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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Kent => Topic started by: Redroger on Tuesday 07 April 09 14:20 BST (UK)
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Adolphus (b1841 Wittersden Kent) appears on the 1881 census in Cambridge Place Cambridge, a street occupied by the very large and extended Brignell family. Does anyone know of his activities with the conjuring, and his parents?
Is the fact that he was in a street heavily populated by bearers of his family name meaningful, or just coincidental?
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Hi Redroger,
The 1871 census describes him as a musician.
1851
HO107/1620 141 1
Wittersham, Kent
John Brignall, head, 30, Farmer's son, b. Wittersham
Ann, wife, 36, School Mistress, b. do.
James Bourne, wife's son, 13, Errand Boy, b. Brockland
Adolphus Brignall Bourne, son, 10, scholar at home, b. Wittersham
John Tyler? Brignall, son, 5, scholar at home, b. do.
Ann Elizth Brignall, dau, 5 mo, b. do.
:)
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Hi Tati, Thanks for that. It seems that the Brignell connection to Cambridge (if any) may be further back than I thought. Anything further from 1841 please, like hopefully, John Brignell's farmer father born outside the county?
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THere are several Brignalls in Cambridge Place in 1871 too (none with a Kent connection though)
at No 21
Elizabeth - age 18 single born Cambridge, lodger
at No 33
John 33 labourer
Emma wife 35
Louisa 16
Charles 12
Alfred 7
Frederick 5
John 3 mths all bn Cambridge
at No 41
James 46 labourer
Mary Ann 45 wife bn Shelford
James 16
Elizabeth 9
Alice 11 mths all bar wife bn Cambridge
At No 44
Sarah widow 39 laundress
Hannah 10
Matilda 7
Robert Colley lodger widwer 44 all bn Cambridge
At No 78
Charles 23 Gen labourer
Esther 19
Esther 1
Elizabeth 6 mths all bn Cambridge
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(Caroline) Ester at No.78 was my great grandmother. Sadly she died in childbirth in 1880.My grandmother's maternal grandmother, Sarah Brignell (Nee ???) appears on my grandparents wedding photo dated 1896. See Ayres wedding 1896 on photo restoration board. She is one of them who I do know!
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Sorry, I can't ID John Brignall in 1841 (Ann Bourne is with her children in Wittersham).
This looks like the marriage:
Dec 1845 Hastings 7 609
John Brignall to possibly Ann Bourne
If it's the right marriage, it should tell John's father's name (not sure where you'll go from there though!)
:)
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Here they all are in 1861
(I see Charles, married to Esther in 1871, is here with mother Hannah)
No 27
William 36 Plumber and PAinter bn Kensington Middx
Sarah 30
Sarah 11
Elizabeth 9
Mary A 6 all bar Wm bn Cambridge
No 33
John 27 Bricklayers labourer
Emma 27 bn Little Shelford
Louisa 5
John 4
Charles 3
Emma 1 all bar wife bn Cambr.
No 41
James 30 Bricklayers lab
Mary A 32 bn Little Shelford
MAry A 10
James 6 all bar wife bn Cambr.
No 46
Hannah widow 56 Dom servant
Charles 13 son bn CAmbridge
+ 2 boarders (Jennings)
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Sarah Brignell (Nee ???)
The IGI has:
Marriage 25 Dec 1847
St Paul, Cambridge
William Brignell (father William Brignell) to Sarah Moule (age 18, father John Moule)
:)
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1851 sees only 2 families in Cambridge Place (William has wife Hannah, not Sarah - as per charles mum on later censuses, but no sign Charles here, should be age 3)
James 21 bn C
MAry Ann 21 bn Litl Shelford
Mary 1 bn C
William 67 bn Duxford
Hannah 47 bn Cambridge
John 17
Richard 12
Alfred 7 all children bn Cambr.
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Aha - there is a Charles age 3 who IS a son of Wm and Sarah !!!!
HO107 1760 265 16
Gloucester Place Cambridge
William 24 Plumber and Glazier bn Kingsland Middx
Sarah 20
Chalres 3
Sarah A 9 mths
... strange as there is a 13 yr old as son of Hannah in 1861 and then 23 yr old married to Esther in 1871 - both in Cambridge Place
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In 1861, this William and Sarah are at 23 Cambridge Place (listed above) but no Charles with them.
Only contender for Charles is the one with Hannah ....
I wonder if he is NOT a son of Hannah, but another relation, just staying, and the entry is incorrect.
