RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Hampshire & Isle of Wight => England => Hampshire & IOW Lookup Requests => Topic started by: valewis64 on Monday 20 April 09 14:50 BST (UK)
-
Hi I'm hoping someone could shed some light on information contained in a marriage certificate that I received recently. Now the Church I am unable to make out clearly (as it is a copy) however it does state that the copy is from the register of Portsea Island.
The details as far as I can make out from the copy;
1853, Marriage solemnized at "The Church?" in the Parish of Portsea in the County of Hants
No: 350, Oct 12th
John Jenkins, 22yrs, Seaman, HMS Excellent, "Father ?" Jenkins, "Bricklayer?"
Mary Ann Marlow, 23yrs, "Residence?", "Father?" Marlow, "Tailor?"
The marriage was witnessed by Ann Morey and "Unknown?" Morey.
Everything with a ? is too difficult to make out on the copy and I am unsure of the details. I am really after the fathers of both the bride and groom, as this is where I am stuck with my research. Also any other details people have would be much appreciated.
I have John Jenkins' naval records but unfortunately it doesn't have parents details in it either. Also Mary Ann Marlow dies Mary Ann Jenkins on 21st Nov 1896 at Sandown in the sub district of Brading in the County of Isle of Wight aged 66 years.
John Jenkins is still alive at this time and dies in 1908 in the Isle of Wight.
Thanks in advance
Vicki Lewis
-
We would need to see the unclear bits before having a go at making them out. Can you scan in those sections?
-
Hi Lizdb,
Thanks for the quick reply, the link to a scan is below but it is 1.5 mb in size unfortunatley. My original post listed what I thought were the actual entries where possible (?), but as I said I hope you guys can help me out with the remaining. If you need the image changed to make it easier to read then let me know what format you would prefer.
http://lewis-brindley.gallery.netspace.net.au/MCert/MCert
Ok just set up a .pdf file for it so this may be a better option;
https://share.acrobat.com/adc/document.do?docid=eb3043b6-0ab1-40e2-952b-221f81cb1728
Cheers
Vicki
-
Looks like "The Church" in the parish of Porstsea - obviously just the one PArish Church at the time
I'd say her Dad was William, and yes, a tailor
And his, Arthur
-
Welcome to RootsChat Vicky :)
I agree with Liz.
Bride's father William Marlow, John's father's Arthur.
Witnesses Ann Morey and Charles (Chas) Morey
-
1891
they are on Isle of Wight
He gives place of birth as Gosport age 62 (he is naval Pensioner by now)
and she gives Fordingbridge age 61
-
Possible for Mary Morley
1851
HO107 1659 851 9
20 yr old servant
-
Yeah similar to what my husband and I thought, although struggling to find any records of either of them at present. Lots of Arthur Jenkins in Wales which may be where this is going to head. Marlow I'll have to dig some more.
I've edited my previous post to include a .pdf link which allows zoom etc that some may find more useful.
Cheers
Vicki
-
Yeah have John Jenkins details. and have downloaded his naval records from the archives. Looking to expand on his and Mary Anns backgrounds a bit more. So will have to see if there is any birth records for either of them. At the moment I have;
John Jenkins:
Born 15 Nov 1830 in Gosport, Hampshire
Died 1908 in Isle of Wight.
Marriage as per certificate
Farther: Possibly Arthur Jenkins, no mothers details yet.
Mary Ann Marlow:
Born abt 1830 in Fordingbridge, Hampshire
Died 21 Nov 1896, aged 66 yrs in Beulah Villa (?) Leeds Street Sandown, Brading in County of Isle of Wight
Marriage as per certificate
Father: Possibly William Marlow, no mothers details yet.
So going to have to work from there
Cheers
Vicki
-
I think Beulah Villa was the address when I looked at 1891 too.
They must have settled there in retirement.
Which other censuses have you got them on?
-
I have him at Chale, Hampshire in the 1871 census then Brading, Hampshire for both the 1881 and 1891 census then Sandown, Hampshire for the 1901 census.
For 1871 he is in the Coast Guard.
For 1881 - 1901 he is retired.
