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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Surrey => England => Surrey Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Jake Drummond on Wednesday 22 April 09 18:55 BST (UK)
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My grandads name was John Bain Gardner (incorrectly given as John Baine Gardner on his birth certificate) , born in Dysart, Fife in 1881 (father John Gardner and mother Agnes Bain) and he married Ethel Cooper in 1923 in Edinburgh.
We think he died during the war years, but perhaps later, and was survived by Ethel, his second wife who was born in Shere in Surrey, and who raised my mum in the area around Peaslake.
We think he lived latterly in or very near Leatherhead.
I can't seem to find the detailed search facility for English records, shown to be so easily used on Scotland's People, and would appreciate any pointers to help me find what I can. English death records do not show the parents names I'm told so where do I go next?
I've been trawling through the Ancestry records for hours every night , and have spotted one possible John Gardner for 1943, but without parents or birth details it could be that he's is or is not my grandad.
I also found a photograph of a gravestone online which points to that same John Gardner, and with his wife's name given, but she's given as Lilian, not Ethel.
'My' Ethel gives the name Ethel only all through the cencus and marriage records I have for her, though I don't have a birth record for her, and her age in each and her age at marriage in October 1921 gives a birth date of around 1877/78. Her sister Lilian was a couple of years junior to Ethel.
Ethel was said to be 3 years older than John and is said to have survived him according to an a older cousin of mine. She worked in service according to my late Mum, somewhere around Guilford and had a sister Dolly. Dolly had one child; Cliff? Atholl?
Dolly was crippled with arthritis, like her and Ethel's mum. This ties in with information from other (distant)Cooper/Ladd relations and a contact in Shere.
In 1891 Ethel Cooper was a 14 year old scullery maid to Herbert Edlmann of Hound House in Shere, Surrey (census) and her parent's listing on the census return gives a daughter called Lilian aged 14 at home in Peaslake. Her age might be two years out there, but it is the right Ethel according to family memories containing the name Eldemann or Eldman, but she gives Shere as place of birth.
Lilian is at home with her parents at this time.
By 1901 Ethel was House Parlour Maid in Morden, at "Chalgrove" 3, Central Road, Morden, home of Emma H. Campbell, (Census).
Her place of birth again ties in with Shere, and her given name is Ethel Cooper, no other initials. I have not traced her sister Lilian at this date.
In 1921 Ethel married to JBG in Edinburgh and strangely gave her usual residence as 23 The Square, Penicuik, the home as it turns out of a James Bain, who could have been JBG's uncle, though there's no record of him having one such named.
They married after my grandmother died in childbirth, and Ethel took my then 5 year old mum under her care and moved back to Peaslake or thereabouts and raised her as her own.
The following, according to family stories from late mum, is how things progressed;
Ethel had been in service and had nursing training and had helped nurse my grandad back to health after one of his spells or recuperation from his injuries in France during WW1, in a house given over for the purpose for the duration of the war. Where this was is unclear. (Oh to have paid more attention when I was wee!!)
Upon demobilisation he was offered work by the house owner but returned home to Scotland and his family, but his wife Jane Dick died in early 1920 during childbirth, and that and the fact that his injuries made work in the mines very difficult, forced him to take up the offer and he moved with my mum to Surrey.
Mum lived and worked there until she was a teenager and returned home to Scotland for holidays with the family, meeting my dad and eventually marrying and staying here.
I traced the photograph of the grave in Putney Vale Cemetery and the image was kindly sent by charles.saleATgravesphotos.com and this shows the following;
"John Gardner, died 9th Sept. 1943 aged 63 and Lilian Gardner, died 1st April 1956, aged 79"
I've tried searching to see if John's war service records survived, which might have given me a pointer to where he recuperated and where he lived while getting his war pension ect., but thus far there's nothing to be found at all, despite having his service number and most of the other medals record details.
The information I have for sisters Ethel and Lilian show them to be who I thought they were, and Ethel and John Gardner did marry as evidenced by the marriage lines I have, which gave me her parental details.
The mystery is where and when they died, and I'm at my wits end to find the missing bits of the jigsaw.
We will be travelling down to the area during August to search for the graves of both John and Ethel, and will take a wee bit of Fife down to leave there, but where to start looking.........................?
