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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: percy on Saturday 19 February 05 17:27 GMT (UK)
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This picture can confidently be dated 1917.
Can any make out what Regiment this man was in ?
Can anyone say for sure whether he has two, or three, (rank) stripes. That is, is he a corporal -- or a sergeant ?
Lastly I have been unable to make any sense of , or get anywhere with , World War I records. To find this chap at all let alone what medals he had . I know from his letters that he saw active service on the continent -- this picture being taken on a short home leave before returning to the front 1917.
His name is SYDNEY REGINALD SANDYS : born 1st 1/4 1879 at ROYSTON, HERTS.
At the outbreak of the War he was 35 years old : He almost certainly volunteered as soon as possible ----- and is known to have survived the War , and emigrated to Taranaki, New Zealand.
Answers will be gratefully acknowledged by Yours, Percy.
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Hi Percy,
Can I ask what seems like a daft question - how do you know for 100% certain that this photo was taken in 1917?
Presumably he lived in Britain and served in a British regiment during the war? In which case, you should be able to search out his war medal record at the National Archives site. But there is a Sydney Sandys of the Border regiment and the Loyal North Lancashire regiment, but only a private. Neither of those regiments seem to make sense for a man born in Hertfordshire, but there again my Granddad, born Middlesex, served in the Sherwood Foresters!
Every British soldier who served in the war and survived received a medal or some description, so he ought to be there. Hence my question.
Also, his companion's hemline and style of dress seem wrong for 1917 - the hemline is too short. I would have put the photo more into the 1920s, but that's a personal opinion.
Nell
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if you have the original photo, i suggest rescanning at a higher resolution concentrating on the head to get a better look at the cap badge.
I would agree with Little Nell thats a very risqué dress for 1917.
Check his letters carefully for clues, the postcards I have from WW1 occasionally show regiment or army number, especially when providing a new postal address as happened when divisions were posted abroad.
BTW looks like 3 stripes to me, a bit wide for 2
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The cap badge looks like the London Rifle Brigade 5th Battallion.....if you can indeed get a better scan, I should be able to confirm it...I have access to images of virtually every Regiment cap badge from around WW1.
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He has two stripes so he is a corporal. The badge is indistinct but it is of the shape of a Royal Artillery badge but I cannnot identify it positively. 8)
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Sorry, It definitely isn't Royal Artillery.....if I can figure out how to attach images....... because until right now I haven't been able to....correction, done it Yippee!
It appears to have diagonal crossing elements (Royal Artillery is a cannon in profile).
London Regt 5th Battn Rifle Brigade or Kings Own Yorkshire Yeomanry seem to match at this resolution, but I think we will all be guessing until the image is clearer.
Al
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Hi percy
his cap badge could be the Machine Gun Corps. Try this link to the old comrades association.
http://www.mgcorps.ndirect.co.uk/
Mick
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I don't think it is the MG Corps....the diagonals on't seem to be at the same angles...image attached hopefully, togetherwith the Army Cylists Corps which was disbanded prior to 1917 if I recall correctly....Not that I was in them or anything!
Al.
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WOW !! Thanks for your replies everyone. The delay has been my trying to post composite altenate pictures.
NELL : I feel sure the picture is 1917 because of a letter of SYDNEY's to his sister Mabel(Sandys) Hewitt, which refers to the homeleave spent with her on which it was taken. The girl next to him is his niece (my late aunt) Eileen (born October 1901) then aged 15 going on 16 . On the other side of him (when the picture was taken ) was Eileen's sister, my late mother Monica (born Feb 1905). Hence the short skirts. I will try to post a picture of Sydney's sister (their mother) taken 1915-1916. together with one of her known to be 1912.
JANE ; AL ; MICK ; and HACK : I did my feeble best to improve the 1.5 inch x 2 inch blurred original on Microsoft Picture-It -- before posting last time.
I have had another go using the 600dpi which is the highest definition my scanner will do. UNFORTUNATELY it then comes out at more than 500 KB -- and so won't post.
