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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: Mousey on Tuesday 21 April 09 22:38 BST (UK)
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Am trying to sort out my husbands Hunter family and have reached a block. I have got as far as Moses Hunter born c.1824 in (Gorbals/Govan) Glasgow. He married Christina Sutherland in 14 Sep 1848 Govan. On the 1851 census he was living at 22 Warwick Street with his wife and his occupation is given as Grain Merchant.
I cannot find him on the 1841 census and I cannot establish who his parents were.
Any and all help would be appreciated.
Thanks.
Marie
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When did he die?
What were the names of his children?
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His children were
William Sutherland Hunter born c1850
John England Hunter born c1856
Moses Alfred Hunter b 4 Oct 1857 Govan
George Frederick Hunter born c1860
Jeannie Noble Hunter born c1866
I don't know when or where he died but he was still living 60 Maxwell Drive at the time of his death.
Marie
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Hi marie
A simple search for Moses Hunter b 1824 Lanarkshire - immediately throws up top of the list: he and Christina in all the Census 1851 to 1901. So - the simplest way to establish his parents would be to download his death certificate from Scotlands People.
For elimination purposes: After those 1851>1901 Census entries is an 1841which lists a Moses HUNTER 14, in household with Andrew THOMSON 30, Manfacturer.and Margaret Hunter THOMSON 20.
FreeCEN, however, lists this one as Moses Hunter THOMSON
http://freecen.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl
138 Portland Street - Gorbals, Lanarkshire
Parish 644/2, Folio 30, pg 19 ED 30
Andrew THOMSON 30, Manufacturer
Margaret Hunter THOMSON 20
Moses Hunter THOMSON 14
Jane JOHNSTON 15, F. S.
ALL Born lanarkshire
By all accounts found, this Moses HUNTER/THOMSON in 1841 is the future Timber Merchant/Employer in the 1861/1871 b abt 1827,Glasgow. died 1872, with a wife named Maria McNAB (married 1859 in Govan).
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/s/m/i/Loraine-A-Smith/tree1.html
The above linked tree also reports this Moses (1827-1879) was the son of Moses HUNTER (1793-1872) and Margaret ARNIEL (and after Margaret ARNIEL died Moses Snr remarried to the much younger Jane Alexander THOMSON. It also reports that Margaret THOMSON nee HUNTER (wife of Andrew as per 1841) was this Moses' b 1827's sister.
The above link also says, the parents of Moses HUNTER snr were: Archibald HUNTER and Margaret JAMIESON.
IGI has their issue as: Robert 1789 Glasgow; William 1791 Glasgow; Moses 1793 Glasgow; Archibald 1797 Beith Ayr,
Also noting, Moses Snr and his 2nd wife Jane were in parish of Dunoon and Kilmun Argyll in 1841.
Your Moses and the 1841 Moses then, may be cousins - but are not the same man.
Found the following in the Edinburgh Gazette
http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/
Dated 29 Oct 1878
The copartnery carried on by the Subscribers, the Sole Partners, as Grain and Flour merchants in Glasgow, under the firm of JOHN HUNTER and Son was dissolved of Mutual Consent, on 31st May 1877 by the retirement of the subscriber, John England HUNTER........" (signed): J. E. HUNTER; MOSES HUNTER, Glasgow 26 October 1878
This gazette entry looks like ??? it refers to the father of your Moses - ie: John England HUNTER - whose namesake would be your Moses son of same name b 1855.....?
Your Moses' son John England b 1855 was still alive & well in 1895, producing children with his wife Eliza MARTIN.
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/SCT-ARGYLL/2004-05/1085717517
In 1891, he and his wife were in Lochgoilhead, Argyll.
Scotland's People have 2 records in Will section relating to:
John England HUNTER, former merchant of Glasgow, later resident of Lettershaws, Helensburgh died 29 Sep 1888 at Helensburgh, , testate.
Cheers
AMBLY
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Hi marie
A further search of SP, for the death of John England HUNTER 1888 - shows his age at death is indexed as 69 years. So born abt 1819. So he can't be your Moses' father - since your Moses was born only abt 1824.
