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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: francesr on Saturday 25 April 09 02:33 BST (UK)
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I'd be most grateful for the whereabouts of JAMES BARNARD b. Hackney c.1809, government printer (Tasmania). He was visiting England at this time. His wife Charlotte and daughter Charlotte Emily are both registered in Hackney in 1861 and 3 sons in Godmanchester. So where was James? Thanks very much.
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Misenumerated by the census enumerator and or mistranscribed by the indexer or lodging somewhere and missed off the household schedule by whoever filled it in, or after a hard day collecting and helping to fill in household schedules, missed off by the census enumerator when copying out the household schedules into the census enumerator's book (all household schedules were subsequently destroyed and no checks were made), or on census night he was staying in one of the sections of the 1861 census that has been lost.
This website (half way down) lists the London sections that have not survived.
http://www.findmypast.com/helpadvice/knowledge-base/census/
Regards
Valda
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I've had a good look on The Genealogist, and found several the right age, but none of them born in Hackney. Perhaps he was missed off the record, as suggested.
April
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Dear Valda and April,
Thanks so much for this. I am wondering if perhaps JB wasn't born in Hackney after all? I got this info from the Australian Dictionary of Biography. Could you send me the 2 JB's you have found April? I might be able to tell from his profession? Thanks.
I really appreciate your help. Sometimes it's a bit like 'hacking through the wilderness' trying to find information!
Frances
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Hi Frances
Across the whole of England there are 21 James Barnards showing on the 1861 census index I have access to who were born within 5 years of the date you cited. Ignoring the ones that appear to have wives with them that brings it down to 7 with only one in the London area and one misindexed in the London area.
Born circa 1811 in Hampton Middlesex in Stepney a tailor. Unmarried though he had a daughter Jane aged 13 born St Lukes Middlesex with him.
There is another misindexed as James who is actually Jane Barnard a daughter born circa 1811 with her mother.
There are three other James Barnards in London but they all have wives with them.
Born circa 1811 in Havering Essex a waiter in Islington
James E H. born cira 1811 in Deptford Kent a lighterman in St George in the East
Born circa 1813 in Tewkesbury Gloucestershire a house painter in Islington.
Of the James Barnards outside of London with no wives – 6
Born circa 1804 in Deerhurst Gloucestershire and in the same place on the census and unmarried butcher.
Born circa 1805 in Writtle Essex and lodging there an unmarried ag lab.
Born circa 1806 in Sullington Sussex and in Ashurst Sussex an unmarried ag lab
Born circa 1809 in High Ham Somerset and in the same place on the census an unmarried farmer.
Born circa 1811 in Haughley and in Wetherden Suffolk an ag lab who was a widower.
Born circa 1814 Bardfield Saling, Essex and in the same place for the census an unmarried ag lab.
That leaves 11 James Barnards outside of the London area but who all appear from the index to have wives with them.
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda,
Oh, you are good - thank you for all this. Well, my James Barnard is definitely not any of these, so it looks as though you were right the first time ie. census night or missing records problems. At least I know for sure now so I'll end this strand of my enquiries I think.
Thanks again!
regards,
Frances
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I have another Barnard query please - should I make this a new post altogether?
I would like to know where to search for Edward Barnard, 1786-1861. He was co-agent general for the Crown Colonies (1820's till his death). I have heaps on his public life and from the 1841 census on, but nothing on his parents, siblings, wife (except her name: Jane,) or children. He went to Eton.
I'd be most grateful.
Thanks.
Francesr
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Hi
Part 1
Since Edward was a man of some standing he may have left a will which would tell you more about his family. After 1858 wills were probated nationally not in local church courts
http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/infoabout/civil/probate/index.htm
Edward gives conflicting birthplaces on the censuses. St George Hanover Square baptism registers are not indexed on the IGI. The parish registers are held at Westminster Archives.
Chiselhurst Kent baptism registers are not indexed by the IGI. The registers are held at Kent Archives in Maidstone. The Bishop Transcripts for Chiselhurst baptisms are indexed on the BVRI.
There are Barnard baptisms but none for an Edward circa 1786.