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I presume you are searching for the graves of John Bain Gardner and Ethel Gardner nee Cooper.
I note you have a photograph of a grave of a John Gardner and Lilian Gardner which is in Putney Vale Cemetery, about 25 miles down the A3 to Guildford, so I wonder if John and Ethel moved nearer to Putney before John died. The age of the John Gardner on the grave does tie in with the date of birth of your grandfather, also there is a death registered of a John Gardner age 63 in the Apr-Jun quarter of 1943, Brentford 3a 232. Brentford is only about 7 miles from Putney Vale Cemetery.
Looking on FreeBMD, it appears that Ethel Cooper's birth was registered in Guildford in December 1874, whilst Lilian's was registered in March 1877 in Guildford. Guildford would cover Shere, which even today is only a small village. Strangely the age of Ethel on the gravestone although it ties in with her age at marriage in October 1921, doesn't tie in with the age on the gravestone. The age on the gravestone is correct for Lilian and also ties in with the age "Ethel" gave at her marriage. That could be, of course, because if John believed her to be only 3 years older than him, she didn't want him to know she was actually 6 years older.
Strangely, there is a death of a Lilian Cooper in Guildford in March quarter of 1898 age 24. This ties in with Lilian's birth date and would account for the fact that you couldn't find her on the 1901 census.
The only death listed for Apr-Jun quarter 1956 is of a Lilian Gardner aged 79, reference Ealing 5e 126, which is only about 8 miles from Putney Vale Cemetery. My guess is that Ethel Gardner and Lilian Gardner were the same person and you have already found the grave you are searching for. In your shoes, I would get Lilian (Ethel) Gardner's death certificate and see who the informant was. It could be that if it was just a neighbour or someone, they found Lilian's birth certificate in Ethel possesions and just mixed the two up.
English death records only show where a person died, their age at the time, the cause of death and the name and address of the informant, so if you don't know the parents of an adult, you won't find out from the death records. Also they are not available to view on line, so the only way of seeing what the record shows is to pay out £7 and buy the certificate.
Lizzie
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Thanks for the comprehensive reply Lizzie; all ideas are very welcome, and your guess that Ethel was covering up her real age sounds very possible.
Lilian and Ether were indeed sisters, as shown on the census returns I have showing both in the family home in 1881, along with their siblings and mum and dad.
An older cousin remembers meeting John's widow on visits to ''the Guilford area'', and knew her as Ethel, so it's unlikely that Ethel took Lilian's 'identity'. (a strange idea but when you've been around all the coincidences and intrigues of family tree research even that idea is not unlikely!)
You note that a Lilian Cooper died in 1898 so that will account for her being 'missing' for the 1901 census. Thanks for that.
Again I think your idea that Ethel was 'mis-informed' at the time of her death could be possible. This though would have been noticed if my mother was able to travel down to attend the funeral, assuming someone had been in touch.
I'll ask again of my older siblings if they are aware of mum being away at the time, but from what I've gleaned so far I don't think there was any recollection of that.
I would have been 5 years old at the time, my brother would have been 15 so he might have noticed, and my eldest sibling, a sister, would have been 18 so she would have been babysitting me I think, so she's most likely to recall any trips away by mum.
I think I need to get Lilian's death certificate as you suggest, and that of the John Gardner in 1943 and see what facts I can turn up from that.
I have another possible John Gardner death;
John B Gardner-aged 62 died/registered jan-feb-march-qrtr-1943 Surrey Mid.E.-Vol-2a-Page-236, which I'll try if the 'Brentford 3a 232' one fails to turn out correctly.
So, it looks as if I need to book a caravan site in the area for my August search, and I think there's a good Caravan Club site within easy reach of all the likely locations.
I'm all ears, and willing to try anything and will post what I find as I go along.
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I don't think Ethel took Lilian's identity, just her age! If she was called Ethel on her marriage certificate that will be what her husband knew her as, unless she told him she wanted to be called Lilian for some reason, but that's not likely if your mum and older siblings knew her as Ethel.
What you'll need to find out is who registered the death of the lady and paid for the name to be put on the gravestone.
