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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Suffolk => Topic started by: Sandy H on Wednesday 08 April 09 01:11 BST (UK)
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There is a family story about the girl in this drawing. There is no name on the original, so I don't really know who she is. I seem to remember my gran saying that her name was Elizabeth. The story goes that she was accidentally shot in the head with her father's gun by her fiance at the age of 18 yrs. old
I have an Elizabeth Kindred in that family line who was born in 1811 and died in 1829 in Framlingham, Suffolk, Eng. The fact that it is a drawing and not a photo suggests that it might have been made before photography existed, which would make her a good candidate.
Free BMD records only go back to 1837. I understand that Parish Records exist before 1837. I do have family bible records that say that they attended St. Michael's in Framlingham. Does anyone know if parish records are available online? I live in the USA and won't be visiting Suffolk anytime soon. :(
Or, if anyone knows how I could find out what newspapers existed at that time and place and if newspaper records would be accessible online.
If she is Elizabeth Kindred and if she was shot in the head, it must have been a sensational story for a small town. Hopefully, there is a record of it.
Any suggestions or help would be greatly appreciated! ;)
Sandy H
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Hi Sandy H
I found an entry in a Google Book, re: Eliza KINDRED died Framlingham on 14 Jan 1829 age 17, dau; of Edmund and Lucy - is this the one you mean? Her (sister?), Lucy died age 7 months, 4 days later on 18 Jan 1829. Same headstone.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/060q/
This tree places Lucy as a sister to Eliza
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/m/u/t/Jerry-Mutz-UT/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0021.html
This message wonders if Lucy is in fact the illigitimate child of Eliza.
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/SUFFOLK/2001-03/0985140224
Seeing the deaths of Eliza and baby Lucy so close together, one does wonder if Eliza died from complications following childbirth and the ailing baby died soon after her mother.
Cheers
AMBLY
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Hi Ambly :)
Fascinating!! Yes, you do have the right family. I'm amazed at what you found! Thank you so much!
Could be several possibilities.
1. It was winter and Eliza & her sister, Lucy, caught some illness and died a
few days apart.
2. Eliza was accidentally shot in the head and a few days later her baby sister
happened to die, so the parents buried them together. I have 2 sisters who
share a grave. They died 4 yrs apart.
3. 7 months after Lucy's birth seems a bit late for complications following
childbirth. Also, they had a brother born in 1826, so their mother Lucy was
still young enough to have children.
4. Baby Lucy was Eliza's child and her fiance did not want to marry her, so he
"accidentally" shot her! The gun was her father's gun and it was hung above
the fireplace. He, the fiance, reached up to get it down & the gun went off.
5. Eliza is not the person in the drawing who was shot.
I have 2 other potential girls from this family who died young. I thought it might be Eliza Kindred because she was 18 yrs old like the story.
Lucy Ann Kindred b. 17 Nov 1847 d. Oct 2, 1870 Framlingham, SFK.
Elizabeth Harriet Suckling b. 1853 d. Apr/May/Jun 1876 Steeple Bumpstead, SFK
Essex. Registration district Risbridge, Cambridgeshire.
I have not sent away for death certificates for these two, because I thought I would search out Eliza/Elizabeth Kindred first.
Thanks again for helping me! ;)
Sandy H
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Hi Sandy H
An equally facinating story you have to try and prove ;D
I did notice that the mother was certainley still young enough to be the mother of baby Lucy, and that Lucy wasn't born after a large gap follwoing the previous child - could be any one of the 5
I wonder, even though it's a drawing and not a photograph, if it might be worth placing it on the Photograph & Restoration Board here at Rootschat, and asking if there is anything about the drawing which might be able to date it.... the hair-style (fringe, tied back, flowers), what can be seen of the attire (high lace collar, open neck?), or even if the style of drawing can be narrowed to a period?
Cheers
AMBLY
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The Kindred family were rather like the Bridges' in Framlingham - quite a few of them.
Framlingham St Michael and All Angels PRs are available in transcript from SFHS on CD-rom.
Have you seen the church at www.suffolkchurches.co.uk
There were several independent churches in the town too.
