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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: jmp on Friday 24 April 09 00:09 BST (UK)
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Ages ago I was given information by a contact that a George Waters married an Elizabeth Nash at St Brides Fleet Street 17 Jul 1810. A couple of people have very kindly confirmed that there is a marriage in St Brides listed on Pallots ( no date save 1810) and IGI.
However I was also told that the entry on the PRs for the marriage said that Elizabeth was born in Monken Hadley and her parents were Thomas Nash and Susannah nee Pickton. This would tie in with the children of George and Elizabeth who were subsequently born in Monken Hadley, but having said that Elizabeth Nash is not an uncommon name and I wonder if anyone with access to the PRs for St Brides can just confirm the additional details I have been given. I have never come across a PR for a marraige with both parents being named so wonder if this is just conjecture ???
Many thanks
Jackie ;)
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Hi Jackie
Pallots marriage index, indexes the parish of residence from the marriage registry (3 weeks prior to the marriage constitutes residency) if it differs from the parish the couple married in. There is nothing in the index to indicate a different parish for either of these two people. English parish registers do not state place of births just residency.
English parish registers before civil registration in 1837 do not give information about parents (and then only father's information) though of course the witnesses could be Elizabeth's parents (though there relationship wouldn't be stated).
This is the sort of information given in a marriage register in 1810.
http://www.british-genealogy.com/resources/registers/7marpre1837.htm
There is no indication in the Pallots index that the marriage was by licence or that Elizabeth was under age and would need permission to marry. Even so permission would be from her father - there would be no reason to name her mother.
Does Elizabeth Waters age at death correspond to the baptism of Elizabeth Nash? Do any of the full names of the children include the name Nash or any other surname?
The registers of St Bride's Fleet Street are held at the Guildhall library.
Regards
Valda
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Thanks for that Valda, yes that was what I was a bit concerned about - all the "extra information" as I have never seen it in other PRs of the period but just wondered if St Brides might have something additional
The details do to some extent add up. Elizabeth says on the Censuses that she is born in Enfield which is not far from Monken Hadley in c1791. There is an extracted entry for a baptism in Monken Hadley for an Elizabeth Nash in 30 Jul 1791 born 7 Jul 1791 to parents Thomas Nash and Susannah. But it would mean that she married at 19. But there are no Nash surnames within the childrens names and neither do the names Thomas or Susannah appear. There are at least 9 children of which I am aware with the first child Henry being born in Monken Hadley some 5 months after this marriage ( Dec 1810)
Elizabeth dies 1877 aged 86 which again adds up.
It just seems strange that they should marry outside a parish where Elizabeth seems to have strong connections and as George is a gardener from Wiltshire it isnt his parish either by the looks of things
Oh well a bit of a mystery ???
Thanks
Jackie :D
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Elizabeth was very likely working as a servant in London and George had moved to London for work. After her marriage Elizabeth moved back to the area where she was born and had family, George finding work where he could. Enfield isn't Monken Hadley. They are about 6 miles apart. Elizabeth consistently gives Enfield on the censuses as her place of birth but that is the place given for her daughters who appear with her on the 1861 and 1871 censuses and their baptisms appear in the Monken Hadley register.
If Elizabeth married at 19 then she married under age. Officially if she stated she married under age then she would need permission to marry. Where you usually find who gave such permission, is in the banns book if that has survived, but it is just possible it was annotated by the side of the marriage entry so it is worth checking in both the marriage register and the banns book if it exists.
Regards
Valda
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Thank you for that Valda I will do, although I do have a marriage of a 19 year old on another part of my line where there was no licence and no annotation in the marriage and banns book that she had permission to marry under age so they did get away with it ;)
Jackie
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Yes Jackie
It is largely hit and miss. It helps if the couple marry where they are known.
Regards
Valda
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Looked this up for you today.
St Bride, Fleet Street.
