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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: smeni on Wednesday 15 April 09 21:03 BST (UK)
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Part of my family research is trying to find Ada Mary, who was born in 1844 in Southwark. She married around 1875 and subsequently lived in Camberwell, where she is listed on 1881 census as a widow with one son Frank aged 4 years and her sister Amy, who is 7 years younger than Ada. The surname on the census is Edmunds, but later on, on 1901 census it is Eidmans - the name I am researching. I cannot find a birth record, or a record of a marriage, so can't track down which Eidman/s she did marry, if indeed they ever were married! Can anyone help please?
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Hello,
here she is in
1851 HO107; Piece: 1558; Folio: 76; Page: 15
listed as Aday Trapp 7 yrs
one sister is listed as Adey Frances 2 months and I assume that this is Amy who is with her in
1871 RG10; Piece: 722; Folio: 76; Page: 27
If you need full details, I would be happy to post. I will continue to search.
heywood
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Hi 1871 census 722/76 7 Brunswick Road Camberwell
Ada M 27 Indepen.
Amy F 24
both born City of London
Elizabeth Pelguin 60 House Keeper Hedley Hants
4 doors away at number 11
Henry T? Trapp 22 Tallin Merchant empl.4 men & clerk born Southwark
Jessie 29 Wife Barling Kent
Jane Wilson 16 General Servant Walworth
Jennifer
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She is registered on Free BMD as Ida Mary Trapp- June 1843.
As you say there is no marriage on Free BMD for any variation of the name either.
In a rather crude way of checking, I have looked at marriages for variations of Edmunds 1871-1881 and deaths for same to compare (Camberwell only) but nothing comes up.
There is a Joseph Stayner Eidmans marriage 1876 but spouses are there and no Ada. :-\
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Free BMD
Birth: Frank Eidmans March quarter 1877 Camberwell 1d 795
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Full 1851 census;-
1558/76 1 Church Street Southwark
Thomas Trapp 42 tallow Melter
Margaret 39
Thomas 12
Margaret 10
Ada M 7
Henry F 1
Amy F 2 months All born Southwark except Thomas Jnr. Looks like born Acton?
Mary Taylor 22 Servant.
Jennifer
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1861 Census indexed Srapp
315/123 1 Church Street Southwark
Thomas J 52 (mar) Tallow Melter
Thomas W 22 born Isle of Wight
Margaret 20
Sarah Rydale Serv 22
George Pryor? brother-in-law 26 Fruit Salesman born ?
Amelia Edmonds 34 Visitor born Newbury Berks.
Perhaps someone else can make more sense of the name and place of birth for George?
Jennifer
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Hi 1841 census 1088/2/31 Church Street
Thomas Trapp 75 Tallow Chandler not born in the County
Elizabeth 60 not born in the county
Thomas 30 Tallow Chandler born in the county
Maria 25 b.i.t.c " "
William Thomas 3 not B.i.t.c
Margaret 3 months b.i.t.c
Jennifer
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Hi Smeni,
I have looked at the full indexes 1874-77 and cannot see a marriage for Ada.
The birth certificate for Frank would have his father's name.
best wishes
heywood
Added:
1891 RG12; Piece: 462; Folio 145; Page 55
Eda and Frank Edmunds
however the birth registration seems to point to the name you are following
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Hi, a marriage for a Thomas Pierson Trapp and Margaret Holmer St.Saviour Southwark 12 March 1833.
Jennifer
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Death:
Ada M Eidmans 1919 (birth given as about 1832) Lambeth
that's about it I'm afraid. I hope that there is something here for you. It does look as though Ada was within your family somewhere and Jennifer C has worked hard to get all the Trapp entries.
best wishes
heywood
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Hi, If you intend to buy Frank's birth certificate, can you post the father and his occupation I would be interested to know if he was a spectacle frame maker?
There is an Eidmans family with the father not at home but wife given as wife of a spectacle frame maker.