Vicki
-
I can't easily spot Mary in 1841 but I'm hoping these are her brothers and father in 1851 ...
1851
HO107/1669 806 5
All Saints Southampton
Maurice Marlow, head, 33, Tailor, b. Hants Fordingbridge
Ann, wife, 38, b. Hants Bremer
John A, son, 4, b. Southampton
Martha, dau, 2, b. do.
Elizabeth, dau, 6 mo, b. Bremer
William, father, wid, 67, Pauper (Tailor), b. Fordingbridge
Henry, brother, 14, Errand Boy, b. do.
-
Hmm. Tracing those people back to 1841, there is a Mary but she's age 15
HO107/416/2 32 14
I defo can't find another William who is a Tailor ...
-
Looks good - perhaps a little carried away with the age rounding ....
-
Or she didn't want to appear much older than hubby ...
(There's a 13 year old sister so she probably wasn't much younger than 15 :-\)
-
A couple of possibles for Mary in 1841
HO107/416 Book/Folio 2/32 Page 14
Regent Place, All Saints, Southampton
William MARLOW age 53 tailor
Mary age 45
Sarah 25
Morris 23
William 21
Elizabeth19
George 17
Mary 15
Fanny 13
Henry 4
plus
Charles HERRINGTON a tailor aged 28
William DOWNER/S age 30
Sarah HOLLIER age 13 a female servant
Mary MARLOW age 15 a female servant in the household of Isiah NEAVE a miller of Bickton, Fordingbridge HO107/397 folio 11/26 page 1
-
A transcription of Fordingbridge baptisms is available online
http://www.knightroots.co.uk/transcriptions/Parishes_F/Fordingbridge/Baptisms/baptisms.htm
I can see baptisms for William and Mary's children but not Mary ???
-
I'd not been able to find Mary either. And John Jenkins is not showing up in Gosport. I'm beginning to wonder if he was non-conformist?
Nell
-
Not sure if having their childrens names is going to be of any help but they are;
Rosina Jenkins, b 1855 Plymouth, d 1921 IoW Hampshire
Henry John Jenkins, b 1858 Landport (Portsmouth), Hampshire
Albert Edward Jenkins, b Mar 1864 Freshwater IoW, d 3 Mar 1908 Wellington District, Perth, Western Australia
Matilda Jenkins, b 1867 Freshwater IoW.
Rosina is another hard one as we think she appears as a servant (Rose Jenkins) in the 1871 census (from memory) but can't find any further mention of her until she married Alfred Chambers in 1887 in Christ Church, Sandown, Hampshire. From there we have the list of children all born in IoW.
Regards
Corey (Vicki's husband) :)
-
Hi Corey,
The were married in 1877 I believe, and already had 2 children by 1881:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0649/
RG11/1186 32 6
:)
-
Well I stumbled across this item of information this evening not sure how it managed to slip by;
John & Mary Ann married on this date and the church;
12 OCT 1853 Saint Marys, Portsea, Hampshire, England
Reference: http://www.familysearch.org/eng/search/IGI/individual_record.asp?recid=500028082093&lds=1®ion=2®ionfriendly=British+Isles&frompage=99
Corey
-
For some reason I can't access the Family Search site but this marriage could be of significance to this research:
3Q 1843 George CHITTER/Phebe JENKINS Portsea Isle 7 185
I don't have access to 1851 Census but their 1841 Portsea H/H at Cottage View has a John JENKINS aged 10.
Update 24 Apr 21:35
The LDS site is running again tonight and the 1843 bride is recorded Phebe GRATTON or JENKINS. Seems she may have been living with GRATTAN [sic] parents in 1841 with George CHITTER lodging as there is a St Mary's baptism 1802 for Phebe dau of Peter/Elizabeth GRATTON.
There is a marriage 27 May 1821 between Thomas JENKINS/Phebe GRATTON at St Mary's, Portsea.
2nd Update 02 May 17:29
John JENKINS, Bricklayer aged 21, son of Thomas JENKINS, Smith, married Julia BURRIDGE aged 18 by Certificate on 20 Jun 1852. The abode for both was Cottage View, so this family group can now be discounted.
