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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: Duffy11 on Tuesday 07 April 09 18:18 BST (UK)
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Hi Everyone,
Wondering if anyone can be of help, I've at last got my deceased father's adoption papers from court last week and doing this for a medical reason.
I've come across that my father's biological name is William Joseph Robb and his mother's name is Margaret Robb, to find out Margaret Robb, I have no age, or any idea of who she is apart that on the documents, it's stated that she worked as a Laundry worker and resided at Dalbeth's girl school which is known for Good Shepherds on London Road. I've spoken to Edinburgh's register and they cannot help without a year of birth, age or such as that.. I cannot find anything without that and said to speak to a professional genecologist who'd help but won't they cost money? Thought I'd try all forums first to see if anyone can help.
Is there anyone out there that would know any women who went there, resided there or other connections that I can speak with to be able to find Margaret Robb, and of her whereabouts to help this is 1942 which is the year my father was given up for adoption.
Lillias
Any help would be appreciated.
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You could order his birth certificate to see if it gives any other information
1942 ROBB WILLIAM JOSEPH Male at SPRINGBURN GLASGOW/LANARK
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Hi,
I have a copy of this from the court, but no detail of his mother's age to get her birth certificate. I need some sort of a year she was born and whereabouts. Because if she was employed and resided at Dalbeth's Girl school just off from Tollcross, and my dad was born in springburn - quite a distance to get to either. So it's not really easy to narrow down the idea of how old she would be etc. So more or less hoping someone out there would know..
lil
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Who registered the birth?
Whereabouts in Springburn was he born?
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Assuming she was a teenager when she gave birth, there is 1 possible candidate going by the middle name of your father
1927 ROBB MARGARET JOSEPH Female at PLANTATION GLASGOW/LANARK
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It's a possibility! Need to order the certificate though want to make sure if it is her, is a coincidence that middle name she has, why jospeh I wonder?
The place my dad was born was in Stobhill Hospital, Springburn.
Very tricky to find out where she is, who she is and if it is her for definate.
lil
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Hi Lil, I suspect that, though she was down as a Launderess on the adoption papers, she was actually a pupil(?) at this school, working for her keep till the baby was born, and possibly a few weeks after.
I would suggest contacting the Mitchell Library and ask if they have admission records for this school, which I suspect she only entered when her pregnancy could no longer be hidden.
http://www.glasgow.gov.uk/en/Residents/Library_Services/The_Mitchell/Archives/schoolarchives.htm
The admission records may have her previous/home address.
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Who registered the birth?
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Anyone know if Catholic babies given up for adoption would be baptised before or after adoption. i.e. In those days most Catholic babies were Baptised within the first couple of weeks, so what age were babies given up for adoption? Six weeks seems to ring a bell with me, but I could well be mistaken.
Therfore, I wonder if there is a chance there could be a baptismal record for baby pre adoption? Possibly at church Dalbeth girls school used?
Just realised, a baptismal record probably wouldn't give mothers home address, or would it? Back to drawing board.
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The registrar registered the birth as it seems because the whole birth cert is all in same writing, definately not Margaret Robb.
I've ordered his mother's possible birth certificate with Margaret Joseph Robb, hopefully will get an outcome.
Its all a bit tricky at this point as at this point I'm going no where unless mitchell library will have something, will have to arrange a trip down to Glasgow and hope it wont be a waste of time. :S
lil
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Does it say who the informant was on the BC?
What adoption society dealt with the adoption?
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There was no particular Adoption agency as only shows that Alexander Stone who was an solicitor at 49 Bath Street in Glasgow - the petitioners agent if that helps?
The signiture of the registrar part- was a stamp named John Little who was an assistant. Acted from the register book of births for the district of springburn. And the part who signed the certificate usually the mother, obviously wasn't her signature because the rest of the document was all the same writing. Not sure what that means either.
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Update;
No luck at Mitchell Library, Was there from 10 am right through till 4pm this afternoon. Couldn't find anything that was any help at all. Also that the Medical Archives had no record of her either of where my dad was supposidly born. The Mitchell Library also did say that some of the stuff were thrown out years ago to make more room.. so some missing history! But wondering if the National Archives in Edinburgh will have something that will help.
