday), to the south of Armentieres, and the north-west of Lille, we carried out some important raids along a front of two miles. The Australians took part in the raids. About 140 Germans were made prisoner.
EXCELLENT RESULTS.LONDON, July 20. The newspapers give prominence to the excellent results which attended the raids by the Australians in the Armentieres-Lille region. The raids were on a more extensive front than any General Haig had previously reported.
GERMAN VERSION. AMSTERDAM. July 20.
To-day's German communique states : The English yesterday attacked with considerable force our positions west and north of Fromelles, but were thrown back by our counter-attacks from the points which they penetrated. We took 300 prisoners.
This cutting is from the Tasmanian newspaper The Mercury, published in Hobart 22 July 1916.
http://ndpbeta.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/1023956?searchTerm=%22fromelles%22
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My OH and I will wait and see if the Moderators make separate threads for each lad on the list at page 1
As there are a lot of people on this list, we think it better for you to decide who you want to research further :)
Start a new topic, titled "Fromelles - 'name being researched' ", and inform a moderator.
We will add the topic link to the original list. (see the originating message for some examples).
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,379339.msg2522803.html#msg2522803
If there are already replies on this topic about particular individuals, and you wish to add more, let the moderators know. We can then "split off" the existing material to form a new topic for you :)
Bob
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Regarding Benjamin Richardson, who gave his family in Blaxhall as next of kin, we have a lead and I am expecting a telephone call this afternoon.
Tim, for me the saddest aspect of the battle at Fromelles, as told on television and radio here in the UK, is the fact that these men and boys were trying to divert attention away from the Battle of the Somme. Instead we lost even more lives.
Pat ...
(researching the names on the War Memorial in Little Waldingfield, Suffolk
www.sudburysuffolk.co.uk/greatwar)
Hi Pat,
Drifting off topic for a moment, can I just say how wonderful that Sudbury website is?
Glen
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Thanks Pat ... getting a bit excited now :)
Bright Blessings
Sandra
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Some of you have requested a"gathering" on this, and some of you may have noticed the new Mod on the AF board...
The x2 have come together in this thread to try and keep track of the Fromelles names...
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,380152.0.html
Send me a PM of any new name threads, and I will add them...Do stick with me a bit, as this RC Modding is all new to me... ;D ;D
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I have listed all the information I have on names earlier on the common room thread.
Bright Blessings
Sandra
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Unfortunately, the Gurus found on the AF boards do not frequent the Common Room!
I feel that far from being a place where everyone looks, it certainly hides things away from those members who spend their time helping the questioners on AF, and don't have time to look around there! ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I did post the list on the WW1 forum :)
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And we are obliged!
;D ;D ;D ;D
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Another UK lad missing at FROMELLES serving with the AIF was 1291 Private George Honey.He was born in Port Isaac, Cornwall 1886 to William Honey, fisherman and his wife Thura. Other siblings then were John(15), Mary(13), Harry(10), James(8) and Gregory (new born).
In 1901 the family were living in Bodmin, Cornwall.
We would love to find his family.
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Good morning boykett, and welcome to Rootschat. ;)
We are gradually giving each of these lads their own thread, as it is getting a bit confusing with all the families which need to be found. So someone will probably give George his own thread soon. ;D
In the meantime I will see if I can find the Honey family on the 1901 census.
Moderator Comment: more on George HONEY at
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,380242.0.html
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There is so much happening with this topic and having just taken a good look at all the posts (I think) I could not find a complete list of names UK and AUS soldiers.
Forgive me if this has already been done .... if not here is a link;
http://www.cwgc.org/fromelles/?page=english/the-project/lists/casualty_lists
Joe
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Australian soldiers are here too:
www.fromelles.net
Bright Blessings
Sandra
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There is so much happening with this topic and having just taken a good look at all the posts (I think) I could not find a complete list of names UK and AUS soldiers.
Forgive me if this has already been done .... if not here is a link;
http://www.cwgc.org/fromelles/?page=english/the-project/lists/casualty_lists
Joe
Arrgghh!!
The British link doesn't work.... :o :o :(
ANZAC one does though ::) ;)
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Strange scrimnet ... I have just clicked on the link in your latest post and can get both.... there are 8 pages of UK personel and 3 pages of Australians ... some of which would be UK born but joined the AIF.
I use 'foxit' reader rather than adobe although that should not make any difference.
Try again and see what happens.
Joe
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Hi All,
I have just checked the Service records of all of these. It looks like only three of them had family in Australia;
Douglas Caswell, 397
Jack Joyce, 1624
James Ross, 1216
The others next of kin have addresses in the UK as listed.
I will have a look on Australian electoral rolls for the Aussie ones.
mum mum
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Hi again,
Douglas Caswell NOK Sophie Caswell.