I have copies (my own notes) of the PRs from 1560-1900
I found the following amongst the burials for 1829
Eliza Kindred buried 20th January age 17 years
Lucy Kindred buried 20th January age 7 months
Also
'An epitaph found in Framlingham Churchyard'
Mary, wife of Edmund Kindred, 6th September 1801 age 46 years
Dear husband now my life is past
My love to you so long did last
Therefore for me no sorrow make
But love my Children for my sake
This is taken from Lambert's Almanac for 1874
(unfortunately I do not have one for 1829)
The newspaper to search would be
The Framlingham Weekly News*, originals of which are available in the museum for Framlingham, The Lanman Museum which is housed within Framlingham Castle.
However, I am sure my husband has been able to access them on film - possibly at the Ipswich branch of the Suffolk Record Office (will check with him on his return from the office this evening).
When writing about the town he is meticulous with his research before publishing articles or books.
He has just had four articles in the Framlingham and District Historical and Preservation Society Newsletter about the various mills and millers in Framlingham. There are notes on Edmund Kindred 1788-1857 who was a miller in the town, at Victoria Mill. Is he one of your line?
I am in touch with a Kindred researcher from Canada and my husband has always known the Kindred's who farm at Parham, a village next to Fram - so there are still Kindred family in the area.
Pat ...
* I will check the dates of publication with John
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Ambly & Pat :)
I like your idea Ambly, about posting the pic on the photo board to possibly date it.
Thank you Pat for your input about my Kindreds. I have seen the Suffolk Churches website. I wish my mum had a computer. I know that she would really enjoy seeing Framlingham & St.Michael's online. (She lives 1000 m away).
You definitely have the right family. They were millers and owned the Victoria Mill. Edmund or his son, Frederick went bankrupt and lost the mill. A John Kindred (Edmund's oldest son?) went to debtor's prison. My GGran was a genealogist and Grandpa Kindred said they spent a lot of holidays in Framlingham when he was a little boy so she could research. Alas, we only have a few bits of her notes. Some of which refer to the Victoria Mill & the bankruptcy. Frederick was her father-in law. Would it be possible to get copies of your husband's articles that you mention?
How wonderful to know that there may be newspaper records from that time period! Surely she would have made the newspaper, especially if she was shot!
The Kindred researcher in Canada, is that David Kindred? I've seen a few of his postings online.
Also Pat, I think on other postings you mention a David Kindred, a photographer in Ipswich. Do you know if he does genealogy or does he just have old photos of Suffolk? My Great Grandparents Frederick Kindred & Clara Suckling both attended a "drapers" school in Ipswich. Fred eventually became the "Head Master" of the school and when they were first married I believe they had a draper's and gentlemen's outfitter shop in Ipswich ca 1885. I don't know the name of the shop, though.
I am new to Rootschat and I love it!! In just a few days I have received so much help with my Kindred family.
Again, thank you both so much! ;)
Sandy H
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From Google book search..
Kindred, Eliza, daughter of Edmund and Lucy, 14th Jan. 1829, 1?
years ; and Lucy, 18th Jan. 1829, 7 months*
Ere sin could blight or sorrow fade,
Death came with friendly care;
The op'ning buds to heav'n convey'd,
And bade them blossom there.
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Thank you Woody! :D
Downloaded the book. It's great and all about Framlingham.
Cheers
Sandy H
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Hello again,
Yes, I know both Davids :D
David Kindred in Ipswich has a vast collection of Suffolk photographs and has produced several books of photographic memories - we have several of them.
David Kindred 'in Cda' is a sort of distant cousin (as far as we can make out from our Bridges/Kindred connections. Certainly Ada nee Kindred Frost has a connection through her late husband Royston to our Fruer Bridges who married Louisa Frost. But there is an Elizabeth Kindred who married a Bridges boy too).
I think that the Framlingham Weekly News began later than 1819. :(
I will check with John though.
Will ask about sending you the relevant article about the various members of the Kindred family and Victoria Mill in Fram.
