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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: nightnurse51 on Sunday 12 April 09 12:04 BST (UK)
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HI there folks,
Hope you can help me out, but I have hit a brick wall big time.
I have my gt grandfather James hunt birth cert in 1905 to George Hunt and Mary Ann REED aka as Pol or Polly HUnt. reg in Greenwich but lived Baildon st Deptford.
I have a marriage cert for George and Mary Ann 1905 and they lived at Baildon Street. Deptford.in 1905.
George was born on Plumstead Common in a tent (Birth cert 1879) and is one of many siblings to William and Eliza Hunt (nee Smith) William from Bucks and Eliza from Witney Oxford. Theie children were born from Bushey herts to Middlesex and kent (parish records and census)
They were on Mitcham common in 1881 and ended up in Wilford road Croydon. I think I have the right death cert of William in 1913 in Croydon.
Cant find out Eliza death but she was alive in 1901.
George's sister Louisa Hunt married George Gardner in 1889 in Croydon.
Had a child called Noah so I think George's father could be Noah Gardner.
NOw the brick wall!.
ON George and Mary's marriage cert it says Mary's father is a AARON REED
grinder. George's father William is a tin man.
The age on the cert of Mary or POlly would make her birth c 1885/1886.
My cousin and I have her death cert and age made her b c 1884, but death certs are only as good as the informer!.
I dont know her mothers name and have no idea where she comes from, cannot find a birth record in the name of REED REid or REad. She of course could have been reg in her mothers surname. Which I dont know her name.
I did find a marriage record for an Aaron Reed and an Annie Brooks.reg in Greenwich in 1885.
Got the cert yesterday and Aaron was a hawker the same as his father also an Aaron, which was a pleasant surprise, because most of my families were hawkers.
The marriage was 1885 and the age for both was 18.
Found a birth record for an Aaron in West Ashford kent in 1867 which fits with the age of the Aaron on the marriage cert.
My problem is I cannot find this family on any of the census!
I can understand missing from 1 census but not all of them.
The witnessess are a George Deacon and Emma Deacon nee Brooks,found a marriage for these two and Emma is a Brooks. Annies sister?? or even mother.
BUT I cant find any of this family on the census
They seemed to avoid authority like the plague.
First I have to connect Mary Ann to the Aaron and Annie I have.
I dont want to waste any more money on going back until I have evidence that this aaron and Annie are Mary's parents.
The only girl that was my grandfathers sister was called Annie b 1917 so have I assumed too much?
I am convinced that this Aaron is the one I want, Why because all my fathers connections are with travellers, hawkers, gypsies and most of the families intermarried.
BUt this is the first time I have come across the name of Brooks and Deacon. John Brooks, Annies father was a flower hawker.
I have tried finding them in Wales Scotland Channel islands and even the isle of man.
The only possible scenario is that they were Irish.
I found a George Taylor Deacon with an Emma on the 1901 census, now again I brightened up because I have very good connections with the elusive Notting hill Taylors/Coopers.
Has anyone heard of travelling Deacons? or does anyone know any Reeds?
There is a mention of an Uncle Paddy connected to the Reeds. So Patrick came to mind.
I know how good you lot are so you are my last hope.
Regards Carol
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i have a few reeds around the buckingham and middx and hertfordshire areas.some of the reeds married into the hearns and one thomas reed married a vashti penfold.i know mary horner knows something about the reeds and the hunts as they were stopping with her family alot.contact her on the romanyroad message board.i think there is something on there about reeds and hunts aswell.love cathayb
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HI Cathay
Thanks alot Ill do that.
Carolx
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heres abit of what i have found,i dont think it helps much
cathayb 2009.2.26 20:23
i have got a few more in a different area again but then if they were travellers they would have travelled!!!!dont know if these will tie in somewhere.
Name Age Birthplace Relationship Occupation 1901 cencus bertha reed staying with hearns as a grandaughter!!!!
