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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: tika on Monday 13 April 09 16:18 BST (UK)
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I have a burial record of Jean Gordon, wife of John McNeil, Weaver who died 29th March, 1844 aged 45 yrs.. It shows she is buried in common ground in St. Mungo Cemetery. Can anyone tell me if someone buried in common ground would have a stone erected? Also where exactly St. Mungo's is situated. I assume it is in the Gorbals area. Any info would be appreciated. Her husband John did not die until 1867 in the city poorhouse so assume they didn't have much money. Where would I find the poorhouse records to see if they give any more info on him as he is registered without parents being shown?
Thanks.
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The St Mungo Burial Ground was near Glasgow Cathedral
The area adjoins Castle Street on the East and lies between Royal Infirmary and the Asylum for the Blind.
The Poor Law Records are not available online but can be viewed at the Mitchell Library in Glasgow.
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The same area today - the second image shows the relative position of the City Poorhouse to the burial ground (the Poorhouse was situated in the top left corner area of this image) if the family were from the Gorbals area originally it is possible that this death occurred in the Poorhouse
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Thanks for the taking the trouble to post the map and aerial photos. On the burial record for Jane Gordon her residence is shown as Soho Square which I presume is close to St. Mungo's. Her husband was a weaver so obviously they had little money.
Regards
Morag
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I have a burial record of Jean Gordon, wife of John McNeil, Weaver who died 29th March, 1844 aged 45 yrs.. It shows she is buried in common ground in St. Mungo Cemetery. Can anyone tell me if someone buried in common ground would have a stone erected? Also where exactly St. Mungo's is situated. I assume it is in the Gorbals area. Any info would be appreciated. Her husband John did not die until 1867 in the city poorhouse so assume they didn't have much money. Where would I find the poorhouse records to see if they give any more info on him as he is registered without parents being shown?
Thanks.
Hi Morag,
You would not normally find a gravestone for ancestor,s buried in common ground.
In the case of my great grand parents of the 4 people buried in the burial plot (as often is the case) there is one person who is not related to the other 3 buried there.
The fact that your ancestors are buried in common ground would come down to cost as it was expensive to be buried and even more expensive to have a grave stone.
The bigger the gravestone/crypt the more wealthy you were.
regards,Billy.
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Thanks for the taking the trouble to post the map and aerial photos. On the burial record for Jane Gordon her residence is shown as Soho Square which I presume is close to St. Mungo's. Her husband was a weaver so obviously they had little money.
Regards
Morag
I must admit that I haven't heard of Soho Square although there was a Soho Street which ran off of Gallowgate in the East End of the City - possibly within 1 mile of the burial ground.
Although weaving was once one of the main trades of Glasgow and surrounding areas (nearby Calton was established primarily as a centre of weaving) by the 1840's it was well on the downward trend.
Have a read at
1. 19th Century Weavers (http://gdl.cdlr.strath.ac.uk/haynin/haynin1011.htm)
2. Weavers Strike (http://www.gcal.ac.uk/radicalglasgow/chapters/weavers.html)
3. Glasgow Trades Houses (http://www.tradeshouse.org.uk/associated_trades/weavers/Weavers.asp)
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Thanks for your links - had a read at them. John McNeil was born at Arnot Hall, Lanark around 1800 (Taken from census). I have been unable to trace Arnot Hall or his birth. However I found 6 siblings born around Cadder, Barony and Glasgow. I have managed to trace his parents with difficulty as they are not shown on his death extract. His son married a cousin so was able to trace her side back and found John's parents as Lachlan mcNeill and Jean Martin. I even have Lachlan's death but cannot get back another generation. Lachlan was a foreman Dyer so obviously in the weaving trade and was married at New Monkland in Feb 1797 (just after the weaver's strike). I was always told the McNeill's came from Barra but can't trace them any further back. However to get back over 200 years is good.
Regards
Morag
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If you can manage to get to the Mitchell Library to look at the Poor Records you may get more information.
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Hi Morag
I wonder if his birthplace might be Annathill, which is not far from New Monkland
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Hi Sancti,
Thanks for the suggestion but I have the original from 1851 census and it definitely says Arnott Hall, Lanark - bit of a mystery. I will try to get to the Mitchell Library but don't think it will be anytime soon.
Morag
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Hello there,
I found this reference in an obituary for a cousin of an ancestor of mine, "His father came from Glasgow, Scotland in 1802 and taking up land six miles of where the Boisdale church now stands, he called his home after the place of his birth, St. Mungo’s Englais Chu. (Beloved church). " Would this church be near the graveyard you are discussing here? Would church records exist for this church? My ancestor's brother James MacNeil was supposed born there about 1798. There was a sister Catherine born about 1796. The younger children were born in Cape Breton.
Thanks, Vince MacNeil in Halifax, Nova Scotia
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Hi there,
Can you tell me where you got the St Mungo burial records from?
I'd like to find burial records for Charles Hanratty d 1926, Catherine Mary Hanratty d 1928 and Catherine Hanratty d 1930. They lived in Forestfield street and Dale Street.
Emma.
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Very interesting reading all the information about St Mungo's Burial ground as I found a relative of mine was buried there in a common grave.She was Margaret Downie died 1834.I think it's very possible that I have more relatives buried there,McMillans and Mushetts.