By the way you first said that John Bain Gardner married Ethel Cooper in Edinburgh in 1923, then you later said her age at her marriage in 1921 gives her date of birth around 1877/78 - which as we summize from the birth record I gave you, is wrong by 3/4 years.
I look forward to hearing how your mystery turns out.
Lizzie
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Hi Jake Drummond!
This is a strange first post but I encountered your thread whilst googling Hound House Road!
I read in your other posts that you were making the long journey down south a couple of years ago - did you solve your mystery about Ethel?
I live in Peaslake and intrigued by your post and having nothing better to do on a Bank Holiday evening! cycled up to the graveyard at Peaslake and had a walk round. There is a grave Winifrid Cooper, died 1976 age 72 but more importantly I met a Cooper descendant. Ethel Cooper was his aunt (he is 75) and related to Winifred. He was sure Ethel was buried there but it was quite late to go looking.
Peaslake is a very small village and even today is occupied by many members of long established Peaslake families so the Coopers would not be forgotten.
Hope this is helpful.
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Hi Cintara,
Well, this is indeed a surprise, and a very welcome bit of 'new' news!
Where to start?
The planned trip did not unfortunately happen as I took a unwell and we cancelled our plans, and truth be told, as I had very little to go on in any case I decided that as I seemed to be approaching a 'dead end' I'd give it time to see what more I could find.
What I have on Ethel now is as in my first post, but I've traced Ethel's death certificate and have this added to my tree on Genes Reunited;
Death certificate shows that Ethel died on the second of March, 1956 at 8 St James, Hale Road, Farnham, probably a rest home. She was 81 years old, and given as 'Widow of John Gardner, Coal Miner', and died from a Coronary Atheroma, Certified by F Bedo Hobbs MD, informant given as H. Cooper, Brother, of 3 East View, Peaslake.
I'm still at a loss to find John Gardner's death details, despite checking with the office in Leatherhead, who have more or less said that if I knew where and when he'd died they could tell me where and when he'd died! And all searches cost around£7 a time for likely 'J. Gardner' entries, with no more than an initial to give a clue to his first name.
I wonder if you managed to get hold of Ethel's nephew's name and address? I have two photographs of Ethel which I can copy and post to him should he wish.
I have my tree on GenesReunited and if you have access to GR I'd happily give you access to view the tree where you would be able to see the other Cooper entries I have.
I can be contacted via this site who can, I think, pass on my email address and we can make contact with details if you would be so kind.
You are the only contact I have with any living member of the Cooper family and I really appreciate your posting, and your help.
Thank you so much.
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Well as a matter of fact I did get his phone number! He is such an interesting chap having lived here all his life.
I'm not able to send PMs until my post count goes up a bit but in the meantime I will give the chap a ring to get some more information. You posted a photo of Ethel on another thread so I could print that out for him (may not be tomorrow as back at work and may be over run).
I don't know of Firs Cottage, Peaslake where you mentioned Ethel was born, but most of the houses here are very old so highly unlikely it has been demolised, maybe renamed. 3 East View is still around as I cycled past it on my way back from the Church!
Will be in touch again as soon as I have found out further info.
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I wonder Cintara if you managed to make contact with Ethel Cooper Gardner's nephew? I've no leads to follow except yours, and have been looking at all avenues without success.
Please, if you can, get in touch.
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Please Cintara, if you managed to make contact with Ethel Cooper Gardner's nephew could you let me know, or perhaps pass on the telephone number he gave you?
I've no leads to follow except yours, and have been looking at all avenues without success and tihere may not be nuch more time.
Please, if you can help me in any way, get in touch.
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Despite many more hours of searching I'm no nearer to finding the graves of either John Bain Gardner or his second wife Ethel (nee Cooper). I did have one lead (whether genuine or not I cannot say) but that seems to have fizzled out.
Attempts to find documentation for John Gardner ran out when my application was rejected as I didn't know a place of death, and guessing that it was in or around Shere/Pealske/Leatherhead was not enough.
Telephone calls to Cooper's in the BT Residential phone book for a thirty mile radisus of Shere failed to find anyone who knew of Ethel, or her marriage to John Gardner.
We're heading for the area on the 18th of the month (August) and have hopes that simply walking around every graveyard in the area will result in success. We'll start at Peaslake in the hope that Cintara's posts were genuine.