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Quite likely Lizdb, they were a very large and extended family and from what my grandmother told me before her death in 1953 they moved around within the extended family group, staying at each others houses for extended periods. Regarding the additional link on Adolphus, I was unaware that I had done this; I can't remember doing it at all. I currently have a virus (not computer!) so it does make me wonder!
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Mystery solved: Previously I have had more (and better) responses by posting separate queries where more than one county is involved. I can now recall it. Maybe I'm getting too old for this game!!
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I do hope you feel better soon.
Generally it is not such a good idea to post multiple requests asking the same thing. It means that people can spend their time looking for stuff that has already been found on a different thread, without knowing. And that is really annoying if you spend hours looking for something and then find someone else has also spent hours looking at exactly the same things following the same clues etc.
Thats why I put a link on your Cambridgeshire request, to stop anyone doing exactly the same searches that have been done on here, and wasting several hours, as they have already been done.
Hope you didnt mind.
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Don't mind in the least, will follow the procedure you suggest in future. Now on anti biotics!Thanks for your good wishes
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Back to the original question regarding Adolphus
Adolphus (b1841 Wittersden Kent) appears on the 1881 census in Cambridge Place Cambridge, a street occupied by the very large and extended Brignell family. Does anyone know of his activities with the conjuring, and his parents?
Is the fact that he was in a street heavily populated by bearers of his family name meaningful, or just coincidental?
and looking at Tati's 1851 census entry ...........
1851
HO107/1620 141 1
Wittersham, Kent
John Brignall, head, 30, Farmer's son, b. Wittersham
Ann, wife, 36, School Mistress, b. do.
James Bourne, wife's son, 13, Errand Boy, b. Brockland
Adolphus Brignall Bourne, son, 10, scholar at home, b. Wittersham
John Tyler? Brignall, son, 5, scholar at home, b. do.
Ann Elizth Brignall, dau, 5 mo, b. do.
I think this could be John (possibly with his parents) in 1841 at Wittersham, Kent:
John BRIGNALL 55 farmer b.Kent
Mary 60 b.Kent
John 20 son b.Kent
Mary FUDGE 6 grandau not born in Kent
HO107/479 folio 28 page 4
........................
1851 - Mumford's, Wittersham, Kent
John BRIGNALL head mar 68 farmer of 30 acres employing 1 lab b.Wittersham Kent
Mary wife 69 b.High Halden Kent
Sarah FUDGE visitor 16 house servant b.Battle Sussex
HO107/1620 folio 131 page 12
.....................
1861 - Mumford's Farm, Wittersham, Kent
John BRIGNALL head mar 78 farmer of 30 acres employing 2 ............ b.Wittersham
Mary W wife 79 b.High Halden Kent
Mary A grandau unm 18 b.Wittersham
RG9/509 folio 112 page 10
john BRIGNALL married Mary Wood TYLER at Wittersham 1805 http://woodchurchancestry.org.uk/midkentmarriages/index.php
Still doesn't help much but another generation back for Adolphus
Casalguidi :)
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My earliest Brignall whose place of birth is known is William (b Duxford Cambs 1789) which is in the same era as John b c1793 in Kent.William's father was James Brignell, and his mother Rachel ? I have no information on their places of birth, or age etc. John could quite possibly be a sibling or cousin of William, but as we are getting a long way back I think it will be difficult to establish. Thanks for your help. Greatly appreciated.
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Interestingly I find that William Brignall, son of the William b 1789 Duxford was b in London (Kensington) in 1825, I just wonder is there any known link between Brignall in Kent, and Brignall in London? The name Brignall is also spelt Brignell with no apparent consistency between the two versions.
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Hi Roger
I know his isn't an help but as a Brignall myself, I am related to Brignall's born in Wittersham but then my side moved to the Romney Marsh area. I would also be interested to know if there is a link to London as this is where I live now.
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Hi Jonnus, I don't know of a link from the Kent Brignells to London, all I know is that one of my ancestors William Brignell, of a Cambridgeshire family was born in London in 1825, and that Adolphus Brignell, definitely a Kent Brignell appeared in the 1881 census in a street in Cambridge, Cambridge Place which was heavily populated with Brignells. Despite getting back into the late 18th century, see previous postings I have so far been unable to connect the 2 lines. Was it just coincidence? Frankly I don't believe in them! Thanks for replying.
Roger
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Hi Roger,
Could your James and Rachel Brignell be the following:
Banns St. Peter, Duxford
March 23 1777
James Brignell of Hinxton
Rachel Knights otp (married 30 March)
Marriage St. John, Duxford
March 30 1777
James Brygnell bac of Hinxton
Rachel Knights otp
Wits John Cowling and Fras Patten
Selina
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That's them Selina, Thanks again.
