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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Bedfordshire => Topic started by: fred2derf on Monday 06 April 09 10:58 BST (UK)
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John BARNES b. 27 Jun 1812 Bletsoe, Bedford ? (Privately submited IGI) - parents Joseph & Elizabeth PICKERING ??
married on 14 Jul 1833 St Antholin, Budge Row, London (extracted IGI)
Elizabeth King ELLEN c. 4 Jan 1803 Mustons Lane Independent Church in Shaftesbury, Dorset - parents Thomas ELLEN & Mary Elizabeth KING
Children:
Thomas Alfred b. ? c. 12 Nov 1837 St Dunstan's Stepney, Middlesex
John Frederick b. ? c. 12 Nov 1837 St Dunstan's Stepney, Middlesex
a third son? b. c. 12 Nov 1837 St Dunstan's Stepney, Middlesex
Elizabeth Jane b. 9 Jan 1839 ?
Mary Ellen b. 9 Jan 1839 ?
George Robert b. 31 Jan 1840 ?
A baptism reg in NSW, Australia:
Reg# V18407324 45C/1840 BARNES GEORGE R JOHN ELIZABETH K
John and Elizabeth supposedly arrived in NSW on 5 Apr 1841 on the 'Abbotsford' from London with 3 sons.
So many things don't add up. Is Thomas the first born so long after the marriage? Where was George Robert born? Is the third son William John?
Are John's parents Joseph and Elizabeth PICKERING?
John is said to have four siblings and two or three also came to Australia, with John and his family or separately:
Joseph Samuel BARNES b. abt 1824 Bedford ? d. 16 July 1878 Wagga Wagga, NSW - shot by a bush ranger - no death certificate because there was an inquest - court case.
Susannah BARNES b. 3 Dec 1815 in Bletsoe, Bedford d. NSW
Elizabeth BARNES b. abt 1810 ? did she also go to Australia ?
I am aware that the names John and Joseph BARNES are very common in England.
I'd appreciate some help with this family.
Thanks.
Fred
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Hi Fred....
There is also another submitted entry for John Barnes who married Elizabeth Ellen as being born Cornwall 1812 and him dying in 1863 NSW Murrumburrah.
If you have a look on Ancestry in the family tree sections there are trees relating to this family .
One has Thomas Alfred being born in Padstow in 1836. This tree was only updated in March this year.
Hopefully someone may have Blestoe records as IGI on has extracted records to 1812 on the site .
Tazzie
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Hello tazzie,
Thanks. Yes, I hope someone can help out with the Bletsoe BARNES from the Bishop's Transcripts for Bletsoe 1602-1861.
Yes I have seen the born in Cornwall one and this one too:
John BARNES b. 27 Jun 1812 Bletsoe, Bedford, England d. 30 Aug 1863 - parents Joseph & Elizabeth PICKERING (privately submitted IGI)
There are so many John BARNES and so many privately submitted entries without sources that is may be impossible to ever be certain that anyone has the right one in their tree.
The father of the Thomas BARNES born in NSW in 1836 is listed as being Thomas on the birth reg.
I'm not in Sydney so I can't view any shipping reels. A Mr Barnes & family arrived in NSW on 5 Apr 1841 on the 'Abbotsford'.
Regards,
Fred
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There’s a marriage at Bletsoe on 16 Oct 1809 between Joseph Barns and Elizabeth Infield, but no subsequent baptisms, at least up to 1812 when the extracted entries on the cease. Elizabeth Infield appears to have been baptised in Bletsoe in 1789. The member submission to which you refer has a birth date, rather than a baptism date, so doesn’t appear to have been taken from the parish register. If a baptism took place before 1813 it should be on the IGI – the IGI entries for Bletsoe are taken from the transcript, which is an amalgam of the parish register and the bishop’s transcript.
Virtually all of Beds baptisms and marriages pre 1813 have been extracted onto the IGI. There’s no marriage of a John Barnes to Elizabeth Pickering. For events subsequent to 1812 there’s no transcript, other than the IGI, BVRI and NBI; you need to look at the microfilm which can be ordered from and viewed at your nearest LDS Family History Centre. The member submission looks to me as though it’s suspect.
The third son baptised at Stepney on 12 Nov 1737 was William John Barnes, which is an extracted entry on the IGI. The fact that three sons were baptised together would imply that one or probably more were late baptisms, which would explain the gap between 1833 and 1837.
Unless there are records in Australia, which presumably is where the birth date and birthplace Bletsoe for John come from, any of the John Barnes born c1812 could be the one who emigrated.
David
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Hello David,
Thank you very much. I am wondering if all the other researchers of this family found it impossible to prove anything so desperate for a 'complete' tree they 'invented' something. I wonder where Elizabeth PICKERING came from? Possibly a connection to a BARNES family in Cornwall?