Where should I go from this as seems really stuck?
Lil
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How long after the birth was he adopted?
Have you checked for a baptismal record?
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Hi Lil
I've been following your thread hoping you would be able to break through. Such a shame that nothing came from your visit to the Mitchell Library today.
I do think you might need some specialist advice, not though the services of a genealogist necessarily. Tracing adoptions is incredibly difficult as you are finding and you need to speak to people who specialise in this area. You also need someone who understands how Catholic adoptions were arranged at that time and who are in a position to guide you to where records may be found given the information you have found to date.
It sounds like you have already gone through the due process to obtain a court order to be able to access your father's adoption papers. As you can see from the birth certificate, as with all illegitimate births, there is little information regarding the mother. You do however have additional information regarding where the mother was living at the time of the birth which could help.
Also, with the issue of the middle name of your father, Sancti has found an interesting birth entry on the registers which I believe you have ordered. There is also a possible death showing on Scotlands People for a Margaret J. Robb, other surname Borthwick, born 1927, who died in Glasgow in 1968 which might connect to this Margaret.
The problem you are going to have is how you connect this to your father. There may be something from this Margaret's parents from her birth certificate that might provide some clues....but you are still left with the big questions and how you connect this all back to your father.
There is a useful guide at the National Archives www.nas.gov.uk/guides/adoptions.asp Now, you have already obtained your father's adoption papers, but there are some helpful contact details to Associations and groups that may be able to help you further. There may be more that you can contact perhaps.
Fingers crossed for you.
Monica :)
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Lil
One other important thing to remember is that Catholic records are not generally available (therefore held in the archives at the Mitchell Library). You could also try contacting:
The Arch Diocese of Glasgow.
196 Clyde Street
Glasgow
G1 4JY
Tel: 0141 226 5898
Fax: 0141 225 2600
www.rcag.org.uk
Monica
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Hi, See if this site for Stobhill records would be of use to use. There is a contact e-mail address at bottom of page.
http://www.archives.gla.ac.uk/gghb/collects/hb50.html
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Hi Lil,
I had an interesting and informative conversation with a very elderly lady not that long ago whilst at Dalbeth Cemetery where she was giving me a history lesson about Dalbeth Convent and School which is where your refering.
She mentioned that the Sisters ran a Magdalene Laundry for young mothers etc and most of the children born were then adopted out.
Like the graveyard the convant and school came under the control of the Archdiocese of Glasgow so there are two places I would suggest you could try if you haven't already.
1st - The Archavist at The Archdiocese of Glasgow - 196 Clyde Street Glasgow
G1 4JY Tel: 0141 226 5898.
2nd - The records may be at Edinburgh as I believe they are in the process of digitising them. The contact for there is Andrew Nicol Columba House, 16 Drummond Place, Edinburgh EH3 6PL. Tel Number 0131 556 3661. (Be worth speaking to him anyway as he is very helpful)
Reference is made to the Dalbeth Laundry on -
http://www.barrhead-scotland.com/Culture/Writing/barrhead_its_braw.asp
Gerry
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Hi Lil
Been giving your problem a little bit more thought today.
From what you have said, you are likely to be trying to research a potential genetic illness that may be linked to your father's biological family. Once you have a potential family for mother Margaret, you are likely to have to view a number of death certificates to try and establish a link to what you are trying to find out.
In the period that you are researching, this can be an expensive and long exercise if you have to order a number of possible certificates. Order fee is currently £10 and wait time due to current demand is running at anywhere between 4-6 weeks from what I understand.
You appear to be based in Scotland (I think from your recent visit to Glasgow). There are a number of ways that you can view a large number of BMD certificates outside the on-line cut off for images on Scotlands People. Depending on which is closer to you, you could visit either New Register House in Edinburgh or Park Circus in Glasgow. They have special facilities to view and let you transcribe details from multiple certificates on any one visit. The other post I found interesting from Jim the other day which covers other options for doing the same thing is here www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,369601.0.html
Monica :)
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It will be even harder to trace if the potential genetic illness came from the paternal side of the family.