Roger
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OK will pm Willis stuff later and a suggestion re Sarah Moule.
Selina
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Thanks very much Selina, will look out for it.
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Entering the information onto the data base, I think I cracked that one Lizdb, Charles was staying with his grandmother, Hannah Fuller.
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Not sure whether this thread was finished my husband Charles is the gr grandson of Adolphus BRIGNALL.
On his grandmother's two marriage certificates he is described as a musician (she was Bessie Naomi BRIGNALL and she first married William Bertram TOOVEY in 1918 and after she was widowed she married Charles LOCK in 1924).
Adolphus BRIGNALL in the 1851 Census was described as a "grifted son" of John BRIGNALL and his wife Ann. She had first been married to James BOURNE(R) and had two sons: James and Adolphus.
I haven't been able to find him in the 1861 Census, but in 1871 he turns up in Norwich, Norfolk.
He married his wife Ellen DYSON in 1876 in King's Lynn, Norfolk and after being in Cambrisgeshire in 1881, they settled in Clare, Suffolk. On the Census Returns he is invariably a magician or public conjuror.
They had 6 daughters and one son, who also became a magician and lived in Birmingham.
If anyone else has info about him please let us know!
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Not sure whether this thread was finished my husband Charles is the gr grandson of Adolphus BRIGNALL.
On his grandmother's two marriage certificates he is described as a musician (she was Bessie Naomi BRIGNALL and she first married William Bertram TOOVEY in 1918 and after she was widowed she married Charles LOCK in 1924).
Adolphus BRIGNALL in the 1851 Census was described as a "grifted son" of John BRIGNALL and his wife Ann. She had first been married to James BOURNE(R) and had two sons: James and Adolphus.
I haven't been able to find him in the 1861 Census, but in 1871 he turns up in Norwich, Norfolk.
He married his wife Ellen DYSON in 1876 in King's Lynn, Norfolk and after being in Cambrisgeshire in 1881, they settled in Clare, Suffolk. On the Census Returns he is invariably a magician or public conjuror.
They had 6 daughters and one son, who also became a magician and lived in Birmingham.
If anyone else has info about him please let us know!
Many thanks for this Claire.This thread is certainly not dead or closed; moribund yes until you re-activated it. The problems I have with Adolphus are that he seems to have been born in Kent, but suddenly appears in Cambridge Place (a street full of Brignells including my maternal grandmother. He appeared out of nowhere into this street in I think it was the 1881 census. A little too co-incidental for my liking.Further problems are the family move from Cambridge to Kent and apparently back again in his generation, Also the fact there are 2 John Brignells born 1783 and 1793 respecively. Despite their birthplaces showing as Cambs and Kent is it possible they are the same person.
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I think I may have found him in the 1861 Census as an enlisted soldier but the name is recorded as A Brignall, so I can't be sure. He may have been the black sheep of the family. From 1851 Census the children seem to have been home-schooled by Ann who in the 1841 Census is Ann BOURNER, School mistress. The BRIGNALLs technically aren't his natural family, yet it appears he was 'adopted' by John BRIGNALL, who married Ann BOURNE(R) née BREADS. His real father would have been James BOURNE(R), who died in 1840.
I found a number of newspaper articles concerning Adolphus BRIGNALL on www.findmypast.co.uk.
They range from 1877 (Bury and Norwich Post) to 1890 (Grantham Journal).
Mostly they report of the evening's entertainment by Mr. Brignall re: magic tricks; slight of hand; ventriloquism and singing and playing the cornet. As an public entertainer he would have had to move around.
But the Bury and Norwich Post refers to the fact that he fathered an illigitimate daughter and was ordered to pay maintenance till she was 13. Perhaps that is why he moved from Cambridgeshire to Suffolk.
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Thanks Claire; Though there was no formal adoption process until 1929 I have come across many cases of informal adoption prior to this. Usually in my experience the children have retained their birth surname, which if Adolphus was a Bourner makes the case somewhat unusual. Certainly leaving home and army service were often done by children who found themselves with a new stepfather or mother. The usual form for adoptees in a census is "son (or daughter) in law" of the head of the household which was exactly what their legal status was.
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His real father would have been James BOURNE(R), who died in 1840.