James and Mary Barnard baptised three children there
James 1784
Basden 1786
Sarah 1799
Basden had one child baptised there in 1811. According to a tree on the interent Sarah Barnard married Henry James and was living in Chiselhurst in 1851. The census entry shows Henry was a shoemaker.
The other Barnard family of Edward and Mary Ann(e) were of a higher social standing. They had four children baptised in Chiselhurst between 1788-1794.
Marianne Beadon 1788
Charles Townshend 1790
Henry Watson 1792
John 1794
Prerogative Court of Canterbury will
Will of Reverend Henry Watson Barnard, Clerk of Wells , Somerset
Date 03 October 1855
Catalogue reference PROB 11/2220
1851 census HO107 1934 folio
Liberty Wells Somerset
Henry W Barnard 59 Head Married Magistrate of the county and Vicar of St Cuthbert and Cannon of the Cathedral Chiselhurst Kent
Eleanor Barnard 50 Wife Married ? Bucks
Fanny S Barnard 27 Daughter Pilton Somerset
Edward T Barnard 25 Son Late of the Army Southampton
Emily H Barnard 17 Daughter Wells Somerset
plus 3 servants
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_W._Barnard
Reverend Henry Watson BARNARD, Vicar of St.Cuthbert’s and Canon of Wells, died 9th July 1855, aged 63 years, at Granada
http://website.lineone.net/~stephaniebidmead/malaga.htm
He apparently died of cholera.
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=NG8DAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA222&dq=%22henry+watson+barnard%22&lr=
Google books a partial quote
Admissions to the college of St. John the Evangelist in the University of ...by St. John's College (University of Cambridge),
'Two of their sons were members of the College: Charles Townsend Barnard (BA 1812) and Henry Watson Barnard (BA 1815); a third John Barnard was of King's ...'
It looks like Charles Townsend Barnard may have ended up in Dresden
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=4CkSAAAAYAAJ&pg=PT232&dq=%22charles+townsend+barnard%22&lr=&as_drrb_is=q&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is=&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is=&num=100&as_brr=0
1861 census RG9 2221 folio 41
5 Clarence Terrace Leamington Priors Warwickshire
John Barnard 66 Visitor Unmarried ? Fellow of Kings College Cambridge Chiselhurst Kent
visiting in Bath on the 1871 census
Regards
Valda
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Hi
Part 2
Their sister
Prerogative Court of Canterbury will
Will of Marianne Beadon Barnard, Spinster of Littlehampton , Sussex
Date 20 June 1851
Catalogue reference PROB 11/2133
1851 census HO107 1651 folio 498
Beach Terrace Littlehampton Sussex
Henry Layton 52 Head Married Captain R N ? Chigwell Essex
Charlotte Layton 52 Wife Married Kilkenny Ireland
Marianne Barnard 63 Sister Unmarried Chiselhurst Kent
plus 2 servants
1841 census HO107 1093/6 folio 14
Beach Cottage Littlehampton Sussex
Mary Barnard 76 Ind
Maryan Barnard 50
Charlotte Layton 40
Heny Layton 42 C R N
none born Sussex
plus 3 servants
Deaths Jun 1851
Barnard Marianne * Worthing 7 *
I think from a snippet on Google books and another record that this man may have been the grandfather to these Barnards born in Chiselhurst
PCC will
Will of Reverend Edward Barnard, Doctor in Divinity, Provost of Eton College , Buckinghamshire 14 December 1781 PROB 11/1084
Annals of the King's College of Our Lady of Eton Beside Windsor - Page 169 by Wasey Sterry - 1898
... the election of Dr. Edward Barnard, Fellow of St. John's College Cambridge,
... He was in 1752 private tutor at Eton to Charles and Henry Townshend. ...
Copy of Court Roll DE/Pr/77790 15 December, 1786
Related information: 4 fifth parts of property as in DE/Pr/77777, and property as in DE/Pr/77515
Contents:
Admission of Edward Barnard of Chislehurst, Kent, esq, son and heir of Rev Edward Barnard, D D, late Provost of Eton College, Bucks, deceased, following default of payment by Joseph Adams, deceased.