Can anyone suggest a shortcut to finding the graves? I'll happily pay for information if that's what is required; the trip from here in Scotland and accommodation will amount to a substantial sum anyway.
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Hi Jake
I'm sorry to see that your efforts have not given you the results you hoped for.
If you have still not got this death certificate
Mar 1943
GARDNER John B, aged 62, Surrey Mid E. 2a 236
might I suggest you try again.
Re-reading your earlier posts, I think you may not have made a correct application to the General Register Office at www.gro.gov.uk
As you make an online application, their system asks you
Is the GRO Index Reference Number known? Yes or no
Using the information above, you say yes and then proceed to enter the details from the death index. You will not be asked for an actual date or place of death.
As a way though of ensuring this is your John Bain Gardner's certificate, enter the middle name in full rather than just the initial B as given in the index. If the middle name is not Bain, they will reject your application and give you a refund. If it is your man, you will get the cert in 5-7 working days.
The headstone you have seen at Putney Vale might be that of John & Lilian Gardner who were living at 23 Gladwyn Road, Putney from 1921-1939. They are in the electoral registers before the war but I can't easily find Lilian on her own after.
To further satisfy your curiosity, you could ring Wandsworth council who manage Putney Vale and make further enquiries about the John & Lilian who are buried there. They seem to make a charge for look-ups but you might get away with a free search as you have the exact dates of death. You could ask if they are the John & Lilian who were residing at Gladwyn Road, this should rule them in or out for you.
http://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/info/200032/deaths_funerals_and_cremations/86/cemeteries_and_crematorium/2
If you are unsure of what I've written here send me a pm.
Hope this helps.
Dawn
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Dawn, you're an angel! I did as you suggested and I've managed to order a certificate, so fingers crossed it's the one I need and is here before we head south.
I can't understand why the staff at the GRO could not explain, as you did, the way to source the certificate!
I'll post my results when we get the certificate and if/when we find what I'm looking for; 'Lost' graves in or around Peaslake!
Many, many thanks.
Jake
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Hi Jake
It was a slow morning at home today so I've left a message with the churchwarden at St Marks Peaslake about 1943 burials. She hasn't rung back yet, she may be out at work, if she does I'll ask some questions. The church burial register may not be full yet, (the church was consecrated 1889ish) because it hasn't been deposited at the Surrey History Centre.
I did phone bereavement services at Guildford but his name does not show up on their computer records which infers he wasn't buried in a municipal cemetery there.
If he isn't at Peaslake, or in Guidlford, is there any chance he went home to Scotland for burial, a slim chance I know because of the war and expense.
Dawn
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Hi Dawn,
Your help here is invaluable! It's really good of you to do all the calling around from me; I didn't have contact details for St Marks nor had I thought of doing that.
I did try a message to the Shere Museum Collection and to the Shere, Gomshall and Peaslake Local History Society a year ago (at least) but go no reply from either.
Likewise a request for assistance from the Surrey County Council's offices whose webpages suggest that they have resources including a book on Peaslake Cemetery's monumental inscriptions was not replied to.
I even tried the local Guardian online and found nothing.
I think the John and Lilian Gardner grave is not 'mine' I suspect as there's no evidence really to point to that.
The chances of John being brought home to Wemyss is very slim for the reasons you mention, and I think that where Ethel is he will be also.
A much older cousin thought that Leatherhead might be where he is buried, but her memory is none too good, and she then wondered if that was simply where the train they had been on had stopped on the way down one time.
What I have for Ethel is as follows;
Ethel Cooper's birth was registered in Guildford in December 1874, daughter of Thomas Cooper and Eliza Ladd.
She married John (after the death of his first wife) at St Giles Edinburgh 17/10/1921. John was given as aged 40, usual residence at Wemyss Terrace, Ethel was given as aged 43, her usual residence given as 23 The Square, Penicuik, which was the home of a Bain family member, as yet I've found no real link to John BAIN Gardner, but he will be related.
