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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Shropshire => Topic started by: kneller1980 on Tuesday 21 April 09 17:40 BST (UK)
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I have been researching my family tree for a year and this one problem is bugging me immensely...ANY ideas or information would be greatfully received.
My gr(x3) grandfather was called Thomas Swift, he was born c1851 in Bilston, Staffordshire.
His Mother was called MARY SWIFT born c1829 in Shrewsbury(i have not been able to locate her birth details)on the 1861 census she is listed as UNMARRIED and a servant/housekeeper to a Widow named RICHARD BANKS born also in Bilston, he is a stoneminer.
Thomas and his siblings are listed as the HEADS CHILDREN(RICHARD) ???
on the 1871 census Mary Swift has Married Richard Banks and the census then goes on to list Thomas and his siplings as STEP SON/ DAUR.
so i'm confused?! i've been unable to trace Mary prior to 1861 though there could be a candidate born c1827 though in Wolverhampton and working as a servant in Tettenhall on the 1851...but no children listed(obvious as her work place) but cannot find them on anything else either?
i am very very confused an it's driving me mad! any help would be so good!
thanks in advance! please save me sanity! ;)
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Hi
Son Thomas was born after the 1851 census (see freebmd)
In 1851 Richard Banks was in lodgings in Willenhall with 7yr old daughter Lucy. His occ is iron miner and he is a widower.
I doubt he was Thomas's father or daughter Ann 's aged 14 in 1861 (she was b Shrewsbury) but suspect Richard aged 4 in 1861 could be his
If you look at the 1861 image - the childrens entries appear below Mary Swift. Whilst the relationship of residents should be shown as to the head of the household - I suspect the enumerator is showing them as Mary's children
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Here is the 1861 that you have
RG9 2000 120 13
New Street Willenhall
Richard Banks 37 stonemason bn Bilston
Mary Swift 32 housekeeper bn Shrewsbury
Ann 14 dtr bn Shrewsbury
Thomas son 11 bn Bilston
Richard son 4 bn Willenhall
It could well be that the children are dtr and sons of Mary, the name immediately above them, rather than of the Head fo H/H.
I know ir is supposed to be relationship to head, but often this is not followed strictly. In this case strictly it shlud say 'none' next to the children, or 'housekeepers dtr', but often that is not the case.
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thank you for your response, it really has helped :) do you know of anyway i can find out who Thomas and Ann's father was? i presume as Mary was unmarried they were named after her and also as she wasa servant maybe the family she was working for the father could be linked there?
i'm so confused by it all :) thank you for takin the time to respond and so quickly. :)
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Have you got their birth certs?
That would be the first step.
If father is not named on the birth cert yuo could see if they were christened and if there is any mention of him there.
If nothing on either, then it is unlikely you will find him, unless he is named on any other record that has survived - unlikely.
More likely it is Mary's secret.
but not a dead end - you can still follow Mary's family.
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that's my next step...but to be honest i'm not a 100% sure one is thomas on the birth records as on the census(as always) his age and year of birth changes between a 6 year period! this will tur out to be costly but needs must...i just wanted to check that nobody had them in their tree.
so frustrating! but again thanks for the tips :)
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Births September qtr 1846
Anna Swift Wellington 18 195
A possible only as Penkridge did not include Bilston
Births September qtr 1849
Thomas SWIFT Penkridge 17 111
Ignore - 1851 entry sighted and parents were William and Ann
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you see i got pointed to that thomas before-they were all boat people...now i know that's not my thomas, but i got told that the swifts in my family were boat people-and miners...so i'm sure i'll come across a connection to them.
i was looking into lucy banks and i found her as a lodger on the 1861 census at 17...and i am sure her occupation is listed as prostitute?!?!?! was this common(i mean to list it so bluntly-i know it's the oldest profession) i may of read it wrong but that's what it looks like.
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Being kind - it could be meant to be "destitute" but I reckon you are right and it's prostitute and there were 2 other lodgers with the same occupation
Bet the landlady kept a close watch on her husband!!