Edmund Hearn 78 Harefield, Middlesex, England Head Living on Own Means
Rebecca Hearn 71 Padcross, Hertfordshire Wife
John Hearn 27 Watford, Hertfordshire Son Boot Maker
Bertha Reed 12 Chesham, Buckinghamshire Granddaughter
1 Lord's Mill Cottages
Name Age Birthplace Relationship Occupation 1891 cencus
Thomas Reed 26 Chesham, Buckinghamshire Head Bootmaker
Dorcas Reed 26 Chesham, Buckinghamshire Wife
Bertha Reed 3 Chesham, Buckinghamshire Daughter
225 Waterside
Name Age Birthplace Relationship Occupation 1901 cencus
Thomas Reed 39 Chesham, Buckinghamshire Head Inn Keeper
Dorcas Reed 38 Stanmore, Middlesex, England Wife
Bertha Reed 14 Chesham, Buckinghamshire Daughter
Ellen Reed 11 Chesham, Buckinghamshire Daughter
Ernest Reed 8 Chesham, Buckinghamshire Son
Edmund Reed 6 Chesham, Buckinghamshire Son
Thomas Fennell 42 Acton, Middlesex, England Boarder Water & Gas Jointer
Walter Brightman 20 Berkhampsted, Hertfordshire Boarder Water & Gas Jointer
Tylers Hill, (5 Bells)
i know mary horner who owns this site says she knows of reeds and marks and here they are with a grandaughter hearn.hearns are marys family line.
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I posted a message at the beginning of the year regarding a Phoebe Dunn/Baker. I was guided to the Reed/Baker family. I have an Aaron Baker marrying an Ellen Reed in Tenterden in 1872. I have a marriage certificate for an Albert Baker who married 1905. He was 23 and a hawker. His father was given as Aaron Baker. Albert went on to have a flower stall in Catford market.
I don't know if this is any help.
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Just managed to find the marriage certificate for Albert Baker ( knew it had to be here somewhere). The address is given as 41 Baildon Street so we must have a match.
Albert was living with Stephen and Rose Welling in 1901. I believe Albert had sisters Rose, Phoebe, Charlotte and Mary Ann. Sometimes the names are given as Baker and sometimes Reed.
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i am sorry my geography is terrible.where is tenterdon and the o ther address you give.
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Sorry, Tenterden is in Kent. Not far from Rye.
I recently got the birth certificate for Phoebe Reed born 1872 in Tenterden.
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Hi
Its very strange you should mention the name Baker as I have just met my grandfathers sister in law Flo who is in her 80's and she mentioned the name Baker!
As I had not heard the name before so I, dismissed it. maybe thinking she was a bit confused.!
But Baildon street sounds very promising.!
Ill look into it.
Thanks for every ones help.!!!
Carol
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Hi again
This family is nearly as good as the Taylor/smith and Coopers!!
I am now wondering if Mary Ann Reed was born under the blanket and took her mothers surname and to save face put any name on her marriage certificate.
Surprisingly enough the name Albert runs through this family like a river.
The address on their marriage cert is 14 Baildon Street.
Regards
Carol
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On the marriage certificate for Rose Baker/Stephen Welling, Rose's father is given as Aaron Baker but one of the witnesses is Aaron Reed.
I believe Ellen Reed married an Aaron Baker in 1872 but she had some children before who seem to have been named Reed but in the census appear as Baker.
I believe the son Aaron sometimes calls himself Baker and sometimes Reed.
Do you have anymore information about the Bakers. I have been years trying to trace Phoebe Baker who appears to have been registered as Phoebe Reed.
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Have no idea about the Bakers at all but with info I have now Ill look it all up.
BUt I have a Moses Welling in my tree born c 1841 who married into the well known Cooper Family. Mazally Cooper.
THe following families all married into one another at some stage or another which was common for Gypsies or travelling families.
Mills, Cooper, Taylor, Penfold, Gardner, HUnt.and of course Smith
Some of The Taylor family in my tree derived from mathias Cooper of Queen Victoria Fame, and Mazally Cooper derives from the Norwood Coopers. She was one of the Daughters of Robert Cooper and Sylvia Williams.
Robert Cooper being the son of Samuel Cooper 1794 -1856 (King of the Gypsies) and Flora.
Robert and Matthias were either cousins or Uncle and nephew. Still figuring that one out!.
The Bakers are a new family to me, but it would explain alot as I cant find any reeds at all.
Could you give me some more of the details of your marriage cert like who was Stephen Welling's father? where the marriage took place and who was the other witness. Year would be helpful. Was it Tenterden?
Witnessess can determine a certain family connection.
