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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Australia Lookups completed => Topic started by: nortybaby on Saturday 18 April 09 00:20 BST (UK)
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Hi there,
Would some kind person please be able to look up any births for the following parents:
John A (Alphonsus/Alfonsis) Norton & Sophie/Sophia M (Matilda) Haley.
They were married on 24 June 1905. I have found 1 possible on the NSW BDM website - Leslie J born in 1906 but would really like to know if there were any more.
Any help would be greatly appreciated. ;D ;D ;D
Cheers,
Julie
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Deaths:
3616/1920 George M parents John and Sophia KOGARAH
2761/1970 Leslie John parents John Alfonsis and Sophia Matilda SYDNEY
Jamjar
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Hi Julie :)
Birth registrations are not available post 1908 in NSW.
The death certificate of either parent would detail their chn names ie if the information was known to the informant.
Is this her death? I don't see a death for a Sophia NORTON in NSW.
22869/1929
NORTON Sophie
Father William Mother Mercy
At Paddington
Cheers
Cando
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Birth registrations are not available post 1908 in NSW.
Just a note -
Birth registrations are not available on the internet post 1908 in NSW.
However they are available up to 1918 on CD so you can search them at a library or family history centre.
Jean
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Hi Jean ;D
I stand corrected Jean...I usually mention this and suggest a new topic with a suitably headed request. Senior moments today. ;)
Cheers ;D
Cando
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Hi there Cando, Jamjar & Jean,
Thank you so much for your replies.
That's great! Now I have more to look for (which is a good thing). I wonder if they had any more although I wouldn't think so as Sophie was already 34 when they married in 1905.
Cando, yes that would be her death. A note at the bottom of the transcription for the marriage cert states that the signature is clearly "Sophie" Matilda Haley and that the given name had been ticked in the register. Also said, next to the bride's name that it had been "altered from Sophia Matilda Haley". Sopihe's parents were indeed William & Mercy. So thank you very much for that.
Thanks again to you all!!!
Julie
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Hi Julie (nortybaby),
No need for a new thread surely. This one covers what you are looking for.
Julie, It's always a good idea to look up Deaths in the NSW BDM as they can give clues to births later than the online close-off year of 1908 for births.
As Jamjar's helpful post shows.
Jean (jeanlit), Absolutely spot on!!
I noticed this thread and so I asked a local friend (don't like to impose too often) who has the CD (unfortunately not a RootsChatter) for a lookup (hope this is not breaching copyright!) and there seems to be a possibility!!
Bede N NORTON, b 1912, parents John A and Sophia
And references to this chap's death in the Ryerson Index.
Perhaps one of the helpful and knowledgeable Chatters will be able to find the Ryerson reference.
Very best regards,
JAP
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Hi
Bede Noel NORTON joined the ww2 forces.
Service Record
Name --NORTON, BEDE NOEL
Service Australian- Army
Service Number-- NX23228
Date of Birth-- 3 Dec 1912
Place of Birth-- SYDNEY, NSW
Date of Enlistment-- 31 May 1940
Locality on Enlistment-- BONDI, NSW
Place of Enlistment --PADDINGTON, NSW
Next of Kin NORTON,-- JEAN
Date of Discharge-- 29 Jan 1945
Rank-- Gunner
Posting at Discharge 2/3 AUSTRALIAN LIGHT ANTI AIRCRAFT BATTERY
Here is his marriage to Jean
1011/1935 NORTON, BEDE N. to SHARPE, JEAN N. @ REDFERN
Ryerson shows Bede 's death in 1984.
Nothing showing there which is Jean N.
Sue
PS
http://www.ww2roll.gov.au
To also see the index for his brother Leslie's record.
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My goodness!!!!
This is amazing - Bede N seems most certainly to have been John & Sophie's child. I will be looking at this branch most closely and carefully now I have all these new possibilites.
The Noel seems to be a family name (where from I don't any idea) as my aunt - she would be Bede's first cousin - also had the middle name Noel. This is going to be fun!
Thank you all so much for this - Rootschat is the best site ever - all these lovely people so willing to help and advise. Thanks again!!!!!!
Julie
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Looks like dad has a record, also, if he could have been 44 in 1917.