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thought so! so that's why i didn't know about lucy...hmmmm... it seems the house was a knocking shop lol! :o ::)
as there are 2 more girls underneath listed as the same-crikey!!!
i'm going to try and find out some more tomorrow and i will pot what i find...it's getting even more interesting :)
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the plot thickens further...today i obtained MARY SWIFT'S marriage Certificate to RICHARD BANKS...
it states '10th Nov 1857'
RICHARD BANKS WIDOW 'FULL' MINER BILSTON
MARY HICKSON 'FULL' WIDOW -FATHER, LEONARD BRAZIER (DEAD)
ARGH!!!!! so you can see my dilema!!! she is on the census as stated above...this is definately the same person so what do you think? Was she a SWIFT at birth and somewhere married a HICKSON, so BRAZIER wasn't her maiden name as her parents weren't married? Maybe-i am really really stuck!!!
Any help again would be super! driving me mad now! :o :o :o
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also WHY on the 1861 census is she listed as unmarried if a) she was a widow and b)already married to Richard...it all doesn't make sense!!! maybe i am wrong and this isn't the right one???
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the plot thickens further...today i obtained MARY SWIFT'S marriage Certificate to RICHARD BANKS...
it states '10th Nov 1857'
RICHARD BANKS WIDOW 'FULL' MINER BILSTON
MARY HICKSON 'FULL' WIDOW -FATHER, LEONARD BRAZIER (DEAD)
I suspect you have the wrong marriage certificate. Remember that in 1861 she is still shown as Mary Swift housekeeper so they could not have married in 1857
Marriages December qtr 1863
Richard Banks Wolverhampton 6b 728
Mary Swift Wolverhampton 6b 728
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damn it!!! thank you so much for you help again-i'm still not very good at this it would appear!!! i'll try and find that certificate and get back to you :)
;D
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Hi,
If you can't find the birth certificate for Thomas Swift you could try for Richard's which would give you some more information about mary:
Sep 1857 Swift, Richard, Wolverhampton, 6b, 417 according to FreeBMD
One interesting family in 1851 in New Street Portabello, Willenhall, that may be worth investigating:
Thomas Price, 27,
Mary Price, 26, Shrewsbury, Shropshire
Ann Price, 3, Shrewsbury, Shropshire, England
Thomas Price,7 Mon, Bilston, Staffordshire
Class: HO107; Piece: 2020; Folio: 391; Page: 41
Deryck
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now that is interesting...PRICE???!!! so very confused now but thank you so very very very much for this information, i'll let you know how i get on.
i didn't think to look under another surname :) ::) ;D
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Looks like Mary Swift and Richard Banks married Dec. qtr. 1863 Wolverhampton - ref. 6b 728.
Annette
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Hi Annette
See my reply dated 2nd May
I suspect you have the wrong marriage certificate. Remember that in 1861 she is still shown as Mary Swift housekeeper so they could not have married in 1857
Marriages December qtr 1863
Richard Banks Wolverhampton 6b 728
Mary Swift Wolverhampton 6b 728
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Apologies Carole - I had registered that you'd pointed out the wrong marriage but had not taken in that you'd indicated the correct one.
My only excuse is that I'd been away for the weekend, it was late and I was tired.
Annette
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thanks for all your hard work, i've sent of for Mary and Richards wedding certificate.
BUT the whole PRICE thing-though confusing seems to be looking rather likely! WHY? i do not know BUT i've searched ALL marys born in Shrewsbury/wellington/telford area AND looked them up through census and the only one it could me IS MARY SWIFT!!! (so if she married a PRICE is another thing) but the family and where they were born etc looks highly likely.
I am investigating the prices further and trying to find, if any wedding certifiate for Thomas Price(1824) to Mary Swift (c1825) i'm presuming given that their youngest child was born in Shrewsbury it maybe in that area?
and if this proves to be founded why she changed her name and childrens back to her maiden name And list as unmarried is beyond me (unless of course she was not married and lied on the census? i've come across a few of these! :o )
Any help appreciated, i'm still unravelling.
i suppose i'd better order thomas price (1850) birth certificate incase it is my thomas swift.
Any one have any idea where bilston would of been under? Dudley? Wolverhampton??
thanks a lot :)
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The registration district would appear to be Wolverhampton according to 'google'.
Annette
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i thought as much...thanks for your replies on this thread, i'll update once certificates are in hand :)
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SO Thomas Swifts birth certificate came today and it's not him :( i'm gutted...i can only presume the next thing to do it get Thomas Price's birth certificate...anyone have any ideas which one it could be? there's quite a few listed for Wolverhampton.