Jennifer
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Hi
Thomas Trapp and Thomas Pierson Trapp, tallow chandlers etc, are listed as bankrupts here in 1845 - last item on page: http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/issues/20542/pages/6235
Rob
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Hi, If you intend to buy Frank's birth certificate, can you post the father and his occupation I would be interested to know if he was a spectacle frame maker?
There is an Eidmans family with the father not at home but wife given as wife of a spectacle frame maker.
Jennifer
Hi Jennifer,
Is that Marianne? She is in the censuses without her husband but with her children. Free BMD marriage has 1854 Joseph Stayner Eidmans to Marianne Varnham.
I assume that it is son Joseph who marries in 1876 ???
Joseph Edmans is visiting in 1881 RG11; Piece: 670; Folio: 58; Page: 4 and is a lodger and widower in 1891. In both cases there is an Eliza Jones as householder.
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Hi,
No, it was a Katherine Eidmans with her children in 1891 census 482/70?
It is interesting that an Amelia EDMONDS is on the 1861 census as a visitor born Newbury BERKSHIRE? (with Thomas Trapp Snr.)
Jennifer
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Ah well there are two opticians not at home and that is a really good find :D
Won't be here now for a few days so I do hope that smeni gets something from all this hard work ;D
Btw - Marianne (I think from memory) had a Frank too- I know that somewhere there is another Frank Eidmans anyway.
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Hi, What is the ref for the census for Mariannne, I don't seem to be able to find her?
Jennifer
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Thank you everyone. This is a bit of a puzzle. Joseph Stayner Eidmans was, apparently, the illegitimate son of Eliza Eidmann, who was a half sister to William Eidmann, in my tree. I met someone a few years ago with a similar surname and we have tried, subsequently, to see if there is a link. She always maintained that Ada was married to Joseph Stayner Eidmans, and her branch of the family was descended from them, through Frank. She had done a great deal of research and established that Joseph, and his descendants, were opticians. Since I have started on the trail, I have found that Joseph Stayner may have had two families - one with Marianne Varnham (first wife) and subsequently with Katherine Churchman, who he may have married but never lived with - now it would seem there is something in the fact that he may have had a third family with Ada Trapp! Only the certificates will tell, I will try and obtain them when I return to UK (away at moment in sun - but its raining which is why I started looking at this!). Also, I have left my research papers in UK which may also throw up some more info. I have a copy of Frank Eidmans' marriage certificate - he married Dorothy Robins - shown on 1901 census. All the help given is greatly appreciate.
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Hi have found 1 Daniels Road Camberwell 1891 Census 478/113 Indexed as ERDMAN
Frank Eidman 29 Optician born Holborn
Eliza 20 wife born Peckham
Ida M 3 months born Peckham
Ida Marian Eidmans born Mar qtr 1891 Camberwell.
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Ada Mary's son Frank born 1877, on 1901 census his occupation is a Librarian, my contact knew of this - he worked in Tooley Street? in London. Most of the families seemed to live in Camberwell. Apparently his wife died after giving birth to twins, Rupert and Katherine, who were taken in by a religious order, after he could not cope with bringing them up. He married again, not sure of name of wife, and had another family.
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Hi, Holdens Directory 1811 entry:-
Thomas Trapp 1 Church Street Borough Tallow Chandler
Jennifer
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Thanks again for all the help. I was told this part of the family were Moravians and that Ada Mary later converted to Catholicism and may have been associated with Cardinal Newman(?) - and that she travelled as part of his entourage? Must take these various notes with me and look further at info I already have, to see what ties in. On the Ancestry web site, there are a couple of public family trees that have Joseph Stayner Eidmans in them, and only one that includes Ada Mary Trapp, but although they mention a marriage, show no evidence of it, and also mention "marriage ended" but again, no evidence quoted.
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Further info here - marriage is stated as taking place 1875 in Camberwell? I can't find any evidence of it, and indeed, Joseph (the son) married Fanny Townsend in 1876 in Camberwell - so what does one read into this? Wonder if anyone can access 1911 census yet to see where Ada was at that time?
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Hi, What is the ref for the census for Mariannne, I don't seem to be able to find her?