George WATERS otp batchelor married Elizabeth NASH otp spinster 17 Jul 1810 by banns
both signed their names
witnesses: G JEGLICK?? & Frances KIGHTMAN?
Let me know if you want a copy of the entry.
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Thank you very much Bearkat for that, you are most kind. I will send you a pm
Many thanks again
Jackie :D
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I am working on the same family, and have come up against the same problem. The St Brides marriage is perplexing. The witness names are useless, because if you examine the wider entries for the day it is obvious they were 'witnesses of convenience', servicing the requirement to several other couples in sucession. I'm fairly convinced this was a marriage without parental blessing, deliberately conducted away from the brides home parish of Monken Hadley.
Family roots and tradition frequently result in baptism, marriage and burial taking place at the 'old family church' (if within reasonable distance), regardless of where the child may have been born. I see this on many many occasions. The Nash family were a fairly old Hadley family, and it is quite feasible that Thomas and Susannah moved to Enfield where Elizabeth was born. At the time of her christening there were still several other Nash family members living in Hadley.
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Hello Wornpick, nice to hear from you ;)
Can I ask where your line fits in please. Mine is through George and Elizabeths daughter Lydia Louisa who then goes on to have a number of illegitimate children in Lowestoft. Would love to know your connection
Cheers
Jackie ;)
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Hi Jackie - we have actually been in touch before, particularly regarding Lydia Louisa and the 'Lowestoft years'. I think it was you that sent me the death records.
I am decended from George 'the younger', one of the boys born at Downe in Kent - my great great grandfather. The one who went to Paris. Have actually developed the detail of my tree for him quite extensively over on Ancestry.co.uk.
Will invite you to 'play' with the Ancestry tree.
Regards - Andy Waters
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Sorry Andy, yes of course, I didn't recognise your name on Rootschat ;D ;D
Glad to hear your Ancestry Tree is coming along well
You didnt get any further back with the Waters side in Wilstshire did you by any chance?
Jackie :D
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Re: Wiltshire - not really - still puzzling over the George and Mary Ann marriage. But am leaning more (on instinct) towards Mary Ann Dixon. In regard to George and Elizabeth in Middlesex and Kent: I have pretty much established an outline story of events. George was not originally a gardener, but a labourer. The Monken Hadley/Enfield period centred on Enfield Chase and the common fields. All the MH baptisms of the first children state Enfield as the abode. Around 1819 George was given the position of steward or bailiff at Down Hall, Downe, Kent. His employer was Sir John Johnson, a retired East India Company Officer. The second batch of children were born there, as you know. In 1836 Johnson prepared to sell Down Hall, before emigrating to Canada the following year. He laid off staff, including George, who had no option but to return to Enfield with his family. I believe that George had rights of common there. However, by the time of the 1841 Census much of the commons was sold off for development, and George was once again jobless.
I dont know if you are aware of 'Paris' George's book, published in 1864? 'Indian Gleanings and thoughts of the Past'. This has frequently been wrongly attributed to another George Waters who was an army surgeon, but it is definately my gt gt grandfather. (Even got his signature on the front, beneath a photographic portrait!) In his book, George makes several references to his family, and to Enfield Chase and Downe. He refers to his older brother Charles, and to his favorite sister Matilda ('Tilley') who died aged eighteen. Its an awesome read, and confirms many loose ends in my own research into his life. The book is available for free download on Google Books.
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Thank you Andy for that information. It certainly explains the travelling around that George did. I will definitely look up that book ;D
Jackie ;)
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Hi
I too am having problems. I have banns read at St Brides Fleet St London City in 1875 between Andrew Young & Elizabeth Young (cousins?)
Also have their daughter's birth certificate which names Mother as Elizabeth Young formerley Young, father Andrew so no indication that they had diferent names.
I cannot find this marriage on eiher Anc, Find my past or Family Search.
Would somebody do a look up please if they have any other sources. I am mystified by this.
Thanks Gaynori