In order to reduce the KB I have cut out all the background and reduced the size, and will try to post the result with this.
In working on them it has become clear that he has definitely got THREE stripes and is thus a Sergeant. Still not able to improve the Badge image though.
As for National Archives WW1 records I own myself completely baffled as to HOW to get ANY information from the site at all . I have simply been unable to get anywhere with it.
Thanks again everyone. Please don't give up on Sydney.
Percy
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Have just viewed my posting. Am evidently totally incompetant at posting pictures.
Will try to include the missing ones with this.
Percy
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Obviously a sergeant.
Having had a good study of all the features, including the little bits that show in between the main six elements (I don't think it is a six point star) I think it is the Bedfordshire Regmt.
The middle one of the image below is the 1916-1919 version (solid in the centre)..as I said earlier, without better resolution I don't think we can be certain....In my mind I can make it look like the Army Cyclists Corps.
If you want to e-mail me a larger good quality file, I can try to be more positive.
Al.
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Hi Percy, took it upon myself to post the photo on the 1914-18 war forum, got a couple of replies, the badge could be a Canadian machine gun corps or general service badge, he is a Sergent and has a battle patch on both sleeves above his stripes, maybe 1st Canadian Corps.
Percy if you click on www.1914-1918.net then click on the forum top right of page, then scroll down untill you come to ''uniforms,arms, insignia, equitment, medals.'' click on that, then scroll down and click on ''badge and year of photo identification by mcfc1923 (That's me).
I'm sure plenty more will be posted about your photo during the course of the day.
jim
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Hi Jim,
Thanks so much for your reply, and for posting on the 1914-1918 forum.
Brilliant information about the 'battle patches'. --- I had supposed they were regimental 'flashes'.
What do you think of the possibility of it being New Zealand Machine Gunners --- or NZ Rifles ?
Got to go right now but will look up your 'link' at earliest opportunity.
Thanks again and kind regards, Percy
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No problem Pecy, glad to be of help, the guy who said it was a battle patch is Paul Reed who has written numerous books including a bestseller on walking the somme, i completely forgotten to give them the name of the soldier and where he was born, so i'll post that info to them and i'm sure they will give me more info, i only asked them to identify the badge, once you can pin down his regiment exactly it should not nbe a problem to trace his monements during the great war.
i will ask them about the possibility of it being NZ MG, or NZ Rifles
Regards
jim
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Documents Online part of the National Archives have a war medal card for a Sydney Sandys (albeit he is a private):
Two Corps:
Border Regiment his Regiment No 33926
and
Loyal North Lancashire regiment his Regiment Number 27749
Any chance this might have been him?
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The Loyal North Lancashire person was killed in 1917 age 20 and he was a Sydney C Sandys.
With the movement of Sydney R Sandys around the world there is every chance he could be in Aussie, New Zealand, Canadian, British or possibly South African uniform....the badges for which are nearly all based upon British Design.
Al.
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Hi scotsmum, thought it mite be him myself, but acording to the war graves commision he died in 1917, and percy said he survived the war and that the photo was taken in 1917.
regards
jim
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:-[...forgot to cross reference that....never mind...with lots of you on the job I am sure someone will find him soon.
Happy searching.
ps
Don't suppose he got married during his time in service? For someone in my own line I have a Scottish marriage certificate from 1915 which states the groom's regiment and number as well as his father's regiment and number (although for another line I also have an Irish one from 1917 that just says soldier). Just a thought.
pps
Another Medal Card one:
Sidney Sandy (again a private) Somerset Light Infantry and Royal Engineers
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Hi Scotmum,
I don't know how reliable Record Cards are -- but feel that the Privates cannot be my Sydney Reginald Sandys as the photograph is DEFINITELY him and clearly shows him as a Sergeant, with my Aunt; whom I knew. The picture is from identical albums formerly in the possession of my mother and my aunt.