What is Phoebe to you? You say you have been trying to trace her for years. In which way forwards or backwards?
My Hunt and Reed families ended up in Deptford area although they lived in surrounding areas.
Carol
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The person I am interested in is David Dunn. He was living with the Wellings in Greenwich at time of 1901 census. He could never trace his birth. Bridget and Dennis Dunn are listed as his siblings.
I believe Phoebe Baker/Reed was his mother and Rose Welling (nee Baker/Reed) his aunt. I could be wrong.
Rosina Baker married Stephen Willing (Welling) om Deptford 1885. Fathers William Willing and Aaron Baker. Witnesses Aaron Reed and Henrietta Knight.
Stephen had been married before.
David Dunn married Edith Loveridge in 1910. Dennis Dunn married Hilda Smith in 1920 (witnesses Sarah Bartlett and William Mannering). Bridget Dunn married William Mannering in 1915 but she refers to her maiden name as Read. (Witnesses Edward and Sarah Bartlett.)
1871 census has an Aaron Read in Stowting and then a Hernhen Baker in the 1881 census. Rose and Phoebe are also mentioned. Mother is Eleanor Baker. Father Aaron/John Baker.
There are births for Phoebe and Rosina Reed in Tenterden, Kent. There is a marriage for Ellen Read to Aaron Baker in 1872 in Tenterden.
Albert Baker was born in 1883 and married 1905. Witnesses Thomas Edward Finch and Charlotte Grange-I think Charlotte is Charlotte Reed, sister to Phoebe and Rose.
I don't know if any of this helps.
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Hi
I found your tree on Ancestry and still studying it.
The Loveridge family if they are the same are a well known gypsy or travelling family.A lot of them ended up in Croydon.
Most of the families involved were flower hawkers, tin man or grinders and of course the common or garden labourers.
I found an Alfred Baker with an Ada and Mary Ann and a William on the 1891 census in High street Holborn and he worked in Convent garden.
I found a marriage cert of which I sent for, for a Aaron Reed and an Annie Brooks
they married in
Could David have been born under his mothers surname?
I noticed he was born in Nottinghill! LOL so were the Taylors! nightmare, the chances ae he may never have been registered. BUT they do like to christen their children.
Dont bother with family search.org or the aka the mormon site they concentrate on old parish records.
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Hi again
I did find a birth for an Aaron Reed in West Ashford kent in 1866 which co insided with the age of the marriage cert to Annie Brooks.
I was going to send for it but I wanted to find the birth cert of mary Ann Reed first to make that connection.
The Aaron you found from Hothfield would come under the registration district of West Ashford, so its looking promising.
Regards Carol
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i dont know if it will help or not.but there were a greaty many reeds around chissec(i cant spell i am afraid)the reeds and the hearns all lived in the area of nottinghill late 1800s and early 1900s.the hearns often used the surname taylor!!!!!!alot of the reeds worked for fullers brewery and a lot a vegatable stalls round the markets.mary horner just told me this.shes not well at the moment but will try and help further soon.the hunts by the way very often went under the name huntley and there were also quite a few bartletts in the area.
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Hi Cathay
Thats interesting. Nottinghill rears its head again.
Albert hunt "married" isabel Smith/Taylor daughter of Atherlia Taylor and Sam Smith.
They ended up in Acton.
They were all known as vegetable and flower hawkers.
The hunts I have manged to track down its the Reeds that are causing me the headache.
But we are folllowing a lead on the Baker name.
The biggest problem is Mary Ann Reed possibly Baker.
I have her marriage cert and death cert but struggling for her birth cert.
Found a Aaron baker with his wife Ada and children Mary Ann and William on the 1881 census.
mary Anns was 4 yrs old so making her birth year 1886/1887 which co incides with her marriage cert in 1905.
Problem we have is we dont know where she was born and where she was registered.
this is The first time I have heard the name Huntley as well.
Carol x
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Correction sorry not the 1881 census but the 1891 census!
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clutching at straws really.just posting anything at all i can find on the reads.!!!
William Giddins was born in Chatham Kent. in 1888 His mother was Kate ( nee Marks, Reed then Giddins ) He had 3 sisters Jane Sarah and Louise and a brother bertie. his first mariage was to my nan Rose Anne Hedges and they had eleven children 2 of whom died.
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and this bit!!!