John enlisted in Liverpool and wife Sophie was living at 67 Underwood St, Paddington.
John was born in Bourke.
http://naa12.naa.gov.au and search records for Sophie Norton
Jamjar
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Dear Julie,
So pleased to have been able to start the road leading you to Bede Noel!!
Looking forward to further developments!!
Best regards,
JAP
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Hi Julie
Bede Noel was cremated at Eastern Suburbs Memorial Park on 25/6/1984.
The ashes were taken.
http://www.esmp.net.au/files/crem_search.htm
EDIT To add that Leslie John is at ESMP also and you will see there Gertrude who by his war service record and BDM NSW appears to be his wife.
Can't spot JEAN though.
Sue
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Umm, says John had two children to support in June 1917.
Do we not have 3?
J.
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I think I need to have a lie-down :o :o
I don't know what to say. My bro's and I always thought that when our cousin died we were the only ones left! Of course, we didn't count genealogy and Rootschat in that equation did we!!!
I am gobsmacked with all this info - I had been having awful trouble with this mob and now, in just one day, I have all these threads to follow.
You are a wonderful bunch of people and I am extremely grateful for all your help!!!!
Cheers,
Julie
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Hi Julie,
What information to you have on John and Sophie?
Rootschat is a great way to wile away the hours, on a chilly Saturday. ;D
Jamjar
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Hey Jamjar,
John was born in Bourke about 1873 (I gleaned this from the transcript - it states he was 32 when they married in 1905) although his birth is proving somewhat hard to find. Sophie was born in Hay about 1871 (again from the transcipt). They married in Sydney 1905. They were the witnesses at my grandparents (Sydney Norton & Ada Henry) marriage in 1909.
From what I can gather the boys in the family were pretty close as they lived within cooee of each other (eastern suburbs of Sydney) for many years. In the 1903 census they were all around the same address.
I only got on to this when I was looking at my grandparents wedding (the original from 1909) certificate and saw their signatures - that's one reason I ordered theirs at the same time. Ada is proving very elusive but that's another story.
That's about all I had up until yesterday when I received the transcript of John and Sophie's marriage and today when I had the extremely ;D ;D ;D good idea of posting here on Rootschat.
The more I can find out the better!!!
Cheers,
Julie
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William and Mercy have 4 children registered between '61 and '72 and Sophia isn't one of them.
John isn't showing up either. :-\
Jamjar
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Umm, one of William and Mercy's daughters was born in 1972 with name 'Maria'. Sophia's middle initial is 'M' and I've seen stranger things recorded wrongly. ???
Jamjar
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In addition to Sue's find: EDIT To add that Leslie John is at ESMP also and you will see there Gertrude who by his war service record and BDM NSW appears to be his wife.
There is also a John who may be their son, in the same wall as them.
John Norton, cremated 16-09-1991 aged 59 Located in Bunnerong Walls, Wall A
So, where are John, Sophia and George? ???
At Rookwood?
They aren't in the online registers, so are possibly in the Anglican section. Maybe a kind chatter could check on disc to see if there's a headstone?
Jamjar
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Have you got this certificate:
5548/1930 NORTON JOHN A JOHN SYDNEY
Although no mother's name John A and father John is highly suggestive that this is your John Alfons & variations
I agree his birth is elusive!!!!
regards
Robyn
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Hi there Jamjar,
Had another look at the marriage transcript and her parents were definitely William Haley & Mercy Walters, and her place of birth was Hay. They married in the Protestant Hall in Sydney (although his family were RC). So I don't know if that might have something to do with where they were buried?!
Another poss for John & Sophie's burial is South Head Cemetery - from what I understand quite a number of the family were buried there. I believe that the Waverley Cemetery management take care of it. I've had a look at their websites and they don't seem to have a searchable database - guess I'll email them and see.
Also, I had a look at the Catholic Cemeteries Board site and couldn't find them on there either - it covers 4 or 5 Sydney cem's. The link is:
http://www.catholiccemeteries.org.au
It's a very interesting site - found other rellies there and filled in some details.
Robyn,
i didn't have that reference so thank you - I'm pretty sure that's our John.
Cheers,
Julie
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Here's a little spoke in the proverbial for you:
The marriage of the parents?