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More great advise as always Monica.
Personally I would opt for the SP Centre in Edinburgh as its £10 for the full day compared to £14 for Park Circus (So thats £4 towards the train fare), Its directly across the road from Waverly Station so easier to get to, and most of the records are there so they will get you any which are hard to read on the screen.
They also run a free 2 hour taster sessions throughout the day for anyone who hasn't been before to assist in how and what you can find.
Although there are plenty of seats I would advise phoning and booking a seat in advance. I've been several times over the past month and found the staff very helpful.
Oh and last point............. There's also a cafe for that well earned cuppa coffee.
More details can be found at - http://scotlandspeoplehub.gov.uk/
Gerry
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Another line of enquiry could be St Margarets Adoption Society in Glasgow.
They won't have handled your fathers adoption as they didn't come into being until the 1950's however they may be able to give you some good advise of what records may still exist from the adoption and how to trace it.
http://www.stmargaretsadoption.org.uk/
Gerry
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You're right Sancti, hadn't thought of the paternal side for young William :'(
That's great additional info Gerry :) Hopefully of one of these centres will be close to you Lil.
Monica
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Hi Lil,
I was at the SP Centre in Edinburgh today and your query was buzzing in my head.
I won't give out all details here as this is both a personel matter and a delicate one, but i hope you don't mind if i share a couple of minor details to get Sancti and monica's views on it.
1st - Looking at your fathers register of birth I would say that its definatly been signed by his mother as the shape of the letters epecially the M is different from the registrars.
Also the birth was recorded by theassistant registrar but the comment regards his adoption has been added at the side by the registrar which could be important.
2nd - The record which I agree with Sancti looks possible for his mother Margaret Joseph Robb is for a Margaret josaphine Robb and the father this Margarets father is called William.
I will PM you the full details of that record. I looked for other children from the same parents but couldn't see any.
Whats your views Monica & Sancti?
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You're a good man Gerry :)
Re young William's birth cert, I agree that it was probably mother Margaret that reported the birth. Births always have to be reported by someone to the Registrar, regardless of their relationship to the child (as do deaths) and the certificate will indicate who reported the death in whatever capacity or relationship to the child.
That 1927 birth entry looks a promising possibility for mother Margaret, also from what you have said, the names given to baby William would make sense including the middle name.
Monica
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Well done Gerry.
I think the answer to it all will lie in any admission records for Dalbeth which may be held by the Catholic authorities. It should give her home address before entering into Dalbeth. I did note in a bit of history of the Dalbeth Magdalene Laundry that all denominations were admitted and not just RC's.
It's all rather sad but probably a sign of the times that the baby was put up for adoption. I would have thought that there was a closer hospital than Stobhill for the birth and maybe there is a clue in the choice of hospital.
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Yeah, could be that it was far enough away to distance the mother from the baby's after birth.
Or maybe the Nun's works there as nurses.
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Hi!!
Sorry I've not been replying back as had decided to take a wee break as have an interview next week so had to catch up with my sketches to make sure it's all presentable!
Wow, well I've been reading all of your messages and really thankful that someone out there is helping me with this as it's been a tough ride.. now where do i start to answer these messages! I've had to print them to read them while I respond so I remember what I need to answer back to them!
Right, I'll go through these and answer them
The information of Margaret J Robb is correct, she was married to a John Borthwick and she died from breast cancer that spread at the age of 41. But not solid that it's her still, I have her mother and fathers- Isabella Robb who died of heart attack at 80 years of age. Father's name was William Robb.
Now if this is her- she'd have been 15 when she'd given birth, pregnant at 14. Which I wouldn't cross out as an possibility as my dad has sort of an indian look and there's no father listed on the details.
Medical Archives do not have anything, as when I went to Mitchell Library, there was a woman from NHS archives who looked through all hospitals for Margaret Robb and on the system - there was nothing that came up and said that this birth could have been taken place at home. What she said was the stobhill, nothing and checked all other hosps, even looked at private ones that I'm not allowed to look into just to check incase she did find something and I'd have to apply for them. But nothing.