Jennifer
Hi everyone,
sorry for the late reply- just got back from a few days break!
1871 RG10; Piece: 423; Folio: 13; Page: 19
4 Bartletts Buildings London
Marianne Eidmanns married 34 yrs housekeeper b Surrey Lambeth
Joseph 15 yrs Gasfitter b Borough
Arthur 14 yr Jeweller's apprentice b Surrey
William 12 yrs office boy b Ireland
Jane 10 yrs scholar b Middlesex St Brides
Frank 8 yrs scholar b Middlesex St Andrews
Louisa Cox lodger 20 yrs bookfolder b Herts Romsey
1881 RG11; Piece: 684; Folio: 76; Page: 30
Marianne is an optician's wife plus Arthur, William, Mary J (Jane?) and Eliza aged 8 yrs.
I can't spot them in 1861- perhaps they were in Ireland as William was born there.
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Thanks Heywood. Bartletts Buildings is in High Holborn, and was where the opticians business was run - have tracked down business card for the period, which gives this detail!
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Ada Eidmans b 1844 is in the 1911 census index in Southwark but there doesn't seem to be any Eidmans with her.
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I'm getting a bit confused here now:
Could Joseph snr have been in the relationship with Ada? He is absent from Marianne during those censuses.
1881 RG11; Piece: 683; Folio: 5; Page: 4
Joseph, Fanny and children- including Frank aged 3 months
1891 RG12; Piece: 238; Folio 20; Page 32
Joseph, Fanny and children living at Bartlett Buildings but no Frank. (check re deaths- died 1881)
1881 RG11; Piece: 673; Folio: 6; Page: 5
Katherine Eidmans (Churchman) wife to spectacle maker living Camden Row, Peckham Rd with children, Henry, Ernest, Catherine and Edward.
I can't see this family in 1891 although Jennifer mentions them.
1901 RG13; Piece: 506; Folio: 48; Page: 31 -s till in Peckham- Katherine is a 'wife'. The children are not in the opticians' trade.
Mmm... where to from here?
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Yes indeed its a puzzle! Will look at files when I return to UK and try and make some sense of it all!
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Hello,
I've only registered today and saw this trail.
My great-grandfather was William Eidmans, born in Cork, approx 1859. His older brother and his father were both called Joseph Stayner Eidmans.
I have a couple of certificates, which could be useful to you.
Joseph Stayner Eidmans married Marianne Varnham in Newington on 19/06/1854. Marianne died in 1888. Joseph remarried in 1898 to Katherine Churchman.
I have both of these marriage certificates and can let you have more details.
Joseph's eldest son, also Joseph Stayner Eidmans married Fanny Townsend in 1876 in Camberwell.
Unfortunately, I little or no information regarding Ada Mary Trapp, nor information earlier than the Joseph born approx 1832. His father is listed on the marriage certificates also as Joseph Stayner Eidmans and I have found that there is an Eliza Eidmans listed on BMD as having died aged 83 in 1898, which could make her Joseph (1832) 's mother.
Kind regards
Greg
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that is very interesting, and I would very much like to have the details from the marriage certificates you have, if that is possible. will look into my own info (I have been away from home for a while) now, and try and tie in some of the records I have. I always understood that the original family name was "Eydmann" changed to "Eidmann" and it was assumed an error (deliberate or otherwise) changed the last "n" to an "s". Our side of the family dropped the last "n" around 1900. look forward to receiving your info!
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Hello,
Joseph Stayner Eidmans married Marianne Varnham on 19th June 1854 at the Parish Church in the Parish of St Mary Newington, Surrey. Joseph Stayner Eidmans was a bachelor of full age working as a civil engineer, living in Lacey Terrace. His father was Joseph Stayner Eidmans, a merchant. Marianne Varnham was a minor and a spinster, also living in Lacey Terrace. Her father was Arthur Varnham, a stationer. The witnesses were E Varnham, her sister and an unreadable entry.