My McMillans were also weavers.My great grandad James,was a weaver,as was his father,Joseph and his grandad James.The younger James married a lady in Newtownards in Ireland.They lived in Glasgow from 1866-1873/4 but I guess when their eldest daughter died,aged 6 they went to Ireland where they had 6 children more.I imagine their daughter Margaret is buried somewhere in Glasgow as are other McMillans.
I understand that the Carlton Burial ground has graves of many weavers,I know I have a Alexander Mushett and his wife Janet Hamilton buried there but probably without a headstone.
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One of my ancestors has this on death certificate
In the Lair of 'The late Robert Aitken'
What does this mean precisely and would their be any other record?
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One of my ancestors has this on death certificate
In the Lair of 'The late Robert Aitken'
What does this mean precisely and would their be any other record?
First, it tells me that whoever it was died between 1855 and 1860, because before 1855 there was no such thing as a death certificate, and after 1860 the place of burial is not included in the death certificate.
When cemeteries as opposed to kirkyards began to be provided, people would buy a lair. A lair is a grave large enough for one lot of coffins to be buried on top of one another. Sometimes people would buy two or even three lairs together, so their grave would have space for two or three lots of coffins.
So this means that Robert Aitken had bought the right for his family to be buried in a particular lair, and this person was buried in that lair. So it is reasonable to suppose that there was some connection between them.
Also, it means that Robert Aitken was already deceased before this person.
There would normally have been records of burials, which would list the names and dates of burial of everyone buried in the cemetery. I would expect such records, if they have survived, to be in the care of the City of Glasgow council. Start by looking in the catalogue at Glasgow City Archives https://www.glasgowlife.org.uk/libraries/city-archives.
I have in my tree a Robert Aitken, builder, who lived in Glasgow and died on 31 August 1827. He was married twice; first to Agnes Clark and second to Jean Shanks. There were eight children of the first marriage, including a Robert, and six of the second marriage.
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Many thanks for the quick reply.
on a burial record - charge for moving Gravestone 2 shillings Hearse & Carriage - 2 Horses & 2 Ushers - charge 10 shillings
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Glasgow's weavers were expected to hire the trade's mortcloth for burials & there were penalties for not doing so. Usually black velvet which was imported from the Low Countries & used to cover the coffin. In 1774 an agreement was made by the Weavers & the incorporations of the Tailors & the Wrights to amalgamate their stock of mortcloths, the co-partnery to last for 57 years. The practise, which had lasted from the 16th century, died out in the 19th century.
Skoosh.
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Skoosh, that is fascinating!
So there is no point looking for weavers, wrights and tailors in the parish mortcloth accounts.
Could they also use the trades' mortcloths for members of their families, or were these mortcloths only for the actual tradesmen themselves?
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@ Forfarian, the Weavers in 1681 had four mortcloths of different sizes, the charges for hire for each being graded. Weavers were also fined for non-attendance, without good excuse, at the funeral of a brother weaver, from his house to the kirkyard, no half-measures allowed. The mortcloth charges included an officer who accompanied the same & returned it safe & sound.
Just checked the Maltmen who also had their own mortcloths so presumably the Guilds all did.
"The present generation can hardly understand the use of a mortcloth & as little could the present generation have realised that so soon after their time, it would be so completely disused.
The coffin was usually carried to the grave covered by a pall or mortcloth."
Old Glasgow Weavers, 1908.
Bests,
Skoosh.
The use of the mortcloth is better explained in "The Incorporation of Maltmen, Glasgow!" In 1654 one Frederick Hamilton was paid to bring back from Holland as much velvet to make a mortcloth, £36, 16/- a further £46, 4/- was spent on silk for fringes the same & £10 1/- to a Margret Gray for making these plus £1 13/4d to have them fixed, also £2 2/- for two wallets for the same. The Maltmen had a selection of a dozen mortcloths for hire in 1622 for use of departed Maltmen, their aged people, their wives & young children!
The incorporation also hired out its mortcloths to strangers, a profitable sideline.
The keeping & hiring of mortcloths, from time immemorial, was reserved to Kirk Sessions of Parishes but the Trades House, the Merchants House & Incorporations had their rights confirmed by the Supreme Court.
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Very interesting information Skoosh and, like Forfarian, I take my hat off to you.
Someone did mention ages ago that you were a weaver but I assumed that was because you were always weaving from pub to pub! ;D ;D ;D
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@ Lodger, this Saturday will be my first pint of Guinness in Glesga since March so weaving could well be on the cards!
Had a couple in Pitlochry but that disnae count!
Bests,
Skoosh.
The Maltmen also traditionally indulged in horse-racing on the way back from a funeral, with a prize provided by the Guild. No shortage of malt I would think so a good send-off! ;D
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Enjoy your pint, Skoosh!
That adds up to £94 14s 4d for a mortcloth - I take it that is Scots money not sterling? If so it was £8 14s sterling, which (if the Bank of England online inflation calculator is correct) would be the equivalent of about £2,000 today. That's a lot of money!
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Obviously a profitable business, no wonder the Guild officer kept an eye on it. Inspected every year & kept in its chest. "A mortcloth of a good sort thus cost within a little of £100 Scots." The Maltmen sold their mortcloths to the Tailors, Weavers & Wrights for 80 guineas. as they ceased to be profitable to them.
The prize at the post-funerial horse race was a saddle! ;D
Skoosh.