2678/1860 William Haley to Mercy Thompson in Tumut.
Do note mother's surname.
With the first child being born in 1861 it is possible that these are the folks.
No marriage for a Mercy Walters to anyone, but there are two Sophia Walters. Not until '71 and '86, though.
You can access the catholic search wia Rookwood's site, too. http://www.rookwoodcemetery.com.au
Unfortunately the Anglican records aren't online, yet.
There is also a CD for South Head. A chatter may have it. You could post new requests for cemetery CD lookups.
If you get the cert for either John or Sophia, it would indicate where they are buried, I think.
Jamjar
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Mercy's death: 14817/1911 Mercy Haley - father's name given as WATERS - aged 74 in GUNDAGAI
There are 6 possibles for William. None in expected area. If Mercy died first he may have moved north to be with family.
Jamjar
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It just gets better and better doesn't it??? :o :o
I had another look at the transciption (to make sure I had the right glasses on!!) and it does say Walters. I've gone back to that piece of paper a number of time now - I should really pick it up and bring it over to the computer ;D ;D
I will take your advice and post a lookup request for South Head. Have to take our little lad back to his carer now (we do respite for kids in care) so will have a think and put it up in a little while.
Cheers,
Julie
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There is also a disc for Gundagai cemetery.
Jamjar
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Hi nortybaby,
Have PMed a suggestion for assistance with South Head cemetery.
I believe this person can help you.
Sue
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Hi,
Re births in Bourke NSW, 1873ish! Umm, when I was at the Dubbo FHS abt 15 months ago I found them very helpful with info on Bourke, and discovered there were 13 volumes of Bourke & District history in their archives. I understood these were being scanned and to be available as a CD set etc. Several of my forebears born in that general area (Bourke, Louth, Tilpa, Cobar etc) from abt 1870 to abt 1910. The NSW BDM online indexes for that area seem to have some transcription errors, and also I suspect the returns from those western districts may have been a tad slow and irregular in arriving at Reg Gen offices, for sequential numbering of whole years returns are noticable!
May I suggest broaden search options when searching for any bdm in western districts of NSW pre WW1, and anticipate lots and lots of spelling errors by the recorders! ::)
Its just my opinion, but based on my observations! Cheers, Just Moi :-\ ??? ;)
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Hi there,
Sue - thank you.
Just Moi - also thank you. I have only just (again with this transcription) found out that John A was born in Bouke so will gratefully take your advice re widening search parameters on BDM.
As I said to jamjar earlier - this just keeps getting better and better. I was at a standstill with this lot and now I have so many things to look at I'm in a bit of a spin. I'll have to sort out my thoughts and info by hand I think. What a great weekend!!!!!!
Cheers,
Julie
PS: I think I'm at my 100th post now - Yay!!!!
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Thinking about what Moi was saying I have found only 3 John births from 1869 to 1890
Only the following would fit, datewise:
10662/1874 Norton John Robert father Robert and mother Ellen at Parkes
I know it's only guessing, but there could have been a transcription error copying ROBERT twice.
It is not uncommon for folk to think they were born where they grew up. As the crow flies, Parkes isn't that far from Bourke.
Congrats on your first 100, Julie
Jamjar
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Hi All,
Jamjar is right about Parkes! I was born some 15 miles out of Parkes, and I am a grandchild of a chap born 1883 at Bourke. In mid to late 19th Century that sparse area was easily traversed by drovers moving sheep to Bourke for shearing and then for the wool to be exported from the Port of Bourke (with its own Customs House etc) direct to England via vessels loaded at Bourke - yes, once upon a time there was water in the Darling! Cheers Moi.
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I just backtracked a bit and did a re-read. I assume John didn't list his folks on the marriage cert?
Jamjar
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Hi All,
When searching online at NSWBDM, if you use the * for a surname and do not enter any other particulars except say "Bourke" for the district, and limit your search to one specific year, eg 1873 you will notice the sequential numbers on the certificates. This also happens in other years, other districts particularly in those districts west of the Blue Mountains, and it seems to apply regardless of if searching births, deaths or marriages from first registrations to umm WW1. Cheers, Moi.