Visiting family in Fram on Saturday :D
~~~~~
Useful URLs
David's web site http://www.kindred-spirit.co.uk/
www.oldpond.com/acatalog/david_kindred.htm photo and narrative
www.poppyland.co.uk for John's last book on Fram
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Hi Woody,
Which book did you find with that reference please?
Just curious, we may well have it, but if we haven't it will have to go on our wish list :D
Pat ...
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Drapers School?
Could it be Footman Pretty, there has been a recent thread on the apprentices who lived above the store in Ipswich.
Pat ...
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Hello again,
I have looked on Foxearth's web site
http://www.foxearth.org.uk/newspapers.html
and there is nothing there.
Husband suggested looking in Ipswich Journal and the Bury and Norwich Post.
He also confirmed that the Framlingham Weekly News was not printing at that time (1819).
As you have a date it might be worth asking for a look up from the newspapers on film at the SRO in Ipswich. John has used them and they can be a pain if you are trawling through, but with a date should not be so arduous a task.
I have PMd you to sort out sending the mills articles to you, which appeared in four installments of the FDLHPSociety newsletter.
Night Night,
Pat ...
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Hi Woody, found the book, it's Green's Framlingham and yes, we do have a copy ;D
Pat ...
off to bed now ::)
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Hi Ambly :)
Fascinating!! Yes, you do have the right family. I'm amazed at what you found! Thank you so much!
Could be several possibilities.
1. It was winter and Eliza & her sister, Lucy, caught some illness and died a
few days apart.
2. Eliza was accidentally shot in the head and a few days later her baby sister
happened to die, so the parents buried them together. I have 2 sisters who
share a grave. They died 4 yrs apart.
3. 7 months after Lucy's birth seems a bit late for complications following
childbirth. Also, they had a brother born in 1826, so their mother Lucy was
still young enough to have children.
4. Baby Lucy was Eliza's child and her fiance did not want to marry her, so he
"accidentally" shot her! The gun was her father's gun and it was hung above
the fireplace. He, the fiance, reached up to get it down & the gun went off.
5. Eliza is not the person in the drawing who was shot.
I have 2 other potential girls from this family who died young. I thought it might be Eliza Kindred because she was 18 yrs old like the story.
Lucy Ann Kindred b. 17 Nov 1847 d. Oct 2, 1870 Framlingham, SFK.
Elizabeth Harriet Suckling b. 1853 d. Apr/May/Jun 1876 Steeple Bumpstead, SFK
Essex. Registration district Risbridge, Cambridgeshire.
I have not sent away for death certificates for these two, because I thought I would search out Eliza/Elizabeth Kindred first.
Thanks again for helping me! ;)
Sandy H
There is another possibility. Girls who became pregnant were often hidden away as soon it was obvious they were pregnant, and when the baby was born it would be brought up by its grandparents as their child. If the girl died either in childbirth or following complications from it, some excuse would have to be found for the disappearance of the daughter. Being shot in the head is a possible excuse.
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Hello,
Eliza Kindred died 14 Jan 1829 & was buried on 18 Jan 1829, so good news Pat, it might just be in the Framlingham Weekly News, especially if they published obits. I mean, even if she wasn't shot. I can check the other news papers, if she's not in the Fram Wkly news.
I have also searched Foxearth to no avail. I love that site! Thanks for looking for me.
The book mentioned was a "Google" book. They are digital copies of old books and free to download. I have several. They are a great find, because they are usually written 100+ yrs ago with a lot of good family history info. I see that you discovered that you have an actual hard copy of the book!
After I read your post about Draper's School, I found the thread about the apprentices and enjoyed it very much! I have done a little digging and found the 1871 Census for Frederick Kindred. He was in a draper's school at the age of 18. It was in Woodbridge, SFK. The only address said "Thoroughfare". All the students were listed as "draper's assistants.
The 1881 Census had Frederick and his future wife, Clara Suckling both listed as "draper's assistants", in fact, everyone except the poor domestic and the dog were listed as draper's assistants! Probably about 30 or 40 people. Fred was not the Head Master as I thought. This school was in Ipswich at Suffolk House on Tavern St.. When I looked at David Kindred's photos of Ipswich, I realized that Ipswich looked like a pretty good sized place, even back then. How many draper's schools do you think existed in Ipswich in the late 1800's?