Would love to find Sydney's marriage . I know he had two sons : one married in 1934 so presumably Sydney married BEFORE WW1. Haven't been able to find a marriage in the UK for him -- or in New Zealand -- so suspect it may have been when he was in South Africa.
Don't think yours is my Sydney however as his father was never in the Services.
Thank you, and everyone else, for your kind help.
best regards, Percy.
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The cap badge isn't either of Somerset Light Infantry or Royal Engineers.
Try www.britisharmedforces.org/index.htm
Most of the badges shown on here (or variations thereof) were in use prior to, through and after WW1.
I'm afraid Percy, me old mate, your best option is a better resolution photo or to extract more info out of whoever you can....just a tiny bit might put you onto the right track.
I have got one of these.....a Henry Swales joined the Royal Scots Greys about 1900 aged 14, was in the Army for years, ended up in the West Yorkshire Regmt.....do you think we can find him on any census?.....and he was awarded loads of medals, including one from Tsar Nicholas.
Al.
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AL ! AL !
Don't desert me now Pal !
Actually, I have just sent the known information, with picture, by Email to the New Zealand Defence Force Personnel Archives --- and thrown myself on their mercy ??
Will let you know if they come up with anything.
Thanks to all. Percy
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percy, a little bit more info from the war forum, it looks almost certain its Canadian machine gun corps, and so he was in the canadian forces.
jim
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HI jim,
Would you let me have the information that makes you think so ???
He DID have an older (married) sister, brother in law, and 4 nephews who had emigrated to Canada in 1907, and purchased extensive farmland in the 1911/1913 Assiniboia Land Grants in Saskatchewan: --- so it IS possible.
BUT it is definite that he himself with two sons, lived, worked and had a business in Hawera, New Zealand at least in the 1930's.
Regards & thanks, Percy.
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I would be surprised if that cap badge is Canadian MG Corps.....the Canadian version has an under-scroll which curves upwards in the centre ( I think this is the only version in which this happens)...all the other British and other versions appear to have perforated letters in a curve down formation.....Percy's Sydney's cap badge has a downward element in the centre bottom.
I'll stick by my guess (which is what we are all doing) is that this is a Kiwi uniform and not British because the stripes aren't white.
Al.
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Percy,
Just checked back on the war forum and another reply has been added and the guy says that ther is no canadian called sydney reginald sandys listed on the canadian expeditionary force dateabase website, apart from one sandys who was born in calcutta.( but we already knew he was not canadian anyway)
From what i have read on the war forum, the main reason they think it most likely to be canadian MGC(although they admit it is difficult to see the badge clearly) is that the soldier is wearing collar badges which were forbidden on british soldier dress jackets untill the 1920's(they explain it in more detail, i'm just giving you the rough outline)
So I beleive that eagle eyed artcetera (Al ) may be on to something that they have missed, so i'll let them know what Al has said and see what reply's we get.
nice one Al
jim
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Jim, Ta....it's my job (in more ways than is evident...unfortunately nothing to do with geniewotsit)
Percy, I think you should post the other photo of Sydney with the Naval or Police cap....see if anyone can tie that in.
I don't think it is the Natal Police, but where was he when it was taken, Natal?
Al.
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another view from the war forum, one guy says that only the Canadian second division MGC Battalion badge had an upward scroll at the bottom.
The 3rd canadian and somewhat the 4th canadian division MGC
battalion badge both had downward scrolls, and he is almost certain it's not a british uniform.
thought i would just pass the info on
jim
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The trouble is, the diagonal element at top left is too thick for a machine gun barrel, it's more like a rifle barrel.....and it isn't a scroll at the bottom....God knows what it is.
Here is Percy's badge, played with.....you have a go.....I've gone through about 500 images now!
Al.
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as percy thought, a possible NZ Rifles badge ?, from what i have seen from both forums, i think i have to go with you on this one Al.
jim
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Hi Alan & Jim,
Have had trouble with my computer to-day.
Attached, I hope, is another attempt at Sydney in uniform , and also a pic of an NZ Rifles badge.
