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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Northumberland => England => Northumberland Lookup Requests => Topic started by: MKG on Friday 01 May 09 01:16 BST (UK)
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Hello again
I haven't the faintest idea if such a search is even possible, but I'm looking for the occupants of 67 High Street and 3 Walkergate Lane, both in Berwick upon Tweed, in 1891. I tried to make a start with the 1881 census on FamilySearch, but that won't allow an address search. Doesn't really matter - as I said, it's 1891 I'm really interested in.
Mike
EDIT: Just tried 1901CensusOnline. According to them, no-one lived at either address between 1841 and 1901. Both addresses were shops (at least, they were in 1891). Could this be true, or is it a ruse to get me further into their site?
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Hi :)
No 3 Walkergate Lane as such that I can see. 1 & 3a are the nearest. Not sure if you have access so will give the ref:
1 & 3a Walkergate Lane
RG12/4267 F 104 P 1
Head: Margaret Piercy, wid, 46, Pawn Broker, b. Scotland
I don't see a High Street listing for Berwick :-\
Gadget
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Hi Mike
Just had a look at Watergate Lane in the 1881 census. Have seen 1, 5, 2 and 4 but no 3. Very strange. However those numbers mentioned were fishmongers, a pawn broker and a furniture dealer. So this leads me to thinking that if 3 did exist at that time it would have been a shop.
For reference if you want to have a look number 1 and 5 Watergate Lane was on record
RG11/5130/10/13
Might be worth looking for those names in the 1891 census to see if they are still there.
Evie
Added: You beat me to it Gadget :) might as well post anyway. Interesting no 3 for you either.
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Just noticed that Mike doesn't have full access so:
1 & 3a Walkergate Lane
RG12/4267 F 104 P 1
Margaret King, wid, 46, Pawn Broker, b. Scotland
Andrew, s, 16, ? commercial,
Elizabeth A or O, d, 12
John T, s, 10
Ellen, s, 8
Thomas, s, 6
James A, s, 4
Henry Black, son in law, 22, Draper, b. Alnwick
Margaret Jane, d, 22
Margaret P, grddaughter, 3 months, b. Berwick
Others b. Ord
Gadget
Added - looks to me as if No 1 was a residential property where the Piercys lived, No 3 was a Pawnshop/Drapers with the Black family living above at 3a. They all, however, appear to be living as one household.
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Nope cannot see a High Street on 1881 either. So I tried putting in various occupations that I would have thought would be on a High Street, grocer, inn keeper, chemist, general dealer, confectioner, tobacconist, etc but no luck I'm afraid.
Evie
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The only way of finding if there were any households in High Street, is to go through each Enumeration District description (there are 14 plus the hospital and the workhouse) and see if High Street is mentioned. Walkergate Lane is in District 9 and doesn't include High Street.
I did a thorough address search for High Street and nothing came up.
Gadget
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According to the Postcode finder on Royal Mail, there is no such place as High Street, Berwick upon Tweed :-\
I don't see it on Multimap either - could it be the continuation of Castlegate/Marygate on the A1167 which is the main thoroughfare, parallel to the river.
Or it could be High Greens.
Gadget
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Interestingly in the 1911 (as well as the 1901 as you found Mike) an address for High Street Berwick does show up 328 results, 80 of which are Head of household. I know not much help, but it does now exist. I wonder if there has been a change of street names over the decade of 1891 and 1901.
Evie
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Can you click on the ED header, Evie and see where it is close to :-\
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Hi Gadget
Yes certainly, where is the ED Header?
I picked an occupation at random and found the same chap in 1891 census, Frederick Ayton
RG13/4844/122/7
Bringing up loads of even numbers for High Street, just having a look to see which street it leads onto.
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High Street, Berwick is now Marygate.
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According to the Postcode finder on Royal Mail, there is no such place as High Street, Berwick upon Tweed :-\
I don't see it on Multimap either - could it be the continuation of Castlegate/Marygate on the A1167 which is the main thoroughfare, parallel to the river.
Or it could be High Greens.
Gadget
So it is the A1167 then - but was it Marygate in 1891?