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/
So John England HUNTER abt 1819 could be a brother of your Moses - same trade - and their father was also Moses John ....same trade - ie Grain merchants.
I can see John England HUNTER b abt 1819 in Census - will type it up.
Cheers
AMBLY
Edit: Just figured it out - Th co-partners in the firm of John HUNTER & Son, must be brothers named John England and (your) Moses HUNTER - then brother John E retired 1878. So their father must be named "John"?
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The OPR's have this BAPTISM record
24/05/1823 HUNTER MOSES son of JOHN HUNTER and MARY ENGLAND at Glasgow GLASGOW CITY/LANARK
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1841:Cessnoch Cottage - Govan, Glasgow, Lanarkshire
John HUNTER 40, Mechant - Y
Eliz HUNTER 40 - N
John HUNTER 20 , Merchant, - Y
George HUNTER 20, Baker - Y
Charles HUNTER 10, - Y
Elizabeth HUNTER 5, - Y
Ann CHAPMAN 45 - N
Martha CHAPMAN 10 - N
Martha RICHMOND 5 - Y
Jean SHELINE 20, F.S. - Y
Christina CHAPMAN 15, F.S. - N
1851: Cessnock Cottage - Govan, Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Head: John HUNTER 53, Grain Merchant, b Glasgow
Wife: Elizabeth HUNTER 50, b Port Glasgow, Renfrewshire
Son: J E HUNTER 30, Grain Merchant, b Glasgow
Daughter: Elizabeth HUNTER 15, b Millport, Buteshire
Servant: Christina CHAPMAN 24, b Port Glsgow, Renfrewshire
Servant: Martha CHAPMAN 20, b Port Glsgow, Renfrewshire
1861: 2 Tulliallan Place - Govan, Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Parish 646/1, ED 14, HS 61
Head: John E HUNTER 40, Grain merchant, b Glasgow
Sister: Elizabeth HUNTER 23, Fundholder, b Cumbrae Millport, Buteshire
Servant: Christina CHAPMAN 30, Domestic Servant, b Port Glasgow, Renfrewshire
1871: 14 Walmer Crescent, Govan, Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Parish 646/1, ED 16, HS 88
Head: John HUNTER 57, Flour Merchant, b Glasgow
Sister: Eliza HUNTER 27, Annuitant, b Millport?? Buteshire??
Servant: Christina CHAPMAN 32, Genl Servant, b P Glasgow, Renfrew
1881: Glenelg Villa - Helensburgh, Row, Dumbartonshire
Parish 503, ED 12, HS31
Head: John E HUNTER 60, Housekeeper??, b Glasgow
Serv: Christina CHAPMAN 50, Domestic Servant, b Port Glasgow, Renfrewshire
Serv: Frances CARY 19, Manufacturer ????? Employing 100 Men, b England
Suspect something quite awry with the above 1881 - the original should be checked on SP.
Suspect Mrs CHAPMAN is the Houskeeper, Miss CARY the Dom Servt., and John's occupation of Grain merchant has been applied in transcript to whoever preceded him on the actual sheet!!!
Scotland People WILLS Section:
John HUNTER, Merchant in Glasgow, died Cessnock Cottache Govan near Glasgow - Inventory dated 6 Oct 1853.
John HUNTER, Flour merchant in Glasgow, spouse of Elizabeth McLUCKIE - Trust Disposition and Settlement; Codicil dated 6 Oct 1853
So with what Sancti has found - Elizabeth McLUCKIE may be a 2nd wife - stepmother to you Moses?
John HUNTER and Elizabeth McLUCKIE
Cheers
AMBLY
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IGI MARRIAGE (Extracted)
John HUNTER & Elizabeth MCLASKY - 15 Dec 1832 Gorbals
Cheers
AMBLY
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Thanks everyone.
A lot to digest. I must finish my ironing and then I will have a proper look at all this info.
Thanks again.