Gerry - I read your messages, I certainly learned alot which made me wonder and course determined not to give up. What crossed my mind is that Magdalen Laundry for young mothers, but on the adoption papers it looks like my dad was given straight over more or less at 3 weeks old to his new parents. This is one of the things that I have a gut feeling something is wrong. I don't know what it is and cannot put my finger on it.
I have been to the Archdiocese and they were shifty about it, they were careful with what they were saying and said they have taken their hands off it and cora now takes the head of the good shepherd. I have been to the cora in bishopton and all i have is these nun's phone numbers but because I am deaf, they wouldn't understand the typetalk relay that I use (typing through to an operator to translate what I say to a person over the phone) so it's quite difficult and I'm not willing to have my mother do these for me as it's a bit too personal as she did phone london's convent, newcastle and we ended up with an address in manchester which just passing on to ask that nun, ask the other nun and it's not that easy, I just need to be there myself and talk to them myself which is alot easier but hey, dundee to england is a long way and I might have to if I end up with nothing to play with!
Edinburgh is worth a go, I've emailed them again as they were the ones who passed my father's adoption papers to court for me to get an approval.
The reference on Dalbeth Laundry you gave me, that was a new information as never knew about that- was an interesting read. Thanks!
bear with me while I continue this... as don't want this to fault on me.. so want to save everything I want to put down while I continue.........
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As I go on...
I won't cross out any potentional information, especailly the Margaret Josephine Robb which on her birth certificate states her middle name as Joseph shown on the scotland's people search. I have to also remember that saying ther father's name is William, so is my father's adopted father. if it's not her, maybe the potentional another Margaret Joseph Robb- that her father's name maybe Joseph? Though not crossing out anything.
Having a look on my father's birth certificate and the consent that Margaret Robb gave her consent to adoption, both signature is totally different, the consent looked like someone possibly younger or not educated as known back in those days everyone has a writing sheet to write perfectly in standards. I'd say that the signature on the consent is her own and the birth certificate was written by someone who would be registering the birth - the Dundee library who confirmed who Margaret J Robb, given that she got married to a John Borthwick and a daughter- I should have checked the signatures.
And again what's playing my mind was the distances of all.. given that when Gerry showed me the reference link he found, the man there said transport wasn't very good as I'd be aware back in those days is quite difficult - thinking about him travelling to Hillington would be a bit of a journey compared now theres moterways and everything all updated.
And that there wasn't much cars about is what I'm aware which is bugging me.. I've tried to see the parts of where stobhill hospital, springburn and the way to go to London road- the old map shows that it's a bit of a way to go unless they did have a car arranged or thinking about what bus services would there be in those days seeing it was just after the war?
Lastly, bugging me is why isn't there anything for 1942 for any such information in Mitchell Library! I noticed some of the stuff I went through such as potentional schools Margaret went to, there was a gap and mitchell library said it could be that they were thrown out to make space or just went missing or of course stolen.
So it's all a bit of a muddle looking at these adoption papers. I wish I had a scanner and show them to you so you may pick something out! Especailly if one can read shorthand as there's one part of the paper I have that has shorthand and so far as many people I've asked cannot read shorthand.
I've emailed National Archives in Edinburgh again, as they were the ones who gave my dads adoption papers to court, now that I've got these, I've emailed to the adoption part, general and legal so hopefully there would be more information that I could find. The only thing I've just got popped into my head that lady in Mitchell Library mentioned try social work archives but I'd have to apply and don't know how difficult this will be as it was difficult enough to get an approval from court as its very rare that they do approve them even if it's medical related.
Mind boggling aswell to think was all this a smooth ride during my father's birth or was margaret really wanting to keep my father as given the dates during of all the court process.. my father was born in july, his birth certificate was done in August the 13th.. and the consent of adoption was the day before.. the 12th. All became official in October. And I'm not sure the legal wordings back in the old days or of any adoption proceedures, a petition to adopt... thinking of petition- is that the normal word to use to get adoption of a child or were they fighting for my dad- given also into account was that his adoptive dad was 49 years of age and his adoptive mother was 47.