Jack Read 1899 Sx,Married, to Patience Fuller b1901,--------Parents.William George Read 1866 Isle of Wight Hants,Married Matilda Reen 1859 Sx----------Parents.John Read 1815 Hants,Married 1858, to Mary Richards b1836 Hants,John also Married a Eliza Cull b1818,----------James Read 1778 Hants,Married Mary Ball b1780 Hants
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have you seen the other thread onhere with reed spelt reid?posting it here anyway as i dont know how to do a link!!!!dinlow i am!!!!!
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REID George & Betsey Dover 1881
« on: Sunday 17 May 09 22:00 BST (UK) »
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hello, some help needed, i have this family living in a caravan in charlton near dover,
george reid born 1852,maidstone,
betsey wife born 1852,sittingbourne,
eliza born dau 1873,canterbury,
george son born 1878,sittingbourne,
mary ann dau born 1880,maidstone
phobee sister born 1864,canterbury,
can anyone find a marriage for this couple!
can you find a tie to rossiters!
heres a challenge ive yet to solve, any thoughts, ideas will be much appreciated.
Kusti Bok, Shane.
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Baker, kent
Goldsmith, kent
Perfect, kent
Rattigan, moate eire
Pennell, thanet, Faversham
PaulineJ
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Find me in the Yellow Pages.
Re: REID George & Betsey Dover 1881
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 17 May 09 22:04 BST (UK) »
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"Tie to Rossiters"?
Would that be before or after 1881?
Do you know Betsey's maiden name?
Pauline
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All census look up transcriptions are Crown Copyright
======================================
Brown 1800 Dover -> Woolwich (Kent)
Barnett 1800 Isleworth -> Woolwich
Pannifer 1830 Suffolk -> Deptford Kent
Brierley in Staffordshire(Pre-1875)
Walters in Middlesex(Pre-1875)
Clift,Gould in Devon/Cornwall
http://www.freecycle.org/display.php?region=United%20Kingdom
shaneooo
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Re: REID George & Betsey Dover 1881
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 17 May 09 22:16 BST (UK) »
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Hi pauline,
im hoping that betsey is a rossiter and that phoebe is her sister.
With the help of Nelwild, weve narrowed this down to the phoebe rossiter who married stephen baker in 1889?
Think i found george on censuses without a sister phoebe.
Grabbing at straws i know, but got to start somewhere!
thanks.
shane.
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Baker, kent
Goldsmith, kent
Perfect, kent
Rattigan, moate eire
Pennell, thanet, Faversham
nelwild
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Re: REID George & Betsey Dover 1881
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 17 May 09 22:28 BST (UK) »
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shane,sorry to throw a spanner in the works but george reid born brenchley might not be him,theres a george reed born 1852 brenchley on the 1881,ag lab,married to esther,on the 1901 he has a son luke,the same as george reids fathers name on 1871.cant be sure,but the brenchley ones dont sound like travellers,nel.
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shaneooo
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Re: REID George & Betsey Dover 1881
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 17 May 09 22:36 BST (UK) »
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Cheers Nel,
didnt see that one!
hopefully someone will give us a break!
shane.
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Baker, kent
Goldsmith, kent
Perfect, kent
Rattigan, moate eire
Pennell, thanet, Faversham
casalguidi
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Re: REID George & Betsey Dover 1881
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 21 May 09 16:10 BST (UK) »
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Hi Shane
There is a Phoebe READ/REED/REID born Canterbury about that time - her father was George so perhaps she did have a brother George too which would probably dismiss her from being the Phoebe ROSSITER you was looking for
George REED m Eliza RANSLEY Canterbury 1849 http://freebmd.rootsweb.com
Children Phebe, Celia & Eliza baptised Canterbury 1872 http://www.familysearch.org
1851 - in carts, Doddington, Kent
George READ head mar 22 traveller b.Sandwich
Eliza wife 22 b.Cranbrook
Henry son 7m b.Reading Kent
HO107/1626 folio 518 page 25
....................
1871 - Orlestone, Kent (no birthplaces given for any of them)
George READ head mar 40 hawker
Eliza wife 40
James son 13
Samson son 11
Polly dau 8
Pheobe dau 6
Albert son 3
Celia son (sic) 1
RG10/960 folio 65 page 17
........................