Sophie arrived Aust 28-9-1913 at Sydney. 1930 1nd 1936 electoral roll at Newcastle. Died 1953 Newcastle.
Two sisters on board ship, Nellie and Margaret.
Nelly G Caswell married Gordon K McLennan 1917 at Stockton
Margaret Caswell married John H Le Cornu 1919 at Stockton
Can't find douglas arriving Australia, must have been before Mum and the girls.
mum mum
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Hi mum mum,
Hope you will not mind my correcting your pace of the marriages of the 2 girls to STOCKTON, NSW.
Just so as to avoid confusion :D
Sue
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Hi
Sorry, thats a typo on my part, I wrote down stockton when I looked it up.
Found them both on the electoral rolls and found a living descendant of Nelly's on Ancestry. I have sent her a message and hope she gets back to me.
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Here is Margret's death in NSW
34894/1961 LE CORNU, MARGARET father EBBORN EDWIN mother SOPHIE MARY C @ NEWCASTLE
Have had a look about, but can't find anything to take the next step.
Found her husband's parents and family burials around Morpeth and Mudgee, but not John and Magaret's.
Sue
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There is so much happening with this topic and having just taken a good look at all the posts (I think) I could not find a complete list of names UK and AUS soldiers.
Forgive me if this has already been done .... if not here is a link;
http://www.cwgc.org/fromelles/?page=english/the-project/lists/casualty_lists
Joe
Arrgghh!!
The British link doesn't work.... :o :o :(
ANZAC one does though ::) ;)
Scrim
Put this into your spreadsheet. It's a tab delimited file.
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Strange scrimnet ... I have just clicked on the link in your latest post and can get both.... there are 8 pages of UK personel and 3 pages of Australians ... some of which would be UK born but joined the AIF.
I use 'foxit' reader rather than adobe although that should not make any difference.
Try again and see what happens.
Joe
Still can't open the file....
Is this just an issue betwixt joboy and me, or can anyone else open the British list??
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There is so much happening with this topic and having just taken a good look at all the posts (I think) I could not find a complete list of names UK and AUS soldiers.
Forgive me if this has already been done .... if not here is a link;
http://www.cwgc.org/fromelles/?page=english/the-project/lists/casualty_lists
Joe
Arrgghh!!
The British link doesn't work.... :o :o :(
ANZAC one does though ::) ;)
Scrim
Put this into your spreadsheet. It's a tab delimited file.
Nice mate thanks....At least I can check the names now!!
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Just so you know, Scrimnet.......I can open the British link......
Dee
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Hi again,
Douglas Caswell NOK Sophie Caswell.
Sophie arrived Aust 28-9-1913 at Sydney. 1930 1nd 1936 electoral roll at Newcastle. Died 1953 Newcastle.
Two sisters on board ship, Nellie and Margaret.
Nelly G Caswell married Gordon K McLennan 1917 at Stockton
Margaret Caswell married John H Le Cornu 1919 at Stockton
Can't find douglas arriving Australia, must have been before Mum and the girls.
mum mum
Hi mum mum,
Nice find!! :o Could you re-post this on the Douglas Caswell thread too please? This explains why I couldn't find any offspring for the Nelly Gertrude and Margaret.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,379789
All,
If we can't find sibling family would it be of value to look for cousins' family and if so would the male line or the female line be of more use for DNA matching?
Paul
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Strange scrimnet ... I have just clicked on the link in your latest post and can get both.... there are 8 pages of UK personel and 3 pages of Australians ... some of which would be UK born but joined the AIF.
I use 'foxit' reader rather than adobe although that should not make any difference.
Try again and see what happens.
Joe
Still can't open the file....
Is this just an issue betwixt joboy and me, or can anyone else open the British list??
Opened fine here - using Adobe 7.
Gaille
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Aussie knowledge required here please:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,379789.msg2533122.html#msg2533122
Paul
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Hi,
I would post this on the Douglas Caswell thread if I could find it. There are so many threads now, I cant find what I'm looking for. I found the info, I have tried to contact a lady on Ancestry. I can't do much more short of ringing everyone in Newcastle with the same name as her.
mum mum
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Hi mum mum,
The thread for Douglas is here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,379789
Just click on the link. It should take you straight there.
I've hit a frustrating dead end with a descendant of Douglas' uncle Ernest. I also do not intend phoning every Stephens in Worcester. ;D
Paul
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Hi all,
Nelly Caswell is on an Ancestry tree, she had a daughter Honor Caswell Mclennan who has a living descendant.
I have sent a message to this person but she may no longer be a member of Ancestry.
There are three white pages listings in Newcastle for the same name as the living descendant.
mum mum
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Sorry for bumping the thread, but I've searched the site and cannot find a thread for Private Albert Dale.
I've recently found that my family are decendants of a brother of Albert Dale. However, I do realise we are not direct ancestors.
Thanks.
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Welcome to rootschat chana.