Ethel was said to be "3 years older than John" and is said to have survived him. (Info from my cousin Janet Gardner) She worked in service (from my Mum) somewhere around Guilford and "had a sister Dolly. Dolly had one child; Cliff? Atholl? Dolly was crippled with arthritis, like her mum." (from Janet Gardner)
1891 Census shows Ethel Cooper was scullery maid to Herbert Edlmann of Hound House, Surrey
1901 Ethel was House Parlour Maid in Morden, at "Chalgrove" 3, Central Road, Morden, home of Emma H. Campbell.
1911 census........ as above
1921 Ethel was married to JBG in Edinburgh, usual residence given as 23 The Square, Penicuik. John was given as aged 40, usual residence at Wemyss Terrace, Ethel was given as aged 43.
The marriage witness was Isabella Robertson Bain, married to James Bain Paper Mill Worker, lived at North Cottage, West Street, Penicuik.
(I think that this James Bain was John Bain Gardner's uncle. My grandfather was given as John Gardner Bain on his birth certificate in 1881, born to Agnes Bain and listed as illegitimate. Seven years later Agnes married John Gardner........ cart before horse!)
1956 Death certificate shows that Ethel died in 1956 at 8 St James, Hale Road, Farnham, probably a rest home. She was 81 years old, and given as Widow of John Gardner, Coal Miner, and she died from a Coronary Atheroma, Certified by F Bedo Hobbs MD, informant given as H. Cooper, Brother, of 3 East View, Peaslake.
Fingers crossed that the death certificate is the right one and that it shows place of death, which might just be enough to pinpoint a town or village.
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Jake, Dawn,
From the example of my G. Aunt who died Feb 1940 in Herts. and her cremated remains were buried in her daughter's grave in the Isle of Wight. At that time travel to the Island was by all accounts very difficult and great trouble was taken, clearly. I suggest don't discount the possibility of a crematorium and your chap's ashes going North.
Interesting thread BTW.
Alan
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Thanks Alan for your post.
I wondered at one point if grandad John Bain Gardner may have been a victim of a bombing raid, but then I think that would have been mentioned by someone in the family. Likewise I think that had he been here in Scotland my mother would have visited his grave, either at Dysart where he was born, or at East Wemyss where his first wife is buried.
I do recall as a child often walking through the local cemetery with my mother, and we always took the same route to the corner where her mum (JBG's first wife) is buried.
Mum's best memories always centered around her youth in the Peaslake and Shere area, with trips to Esher and Wimbledon Common, which is on 5 miles or so from 'Chalgrove' in Morden where Ethel's last known place of employ was prior to her marriage to JBG.
Maybe this was where they all were post 1921, Ethel, JBG and my mum all living there?
Another thought springs to mind; why would Ethel's death certificate giver her as widow to JBG "Coal Miner", when he was long away from the pits up here...... unless he was still mining in that area? Were there coal mines nearby?
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Hi
The church warden phoned and I gave her the 1943 information to check out.
The churchyard at Peaslake is detached from the church, and appears to be controlled by the pcc not the diocese which is why the deposited records don't appear in the Surrey parish list prepared by the History centre.
The warden hasn't phoned back yet, but she has copies of the burial register in the church office which is visiting tomorrow. She suggested that it wouldn't be too difficult to check out the burials as very few are buried per year. She said that she would check out for Ethel as well, but I didn't have her death date to hand so her search may not reveal Ethel unless there is a note in the register.
As to being a 'coal miner', that was the convention for occupations on death certs. My great grandfather is shown as a Funeral Director on his death cert, albeit retired for many years prior to his death. Nowadays, there is the addition of 'retired'. In those days men had a job and job title for life.
As soon as I get a reply, I'll let you know.
Dawn
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Good evening Dawn,
I think that I'm right in making a few arrangements and heading Peaslake way on the 18th of the month, even given that I've no other positive pointers yet. A talk with a ten year older brother of mine brought up the same place names; Peaslake, Morden, Shere etc.
We'll find a B&B nearby I should think. I did try booking at the hotel in Peaslake but they seem confused about room charges!
Lets hope the Church Warden can either confirm or discount Peaslake cemetery as the location of one or both of the Gardners. I thank you sincerely for putting your local knowledge to use and will treat you to lunch when we're down!
JBG would be buried somewhere in 1943 and I think his death certificate will be the guide to the location and Ethel would likely go beside him.
If it is Leatherhead as cousin Janet thought (or not!) then maybe they sourced a plot there, in which case the bereavement services there might have information.