It stated on the 1851 census he was 7 months(about!) and there isn't any for Wolverhampton 1850 ::)
there is a few for 1849...
i'm so confused and disheartened now :'( :'(
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I hate it when that happens, luckily it has not happened that often on my tree:)
I can't see a good candidate for Thomas Price, there is another Thomas Price born Bradley, Bilston that is a good candidate for the Dec 1849 in Wolverhampton.
Have you posted the details from the marriage of Thomas Swift and Ann?
Deryck
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Thank you so much for your help, it's been totally disheartening and i feel like i'm going round in circles :(
Thomas Swift (maybe price?!) Married ANN BRIGHT in dec 1870 (there are 2 thomas swifts that got married in wolverhampton in the same month-i have only just found that out as one was a boatman and that's not my thomas-i'm going to order his marriage certificate to be sure.
I can't find any information about his sister ann swift-as to who/when/where she got married.
I had been concerntrating on another branch of my tree when i came across a swift in research and all this unravellled :( My surname is actually SWIFT so i think it's taken me over a little bit too much-thinking i should of maybe been a Price!!! :-\
I'll post more as i get more info, i'm just waiting for Mary and Richard Banks wedding certificate now!
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You should always look on the BRIGHT side of life ;D
What were the father's names and witnesses for the marriage?
By the way there is an Ann Price b1849 who appear in Huyton and Roby in 1871. Can't see what happens to her after that though.
Deryck
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ohhhh the plot thickens further!!!
today i received the marriage certificate of Mary Swift and Richard Banks.
it states:
DECEMBER 14 1863.
MARY SWIFT, 34 (WIDOW!) FATHER HUMPHREY TOMBLINS (DECESEASED) LABOURER.
RICHARD BANKS 40 (WIDOWER) MINER, FATHER SAMUEL BANKS(DIED) MINER.
BOTH LIVING PORTOBELLO.
WITNESSES: JAMES GOTHRIDGE AND ROSANNA WALKER.
hmmmm so now a bit more confused, she stated on the 1861 status she was unmarried yet she's now a widow. her fathers surname is Tomblins, does this mean she married a swift? and if so WHY can i not find him ANYWHERE! Or was she born out of wedlock.
i've got a feeling it's staring me in the face but i keep looking over the same things...so i'm so used to seeing the information now, any ideas? anyone.
i'm waiting for Thomas and Ann's weddingertificate to come and then some more light will be shone on it :)
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I would guess that the name was most likely tomlins.
There are a couple named Humpfry in Shropshire:
Could this be Ann in 1841?
Meole Brace near Shrewsbury.
Mary Evans 20
Ann Tomlins 15
Thomas Price 50
John Thomes 60
Susannah Price 45
HO107 Piece 911 Book 17 Folio 5 Page 4
All servants, the previous household is a Farm, interesting that there are Prices woking on the same farm.
Deryck
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possible extracted baptism in Condover, not far from Meole Brace & Shrewsbury IGI batch C008832
Mary Tomlins 2/1/1825 dau of Humphrey & Laetitia
Several Richard Banks in the IGI batch C010563 for Bilston but only one with father Samuel
Richard Banks bp 24/9/1820 son of Samuel & Mary
:-\
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osprey, thank you so very much! this seems like them both...that's great.
i don't know why i can't seem to find much information about the swift she did marry, but least i have her real surname now and i can hunt further.
thank you :)
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Hello
I found this marriage in the BMD index, don't know if it fits in.
Q2 1847 Mary Tomline + Thos Swift Shrewsbury 18 259
There is a rake of deaths for Thomas Swift in the county of Shropshire, I don't know the area well enough to take a guess.
Hope it helps
Steven
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THANK YOU!!! mothball i could kiss you :-* it MUST be them!!! it's regular to name your first son after the father so it more than fits in!!!
finally it's starting to unravel, looks like a trip to the shropshire archives for me doesn't it :)
once more i cannot tell you how thankful i am :)
i still need to find my thomas swifts birth info- bilston 1851 (ish!) :)
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possible marriage?