Seems like it must have been all the rage to get away from Mum & Dad and live in a house full of young people! hmmmm.....just learning a trade.
I have a photo somewhere of Suffolk House. I thought it was the home of Fred and Clara! And I wasn't sure if it was in Ipswich or Haverhill. It's not a good photo, but I would say that it was taken in the 1960's, so there is a good chance that it is still there. The 1881 Cen calls it Suffolk House, so I don't think it is the same school as Footman Pretty.
It is late at night here, so I must go to bed!
Pat, enjoy your visit with your family in Framlingham! So odd. I have heard about Framlingham my whole life, I have pictures of the castle, but I have never been there. And now I know someone who is going there this weekend to visit family! How fun! The world is getting smaller!!
Night Night or Good Morning to You All!!
Sandy 8)
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Hi Nick,
I just read your post. What a chilling thought!! :o
....Must go to bed, its late here.
Enjoy your day! :D
Sandy
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In haste, busy day today ::)
My husband and I and a few other folk are involved in setting up a Framlingham Photographic Archive which will be on-line later this year.
We are collating all the photographs and many letterheads of Framlingham at the moment. We would like to have something similar to that produced by friends in Sudbury www.sudburysuffolk.co.uk/photoarchive/
Pat ...
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Nice website, I'll be looking forward to seeing yours when you get it on-line!
I have a busy day ahead, too, and must peel myself away from Rootschat!!
Have Fun this weekend!
Sandy ;)
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Hi Sandy H
Regarding Frederick Kindred and Clara Suckling, they might have been drapers assistants at Frederick Corders, a firm of silk mercers and drapers, of Tavern Street, Ipswich. The shop, which at one time was extensive, but which gradually got smaller during the 1970s until it finally closed, was on the corner of Tavern Street and Tower Street.
On another point of interest, there is a Chaucer connection here for (if I remember the story correctly) Chaucer's uncle kept a tavern here on the corner of Tavern Street and Tower Street which was then known as the Hen Market,and it is said that Geoffrey Chaucer spent part of his childhood here.
There was also another fairly large drapery store in Westgate Street, more or less opposite to Corders, and I can't remember the name of it. This is the alternative site for Suffolk House. If this senior moment passes, I'll post again, but perhaps one of the other contributors will know the one I mean!
Greensleeves
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Right, senior moment has passed, and I now have the definitive answer to the drapers - in 1893, at any rate:
Frederick Fish & Son, Merchant Drapers & House Furnishers, Suffolk House, Tavern Street, Ipswich.
So in effect you can ignore everything I said previously!
Greensleeves
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Hello Greensleeves!
Interesting! I checked the 1881 Census for Ipswich and the address for the draper's school is Suffolk House, Tavern St. The manager is listed as a Charles Moss.
Fred and Clara married in 1882. I thought that they had a draper's store in Ipswich, but I am not positive about that. I do know that they had a Draper's and Grocer's store in Haverhill by 1891.
It sounds like you have the right place, but by 1893 under new owners or managers. Unless there could be more than one Suffolk House in Ipswich, which doesn't seem possible.
It would seem that draper's schools were a regular "cottage industry" in Ipswich and Suffolk. I noticed on the 1891 Census for Haverhill, that Fred had several "draper's assistants" including his younger brother, Arthur. He also had one "grocer's apprentice".
How very interesting! Thank you for your help!!
Sandy ;)
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Hello Greensleeves,
Corders eh?
Bought our first bed from there and two Parker Knoll arm chairs with money given to us when we married.
That bed went many years ago, but the two chairs are in the conservatory nowadays, and are still very comfortable ;D
It was one of my late mother in laws favourite shops.
Sandy,
the Suffolk Local History Council office in Ipswich is in a modern two storey building and is really home to Suffolk Acre. They kindly let us rent an office from them. And yes, you will find many 'Suffolk House' buildings throughout the county.
We will be home over the holiday weekend and will send the articles in the next day or so to you home email addie.