A view of all the shipping reels with a BARNES on it is needed. I'm in SE Asia so I can't do that nor can I visit a FHC. One of the problems is that there is no death certificate in NSW for one of the BARNES. His death was the subject of a court case. His date of death is known from the court documents and his headstone.
Details from a marriage certificate which lists the witnesses establishes that John BARNES spouse of Elizabeth ELLEN and Joseph Samuel were brothers. Susannah who also went to NSW is believed to be a sibling. I've not seen a copy of her death certificate and I don't know of any researcher who has a copy of it either.
You are correct in saying it may be very difficult to prove other than 'Joseph and Elizabeth' who the parents of these three are. It seems people are copying stuff from 'you know where' and the errors are spreading.
This may remain a brick wall.
Regards,
Fred
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Hello David,
I'm trying to separate fact from fiction, more exactly listing events that have some source.
John BARNES b. ? where ? d. 30 Aug 1863 NSW, Australia
Death Reg# 6635/1863 BARNES JOHN JOSEPH ELIZABETH BURRANGONG
I don't know of anyone yet who has a copy of that death certificate so I can't say if there is any more information re his parents other than 'Joseph & Elizabeth.'
married on 14 Jul 1833 St Antholin, Budge Row, London (extracted IGI)
Elizabeth King ELLEN c. 4 Jan 1803 Mustons Lane Independent Church in Shaftesbury, Dorset - parents Thomas ELLEN & Mary Elizabeth KING
Children:
Thomas Alfred b. ? c. 12 Nov 1837 St Dunstan's Stepney, Middlesex d. 20 Oct 1902 Murrumburrah, NSW
John Frederick b. ? c. 12 Nov 1837 St Dunstan's Stepney, Middlesex d. NSW ?
William John b. ? c. 12 Nov 1837 St Dunstan's Stepney, Middlesex d. England before family travelled or died in NSW, perhaps in 1841??
George Robert b. ? c. 1840 NSW d. 24 May 1920 Murrumburrah, NSW
A Mr Barnes & family arrived in NSW on 5 Apr 1841 on the 'Abbotsford' from London. But we don't know anything more about that family yet. Also, it does not fit in with the following:
A baptism reg in NSW, Australia:
Reg# V18407324 45C/1840 BARNES GEORGE R JOHN ELIZABETH K
So the family we are tracing didn't arrive in 1841. The next question is was George Robert born in England and baptised in NSW or was he born in NSW? If the story of 3 sons arriving is correct then either George Robert or William John was the 3rd one.
William John did die young but there are way too many deaths of 'William Barnes' in FreeBMD and in NSW BMD to help us find where and when he died. I think it's more likely William John was the 3rd one and that he died in NSW. Then George Robert was born in NSW. Then another son named William John.
A baptism reg in NSW, Australia:
Reg# V18427325 45C/1842 BARNES WILLIAM J JOHN ELIZABETH K
I hope someone is able to search the shipping records between 12 Nov 1837 and Dec 1840 for John and Elizabeth and 3 sons + others?
This seems too early but is the only Susannah I've found so far:
London to Port Jackson NSW
Arrival Date 11 Aug 1833
'Bussorah Merchant'
Susanna Barnes born abt 1813
also an Elizabeth Barnes same ship Born abt 1811
Joseph Samuel b. ? c. ? d. 16 July 1878 Wagga Wagga, NSW No death certificate because his death was the subject of a court case.
He married on 6 Jun 1848 in NSW. He was single so it's not him in 1841 either.
Joseph and his spouse were witnesses at the marriage in 1866 of his nephew Thomas Alfred to his spouse's younger sister.
Regards,
Fred
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morning all,
I have just had a contact on Genes Reunited that says she has the death certificate of John Barnes that confirms he was born 1812 Bletsoe to Joseph Barnes & Elizabeth Pickering. I have sent her a link to this topic - so perhaps we'll hear back.
Also I've just sent a quick email to the Beds Archives to see if they'll check out the baptisms on Bletsoe PR 1813 onwards for any children of a John & Elizabeth Barnes. Perhaps they'll be kind and do it for free !. I'll keep you posted. There is no baptism in the Bletsoe PR transript for John Barnes in 1812 - perhaps they did him later.
regards John
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Hello John,
Thank you very much. That's very interesting. The researchers who copied that bit about 1812 and Elizabeth PICKERING certainly didn't bother taking any source info with them, that's assuming it was provided on the original.
I'm still hoping someone has access to some info from the shipping records. John and his family, brother Joseph and Susannah probably arrived separately.
Regards,
Fred
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Hello, In response to my email to the Beds Archives, my good mate Trevor tells me that in future all enquiries would be chageable. Since 1st April the Beds Archives is now managed by the new unitarian council of Borough + County councils (to whom I pay my councils tax).. anyway this one is a freebie - re. Bletsoe baptism lookup.....