The James BOURNE who died Romney Marsh registration district in 1840 was born c1760 and was buried in Brenzett. Would this be correct would you think or, perhaps more likely, the James BOURNER who died 1838 Tenterden could be Ann's husband thus leaving Adolphus illegitimate as suggested by his baptism at http://www.familysearch.org ? Perhaps BRIGNALL was his father or otherwise an unknown person but it doesn't look like his father was James BOURNER unless I'm missing something :-\
Casalguidi :)
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What I have is that Ann BREADS married james BOURNE in q4 of 1838 in Tenderden Registration District, Kent.
The handwriting in the Census Return of 1841 reads as if it might be BOURNE or BOURNER. It's not very clear.
The Census Return of 1851 has the eldes son James I BOURNE(R) as 'grifted son' (not Adolphus - apologies about that) and Adolphus is Adolphus BOURNE(R) BRIGNALL and 'son' as relation to head.
Ann BOURNE married John BRIGNALL the 8 Nov 1845 in Hasings, Sussex.
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So; if i interpret that census entry correct and they followed the normal practice in these situations then Adolphus was the son of Bourne(r) and not a blood Brignell. We still have the mystery though as to why he appeared in 1881 in a street full of Brignells in Cambridge!!
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Hi Not sure whether this thread is still active. Came across it by chance whilst looking for some information on my grandmother Sarah Brignall ( Burn) Which I think makes Adolphus Brignall my gr grandfather. I have photographs of 5 of the 6 of Adolphus Brignalls children, namely John, Sarah, Ethel, Constance, & Bessie. When I was growing up in Clare I met Bessie quite often when she visited my father. I also visited Bessie in London, she lived quite close to the Angel of Islington. My father's first names were Richard Adolphus. His mother Sarah must have named him after her father, Adolphus. Richard came from her husband Richard Henry, and his father was also named Richard. Sarah is buried in an unmarked grave in the cemetery in Clare Suffolk. Richard Henry Burn my grandfather disappeared and finished up in Canada after remarrying in England.
After WW1 he became a Canadian citizen and died in Vancouver in 1960.
I now have a question which at present I am unable to answer - In my grandmothers burial plot in Clare cemetery Sarah my grandmother was buried in 1914 ( I have a copy of her death certificate) however, I have recently been in formed that a S Dyson was also buried there in 1944. Given that Adolphus Brignall married Ellen Dyson, is there any family link?
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Hi
I have just remembered That I met Adolphus Brignalls son John more than once and I remember he taught me some magic card tricks. I guess he must have picked this up from his father.
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I have not looked at our family tree in quite some time due to a family bereavement.
Sarah BRIGNALL was Bessie Naomi BRIGNALL's sister and thus you would be related to my husband! Are you then a son of Hymen?
I do not know an awful lot about the BRIGNALLs other than what I have posted before. I had contact before with another person whose grandmother had an illigitimate child by a Solly MARTIN who was married to Ethel BRIGNALL - another of the sisters. These sisters met once a week for high tea in Bessie Naomi's home, but they never went over to Ethel's house, maybe due to the fact that Solly MARTIN was a naturalised Jew from Germany. They had been together since 1906 yet my father in law only remembered being in their house just the once.
I would love to hear more as the English family tree seems to be easier to populate than the Irish side! Take care.
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Also the S DYSON may have been Sarah DYSON, Ellen DYSON's sister? She was born in 1866...
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Thanks for the reply Claire.
Not quite sure what you mean re Hymen?
I have traced my male line back to the early 1800's. My ancestors were originally farm workers in north Nottinghamshire. It seems that they then migrated south and lived in London. This is where Sarah Brignall met my grandfather (Richard Henry Burn) Sarah worked in service in London after growing up in Clare.
Is your husband related to Bessie?
My father always seemed a bit irked by his aunt Bessie. As I understand it when he was effectively orphaned in 1914 I don't think she was agreeable to take him in (he was born in 1911)
Interestingly, when I discovered what happened to my father's father, he disappeared to Canada in 1913 and subsequently joined the Canadian army in 1916, his attestation papers show he had a son in England (my father) in the care of his sister Ada Burn in London.
Interesting re your comment on S Dyson. My recent research leads me to believe that S Dyson is a Sarah Dyson. She was in her 80's when she died in 1944. I am wondering how I can firm up the connection with Ellen? Any further thoughts on this please?
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My late grandmother Melinda Ayres(nee Brignell, she is on the 1881 census along with Adolphus and the rest) always said that the Brignells were Irish.