And more to it was my dad did find out who he was when he was younger, the priest said to him to leave it be and that he's got his mother and father and thats it. So I don't know as that was one other thing that was bugging me as whether there was mabye a dark secret to it or just saying that to my father as he never did anything about it and that also the adoption papers were never opened since 1942, how did he find out his real name?
Well, I still am not giving up till I get some answers for definate, the only thing I would have to try is finding Margaret Josephine Robb's daughter, Isabella Mary Borthwick or John Borthwick if alive and maybe they can confirm it but how do I find them. That's something worth looking into. Maybe..
Whew! Hope I've answered everything you've said.... :S let me know if haven't.
lil
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Gonna take me a while to take all that info in. I dont think the transport links would have been as good as they are now a days but i know that the trams passed at the door ans seemingly turned about close by, Again a piece of what seemed useless info at the time but the wee woman mentioned that mothers would get off and feed the bairns at the gatehouse while waiting on the trams turning.
I know its a bit away and with you being in Dundee a bit of a trek to motherwell but Andrew Nicol of the Scottish catholic archives is doing a presentation at the LFHS night on 14th May. So if you havent got anywhere before then PM me and I will talk to him after the presentation and see if he can give this any advise.
The problem I see with all this is the The Catholic Church is notorious for keeping things secret and hushed up, (Priests sent to the missions etc) Nuns and these laundries were seen in their day as strict and used to cleanse the soul of sin, now a days i think we call it cruelty.
(No offence meant what so ever to any catholics)
Gerry
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That would be great to speak with Andrew Nicol of the Scottish catholic archives, even If I do get something before then, still would be useful to get as much information gathered, I'm going to do up a folder and gather all information together into sections as I've got printouts most of the information I've seen and still take them into account.
I do agree with you about the last part of how this was seen into. Just feels strange because you learn about other religion from all over the world but this is one I have never come across before and my family are catholics but I don't go to church, but you learn these in school aswell and just one part that was never tought for history as I think it's quite important for our generations to see and know about. But that's my own opinion. Not sure if any would agree.
lillias
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Gerry, that's sounds a good plan forward I think :) The whole nature of adoptions is based on confidentiality and protection of identity of the birth mother. Official adoptions of this period are still very hard to unravel, coupled with the RC angle and their own adoption procedures further complicates matters. The only realistic hope I think of finding a connection to the Margaret J born in 1927 is finding some records for Dalbeth Girls Home and I'm not sure whether the Church even over 60 years later would be prepared to release this information but this is speculation on my part and it would be great Gerry if you could get feedback on this aspect from the Archivist.
In respect of earlier comments of how Margaret Robb's birth entry was indexed in 1927 (as Margaret Joseph Robb) it is simply because of the number of characters that can be shown on the index. To have put Josephine, as is clear from her actual entry, could have exceeded the maximum number of letters that can be displayed on the index.
Also, from the dates we now have. I would guess that the pregnant girls that were sent to the Home did so with the understanding (and likely parents' intentions) of having the babies adopted immediately after birth. Adoptive families are likely to have already been in the wings prior to babies' births. Solicitors would also be ready to begin the adoption process immediately after the births. Young William looks to have been with his new adoptive parents within 4 weeks of his birth (if not earlier?). Likely also that his adoptive parents may well have organised William's baptism given his age.
The referece to 'Petition to Adopt' is at its simplest an application to the Courts for adoption. Similarly, the Petitioner's Solicitor, would have been responsible for acting on behalf of the prospective adoptive parents through the legal adoption court process I believe.
From what you have said Lil, your father's adoptive parents look to have told him what his birth name was. This is not uncommon when children/adults find out that they are adopted and begin to ask lots of questions. Whether he knew more than would be impossible for you to guess.
Lil, I get the feeling that with your dedication to try and arrive at the facts, if anyone can break through these invisible walls you can :)
Monica
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Lil
What is 'CORA' :P
Monica
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Bear in mind that 1942 was in the middle of the war, I don't know what the transport situation would have been like. With Glasgow and Clydebank being the targets of German bombers I would have thought that Dalbeth would have had a facility for the girls to give birth there. It does seem strange that she gave birth in Stobhill if living at Dalbeth.