1881
George READ head mar 52 gen lab b.Sandwich kent
Elizabeth wife 52 b.Sandwich Kent
RG11/969 folio 114 page 12
Casalguidi
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My cousin Alan found a 1901 census for Aaron Baker his wife ANNIE this time
not ada. with some children at 14 Baildon Street Deptford.
No sign of Mary ann or Polly as she was known but she would have been old enough to be a servant or something.
Funnily enough we cant find George Hunt either. He could have been in the Boar war
Thanks for the other options, Ill take a gander.
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Hi
Just an update.
Annie Reed nee Brooks died in Sept qtr 1903 and Aaron Baker/Reed married an Isabella Bridgeman nearly 18 years younger than himself
They married in 1904
Found them on the 1911 census at no 4 Baildon St Deptford.
also with them was a daughter aged 13 Ester Baker (who belonged to Annie) and
Isabellas father William Francis Bridgeman.
Although he is listed as baker on census he married Isabella under the name of Reed
Carol
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Hi everyone
Just an update,
I now have mary Ann Reed's birth cert.
She was born as READ 1887 in Mill Lane Deptford to Aaron Reed and Annie brooks.
I also have aarons' birth cert and he was born in Union Workhouse Westwell West Ashford to a Eleanor Anne Reed no father mentioned in Feb 1867.
KSD mentioned that an aaron baker married an Ellen Read.
I think Ellen could be a shortned name for Eleanor???
I might send away for that marriage cert.
Also I found a birth record for a Eleanor a Read in 1845 in west Ashford Kent.
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Hi,
don't know if anyone else has posted this?
1871 census Kent, Stowting.
Travelling woman in road
? (no first name) Read age 26
Charlotte age 6 willsborough Kent
Aaron age 4 Hothfield Kent
Roseannah 2 Peasmarsh Sussex
Below them in 1871 are
Margeret Baker 20 not known
Ellen M Baker 10 months not known
1881 census Crayford Kent
John Baker age 45 maidstone - chair binder
Eleanor (wife) age 39 pedlar - bridgen
Charlotte age 16 Willobury
Hernan age 14 Otfield
Rose 11 peasmarsh
Phoebe 9 Tenterden
Julia 7 Tenterden
If this is the right family it might explain how Aaron Read became Aaron Baker.
Regards,
Jim
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I have a copy of the birth certificate for Phoebe Reed who was born on 5th January 1872. No father given but mother is Eleanor Reed. The address is given as Bridsisle (?) Tenterden.
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I have now got the marriage certificate for Ellen Read who marriage Aaron Baker 1872 at Tenterden. Not much help and really difficult to read. For the ages, it says," Full age both". Fathers are William Read and Benjamin Baker.
It must have been a joint wedding as an Eliza Baker got married on the same day with the same witnesses. She married a John Wilson.
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At last someone else researching our line. Aaron & Eliza are brother and sister, two of the children of Benjamin Baker and Hannah Haffenden or Ovendean, depending on the birth cerificate you look at. Eliza was born on 20 Oct 1851 & Margarer on 24 Jul 1854, both registered in Sellinge Kent.
John Wilson first appears on 1851 census in Mrs Fulbrooks barn in Dallingtion Sx, with Sarah Wilson, his mother, and Richard Reed, his father?. He is said to have been born in Westfield Sx and is in the registers there.
Eliza and John marry in 1872 in Tenterden, but in the 1871 census they state they are married (surname Reed) and have a daughter Lydia and three neices surname Baker with them as well. Boarsisle & Birdsisle are what is now known as St Michaels.
John died 3 Feb 1907 and is buried in St Michaels churchyard as John Wilson Reed, also in the grave are Eliza and their daughter Kate (Bugden)
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That's quite a bit of information to take in at one go and leaves me with lots of questions.
Do you know when Aaron Baker was born?
One of the witnesses on the marriage certificates for Eliza and Aaron is an Adolphous Hurst/Hunt???
Does the name Bridget Reed mean anything to you? On her marriage certificate she gives her father as David Reed, hawker.
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Your rapid reply has sent us to search through our old books etc for the original sources and so far no luck. We have the reference to Aaron somewhere, please bear with us. It is a most wandering route through Sussex and Kent that the family tread and we think we have them all. But some may need a further shake of a branch elsewhere! It is not helped with changes of surnames within a marriage.