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Hi there,
I think I am getting a bit confused here. My husband's father was the second son of Bessie Naomi BRIGNALL. (According to him it was always spelt with an "a"). He told us that his aunt Sarah (Bessie Naomi's sister) was married to a Richard BOTTERILL There is a marriage record to that effect in 1926 Q4 East Riding Yorkshire. However if your Sarah died in 1914 they cannot be one and the same and that entry must be for someone completely different. Do you have a copy of the marriage certificate of your Sarah and Richard Henry BURN? My father in law at times gets confused (he's not the only one!)so when he told us this he may have got names incorrect?
Also Hymen was Ethel and Solly MARTIN's son, not Sarah's, so apologies for that.
I was previously in contact with someone who had done a lot of research into the BRIGNALL / DYSON / BLOOMFIELD families. They aren't Irish - they were from Wittersham, Kent and then Adolphus BRIGNALL moved around and ended up settling in Clare, Suffolk.
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Hi Claire
Definitely think your relative is getting confused.
I have both the marriage certificate and the death certificate for my grandmother Sarah Burn Originally (Brignall)
After my farther died in 1994 I spent 10 years trying to find my grandfather who left England (disappeared) in 1913 almost a year before Sarah died. By shear fluke of luck/chance found that he went to America and then Canada, joined the Canadian army in 1916 and came back to England en route to fight in France. Remarried in Kent before he left for France. Up until 6 years ago I didn't know that I also had a step grandmother!
I am quite willing to show/send you a copy of the certs' Just not sure how this is accomplished.
Perhaps you will be kind enough to advise. Also have some photos you may be interested in.
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I also would have photos and certs I think you might be interested in.
I cannot share my email address with you through rootsweb but I have an ancestry account through which you can private message someone. Are you on ancestry?
You could possibly link through the posted family trees? As I said my info on Sarah is incorrect and I will change it. I apologise for the incorrect info.
Take care, Claire
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Hi Claire
I did have an Ancestry account. Haven't used it for some time. Just put my profile on there. Perhaps you will be kind enough to advise whether this helps or not. If it's not, maybe we need to give some further thought as to how we can successfully navigate through this one since I would be most interested in what photos you might have.
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I haven't gone through every post, so I am just picking up on the concept of him arriving/appearing "randomly" in Cambridge Place and I might be able to toss something into the mix there re Kent.
In my tree I have a link to Kent and the Brignalls. I'll try to keep it coherent :)
Take all this as unsubstantiated with certificates - all done "for free", so not double-checked.
Obadiah Lucas of Cambridge Place (1835-1919) was born in Kent and married Caroline Whitby (1833-1914)
They had several children - in the early days a few of them were being baptised in Kent, so they were actively travelling from Cambridge Place to Tonbridge, Kent in their early married years (m. 1855). Obadiah's family were entrenched in the Tonbridge area for years before this date.
Caroline Whitby had a sister, Emma (b 1835). Emma married John Brignell < 1856).
Caroline Whitby had a sister, Mary Ann (b 1830). Mary Ann married James Brignell.
So two sisters married two Brignells - and their sister Caroline married Obadiah with a Kent connection. Obadiah's income sources appear to be a bit of "traveller/salesman" style.
So you might like to investigate these people who all lived in Cambridge Place.
Somehow the two families met and intermarried and lived among each other - but also travelled back/forth to Kent, probably until Obadiah's parents died (dates unknown).
Hope that helps and isn't a bunch of red herrings.
My interest in this family is that Obadiah's grandson was my grandfather ... and I still haven't found when/where he died...
Obadiah/Caroline are my GG-grandparents.
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Thank you for your insights.
The BRIGNALL family that Adolphus hailed from was based in Wittersham, Kent. According to the Census records 1851 there is a farm (which I currently do not have the name for - sorry!)
Anyhow Adolphus BRIGNALL was actually born Adolphus BOURNE(R) and his parents were James BOURNE(R) and Ann BREADS. He had an older brother James. His father died and his mother married John BRIGNALL. She was educated and home schooled her children, as well as any children she had with John BRIGNALL.
It is interesting how you have linked the families, but I am not sure how close the underlying family relationships are. Also I think Adolphus might have been a black sheep as he goes missing for the Census of 1861 (he might have enlisted but I cannot be sure the A BRIGNELL I found is him).
I don't have actual dates in front of me but they are in the earlier posts.
Hope that helps! Claire
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Thanks for these two most recent postings both of which i shall investigate further. A general point should be made about all spelling, A different spelling does NOT preclude relationship. I knew 2 brothers one spelt JESSUP the other JESSOP both insisted their version was correct, Research into the |uncommon surname Luffman has generated 13 variants!There was no standard spelling before the late 18th century, people recorded what they heard.