Off to bed, night night
Pat ...
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Hi Sandy
Yes, I saw Frederick and Clare at Suffolk House in the 1881 census, and at Haverhill in 1891. Isn't it frustrating trying to find our what they were doing in between? There was another thread recently which Suffolkmawther and I were contributing to, which involved a Drapers Assistant at Westgate Street, Ipswich in 1891, which was also fascinating, albeit that her trail ran cold at Newark and so far we haven't established what happened to her.
Your family story sounds so interesting, and full of excitement. My mother's branch of my Suffolk family seemed to lurk around Rattlesden/Brettenham for generations (1540 onwards); for all I know, many of them might still be there!
Don't forget to let us know when you find the answer to the untimely demise of Elizabeth.
Hi Pat
Nice to speak to you again. I remember when I was a child that Corders had a fascinating front window, which allowed you to pass behind it to get into the shop. It always livened up shopping expeditions if we went to Corders because it meant we could play in this glass labyrynth!
Greensleeves
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Dear Pat & Greensleeves,
Sorry for the delay in answering. I've been having computer problems.
Thank you both so much for your input!
I will put a post on the Suffolk look-ups for Eliza and Lucy, Jan. 1829 in Framlingham Weekly News or whatever Suffolk newspapers that might be available on film at the SRO in Ipswich. I will let you know if and when I find out how Eliza died.
My mother is very much interested in all of this. I mentioned Ipswich and she said that my American father was stationed in Ipswich during WWII when she met him! They met in London in Hyde Park.
Thanks again for your kind help! :D
Sandy
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Here's another topic about the same family. I have a garment given to me by my mum. I never knew quite what it was, so I put a post on rootschat and had an interesting journey finding out what it really was used for.
Here's the link:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=372119.new;topicseen#new
Greensleeves, love your animal art! I have a few drawings of large cats and other animals that I've made......not as good as yours! ;)
Cheers
Sandy
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Whilst checking Framlingham baptisms for another Rootschatter, I came across the following
30th July 1815
John age 6, Eliza age 4, Frederick baptised
Children of Edmund and Lucy Kindred (nee Wright)
Occupation Miller
24th August 1828
Lucy Agnes daughter of Edmund and Lucy Kindred (nee Wright)
Occupation Miller
Presumably Frederick was a baby at the baptism?
Pat …
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Hi Pat!
Yes, Frederick was a baby in July 1815. He was born 11 Nov 1814 and his mother was Lucy Wright.
If Lucy Kindred was 7 months old when she died in Jan 1829, she must have been born in June and baptized shortly after in August.
Thank you for passing that information on to me!
Cheers ;)
Sandy
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Sandy,
Edmund Kindred was miller at "Kindred's Mill" in 1818 until c1830, with John Kindred miller in 1839. John Escaped death when the mill collapsed while being raised in 1842. Mill was tenanted by the Kindred's but owned by others.
Victoria Mill was built in 1843 by Whitmore & Binyon (local millwrights) and was being worked by John Kindred. Most likely she was built oin site of the collapsed mill. Between 1847 & 55 Frederick Kindred took over (Ipswich Journal, 1842/09/24) ; John Kindred found his self in jail in 1853 for debt (London Gazette, 1853/05/17).
Frederick Kindred had died by 1863, having become bankrupt himself around 1857(London Gazette, 1857/01/27).
After this date no further Kindreds are recorded as millers in Fram.
Hope this helps with your research,
Windy Miller.
PS Anything you can add would be great!
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Sandy,
Oops! Got my referances mixed up...
should have read;
"John escaped death when the mill collapsed while being raised in 1842 (Ipswich Journal, 1842/09/24)."
Windy Miller
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Sandy,
A Samuel Kindred of Framlingham , a labourer, was committed to the Woodbridge Bridewell for obtaining grocery goods from a Susannah Freeman on false pretences in December 1828 according to the Ipswich Journal.
Have a look at 19th century British Newspapers from Gale Databases available from Lancashire Libraries, just join up online and start searching. Great fun, but no mention of anything about the name Kindred in 1829.