We have the witness as Adolphus Nast or Hast. Florid writing is the death of all searches!
Have not dug out a Bridget Reed that we can remember and your response has sent us through notebooks and other papers of thirty years of searching. I unfortunately have no-one to talk to now as they have all passed on.
We do know that the surnames Fuggle, Bugden, Finnis, Tree, Dunster, Link, Millen, Ottaway and Smith are joined into this one family.
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i found this site by total accident and i was amazed my gran was born annie baker she had a sister called rose another called phoebe one called jessie a few more i cant recall at the moment and several brothers they lived in baildon street in deptford when my nan annie married she was only fifteen she didnt use her own surname but called her self annie reed and through the years of my growing up we where always told that if we could find out about aaron reed we would be able to connect all the family can anybody help me find out more of that side of the family they all seem to be hawkers as was annie her self she spent most of her 20s in the kent country side she died in 1967 i have spent 10 years trying to trace this side of the family it is very hard any help would be great
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hi
If you read the previous contributions I think now have clarified that Aaron Reed/Read went through life as Baker but for legal purposes his name was put down as Reed.
My great grandmother Mary Anne Reed was quite a character as all the family were apparently.
Not to be messed with as she would floor you.!
I have a tree on ancestry and some photos of her.
She had epileptic fits and fell onto a fire and burnt her face on one side.
I have not extended her siblings yet. so ill get back to you.
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Hi,
If you don't mind me asking, where and when was your Nan born?
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Hi,
If you don't mind me asking, where and when was your Nan born?
In 1887 My nan or my great grandmother? Mary anne reed was born in mill lane Deptford to aaron Reed and annie Brooks.
Aaron reed / read was born to Aaron baker and Eleanor Read in 1867 in Hothfield Kent/
Aaron jnr was known as Aaron baker most of his life except for official papers.
Aaron jnr had two siblings Charlotte Reed b 1865 and Julia Baker b Tenterden/1874 who married a Patrick Donovan. in Walworth 1895.
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Hi everyone
Hope it is ok if I jump in here with some of my queries about my greats.
Stephen Welling b1860 who later married Rose Baker was once married to Ann Taylor b1858. They married in Sept 1979 but she died in 1884 leaving a baby Eliza b1880 and possibly a William.
Stephen's father was William Welling - (Tinman) and mother Eliza Field. I cannot get any futher info on the Wellings. Any Help would be great.
Ann Taylor's father was William Taylor - Hawker again I cannot find the families.
But I notice these names cropping up on here
ps Stephen and Anns witnesses were William Couch and George reuben Bird.
Thanks
Chris
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Hi
I suspect your George Rueban Bird ended up from the Mitcham/ Croydon area. as do some of the Wellings. I have some transcriptions some where in a notebook taken from the Surrey Archives in Woking, of St Saviours church of marriages, and baptisms of travellers, hawkers .also in Mitcham
I have found my notes a Reuban Bird on Oct 29 1872 married an Abigail Horn. He was a basket maker. their fathers were Thomas Bird a brazier and James Horn Basket maker. witnessess are Thomas Bird and Laura Wellman.
in August 1872 a Buckingham Bird house decorator from IPSWICH married a Grace Sarah Mills from Mitcham her father being William Mills a relative.
Thomas Bird was the "husband of Susannah (Suke) Mills who was related to Aaron Mills another relative.
also a Samuel Willings(Wellings was christened to a Moses Wellings and Mosella (MIcella )15thaug 1880 they lived in 17 Wilford Road.
So if we go back your Stephen may well be related to Moses Wellings watch this space. its nearly 3 in the morning and I am tired and Ill get back to you.
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Hi I don't know if this helps but I have a Maria Deacon in my tree who came over from Fermoy Cork she married Jacob Brooks 1883. they are on 1891 census at tilbury . I don't know if that helps. I do also have an Annie Brooks on my tree (as Brooks is my Tree ) 1872-1915 but don't think this is your Annie. If u think this maybe anything to do with your family let me know.
Regards
caroline
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Hi Carol
Ill have to check my info and let you know
Carol
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Hi sorry I have not posted recently but had problems logging back in. Thanks for your post. Have you had any luck with the Wellings?
Thanks
Chris