Manor of Weston
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/A2A/records.aspx?cat=046-depr&cid=-1&Gsm=2008-06-18#-1
EDWARD BARNARD
Father: EDWARD BARNARD
MARY ANN BEADON
Father: EDWARD BEADON
Marriage: 22 JUL 1784 Saint James, Westminster, London
A possible death registration for Mary Ann nee Beadon in Hampshire, but equally it might not be her
Deaths Dec 1850
BARNARD Mary Anne Southampton 7 145
There is a slightly later PCC will for a Mary Anne Barnard which gives no place so may not be the same Mary Anne
Will of Mary Anne Barnard 22 December 1852 PROB 11/2162
Google Books
Admissions to the college of St. John the Evangelist in the University of ... by St. John's College (University of Cambridge), John Eyton Bickersteth Mayor, Robert Forsyth Scott - 1931
'Edward Barnard was the only child of Dr Edward Barnard, ... but held his Prebend in Hereford with Alverstoke until his death at Alverstoke, 23 October 1840 ...'
PCC will
Will of Reverend Edward Barnard, Rector, Clerk of Alverstoke , Hampshire 30 November 1840 PROB 11/1935
Eton College Archives
http://www.etoncollege.com/CollegeArchives.aspx
However after all that no son Edward mentioned at least graduating from Cambridge
'Alumni Cantabrigienses From 1752 to 1900: Volume 1
Barnard, Edward.Adm. Fell.-Com. at ST JOHN'S, Oct. 13, 1781. Of Bucks. S. and h. of Edward (1735), D.D., Provost of Eton. B. there Sept. 30, 1763. Matric. Michs. 1782. M.A. (Lambeth) 1803. Lieut. in the Chislehurst Troop of Yeomanry Cavalry, 1794; Major, 1796; retired, 1797. Ord. deacon (Bath and Wells) Apr. 25; priest, Sept. 25, 1803; P.C. of Harefield, Middlesex, 1803-7. R. of Everdon, Northants., 1807-8. V. of Bexley, Kent, 1808-25. Preb. of Hereford, 1809-40. Preb. of Wells, 1812-17. V. of Alverstoke, Hants., 1825-40. Married Mary Ann, dau. of Edward Beadon, R. of North Stonham, Hants., July 22, 1784. Died Oct. 23, 1840, at Alverstoke. Father of Charles T. (1808), Henry W. (1811), John (1814) and George W. (1823). (St John's Coll. Adm., IV.)'
'Barnard, George William.Adm. at KING'S, a scholar from Eton, Aug. 2, 1823. S. of Edward (1781), clerk. B. Feb. 2, 1804, at Harefield, Middlesex. Matric. Michs. 1823. [Degree not taken.] Fellow, 1826-7. Died 1827, at
Cambridge. Brother of John (1814), etc. (King's Coll. Adm. Reg.)'
You are going to have to obtain a copy of at least one of the PPC wills to see if you can prove a connection. These appear to be Edward's dates - Edward Barnard (1786-1861) was born 14th March, 1786, and died 13th December, 1861. ...
Regards
Valda
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Dear Valda,
This is amazing! I am thrilled to have all this because finally I can make some connections. Now I know more about the Rev. EB, son of the Eton EB, it all falls into place. I couldn't find anything helpful on him before.
It does seem that the agent general EB may be a son. But the Wills seem to be the way to go.
Plainly this branch of the Barnard family is not the one of John George B and his son James, but they may be related in the Eton EB generation. The son George William who died at Cambridge, is also a name that has cropped up. A George William B also emigrated to Tasmania but so far I have found no connection between him and JGB and James.
I did get some further info from the Stationer's Co. which you suggested earlier, but nothing on JGB's apprenticeship, though he was free in London. Maybe he did his apprenticeship elsewhere?
You have worked so hard on my behalf, I really appreciate it.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
Francesr
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Hullo,
I have another Barnard-related query please.
I have a Bible entry for Ann Jane Barnard b. 8 May 1807; died 24 Feb. 1809 "buried in the vault" of St Sepulchre (without Newgate) City of London.
I have been trying to access the church's web site without luck at: www.st-sepulchre.org.uk. Is there any way of finding out if the vault is still in situ, and if so, whether it has been transcribed?. I would like to know if there are other relatives buried in it. Or perhaps it has been moved? Is it possible to visit?