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Hi,
Umm, on 1878 NSW ER for polling place of Parkes, (same roll as Bourke! - "The Bogan" was the 'seat') I have found three chaps surnamed NORTON, and one has first name of ROBERT !!! (ie possible father ??? for John whose birth registered at Parkes, [quote ......
Only the following would fit, datewise:
10662/1874 Norton John Robert father Robert and mother Ellen at Parkes
Jamjar
Congrats from MOI too for 100th posting!
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Oh, and I have 1903 roll too,
Umm, could be onto sumet! perhaps to confirm or eliminate poss candidates for John Norton!
Parkes, (by 1903 was in the seat of Canobolas - 1903 first roll post Federation to include females) polling place has following:
Eliza Frances NORTON living at the Hospital, domestic duties
Ellen NORTON living at Forbes Road, domestic duties
Robert NORTON (no street address shown) Parkes, miner.
Important to remember that great efforts were made to get all females enrolled for 1903 roll, thus it would be fair to suggest that Ellen Norton's address also points to Robert Norton's street address. His occupation - miner, yes consistent with the Parkes area at that time, and also indicating possible links to Bourke and Cobar in earlier decades where there were mines, - that was original reason why my forebears went to that area, but they ended up drovers and shearers!
Ta for reading my rattlings on. Cheers Moi.
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hi.
Bede N Norton
born: 43231/1912
place: Granville
Father: John A
Mother: Sophia M
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Could he have changed the spelling of his surname?
10036/1873 NAUGHTON John Mary A John Mary Jane DUBBO
I like his middle name. Kinda like a boy named Sue.
There's a Sydney Naughton born in Hay.
Jamjar
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Hi All,
I will try to find him on 1903 roll, letting my fingers walk through several western district polling places in several seats, born 1873, he ought to be on 1903 roll! Do we have an occupation at all? I will start with seat of Darling, cause its familiar to moi.
Cheers Moi
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He was listed as a driver in 1917, upon enlistment. He was residing in Paddington.
They were in Sydney in 1906, as per birth of child.
Jamjar
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Hi there, Robert
Are you able to locate birth for George M Norton, brother of Bede? He is died in 1920.
Jamjar
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Hi All,
1903 Electoral Roll report : NOT resident in seat of Darling (western districts of NSW), BUT umm, at polling place of Cobar did find place COBAR, Emma and George NORTON on Old Bourke Road, she domestic duties, he a labourer.
Will try around the Eastern Sydney seats now! any ideas as to where that 1905 marriage occured ?
Cheers, Moi
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Marriage and birth of first son in Sydney.
Jamjar
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Hi Jamjar,
Progress (or lack thereof) Report.
Checked 1903 rolls at all polling places for seats of West Sydney, Wentworth, South Sydney, Parramatta, East Sydney, BUT not having much luck. Sorry. But I am only looking at jeg files online at a subscription service based at Uni New England in Armidale (NSW). Umm, I will try Sands Directories after our evening meal Cheers MOI
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Hello there All
just adding in
1936 Electoral Roll for Bondi North NSW
Bede Noel NORTON Curlewis Street Bondi, Stereotyper
Jean Nell NORTON Curlewis Street, Bondi, home duties
Jenn
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Hi All,
personally I like the "Naught*n" a good variation of Norton. Quite feasible as NORTON can be a phonetic spelling of NAUGHT*N. Long with the fact that he was a John A I could understand him dropping Mary!!!! How good would it be to look at the original entries to see waht is actually written on the forms.
nice sleuthing people
Robyn
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Hi there Everyone,
Thank you all so much for all your help. Haven't had a chance until tonight to get on the computer, what with work, kids etc. I've been able to sit down and look through all this information and have no idea how John came to be born in Bourke. A little background:
John Norton & Mary Jane Blakeney are defitinitely John A's parents. John snr was born in Goulburn 1843, Mary Jane in Sydney 1847. They married in Sydney 1872. (I have all these certificates).
John Alponsis Liguori (very Catholic) was born - according to the marriage cert - in Bourke around 1872/3, the eldest of 10 children (this also agrees with the age he was on his parents death certificates). The others were born (I have their basic details) in Cootmundra, Young, Goulburn, Gundagai, Tumut.