Tom
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http://www.pope-genealogy.me.uk/framcemphoto.htm
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I dunno,who am I supposed to be looking at?
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John Pope lives in a village near to Framlingham and he has been taking photographs of various headstones in churchyards.
The link that Woody32 has given is of John Pope's photos of Framlingham Cemetery in the older part of the cemetery (there is also a non-conformist area where we have found a few of ours who were at one time Congregationalist).
If you scroll down Sandy, you can find the headstones for Edmund and Frederick and a couple of other Kindred.
Did I mention that John called in on Auntie Ada (nee Kindred) Frost a couple of weeks ago. She is still quite sprightly of mind although now in her 90s. It is good to know she is well.
Pat ...
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Thanks Pat..i should of put what it was :)
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No problem, :D thank you for remembering that link - I had forgotten about John's work, which he is enjoying very much and it is a great help to researchers.
Although as the enquiry is about Fram and the website had photos of Fram cemetery - it was not too difficult to work out what was going on 8)
Pat ...
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Hello,
May I interupt this thread to say thank you for high lighting this web sight by John Pope. http://www.pope-genealogy.me.uk/framcemphoto.htm
I have found lots of info on my Barthrop's burials in Parham- most helpful! I looked for a contact number on the web site to thank him for it - but couldn't see one - so hope John realizes what a great help he is!
Mary.
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Hello Mary,
I will PM you John Pope's email address ;D
He will be pleased to hear from you.
Home again after a busy day at Suffolk Local History Council, finally caught up with all my filing ::)
Pat ...
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Thanks for that Pat, that will be good. I'll contact him with my thanks.
Nice to 'catch up' occasionally!!
Mary
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Hello,
I'm glad that someone is "caught up"! I'm lagging way behind and that's why it has taken me so long to reply!
Thank you, Pat and Woody for the info about "Pope's" website. I found it a few months back and I was also very pleased to find many of my Kindreds and Framlingham relatives there! Thank you Mr. Pope! Beautiful site!
Sandy :)
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Hello, this post is very old and so is this site (no offence) so I’m not expecting a reply. I was about three months ago when me and my friend were out on our way to Co-op we decided to take a shortcut, through the grave yard. It was dark about 8 o’clock. We stopped for a moment to take a picture to show our other friends where we were. As soon as we got the phone out something was wrong, we both felt uneasy and slightly sick. We both ran out the graveyard. I could I swore I saw someone and maybe it was just fear but I started doing research. I live in Framlingham, Suffolk, England. The grave yard we were in was also there not the church graveyard though. This story came to my attention when looking for woman who had died in Framlingham in the 1800s (me and my friend agreed most ghosts are from the 1800s) I think her grave may be in that grave yard. It’s most likely the original person who posted the picture and story won’t see this but I just thought I’d share this.
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Hi Chris,
Sandy H was last online at the end of 2020, he will now be notified of your reply by email notification.
Regards
Sarah
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ChrisFox Happy to help, I too live in Framlingham. I have a lot of Fram information :-)
SM
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Hi thank you both for replying!!
This is the link to my project on the topic
https://docs.google.com/document/d/11VP81J2yU7XxpZ3BGaJE9hXrkije_cbykPHOwFvFZ74/edit
I have quoted some people by the way and tomorrow I’m going to down the graveyard to see if I can find a grave. This is actually part of my DofE now as a project, (history of fram) so that’s pretty cool!
-Chris
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Hi Chris,
I have read through your document and can answer a few of your queries and questions.
If you post another comment, I will be able to contact you via the private messaging system, and send my email addie to you.
Our grandson is currently doing his DofE too :-)
SM
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I should add to this thread that my husband did work with the British Newspaper Library to have the Framlingham Weekly News put online and it is indeed available via their website and via Find My Past.
SM
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Hello sorry for being inactive, I have been doing test revision! My DofE is going well, if your grandsons doing DofE I may know him :). I will start my research again next week after exams are over, please feel free to email me any information you think would be useful, I would be very great full. Thanks a lot !!!
-chris
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Good luck with your exams,
I will send you a personal message so that you can contact me directly when you have more time.
SM