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Possible match for 1841
1841 HUNTER MOSES Male aged 14 GORBALS GLASGOW/LANARK
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Hi Sancti
I'm pretty sure the 14 yr old in Gorbals 1841, per my first reply, is the Moses HUNTER who was from the Timber Merchant family, married Maria McNAB, died 1872. Lots of refs to that family in the Gazette too!
I'm a little suspicious of George HUNTER, 20, Baker in 1841 with John & Elizabeth - wondering if this is in fact, 'our' Moses?
Cheers
AMBLY
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Hi
I was wondering the same thing about George/Moses as I couldn't find a suitable candidate for George on any later census. He could have course emigrated or died. Moses did call one of his sons George.
I found an entry on the Ancestry message board that contained info taken from the "Incorporation of Bakers of Glasgow" lists dated 1890. It stated that a Moses Hunter entered as a member 27th Aug 1845, was the son of John Hunter, entered 5th Jun 1817, who was the son of John Hunter, entered 19th Apr 1791, son-in-law of Archibald Campbell, entered 30th Apr 1772, apprentice of John Craig.
This could be my Hunters.
Also, the Post Office directory 1870 has listed at 30 Hope Street, Glasgow
John Hunter and Sons, corn merchants
J. E. Hunter
Moses, Hunter
Maurice Ogston White
Arch. Campbell, grain merchant.
A sister of Moses' wife, Jane/Jeanie Sutherland, married a William Kerr and a person with that name is at 42 Hope Street at the same date listed as a grain and flour merchant with an Archibald Campbell.
The IGI has a Hunter family with a John Hunter (b1766 Glasgow) at the head, a wife Susan Campbell (b1770 Glasgow) and 9 children
Archibald b1792
Susan b1794
John b1796
Moses b1798
Ann b1801
Janet b1803
Susan b1805
Robert b1807
William b1809
A very large family indeed.
The John b 1796 could be the John Hunter who heads the family you suspect is my Moses's family. Moses would be named for his Uncle in this case.
This family are also merchants - grain, flour and other materials.
I cannot thank you both for the help and leads you have given me.
I am looking forward to seeing my mother-in-law tomorrow and telling her what we have discovered. Her father died when she was young so she didn't have the chance to ask him directly about his family roots. She was born in the South of England and had no contact with her fathers family in Scotland.
Thanks again
Marie.
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The OPR's have the following BAPTISM's for John Hunter and Mary England
16/07/1818 HUNTER MARY daur of JOHN HUNTER/MARY ENGLAND
30/08/1819 HUNTER JOHN son of ENGLAND JOHN HUNTER/MARY ENGLAND
17/06/1821 HUNTER GEORGE son of JOHN HUNTER/MARY ENGLAND
24/05/1823 HUNTER MOSES son of JOHN HUNTER/MARY ENGLAND
30/09/1825 HUNTER ALEXANDER son of JOHN HUNTER/MARY ENGLAND
12/03/1828 HUNTER CHARLES WALKER son of JOHN HUNTER/MARY ENGLAND
24/11/1829 HUNTER ROBERT son of JOHN HUNTER/MARY ENGLAND
So Mary was still alive in 1829
On the SP Death Index there is a possible record for Mary Hunter
12/03/1832 HUNTER MARY Female at GLASGOW
The OPR's also confirm the marriage that Ambly posted
15/12/1832 HUNTER JOHN and ELIZABETH MCLASKY at Gorbals
And his first marriage to Mary England
21/07/1817 HUNTER JOHN and MARY ENGLAND at Glasgow
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Wow!
I viewed the will of John Hunter who died 1853 last night on SP and this confirms your OPR baptism records. John England Hunter was the son of this John and one of his many executors. The other children mentioned were George, Moses, Alexander and ELizabeth. The wifes name was Elizabeth McLuckie. John had a brother called Robert who is stated as being a baker in Rothesay. John owned quite a lot of land in varios places including Millport, Port Glasgow, Helensburgh and Glasgow. He also held shares in many companies including the Glasgow Gravitation Water Company and the Great Eastern Railway Company. He names some very prominent people in his will including Andrew Hunter Esq late of Cessnoch Park. John owned some land boardering the Park. He also mentions that the land boarded with that belonging to John Hamilton. It is hard to read and very complicated. It will take me some time to sort out. His estate was worth a little under 8500 pounds sterling at his death.