Joseph Stayner Eidmans married Katharine Churchman on 2nd August 1898 at the Congregational Church, High Street Lewisha, London. Joseph Stayner Eidmans was a widower aged 62 years working as an optician, living at 43, Albacore Crescent, Lewisham. His father was Joseph Stayner Eidmans, a merchant, deceased. Katharine Churchman was a spinster aged 42 years living at 26, Hollydale Road, Peckham. Her father was William James Churchman, a cashier, deceased. The witnesses were Horace J Barnes and William Burgess.
Note that his son, William's marriage certificate lists him as an optician in July 1886.
If you want scanned copies, then let me know and we could perhaps exchange e-mail addresses...
I would be interested in the details of any Eidmans certificates that you have, since I am trying to piece together this complicated part of my tree.
Finally, my mother vaguely remembers that the Eidmans were a family of opticians and that they changed the surname at some point (though she cannot remember how it was changed). I am going to contact her cousins to see if they have any other family history.
Kind regards
Greg
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Thanks Greg, great info. Will PM you with e-mail and other family info.
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Just to update anyone who has been following this thread, I think we have established that Ada did not marry Joseph Stayner Eidmans, but did have two children with him (he is named as the father on Frank's marriage certificate). The older child died, just as Frank was born. There is another Frank Eidmans, he is older than Ada's son. I have been in contact with a lady who is researching part of Ada's family, and she has come to the same conclusion. There is simply no evidence that Joseph and Ada married. Joseph did marry twice, the first time to Marianne Varnham. After she died, he married Katherine Churchman, with whom he already had a family. There is no evidence to prove they ever lived together, though, as various census show he was always away from home on the night of the census! Will continue with research, never know what might turn up! Ada lived until 1919, with her sister, and always referred to herself as Ada Eidmans.
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thanks for the update and glad that it is coming together!!
good luck
heywood
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Very interested in this thread as my dh's great-grandmother is the Ada Mary Trapp in question.
We too have been searching for a marriage for Ada and Joseph.
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May I put a few things into the mix. I think that I am the person refered to as having a family decended from Frank Eidmans. He was my husband's grandfather.
Frank did not marry a Dorothy Robins but a Mary Margaret Julia Ellen Robin who as she was very small of stature was known as Dorothy ( a reference to Little Dorrit).
I am still trying to find a marriage for Ada and Joseph as although it is possible that they did not marry I think as Ada was such a staunch catholic it might have been that they divorced and in her eyes she was widowed.
Also Joseph registered the birth of Frank (and the death of William) so would he have done so if not married to Ada I wonder?
I have done a great deal of work on the Trapp family and I am willing to share my research to date.
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Hello,
Although I have continued to research the Eidmans, I do not have much more information regarding the Trapp family.
Joseph was born in 1832, married Marianne Varnham in 1854 and had at least 10 children between 1855 and 1873; Marianne died in 1888.
He had at least 4 children with Katherine Churchman between 1876 and 1880, although he did not marry Katherine until 1898.
He appears to have had at least 2 children (Joseph Thomas and Frank) with Ada Trapp between 1876 and 1877, and they all took his name, though I have not found any evidence of a marriage.
Joseph died in 1903.
In addition, Joseph appears to have made himself scarce on many census nights.
I would love any further information with regards to Ada Trapp, her children and family. I believe that Joseph Thomas Eidmans died in 1877 aged 1. As you have already stated, Frank Eidmans married Mary Margaret Julia Ellen Robin, they had twins in 1909, although Mary died in childbirth; the twins were fostered. Frank remarried Ada Ann Bradford. This is all that I have on Ada Trapp's family.
Kind regards
Greg
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Ada Mary's son Frank born 1877, on 1901 census his occupation is a Librarian, my contact knew of this - he worked in Tooley Street? in London. Most of the families seemed to live in Camberwell. Apparently his wife died after giving birth to twins, Rupert and Katherine, who were taken in by a religious order, after he could not cope with bringing them up. He married again, not sure of name of wife, and had another family.
Am in touch iwth Eidmans from Wales. Ancestor was an optician in London. Jim Eydmann from America
I am helping cycleboy with his first post Regards Sarah ;)