No apologies are required for bumping up the thread. ;D
I've just had a look and can't find Albert Dale either. Highly likely I am missing something. ;) Someone who knows more is sure to jump in and help soon.
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Hi Chana (you to Ruskie ;D)
The reason there is no listing for 6066 Private Albert Dale, 2/6th Warwicks, is simply because Fedelmar and I are researching the Australian soldiers buried at Pheasant Wood and posted details of a few of them here. The assistance we have received here has been magnificent and I'm sure if you start a thread about Albert, you'll also find people jumping in with excellent information.
If you would like to read more about the British soldiers and register yourself as a descendant of the family, go to the CWGC's 'Remembering Fromelles' website at: http://www.cwgc.org/fromelles/?page=english/the-project/casualty_lists
Cheers,
Tim L.
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Thanks for the explanation Tim. I was worried that I'd missed something. ;)
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Hi Chana (you to Ruskie ;D)
The reason there is no listing for 6066 Private Albert Dale, 2/6th Warwicks, is simply because Fedelmar and I are researching the Australian soldiers buried at Pheasant Wood and posted details of a few of them here. The assistance we have received here has been magnificent and I'm sure if you start a thread about Albert, you'll also find people jumping in with excellent information.
If you would like to read more about the British soldiers and register yourself as a descendant of the family, go to the CWGC's 'Remembering Fromelles' website at: http://www.cwgc.org/fromelles/?page=english/the-project/casualty_lists
Cheers,
Tim L.
Hi Tim,
That would explain it, thank you.
I emailed them yesterday to say I thought I was, just waiting to hear back now.
I have a very limited knowledge of Albert Dale, so that may be a good way to get information.
Thank you.
Hannah
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Links to all the soldiery being researched on RC can be found on this thread...
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,380152.0.html
;D ;D
It is stickied at the top of the WW1 board...
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Hi all, great work your all doing, I have a wee bit of info on the family of Robert Grieve Moncrieff Scott, He was born 15 Jan 1895 at 175 South st, Perth, Scotland, His father was Andrew Moncrieff Scott, Mother Christian Bryden Scott M.S Grieve. Andrew remarried in 1917 to Elizabeth McKay (Glasgow) on marriage cert he is down as a widower, so looks like Roberts mother passed away prior to 1917. Andrew died in 1919 from fracture to skull. Andrews mother and father were Robert Scott and Marion Moncrieff. Christians parents were Robert Grieve and Janet Brydon, Andrew and Christian married in Perth Scotland 5 April 1893 both sets of parents were deceased at this time.
All the best
Steve
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thanks Steve :)
Fingers crossed we can all pull together to get this boy identified.
Bright Blessings
Sandra
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Hi all,
No. 4581 Pte Benjamin Richardson may appear on the Kangaroo Valley War Memorial in the southern highlands of NSW Australia. There are only 5 B. Richardson's on the Nominal Roll, and he is the only KIA. There are no Albert (Bert) Richardson's that fit either.
I have no idea what took him into the Valley, but if it is him, he must have endeared himself to the townsfolk there as they included him on the memorial built September 1920 from public money.
It appears he may have gone there after he migrated to AUS in 1913 and then enlisted 1915 for a possible return to the Old Dart.
Has anyone found out anything more on him ? I am researching servicemen from the Valley.
Regards,
Geoff
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Hello Geoff
I take it when you say the Valley that you mean the Hunter Valley. If this is the case David Dail will be a good person to ask. He is very up to speed on the Hunter Valley boys.
Please let us know how you get on.
Bright Blessings
Sandra
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Hi Sandra,
Not the Hunter Valley, but Kangaroo Valley, a small village behind Nowra on the south cost of NSW.
Regards,
Geoff
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Geoff ... well the Hunter Valley is so well known :)
Have you considered checkiing all the newspapers for the area at the time of the war and post war. There may be newspaper articles concerning the memorial and the names that appear on it.
Another source of info is the local studies/history society and even the Council. I have sometimes found that there are little bits and pieces tucked away that are long forgotten.
Good luck :)
Bright Blessings
Sandra
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Hi Geoff,
Welcome to RChat ;)
This link is for the main thread for Pte Robinson,
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,380201.0.html
Cheers, JM
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Thanks Sandra and JM,
I have been researching these guys for about 5 years and as you know you come on a gem or a new lead every now and again. I am a newcomer to Rootschat from a Googel search of BR's name.
I am currently living and working in India but am due to return to AUS after July when I will do some searches of the news media as you suggest. I know the State Libray in SYD has most of that on microfiche (is that the right spelling ??)
Regards,
gt
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That is the correct spelling :)
I have been having a text conversation with my 'partner in crime' (Tim) and he may well get back to you later this evening.
(Ms Marple needs to crack the whip around Sherlock's (Tim) ankles every now and again).
Bright Blessings
Sandra