How fortunes change in a couple of generations.
I shall view the will of John England when I have digested this one.
Thanks for putting me onto the SP.
Next I shall have to organise a trip up to Glasgow.
Marie.
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I have now downloaded the will of John England Hunter from SP and it confirms that Moses Hunter was his brother. He left his estate to his nephew John England Hunter. A very large estate, which explains how he was able to retire to Blairlomond, Lochgoilhead with his family.
I think this about wraps up this mystery.
I have told my mum-in-law of her roots and she was extremely delighted.
She asked me to pass on her thanks to all involved.
A very satisfying outcome.
May many more people find what they are searching for using this site and may fortune smile.
Marie
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Hi Marie,
I just stumbled across this thread. It looks as though you came across my thread on Ancestry regarding the "Incorporation of Bakers". I'd be really interested to know if you have come up with any more since then.
Roly
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Hi Roly
What is your interest in this Hunter family?
I have managed to unearth more on this family so if you can tell me what you are particularly interested in I may be able to help.
Marie
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Marie,
Susan Hunter, dau of John Hunter b. 1766, married my ggg grandfather William Jackson. He became a member of the "Incorporation of Bakers" in Glasgow as a result of his father in law. I have very little information apart from that John Hunter was sponsored by Archibald Campbell when he became a member of the Incorporation of Bakers.
I'd be very interested to find out more about this side of the family, so anything you have uncovered would be of great interest to me.
Roly
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Roly
I have been in contact with a Hunter descendant who currnetly lives in the USA who has a copy of the Bakers book with the Hunter enteries you have on Ancestry.
She found that Archibald Campbell, Baker and Helen Paterson had:
- a lawful son , William, born 5th Dec 1770 wit. John Craig and William Ewing
- a lawful dau, Helen, wit. David Smith and Andrew Menzies, Baker
Archibald Campbell was John Craig's apprentice and William Ewing was apprentice to John Patersone (1747).
Andrew Menzies is the son of John Menzies.
Helen Paterson born July 23, 1754 to James Paterson and Mary Menzies, wit. John Reid and James McEldoer (sp?).
IGI has James Paterson and a Mary Menzies or Minges having children
Jean Pateron 29 Dec 1748 Glasgow
William Paterson 24 Jan 1751 Glasgow
Helen Paterson 23 Jul 1754 Glasgow
James Patersone entered the Incorporation of Bakers in 1752 and is the son of John Patersone.
The National Archive of Scotland holds sequestration papers dated 1796 (CS230/SEQNS/H/1/11) for John Hunter, Baker of Glasgow. Trustee named is James Smith, who died in 1805 replaced by Patrick Smith who himself was replaced (1813)by Henry Haldane. Creditors include a Robert Jamieson.
There is a will for a James Smith, Baker of Glasgow, dated 21/5/1804 and also a will of a Patrick Smith, Slater, Glasgow 13/9/1810.
I plan to eventually order a copy of these papers as I am sure they hold vital clues.
The Edingburgh Gazette 1st Feb 1820 has an entry which states that a Joh Jamieson senior, was a merchant in Glasgow who split from the firm of Paterson, Jamieson and Co. of Glasgow. The firm continued with the following partners:
James Paterson, John Jamieson snr, Robert Paterson, John Jamieson jnr and Matthew Alexander.
This was witnessed by James Thomson and Andrew Ramsey.
I have to go for now but I will see what else I have to add.
Marie
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Marie,
That is brilliant. Regarding Archibald Campbell and Helen Paterson's children, I had them as having a daughter, Susan Campbell, who married John Hunter. Are you able to confirm this or have I gone wrong here?
I'd be very interested to know if you uncover anything else in your research. Are you on ancestry or Genes Reunited?