Mary Tomline june qtr 1847 Shrewsbury vol 18 pg 259 with Thomas Swift on the same page
birth reg
Ann Swift june qtr 1848 Shrewsbury vol 18 pg 168
2 posible death regs for Thomas Swift in Wolverhampton - dec qtr 1857 & march qtr 1851
red post, but I'll go ahead because of Ann's birth reg!
;)
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1841 Upper Pulley, Meole Brace HO107/910/12 folio 20 pg 4
Humphrey Tomlins 30 ag lab
Lettice 45
Mary 15
Sarah 14
all born in county
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thanks osprey :) that's ACE!!! :-* i'm so pleased!!!
i've just found humphry and 'lettice' tomlins on the 1841 census in condover where Mary was baptised!!!
after a whole year of banging my head and stumbling-in an hour it's all come to light!!!
you guys are AMAZING!!! thank you so much, without you all i would STILL be chasing my tail!!!
i know who to ask for help next time i get stuck ;)
i just saw your post lol, we posted same time!
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;D
Humphrey Tomlins married Letitia Downton 5/5/1823 Berrington extracted IGI batch M008711
this may be a second marriage as there's a baptism of a Humphrey to Humphrey & Martha Tomlins in Condover 20/2/1803 and
Humphrey Tomlins md Martha Morris 17/5/1802 St Chad's Shrewsbury IGI batch M015752
so plenty of things to check in the archives!
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Hello again, glad this is all of help. I presume you have the 1871 census for the new family?
RG10, 2944, F75,page 7
Steven
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Sorry yes, you have on one of your first posts.
I read that census as Thomas Swift 20 had married Ann 20 therefore Richard born 1871 was from Thomas and Ann.
Marriage Q4 1870 Thomas Swift + Ann Bright or Parker Wolverhampton 6b 747
Steven
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seriously you are awesome!!! i saw that a humphrey had been born to a tomlin but didn't check as i was so overwhelmed and there it is-done for me-fantastic!!! you truly are wonderful :)
now a question....
i have found letitia on later censuses living with her uncle, presumbly due to being a widow she is listed as FUNDHOLDER?! sooooo what's one of those then? does that mean she inherited her uncles estate? Also the former servant to her uncle had a child and on the next census they are listed as JONES and fundholders and letitias neices....so maybe, it is her uncles daughter? even tho there was a massive age gap!
or do i read tooo many genealogy books lol?!
1851 and 1861 census!
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there are 2 Letitia Tomlins around, the one you found is unmarried.
Probable death reg
Letitia Tomlins march qtr 1848 Shrewsbury vol 18 pg 177
1851 Humphrey is in Atcham workhouse, a widower aged 75 born Condover HO107/1990 folio 133 pg 8 transcribed on Ancestry as Toinlius ::)
His death reg
Humphrey Tomlins june qtr 1856 Atcham vol 6a pg 399
can't see a baptism for him in the Condover batch on the IGI, but there are Tomlins + variant names families in the batch and the name Humphrey does crop up.
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I found this one on 1861 and 1871 Census
Well am not that sure (Fundholder - 1861), but on the 1871 census she's still going = Letita Tomlins as living off an
annuitant which I believe is living off shares or the like, some money she inherited I expect!! Great.
There are two references on Ancestry for Letitia Downton Shropshire: Parish and Probate Records, but they are in the Deluxe section and I don't have access to it, so it looks like she was left shares or a some money.
In case you don't have the 1871 Census
RG10 2740 Folio 22 Page 24
Lord it's a complicated tree. She is living as an Aunt to a Ann Bentley and also in the house is George Bentley stepson of Ann.
Steven
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How rude of me, sorry here is the reference for the 1861 Letita Tomlins
RG9 Piece 1848 Folio 22 Page 23
This is the one where she is a Fundholder
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18 Feb 1810 Geo., a bastard child of Letitia Downton.
condover....
oh deary me!!!!