Thanks for your help.
francesr
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Hi
Certainly the churchyard has gone
http://www.burial.magic-nation.co.uk/bgnorthfaringdonwithout.htm
The vault may have been cleared. The church would obviously know.
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda,
Apologies for not thanking you earlier for this!
I only just found it!
Regards,
Francesr
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Could anyone tell me whether the Edward Barnard here is the same Edward Barnard as the one who was among the founders of the famous Houghton Angling Club? This Barnard died 13th December 1861, and I strongly suspect that it is the same person - I have just seen the surname Beadon mentioned here, and another founder of the Club was called Beadon.
If it is indeed the same Edward Barnard, I would like to find out as much about him as possible, and would be grateful for any information anyone may have. I am currently writing a book about Charles Dickens's Pickwick Papers, and the Houghton Angling Club was one of the inspirations for Pickwick. As I do not visit this website very often, I would prefer to be contacted by my email address: *
Many thanks
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Hi
Edward Barnard of Cannon Row Westminster and Belgrave Cottgae Lambeth died 31st December 1861. His will was probated 31st January 1862 at the Principal Registry.
Regards
Valda
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Dear Valda and Pickwick,
I am so sorry to be so late in responding to your posts, when I was thrilled to know someone else out there actually knew who Edward Barnard was! Thank you both for the new info.
Dear Pickwick, I hope you will respond to this and we can carry on via the 'personal column'. I do think an investigation of EB's will would be v. helpful, especially as I am not in England - I'm amazed he had time to go angling; he had such a busy life.
Dear Valda (and other readers), I thought you might like to know that I have finally worked out why James Barnard was not in the 1861 census. His wife and 4 children went to England mid-1860 and were there a year before he joined them, probably around Sept. 1861. They all went to the Great Exhibition of 1862 and then 'came home'.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
Francesr
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Many thanks for that posting. As I am new to this site, I did not know that posting email addresses was not allowed and that new members must make at least three posts before using the PM system. As this is my second post, I still cannot use it yet! I must therefore apologise for not replying sooner - as I didn't receive an email, I simply thought there was no response.
Anyway, please say a little more about the Edward Barnard you are talking about. If he is indeed the same as the person I am researching, then he is a significant figure in the evolution of Dickens's novel The Pickwick Papers. In my notes, taken from material published by the angling club, Edward Barnard died suddenly on 13th December 1861. If that is correct, does that sound like your Edward Barnard?
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I have just seen the post about his death date. It sounds like it could be the same person, with the "1" and "3" transposed in the date of death - an easy mistake to make
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regarding Edward Barnard, the Agent for the Crown Colonies.
Edward was the son of Edward Barnard, Rector of Alverstoke, 30 Sep 1763 - 23 Oct 1840 and Mary Ann Beadon, c 1764 - 12 Oct 1850. They married 22 Jul 1784 St James Westminster. His father was indeed the Edward Barnard who died in 1781. He was 1754 Headmaster of Eton, 1760 Canon of Windsor, Chaplain to King George III, 1765 Provost of Eton. http://www.archive.org/stream/memoirsofcelebra02jessiala/memoirsofcelebra02jessiala_djvu.txt
Mary Ann Beadon was the daughter of Mary Ann Watson and Edwards Beadon, Rector of North Stoneham, Hampshire, and also Chaplain to King George III in 1760. Mary Ann Watson was the daughter of Sir William Watson the scientist. 1715 - 1787.
Lots of information on the Beadon and Barnard families, so let me know exactly what you are interested in.
Cheers, Duncan
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Hi Duncan,
Great to hear someone else is on the Barnard trail. "Pickwick" and I have been exchanging info and they will continue with this.
My personal interest is in the London printer John George Barnard whose books appear 1798-1825; he was also in partnership with John Sultzer who became his brother-in-law, and later, a mysterious "Farley". His main working address was 57 Skinner Street, Snow-Hill after 1805, though he lived with his family in Mare Street, Hackney from 1811. I have been unable to find his origins, so if you have anyone in your files that sounds like him, maybe disguised as "John" only(?), I'd be most grateful to know more.