John senior was a miner & lemonade maker, Mary Jane a homemaker.
John A & Sophie were married 24/6/1905 at the Protestant Hall in Sydney. From what I can gather from the info you have given the kids (3 that we know of) were born in Sydney. I have ordered the death cert's for John and Sophie (again from info received from you lovely people) and am waiting impatiently for this. Also waiting on a lookup re ESMP on their burials - possibly at South Head Cemetery.
It appears that Sophie died in 1929 and John A in 1930. This sounds right as in the 1930 electoral John and Leslie are showing as living with Sydney & Ada (my grandparents so they probably either moved in with them after her death or were already living there.
I had a look at John A's records on the NAA website. He joined up in June 1917 and was discharged 3 months later on medical grounds. The papers said that he was "deaf" and couldn't hear orders unless they were shouted at him!
Still wading through and taking my time - I really don't want get this wrong.
I will now look at Sophie's side and see if I can find anything there - the possibilities are endlessand I have some to look at.
Regross - funny about the Mary - my maternal grandfathers second name was "Marie" - coincidence?
Cheers,
Julie
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Hi there,
Sorry it's been so long but I was in NZ and have only just got back. I have a little update for you:
Received death transcriptions for John & Sophie.
John - died 22 Jun 1930. He'd had an accident and died in Sydney Hospital - "LACERATED LEFT FOREARM; PNEUMONIA (SEE NOTE**) - **NOTE IN MARGIN READS: IN COLUMN 5 (CAUSE OF DEATH) ADD: PNEUMONIA SUPERVENING UPON ACCIDENTAL INJURIES - FELL FROM AND CRUSHED BY (NEXT WORD ILLEGIBLE) OF A MOVING MOTOR LORRY. FINDING AT INQUIRY - E A MAY JP, 9 JUL 1930 - A C L BAYLIS, DEPUTY REGISTRAR GENERAL, SYDNEY, 9 JUL 1930"
Sophie - died at home on 30 Nov 1929 of "CHRONIC MYOCARDITIS, SYNCOPE"
On both there is reference to only 2 sons - Leslie J and Bede N. Their ages coincide with the years we have discussed.
Both were buried at the Roman Catholic Cemetery at Woronora.
As for John's birth, I will order a transcription of the following (as jamjar suggested:
Could he have changed the spelling of his surname?
10036/1873 NAUGHTON John Mary A John Mary Jane DUBBO
I like his middle name. Kinda like a boy named Sue.
There's a Sydney Naughton born in Hay.
Jamjar
I'll let you know how it turns out. Well worth a try!!!
Cheers,
Julie
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Hey there everyone!!
Could he have changed the spelling of his surname?
10036/1873 NAUGHTON John Mary A John Mary Jane DUBBO
I like his middle name. Kinda like a boy named Sue.
There's a Sydney Naughton born in Hay.
Jamjar
Well now - a little news- I have finally received transcription of this possibiliy suggested by Jamjar and guess what?????? It's him ;D ;D ;D
NAME: John Mary Alphonsus NAUGHTON
FATHER: John Naughton
MOTHER: Mary Jane Blakeney
BORN: 13th July 1873
PLACE: No 7, Bogan River, District of Dubbo
Woohoo!!!!!!! Thank you all so much for all of your suggestions and input for this thread. I am extremely grateful for all the information and leads you have supplied. I'll now go after his wife - Sophie Haley.
Again, many many thanks!!!!
Cheers,
Julie
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Excellent, Julie :) ;D 8)
Thanks for letting us know the outcome.
Judith
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Nice work JamJar ;D ;D ;D
Julie has one brick knocked down that is for sure
, even if he has an odd middle name, mind you one of my uncles had Linda as a middle name, named after the nurse that delivered him :o
Jenn
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No worries! I guess this particular one is now put to bed - to a point. However, so many more avenues have opened up due to the help I've received. It just keeps getting better and better!!!!!
Cheers,
Julie
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Both were buried at the Roman Catholic Cemetery at Woronora.
Hi Julie,
Do you mean the Woronora Cemetery in Sutherland, Sydney?
If so, I'm right by there and can look for a headstone, if you'd like.
Jamjar