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at the risk of sounding like a broken record, the Letitia who is a fundholder is unmarried and NOT the one who was married to Humphrey Tomlins. Possible baptism for Letitia Tomlins dau of Richard & Martha 4/7/1793 in Leebotwood IGI batch P006601
There's another one ::)
Eliza dau of Letitia Downton bp 25/8/1816 Berrington IGI batch C008712
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awww thanks, i think i quite liked the idea of having a relative with a bit of money-yet same old mine end up in the workhouse ::) ;)
i've got an ancestry world subscription due to me having german heritage as well and half the stuff hasn't turned up on there BUT i have found a members tree who list Letitia Downton and her son George and it goes back on that line to 1260!!! i'm not getting my hope up until i'm a 100% sure but has anyone come across anymore letitia downtons? it seems an uncommon name.
soooo 2 children with no father listed...she was a brave women for those days! i'm going to have to hunt them down and see if i can find any info on george and eliza.
thanks :)
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I did have a quick look for them but no success. There may be bastardy bonds which would name their father at the archives.
I did find some more children for Humphrey & Martha
Samuel Tomlins son of Humphrey & Martha bp 14/4/1805 Meole Brace
John Tomlins bp 19/7/1807 IGI batch P016071
Martha was buried aged 40 18/6/1819 Meole Brace which goes well with the baptism of Martha Morris 5/3/1780 dau of Samuel & Martha in Meole Brace
Possible marriage for Humphrey, their eldest, to Sarah Griffiths 22/9/1829 St Julian's Shrewsbury IGI batch M037432 and burial of Humphrey 1/6/1838 aged 35 at St Julian's.
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wow, thank you for this wealth of information. I have a query tho...
as there are 2 letitia downtons i suppose the 2 'bastard' children could be hers and not my Letitia?! or was there more info to point it to my letitia?
i'm currently updating all this info onto my tree and i am debating a trip to Shrewsbury tomorrow if the archives are open.
it's all so exciting! ;D
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I think the illegitimate children are more likely to belong to your Letitia. Someone who is later an annuitant & fundholder is less likely to be the mother. Illegitimacy was far more common than you might think especially among the rural poor, the rate was 6% in the early 19th century according to a couple of sources I've seen, dropping to 4% by the start of the 20th.
http://web.staffs.ac.uk/schools/humanities_and_soc_sciences/census/illegit.htm
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So i've ordered Thos Swift and Mary Tomline wedding certificate...now it's a waiting game-could be 2 weeks! bah! ::) i'm soooo impatient.
I seem to of contacted 2 people with Humphrey senior and son in their trees which are descended from Humphrey seniors siblings...they have his parents listed so that's another slight break through.
I will be back once the certificate is here as i'm sure i'll be moaning about not being able to find Thos 's parents or such :) ;)
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i have Ann Bright and Thomas Swifts wedding certificate in front of me and it states: father: thomas swift-miner.
it does NOT say deceased/died/dead of anything-did this need to be listed? this was in 1870. it states his father was a miner.
Still waiting for his mother and fathers marriage certificate.
Is there a chance that Thomas's father didn't die? and that is why on census she was listed as unmarried OR was that just an error?
confused-yet again ::) ???
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You never can tell when a father will be described as deceased.
I have one marriage in 1850, both parents dead, only one is described as deceased. Another one in 1873, where the father must have been dead at least 16 years.
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I've got one from the 1840s where the father doesn't have deceased. He was, and the same vicar had buried him about 2 years previously & it's a small rural parish, population about 300.
::)
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ohhhh thos and marys' wedding certificate is here!!!!
but i'm struggling to decipher Thos's fathers name.
married April 12th 1847 in the church of Meole Brace,Salop
both of full age
both live PULLEY COMMON(?)
thos father: (looks like) SAUL...BUT it says sau (unreadable letter) : swift (why does it have : there????) he was a labourer.
And Mary is correct and father is Humphrey, so thanks so much for all your help thus far!
witnesses: james jones and martha swinnerton (i think!!)
argh!!! so yet another stumbling block had a look on An*estry and no sauls coming up there is a samuel in condover in 1841 but thos isn't on there...unless he is the Thomas swift aged 14 labourer on a farm.??? ::) ???
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whilst looking on the 1841 census for a Martha Swinnerton(?) i've come across a MARTHA TOMLIN born 1821.
As humphrey's first wife was called Martha i was thinking MAYBE this could be his daughter? then if i can find a link to her with him and getting married maybe that would prove that her sister was her witness at the wedding. ???
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well martha died 1819 so if the dob of martha is wrong it could fit...argh going round in circles again :-[
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still cannot find thomas swift c1851 bilston, birth certificate...it's officially driving me mad! any ideas? please?! ;D
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don't forget that the ages in 1841 were rounded down, so Martha is 20 - 24 and could be a daughter of Martha.