-
The Parish Register image for the John JENKINS/Mary Ann MARLOW marriage on microfiche at HRO is of very poor quality, and I tried 5 viewers before, after cleaning between the glass plates, I felt satisfied I could make out his father's name: Henry! I sought an Archivist's opinion, without influencing him with mine, and he answered "Henry". The occupation was illegible.
On two occasions when I received similar poor copies of certificates from the GRO I contacted the local Superintendent Registrar in each case for confirmation of the details. I'd be inclined to do the same here as you can quote the legible bits on the cert so that the SR is in no doubt that you hold a certified copy.
-
It was really good of you to check this out at HRO for Vicki.
Interesting that it gives Mary's father as Henry. You could doubt that the marriage certificate says William but it definitely doen't say Henry. ???
-
You misunderstood, bearkat. It was John's father recorded as Henry.
I'm going to take another look at it with a higher magnifying glass next time as an error may have crept in when the copy for the GRO was produced. In higher magnification the image on the netspace site looks 'dodgy' as if a mistake was corrected in the middle of his father's name.
I also have a GRO cert that is at variance with a number of details for bride, father and address, and minus several marginal corrections in the original register held by a Welsh SR.
Update:
After taking another look I am even more convinced that John's father is recorded Henry in the Portsea Parish Register. There is a possible family group in 1841 at King Street, in Alverstoke Parish, Gosport Borough, but sadly it seems likely Henry died before 1851.
-
Thanks for all the possibilities. My husband and I though that it could have been Henry previously because John has a son named 'Henry John Jenkins'. Once we saw the marriage certificate however it placed some doubts into whether or not it was the case.
I will need to dig around a bit to see if I can locate any more information that may narrow it down some more.
On another topic, I'd like to thanks everyone for helping as we were at a bit of a dead end. Also to apologise for the delays in posting due to other rl events getting in the way.
Dee-jay thakyou greatly for checking the microfiche file for me. I'm guessing HRO = Hampshire Registry Office is that right?....GRO I'm at a loss for :)
Hopefully I will be able to get back to researching a bit more and be able to post with a bit more frequency.
Thanks everyone again
Vicki
-
GRO equals General Register Office. In this instance dee-jay meant a copy entry/certficate issued by the General Register office.
HRO is Hampshire Record Office - the official repository of archives for the county, located in Winchester. Portsmouth and Southampton also have record offices which have archives for the respective cities.
Nell
-
GRO I'm at a loss for :)
Sorry to have confused you but the certificate to which you posted the link is headed 'CERTIFIED COPY OF AN ENTRY OF MARRIAGE GIVEN AT THE GENERAL REGISTER OFFICE', which is what prompted me to search for the original entry in the microfiche produced from filming of the local Parish Register.
I should explain that GRO marriage certs are usually photocopies taken from images of hand-written copies forwarded to them by local Superintendent Registrars and, as such, are subject to human error in extracting details from the originals. Had the image of the original entry in the Parish Register been clearer, I would have advised obtaining a photocopy from the Portsmouth Record Office, the repository for the Portsea St Mary Parish Registers.
To some this might seem an unnecessary expense but there are advantages: in one case I was able to establish - by comparing original signatures on a birth certificate and a marriage certificate as a witness - the identity of a 'wife' in a couple for whom no marriage references have been identified in the GRO index. Hopefully this might one day transpire to be an 'error of omission' on the part of a Superintendent Registrar, as I find it hard to believe that the supposed wife would have produced a large number of children without the sanctity of marriage ... but then I can't find evidence of the death, or existence after 1891, of the husband's first wife ... ???
-
It needs to be remembered that after 1 July 1837, there are three possible occurrences of marriage entries that could be obtained, but there may be differences between them.
The most useful, in that it is the original, is the one in the parish marriage register from the church in question. In this case this will be held by Portsmouth Record Office. This is the one that will include original signatures. However, only film or fiche copies are open to public inspection.
Then there is the entry that could be obtained from the Superintendant Registrar's office in the registration ditrict covering the church. This would be Portsmouth/Portsea. However it would be a transcription of the parish register entry. It would not contain any original signatures.