Roly
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Hi Roly
I believe we are correct in thinking that Jonh Hunter married Susan Campbell.
Scotlands People show a marriage of a John Hunter and Susanna Campbell in Glasgow 14th Oct 1787.
The same site has a record of a Susan Campbell christ. 3rd Aug 1772 with parents given as Archbald Campbell and Helen Paterson.
John and Susan have a daught. called Helen, born 16 Jan 1788 baptised in Cardoss,
Dunbarton. This daughter may have been named after Susan's mother.
I am on both Ancestry and Genes.
Marie
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Marie,
I'd be very interested to know if James Paterson and Mary Menzies had another child (or if James had a son by someone else). I have been trying to find out why my ggg grandfather, William Jackson, was brought into the guild of bakers by John Hunter. There was a William Jackson born at the right time who was son of an Andrew Jackson and Agnes Paterson. She was from Glasgow and the daughter of John Paterson. This could be the link, if I can tie John Paterson to the Patersons on the Hunter side.
Roly
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I have made lots of progress with this Hunter family but have now again come up against a block.
Alfred Sutherland Hunter and Norman Murdoch Hunter were brought up by an Brownlee family after their parents had both died 1911. I was told that Mr Brownlee was a Tailor by trade and lived in the Glasgow area. He had a son who was badly injured or killed in WW1. I would like to find out more about this Brownlee family - what connection, if any, they had with the Hunter family which led to this arrangement.
I also have read the will of Moses Alfred Hunter, the father of the above, and he had an interest in a property "aquired right by assignation" namely No.3 Queens Gate, Dowanhill, Glasgow. Also "granted quoad the personal obligation by John Tait merchant, Thurso amd Robert Muir Easdale, merchant, Glasgow, as Trustees". And "in favour of the Rev. William Young and others Trustees for behoof of Mrs Marion Carruth or Young - recorded in the Division of the General Register of Sasines - 18th May 1910".
Can anyone help me understand what all of this means?
Mousey
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Hi Mousy
My father was Norman Sutherland Hunter, he was the grandson of Moses Hunter grain merchant. His father died aged 26, also named Norman and my dad was then brought up by his mother. We have never known my father's side of the family as those connections were lost when he was so young. Have same information as yourself and have recently found gravestone of Moses in Glasgow Necropolis. Would love to learn more about my dad's family. Hope you see this soon.
Misty
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Hi Misty
Good to hear from you.
I have a lot of information available to share with you. Not sure what you do know and what you would like to know. What is your area of interest? I have also recently found the MI in the Necropolis. My late Mother-in-Law remembered travelling up to Scotland when she was very young to visit family in Bishopbriggs. I have some pictures of her father, Alfred Sutherland Hunter, which I could share if you are interested.
Regards
Mousey
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Hi Mousy
Am absolutly delighted to hear from you, my mum and I have been trying for the past 7 years to trace members of my father's family. I have some information also but it might be similar to yours. Is there any way to contact you apart from the roots chat or would prefer to correspond this way.
My dad was Norman Sutherland Hunter, he was born 24/08/1931 and we lost him 23/11/2009.
My Gran was Jane Barrie and after my grandpa died aged 26 in 1932 she raised my dad on her own and we have very little information about the Hunter side of the family. Having looked back at the information again I am assuming that the grain merchant side of the business was lost during the WW2 during the blitz.
Your mother in law would have been my dad's cousin, her father my dad's uncle. Such a shame they never met. My Gran has a wee red book with an address for Essex and I wonder if that would be your mother in law? :Mrs M Hunter, Drumgoyne, Chelmsford Essex. Did your mother in law have any siblings?
I have photos of my father and only one of Norman Murdoch Hunter but could also send them to you.
So look forward to hearing more
Norma
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Hi Norma you can send Mousy a private message where you can give him your e-mail address to correspond that way
Rosie :)
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Thanks Rosie
Will give it a go.
Norma
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Thanks Rosie
Will give it a go.
Norma
Your welcome good luck :) :)
Rosie