It could be that Thomas wasn't registered. You could get Ann's birth cert instead -
Ann Swift june qtr 1848 Shrewsbury vol 118 pg 168
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Anns certificate ordered, yet more waiting-i think i'm too impatient for this.
i'm thinking he may of been registered but maybe somewhere else...maybe he wasn't born in Bilston/Wolverhampton and born elsewhere...i've got 3 different certificates and none of them are him... ::)
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I hate it when that happens, luckily it has not happened that often on my tree:)
I can't see a good candidate for Thomas Price, there is another Thomas Price born Bradley, Bilston that is a good candidate for the Dec 1849 in Wolverhampton.
Have you posted the details from the marriage of Thomas Swift and Ann?
Deryck
just wondered whether you had a go index for this birth? i ordered another one and it wasn't him but not come across this one.
thanks
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I wonder if the father's name might be Saml as a contraction of Samuel?
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i did think that may be a possiability but haven't come across one yet-i'm not able to get to the shropshire archives before it closes for a month for the refurb :( so i supposed i'll just have to wait and see...
do you think the fact it has : after the first name could indicate it has been shortened? i've never seen that before on any certificates ???
Thanks for replying :)
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I hate it when that happens, luckily it has not happened that often on my tree:)
I can't see a good candidate for Thomas Price, there is another Thomas Price born Bradley, Bilston that is a good candidate for the Dec 1849 in Wolverhampton.
Have you posted the details from the marriage of Thomas Swift and Ann?
Deryck
just wondered whether you had a go index for this birth? i ordered another one and it wasn't him but not come across this one.
thanks
I think it was this one, Dec 1849 Wolverhampton Vol 17 Page 303
Deryck
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that was the one i got, it's not him :( his father is listed as John! :'(
chasing my tail now!
Even tho i have now found a Samuel in Pitchford AND his sibling and parents on the Parish registers i obviously need to find if he is Thos (thomas) father...
I don't know where to look on line...
the SAMUEL SWIFT i have found was baptised in PITCHFORD, SHROPS 15 DEC 1799, SON OF JOHN AND SARAH SWIFT.
does anyone know where to look to find him and see if he's linked ??? ??? ???
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This was the closest to a Thomas Price:
Births Dec 1850 W Bromwich Vol: 18 Page:579
Can't remember if I checked for a death or census entry.
Also, I couldn't find a BMD for Ann Price in Shrewsbury.
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Ann was registered as Swift june qtr 1848 Shrewsbury.
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Ann was registered as Swift june qtr 1848 Shrewsbury.
If the Prices are a different family there should be an Ann Price born Shrewsbury, I didn't have time to look properly this morning so I may just have missed her.
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i've not come across an ann price, so i do believe there is a high chance they are the same family-why named price i don't know-i looked at the original census and it's not a transcription error.
I've sent of for Ann Swift birth certificate to see if that enlightens us further.
to confuse things further:
Births Sep 1850: Price Thomas Shrewsbury 18 173 (you never know?!)
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also on later census, this 'PRICE' family do not exist...ANYWHERE! so very very strange ??? ::)
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Ann Swifts birth certificate arrived today it states:
Shrewsbury 18th june 1848 st chad district.
Ann girl, born pulley common,meole county Salop, father: Thomas Swift, Mother: Mary Swift late Tomlins, fathers occupation:labourer.
So least we know that Ann is right-there is no birth certificate for an Ann Price with these details ie mother and father, i think i'm just going to order thomas prices birth certificate and get them only to send it if parents listed are correct, can i actually do that?
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yes, you can use the parents' names as a check when you order from the GRO. If the cert doesn't match, you pay £3 instead of £7. Or you could order from the local office and they won't issue or cash your cheque if it's the wrong cert.
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so excited, my hubby is taking me over to shrewsbury tomoz, we are doing a tour of shrops...going to take lots of photos and hopefully find out a bit about the swifts...i'll keep you informed-if you are interested :)
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Still chasing my tail with this one :( the Samuel swift listed apparently had several children(someone on ancestry is researching this line) but amoungst those is no thomas or thos :(
so STILL on the hunt...any fresh eyes and help would be very much appreciated ;D