Finally there is the certificate from the General Register Office, which would be a further transcription of the transcription from the local Supertendant Registrar's office.
The last two are open to a multitude of mistakes especially if the writing on the original entry is poor.
The one dee-jay has viewed is likely to be the best option.
Nell
-
Hi all,
I appreciate this is a very old chat, but I wanted to just say thank you for all of the help you've put in here.
The John Jenkins in this thread is my 4th Great Grandfather (John > Henry > Albert E > my Grandfather, Charles), and I found the exchange of your messages whilst looking for the exact information you were helping to decipher - John's father's name.
I felt compelled to just say a quick thanks, as I have found the community regarding ancestral research to be very welcoming and willing to help.
Now I just need to find Henry's father's name!
-
Don't know if there is a link or whether these will assist in elimination?
Marriage Sept 18th 1842 at Alverstoke Parish Church
Henry JENKINS [sgd] of full age Bachelor Merchant of Gosport Father: James JENKINS Merchant
Elizabeth HARDING [sgd] Spinster Gosport Father: John HARDING Builder
Witnesses: x Jane Rewlyn [sgd]; Stepn Silver [sgd]
[DJ note: Someone has kindly transcribed witness Jane’s name in the register as her writing is illegible.]
Hampshire Telegraph - Saturday 20 August 1898 DEATH
JENKINS-On July 17th, suddenly. at his residence at Todmorden, William John Jenkins, son of the late James Jenkins, of St. Thomas's-street, Portsmouth, also brother to the late Henry Arthur Jenkins, of St. Thomas's-street, Portsmouth, aged 70 years.
See Census references for 1841 St Thomas Street, Portsmouth HO 107 412/2 Schedule 58 page 2&
1851 St Thomas Street, Portsmouth ref: HO 107 1658 folio 625 page 21
Hampshire Telegraph - Saturday 15 October 1853
JENKINS- MARLOW - On the 12th instant, at Kingston, Portsea, Mr. John Jenkins, of Gosport, to Miss Mary Marlow, of Southampton.
-
1841 Census - King Street, Alverstoke Parish, Gosport HO107 / 388 / 9 pages 5 & 6 Enumeration Schedule 25
Henry JENKINS 45 Labourer All born in County [adult ages ‘rounded down' to nearest 5]
Mary 35
George 14
John 11
Maria 6
William 4
Amelia 8 mos
JENKINS, William WEST
GRO Reference: 1837 D Quarter in ALVERSTOKE Volume 07 Page 9
JENKINS, Amelia WEST
GRO Reference: 1840 D Quarter in ALVERSTOKE Volume 07 Page 19
JENKINS, Walter James WEST
GRO Reference: 1846 D Quarter in ALVERSTOKE Volume 07 Page 20
Marriage by Banns in the Parish of Portsea
29 Nov 1825 Henry JENKINS Bachelor = Mary Ann WEST Spinster both otp
No 388 Witnesses: Ann GATHERS; Thomas JENKINS. All parties made their marks
DEATH
JENKINS, Henry 51
GRO Reference: 1847 J Quarter in ALVERSTOKE Volume 07 Page 17
1851 Blue Anchor Yard, Alverstoke, Gosport HO107 1660 folio 433 page 38
Mary Ann JENKINS W[idow] 44 Laundress
Amelia 10 Scholar
Sarah 8 Scholar
Walter 4 Scholar
-
Thanks so much DJ
I think I'm down a rabbit hole and second guessing myself.
Henry seems to Marry Ann West in 1825 (witnessed by Thomas Jenkins, presumably a brother?), is registered on the Census as still living with her in 1841, marries Elizabeth Harding in 1842, and dies 5 years later.
I'm assuming; the father of John Jenkins (Henry Jenkins) and the Henry Arthur Jenkins who marries Elizabeth Harding in 1842 are two different Henrys?? But perhaps they just seem to both conveniently be from Alverstoke.
Thanks so much for your info and help!
-
I'm assuming; the father of John Jenkins (Henry Jenkins) and the Henry Arthur Jenkins who marries Elizabeth Harding in 1842 are two different Henrys??
Absolutely!