Gadget
Added - look for Marygate and Castlegate, evie :)
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Hi jora :)
What's confusing me is that in 1881 and 1911 there was also a Marygate :-\
Evie
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In 1901 after High Street was the town hall then Crawford's alley, if that is of any help
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67 Marygate was occupied by a Mr Gunn the Grocer in 1891:
RG12/4267 F 74 P 1
I'm a bit busy at the mnoment - could someone transcribe just in case, please - it's a big family :-\
Gadget
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Well, what a lot has gone on while I've been offline! Thanks, everyone, for your efforts so far. The addresses actually came from the 1894 Directory of Northumberland, so I know who ran the shops in that year (Gadget and Jora, you may remember a certain Italian lady?). 1891, though, is a bit on the crucial side for events in my family. Knowing who was at those addresses then tells me an awful lot (or, as it may turn out, knowing who was NOT at those addresses).
Anyway, knowing now that the Walkergate premises was a pawnbrokers/drapers transfers attention to the High Street/Marygate address - and if that one turns out to be a confectioner/ice cream maker, it's Bingo time. If it doesn't, I have a fair bit of rethinking to do :)
Mike
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Mike - do you have the name of the ice cream/confectioner - it might help because it obviously wasn't Mr Gunn the Grocer :-\
gadget
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There's a John Bishop,confectioner living at No 81 :-\
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In 1911 there is a Thomas Bishop, born abt 1862, confectioner living High Street
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Hi Gadget
The answer is yes and no. In 1894, both shops were being run by Mrs. Maria Antonia Rizza and both were ice cream shops. But Maria was only 16 at census time in 1891 and living either in Glasgow or, at a push, still in Italy. It's her husband (Michelangelo Rizza or Rizzo) who was the confectioner, but he's with his brother in Glasgow on the 1891 census. However, he was one of the many Glaswegian Italians who got out because of the huge amount of competition in that city (from fellow Italians), and I know he was present in Berwick at very regular intervals no later than the beginning of 1891. But neither the husband nor the wife will appear in the Berwick census.
However, his presence in Berwick was probably to do with the setting up of his business which was later to be run by his wife while he had a look around Edinburgh. I'm just hoping that I may be able to link the name of whoever was in the High Street shop at the time to Michelangelo.
I'm beginning to wonder when the street name change from High Street to Marygate occurred, and whether that had big effects upon the house numbering?
Mike
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Just after Marygate, there's a Samuel Oliphant, Master Confectioner living at 10 and 12 Golden Square.
This is in ED 7. ED is the High Greens end of Marygate and ED 8 is around the Town Hall and West of Church Street, if that's any good.
Looks like ED 8 might be the one.
I've not been in the centre of Berwick for about 10 years :-\
Gadget
Maybe it's John Bishop's son, evie
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Another thought occurs to me - if the High Street shop was in the process of being "done up" by Michelangelo and was therefore empty, would it be listed at all or would there just be no mention of it?
Mike
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Hello Mike,
Just to help to clear up the street name confusion - Marygate is the old mediaeval name, and High Street was the same place - the two names seem to have existed quite happily side by side.
At the moment, the official postal address is Marygate.
Regarding the numbering, I don't think there has been any radical change. In 1897 Nicol Miller Craig acquired the premises at 63, High Street, a chemist's shop (Carr). He remodelled the shop putting in new plate glass windows. This shop is now the British Heart Foundation charity shop, and it is still numbered 63.
If Nicol Craig was remodelling his shop in the mid 1890s, is it possible that other properties in the same block were also available for redevelopment????
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So jora
Would you say that the 67 Marygate on the 1891 is the same as 67 High Street?
Because if so, it was occupied by the Mr Gunn, grocer, and his large family.
Gadget
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Hmmm - looks that way, Gadget. Knowing my luck, Mr. Gunn probably sold his premises to Michelangelo the day after the census!
No, no no - that can't be right either. The 1891 census was April 5th and Michelangelo was doing something in Berwick at the beginning of that year. And, of course, it's at times like this that the simplest things begin to worry you. It could be, I suppose, that Michelangelo began his business in NEITHER of those addresses but acquired them a couple of years later.
Oh for a complete commercial history of Berwick!
Mike
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The premises next to Mr Gunn, 63 and 65 and 69 and 71, were empty. No No 70. Mr Gunn occupied 66 and 67. Maybe he sold off/re-leased to Michelangelo or there was some movement :-\
Do you have a John Gunn, grocer, listed in your directory?
Gadget
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;D Thought of that about the same time you did.
But, wouldn't you know it, historicaldirectories.org appears to be unobtainable at the moment. I'm convinced I have a pdf file somewhere, so I'm still looking. Watch this space.
Mike
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Okay - searches done in the 1894 directory ...