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It is possible that she was visiting family in the area when she went into labour. That might explain why she was so far from Dalbeth. Do we know what day of the week William was born?
Monica I think Cora might be this:
http://www.coralearning.org.uk/
or this:
"The Cora Foundation, an Agency of the Catholic Bishops' Conference of Scotland, is the body which provides support and co-ordinated services to the Boards of Managers of Saint Mary's Kenmure, St. John's, Springboig, as well as the Good Shepherd Centre and St. Philip's." from the Scottish Catholic Media Office.
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Thanks for that Kirsty :)
Monica
PS William was born a Monday (just checked the calendar for that year!)
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Thanks Monica. I just wondered if she had maybe gone home for the weekend and had been taken in to the nearest hospital from there.
I wonder if there is such a thing as a Post Office directory or some such for that area?
Kirsty
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The hospital one is still a puzzler, one thing for sure is tha addresses. If you put both into google maps 133 Barlonock RD takes to smack bang in Stobhill Hospital and 1920 London RD is the address for the gatehouse of Dalbeth St Peters Cemetery.
Cosidering both the Royal and Rottenrow Maternity was opperational in 1947 it does make me wonder why, Stobhill didn't join the NHS till 1960 so could it be possible that it was ran and operated by Nuns??
Lil, another possible link for information came into my head on your medical research side of the tree.
Dr Kevin O Dell at the Molecular Genetics Dept of University of Glasgow, again he was a speaker at the LFHS last year and was very helpful. You can see more about him on -
http://www.gla.ac.uk:443/ibls/staff/staff.php?who=|ePd~Q
Dr KMC O'Dell BSc PhD
Pontecorvo Building
University of Glasgow
G12 8QQ
tel: 0141 330 6218
fax: 0141 330 4878
email: K.ODell[at][/blue]bio.gla.ac.uk (Replace [at] with @)
Always worth a email.
Gerry
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Thanks Monica, a Monday! Nice to learn something such as that! My dad sure would be smiling about that one!
Thanks Gerry for the contact details for Dr Kevin O Dell, will give it a go and see what comes back. Any information would come useful.
I have been looking to see if I can find Margaret Josephine Robb's daughter, Isabella but not sure if she married so I don't know how I can find out and ask if she's the right daughter of Margaret Robb that I'm looking for. although now my research has quietened down because I can't seem to get anywhere at this point, Adoptions in National Archives responded that they could not be of any help further but still waiting for the other dept to see if there's anything. If no reply by the end of this week, I'll give them a phone to see if it's worth my trip going over.
Other than that, nothing new to tell- still determined to get somewhere!
Again, thanks for all your help with this as I couldn't have coped with out you guys. Certainly keeps me smiling!
Will keep youse updated if I have anything new.
Lil
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It appears to have joined the NHS in 1948 but it still does not explain why the baby was born in Stobhill from Dalbeth. I still think only the Dalbeth records (wherever they are held) will confirm the identity of the mother.
In 1928 a new radiology department was opened and Stobhill became a general hospital in 1929. In 1930 Stobhill came under the control of the Glasgow Corporation. In 1931 a maternity unit opened. Stobhill became a teaching hospital in 1937 with the arrival of Noah Morris, Professor of Materia Medica in the University of Glasgow. In 1948 it was transferred to the National Health Service, under the Board of Management for Glasgow Northern Hospitals, and designated one of the 5 major central hospitals of the new Western Regional Hospital Board.
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Lil
One thing to keep in mind. If we have found the correct Margaret Robb b. 1927, given her age and the circumstances surrounding her pregnancy and birth of son, it could well be that her future husband and children knew nothing about her first child and it was kept as a family secret. Many mothers going down this route did and do keep this information hidden (although never forgotten).
Monica
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I wonder if Margaret continued to work in the laundry after the birth and if so it may show as her occupation on her marrige record.