Thanks so much.
Francesr
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I would like to post some infomation from my research on here...a Descendancy Report..my own work..but cant because every time I try to 'paste' I get a Copyright' not box appear ..whicgh directs me to a Copyright statement but no means by which I can submit my iunfo unless I type it all out line by linee.
Annoying.
Frustrating.
Hump.
Earliest Bernard thus far, George Barnard of St Martins In The Fields, his Son George Rev of Harpenden...who is confused and merged in the records, with His son George B 1710 = 1760. This George 1710 was brother of Edward Born 1717 who Married Susanna Haggett ( daught of Nathaniel Haggett and Jane Lambert , Abt 1738 - 23 June 1764).( Hagget a Surrey and well documented Barbados family) Their son Edward Barnard B 30 Sep 1763 Married Mary Anne Beadon.
- Clif
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Dear Clif,
I would be most interested in anything you might have on the Rev. George as I have now got most that I needed on his brother Rev. Edward of Eton and his descendants. My main interest as you have gathered from the previous posts, is trying to track down John George Barnard, b. c. 1775 - he has circumstantial links to Leicester and possibly across to Huntingdonshire.
If we keep this contact for 3 times, we can then make a private post.
If you would like to make your research public I suggest you keep it v. simple - less typing - and paste in the relevant links.
Kind regards,
Francesr
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Hello Clif. I have info re the Barnard family and may have something useful. Not sure what links you are looking for or if you are still interested. I am completely new to Rootschat, so am hoping to press the right buttons to get this message out.
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Dear Anta,
As you will see from the previous posts these are the Barnards I am most interested in, though some 'left-of centre' ones may also be of use, she says hopefully. I would be interested in any info you might have particularly in England around the 1770's-on.
Thanks for your interest.
Kind regards,
Francesr
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Hello. Our family line starts with Geo Barnard/Bernard of St Giles in the Fields (d1693 Flanders), his son George Vicar of Luton (and Harpenden) b 1688, then Edward Provost of Eton b 1717 and so on. Edward had two brothers - George b 1715, d 1740 (Priest, no known children and no Will found): and Thomas b 1721 (two wives and several children, Barbados connections).
None of the trees relating to the above have a John George b 1775, and I'm fairly sure the family would have known - as he was quite a successful man? I wonder if he belongs to a well-connected line of Barnards stemming from Sir Thomas B c1400s. They were in Northants and possibly Huntingdon and many went to the USA. I believe one of the Lord Mayors of London was that family.
If you can find Coats of Arms it is useful. The Sir Thomas line have a bear on their arms. Our line had 3 scallop shells. My inf comes from old family records, but of course it may have errors. I would be pleased to supply any other data - and keep in touch!
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Dear Anta,
Thanks for this. As far as I can work out JGB isn't related to the Sir Thomas etc you mention, as the line died out eventually. It is useful for me to know that George b.1715 had no children, so I am wondering what children his brother Thomas had? Allowing for the time period, JGB would have been a grandson.
It might be possible that JGB added the "G" to distinguish himself from other John Barnards who were around at the time??? He may have married around the mid-1790's? I haven't found any Barbados connections but as I have nothing on JGB's parents or siblings, after years of searching, anything is possible!
I have also researched the Norwich Barnards but he doesn't seem to belong there either. My feeling is his connections are in those counties immediately north of London - Shropshire across to Norfolk.
By the way I have extensive information on Edward Barnard of Eton's grandson also Edward. If you would like to continue on as a private post I can send some of it?
Thanks again,
Kind regards,
Francesr
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Hello Francesr. Yes good idea to do a private post.I think I've worked out how to do it and hopefully this post will count as No3, so I will be allowed. Then I can send you Thomas's children (not a lot of help I think). Also will ask you what you have on Edward B b 1786 - I already have various articles etc in the family record.
My area of interest is mainly pre-1693, where there are a number of intriguing Barnards who might be relevant but I can't find the links. It sounds as if you have the same problem.
Hope to hear from you
Anta
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Hullo Anta,
I shall look forward to your private post. Thanks for following this up.
Kind regards,
Francesr