BUT, if she had family in Shere/Peaslake cemetery she may have gone to a family plot.
Lots of options.............
Ethel's brother ("H. Cooper, Brother, of 3 East View, Peaslake") was informant on her death certificate and I see that there are some Coopers in and around the area, though attempts to get them on the telephone have proved fruitless thus far. I'll keep trying as one may be the relative (nephew) Cintara mentioned in her/his posts, and may have some information.
I can't find the birth certificate copy for Ethel in 1874........too many bits of paper!
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Hi
The records for St Marks Peaslake start in 1889, before that I think the family would have used the church at Shere.
Thanks for the offer of lunch, but I shall politely decline as I do not live in the area :-*
I'll be in touch soon I hope.
Dawn
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Thank you!
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Hi
Some good news!
Ethel Gardner aged 81 of East View ( a row of cottages) was buried at Peaslake 7th March 1956. No plot number is shown but they do have a plan of the churchyard.
No sign though of John :-\
Albert, William & Mary Gardner all of the Old Post Office were buried 1937, 1945 and 1952
and finally
Rose Hannah Gardner of 6 Woodhouse Lane was buried in 1941
As you're visiting in a couple of weeks, I will send via pm the church wardens name and phone number and you can liaise directly with her.
She has other lists of 'parish names', maybe there is something there, also I gave her Ethel's maiden name - Cooper- and she will look for that.
Happy hunting.
Dawn
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Fabulous news about Ethel's grave location, tempered a little with no sign of JBG, and I'm indebted to you for finding this for me.
We should be in the area around Monday 19th and will have three days there so I think that'll be ample time to find what I need, and I'll certainly be anxious to meet up with the Church Warden.
The 1943 death certificate, ordered and en route soon, will hopefully show John's last address, and I can take it from there to seek his final resting place if he proves not to be at Peaslake with Ethel.
These other Gardner names are worthy of a bit of research, though I can't see that they are a 'second family' for JBG............though after all this time I'm not discounting it!!! Maybe a subscription to Ancestry will be required after all to find THEIR parents names.
You're well named Dawn; you brought light where there was but darkness!
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I'm pleased to have been of some help.
Before you take out a sub, check your local library to see if the subscribe to Ancestry Library Edition. Might save you a few pennies if they do.
Have a good trip, let us know how it goes.
Dawn
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A very important piece of paper arrived today; Grandad John Bain Gardner's death certificate!
He died aged 62 years on February fifth at Nelson Hospital, Merton, and lived at 1 Balfour Road, Wimbledon. He is given as a Roof Watcher at an aircraft factory, and Ethel was present at his death. Seems his death was put down to Respiratory and Cardiac Failure.
A few 'phone call and an email I'm awaiting a reply to may be leading me to St Mary the Virgin at Merton, and with luck the Church Officers may have a register of burials.
I'll look around for where he may have been employed as I should think aircraft factories will be listed.
Maybe Electoral Rolls exists too so that might point to where he and Ethel were living during the lost years..........'more questions than answers' I know, but I'll have reached the end of my quest soon I hope.
I thank everyone who has helped me get this far............
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'Deceased Online' for Surrey gave me this, maybe the final clue;
Entry # 26427... John Bain Gardner (aged) 62, Nelson Hospital, (buried on) 10th February 1943 (in) Common (Grave #) VC252 blank column blank column (in which Parish) 1 Balfour Rd Wimbledon.
Looks as if I might not find a headstone after all, if I'm reading the 'Common Ground' bit correctly, but at least I've found where he'll be.
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Hi Jake
Good find at Deceased Online as his middle name doesn't show when doing a search.
You're most probably correct in your assumption there may not be a headstone, but you should still be able to visit and pay your respects.
The only aircraft factory I'm aware of is this but I'm no expert in this area
http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/Services/LeisureCulture/LocalHistory/Archives.htm
No electoral registers were compiled during the war but Meron Local studies might be able to help outside of these dates
http://arena.yourlondonlibrary.net/web/merton/heritage
Dawn
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Many thanks for those links Dawn, which I'll pursue when we get there. Let's hope there's some headstone to be seen.
I should think I'll find more information from the electoral rolls which might show where they were living, and working, at the time.
As before, I'll post an update.