No sign of John Gunn (or any Gunn for that matter).
Margaret Piercy is still a pawnbroker - but listed only at 1 Walkergate Lane.
Searching 3 Walkergate Lane throws up only Maria Rizza
Searching 67 High Street throws up only Maria Rizza.
Searching 67 Marygate throws up nothing.
Any thoughts?
Mike
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Just a thought:
If Michaelangelo only rented the shop he would not be on the census. He would be living elsewhere.
Rog
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I checked as soon as Mike gave me the name and no Rizza(variations) living in Berwick in 1891 that I could see.
Is it Michelangel that you're trying to locate, Mike?
Added - I see that you have Michelangelo in Glasgow and it's Maria you're looking for but she might be in Glasgow or Italy so I'm not sure who we're looking for :-\
What was her maiden surname?
Gadget
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By 1901, John Gunn, aged 57, was living at 37 Ravensdowne(?), Berwick, no occupation stated RG13/4844/149/25
No one is living at 67 High Street
A possible scenario is that Michelangelo leased/bought the property from him between 1891 and 1894 and John Gunn retired. Also, as Rog says, the trade directory will just list the premises from where they were trading rather than where they were living.
GAdget
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No, I'm not trying to locate the Rizzas - I know full well who they are. Michelangelo is (99% sure) my great-grandfather but Maria is not my great-grandmother. What I'm trying to do is get as close as I possibly can to the date of Michelangelo's first appearance in Berwick (not necessarily as a resident, but maybe as someone checking the area out for business opportunities. An awful lot of Glaswegian Italian ice cream makers did the same thing at about the same time). I think it would have been some time in 1890 and nothing I've seen so far says that can't be correct (or incorrect, if the truth be told). On the other hand, this thread is making it look like I'm not going to get any closer.
I've been labouring under what is now clearly a misapprehension - that he immediately set up one or both of the ice cream shops we can see in 1894. Of course, he didn't necessarily do any such thing. But all he actually has to be doing is getting off the Leith-Berwick ferry fairly often, because that's how my otherwise-attached great-grandmother knew when he was in town.
And, as has been pointed out, if he's staying at a pub or has a rented room, he would probably still register for the census at his Glasgow address - which is what he did. So, if anyone has a guest book for the Miners Arms at Tweedmouth, it could be very handy indeed. But miracles tend not to happen ::)
Mike
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I think we cross posted.
Not sure if a property register would be of any use. Now all property is registered, you can't get the full details of the property's owners/tenants.
Bit of a wild goose chase really - I think I'll go to the Stadium of Light ::)
Gadget
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;D ;D ;D
Now that is sheer desperation. After nearly forty years of following Sunderland, even I am beginning to transfer my allegiance to Doncaster Rovers,
Mike
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I don't suppose he might have had some sort of concession for supplying ice cream to the holidaymakers on the beach? A sort of Mr. Whippy of the 19th century? Spittal was quite a resort for holidaymakers in those days. Handsome Italian ice cream man with twirly moustache - what a lady-killer!
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and what about poor Maria - kind of NorthEastside Story, really :-\
I'm not joking about the S Of L - I've got a season ticket ;D
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You know, Jora, I knew that about Spittal but it hadn't clicked. And, given where my great-grandmother lived, that would fit the bill perfectly for a chance meeting. Wonderful - all he needed was a hut and some ice. At least it's a consistent story. All I need now is a photo of Spittal Beach with said moustachioed ice cream seller and a clearly visible copy of the Berwick News.
Mike
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I checked as soon as Mike gave me the name and no Rizza(variations) living in Berwick in 1891 that I could see.
Is it Michelangel that you're trying to locate, Mike?
Added - I see that you have Michelangelo in Glasgow and it's Maria you're looking for but she might be in Glasgow or Italy so I'm not sure who we're looking for :-\
What was her maiden surname?
Just come across this old post..Michelangelo Rizza did have a Ice Cream shop, that was run by his wife ...i have a lot of info and history, on this Rizza family, my uncle married into...if it is the Rizza you are looking for??
Gadget
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Hi dizzybella
That's the man ;D
I'm sending you a PM with my email address.
Your choice of username is interesting - do Isabellas run in your family too?
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... and I've just noticed that I left an unanswered question hanging.
Maria's maiden surname was Pacelli (same as Hitler's Pope, but that's not surprising as she was a distant cousin of his - I got that little snippet from her great (a few times) grandaughter.