Looking carefully at Sydney's right-hand facing collar badge, I really believe I see the crossed rifles of the NZ badge --- and conclude that Alan was right all along.
I have heard nothing yet from the MZDF Personnel Archives , but will let you know if they come up with anything..
Will try to port the Sth. Africa snap you mention in a post to follow this.
regards and thanks, Percy
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Here below -- I hope -- the picture I think you asked for of Sydney in South Africa at Port Shepstone, Natal in 1904.
I cannot make out which of the two men is Sydney, and he did not indicate which on the Picture Post-card -- dated 1904.
Sidney was in the Police in the UK in 1898 -- I believe at St. Ives Huntingdon. I do not know WHAT he did in South Africa.
Percy
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I have to aggre with you there percy, full marks to Alan.
great photo from 1904, i dare not say which one i think is sydney, i'll leave that to Alan ;)
jim
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I have to aggre with you there percy, full marks to Alan.
great photo from 1904, i dare not say which one i think is sydney, i'll leave that to Alan ;)
jim
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My Thanks to everyone who read and replied to this one.
It turns out SYDNEY was a SERGEANT in the NEW ZEALAND ARMY in WW I on active service on the Continent.
I now have his Service number, but not yet his Regiment. When I have that I'll Post it to clear up the Badge question.
The New Zealand Defence Force personnel Department are sending me a copy of his file. He survived the War but -- unsuprisingly -- has since died.
Thanks again everyone --- especially my pal Al
Percy
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Glad to hear you got a result...well done....have enjoyed following this 'mystery' as it has been a welcome break from the many mysteries in my own lines ;D.
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Wow,Percy,what beautiful photographs,its so nice to see these old pics still survive so well,
I cant help you I'm afraid I'm struggling trying to identify my own family pics,but just wanted to say how very much i enjoyed the photos.Thank you.Love Ann.xx :) ;)
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To all those who were kind enough to try to help identify SYDNEY R.F. SANDYS rank and regiment etc.,
I promised to POST the results sent to me by the New Zealand Defence Dept --- which I have at last received.
From the 1901 UK Census and a South African Postcard sent by Sydney (dated 1904) it is clear that Sydney went to South Africa after Census 1901 and before 1904. While in South Africa he contracted Malaria.
His New Zealand military record shows that he married a Miss M. Grieves in South Africa on 22nd December 1906 ----- shortly thereafter emigrating to New Zealand, where his first son was born (registered Auckland) 22nd September 1907. Second son's birth registered Auckland N.Z. June 1910
He prospered there and at the time of enlisting "For the duration" was 'Works Manager' of a major firm.
Promoted L/cpl, Cpl. then Sergeant, he was posted to the UK, and sent to France.
Following the summer 1917 home leave on which the picture I 'Posted' of him was taken, he reverted to Private "At his own request", and was sent back to France with 'A' Company, The 4th Reserve Battalion, Auckland Infantry Regiment.
He was again promoted L/Cpl, then Cpl --- but again reverted to the ranks "At his own request", before being wounded in action on 13th September 1918 sufficiently severely to be hospitalized,and receive treatment until 20 October 1919; shipped back to New Zealand and invalided out in 1919 as a L/Cpl once again.
By Jan 1932 he had recovered sufficiently to have set up a Brewery business, built himself a house and, according to a later 1930's N.Z. Newspaper article, take ship on a six month 'buying trip' with one of his sons, during which they intended to do some big game hunting.
Sydney lived to be 72 and died on 7th April 1951 at Auckland, New Zealand.
Once again, my sincere thanks to everyone ------- especially to my pal AL.
Percy.
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Hello Percy - just had to say I have been following the story of Sydney Sandys with great interest.
Thank you for posting his 'potted' history. I'm so pleased that you were able to put all the pieces of the puzzle together and how lovely to be able to tell future generations his story - thats one man who won't remain just 'someone' in an old photograph...
Suey
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nell,your right about the date being wrong,they didnt wear collar badges till after the war,manmack