The only baptism I have come across is that of Susanna Barnes, daughter of Joseph and Elizabeth, baptised at Bletsoe on 3rd December 1815.
.... and he has noticed ,,,....
There is a strange entry on the IGI of a baptism, at Bletsoe, of John Barnes on 27th June 1812. I am sure that you have come across this. But where the source came from or who entered it is not shown. It also records the parents as Joseph Barnes and Elizabeth Pickering, not Infield. It is not shown in the parish register either. It's a mystery.
... so the John Barnes born/baptised 1812 is imaginary ...
regards John
PS - I still await a response from my Genes Reunited contact ...
& PPS how to get a 11+minute Bob Dylan classic truncated into less than 3 munutes, did they miss some verses out ? ...see ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hxq-rTGxpyQ&feature=related
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Hello John,
Thank you very much. Curious. The marriage of Eliz INFIELD to Jos BARNES on 16 Oct 1809 Bletsoe does exist in the records. I noticed the name Elizabeth PICKERING does appear elsewhere in Bedford in extracted records. It will probably remain a mystery.
Regards,
Fred
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Hello,
I can add a tiny bit more. Joseph Samuel's headstone on his grave at Wagga Wagga said he died 16 July 1878, aged 55 years.
John's Death Certificate states his parents as Joseph Barnes and E. Pickering.
Joseph's occupation as a Brewer.
A Joseph Samuel BARNES born 4 Feb 1821 mother Elizabeth & father Joseph, Occupation: Brewer's Servant. Address: Tarling Street, St. George in the East.
Coincidence?
For a Joseph BARNES There is conflicting info:
b. ? c. ? 30 Jul 1786 Bletsoe, Bedford, England OR Sidlesham, Sussex, England
Regards,
Fred
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Hello,
I have some more info. Susanna Eliza BARNES arrived on the 'Bussorah Merchant' on 11 Aug 1833. Susanna was a 20 year-old English servant girl from London. She had entered the Refuge for the Destitute in 1831, the record of interview stating that her father was a brewer's servant at 2 Collingwood St in Spitalfields, East London.
Her death reg in NSW in 1846 does not list any parents, just her age, 30.
An Elizabeth BARNES also arrived on the 'Bussorah Merchant' but so far I don't have any evidence that is a sibling.
We are looking for five children to a Joseph & Elizabeth:
Elizabeth b. abt 1811
John c. 27 Jun 1812 Bletsoe ?
William b. ?
Susanna c. 3 Dec 1815 Bletsoe
Samuel Joseph b. abt 1823
Nothing has been found so far to suggest William left England.
Regards,
Fred
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Hi John,
Yes I do have John's Death Certificate Reg No. 06635. Died 30 Aug 1863 at Wollenbeen, Burrangong. John was shot and killed by John O'Malley, Bush Ranger. His Father is Joseph Barnes. Occ. Brewer: Mother: Elizabeth Pickering. Where Born England. Time in Colony 22yrs in NSW. Married: London :Age at Marriage 21. Spouse Elizabeth King. Children of Marriage 5 Males 1 Female Living. 1 Male 2 Females Deceased.
Susannah Eliza Barnes Travelled on the Bussorah Merchant Arrival Date 11 Aug, 1833. She Married George Robert Nichols of Sydney a Widower. on the 16 Dec, 1837 Parish of Saint James. I have this Certificate.
Susannah Nichols Died Redfern Aged 30 years on the 12 Nov, 1846 Buried 13 Nov, 1846 Ceremony performed Parish of St, Lawrence Sydney. I have this Certificate.
Joseph Samuel Barnes died 16 July 1878 aged 55 years. Buried Presbyterian Section Wagga Wagga Monumental Cemetery.
Source: Wagga Wagga Advertiser Mr Joseph Barnes so well known in this district is, we regret to hear, very dangerously ill. At the time of going to press no favourable change had taken place and fears are much entertained of his recovery. He is at present staying at the Pastoral Hotel. to secure the best medical advice the town can afford.
Joseph Samuel Barnes is my GG Grandfather( Born 17 May 1824 London. Yet to be confirmed.) Squatter; took up "Yarranjerry" Station (37,000) in Feb, 1856. Married Elizabeth Jane Stinson. 6 June, 1848 Parish of Yass.
On Joseph"s headstone it has him as Emigrated to NSW 1840.
I found an entry for a Joseph Barnes. Arrived Port Jackson NSW 3 Sept 1840. Vessel Name "JANE" Perhaps some one would look this up, as I haven't been able to as yet.
Regards
Sandra
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Hello,
Reg# V18407324 45C/1840 BARNES GEORGE R JOHN ELIZABETH K
St Andrew's Scots Presbyterian in Sydney
If this is the arrival of George's parents
'Abbotsford'
Origin: London 1840 Nov 26
Destination: Sydney 1841 Apr 5
Barnes Mr and family
Then how can the baptism take place in 1840?
Fred
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Hello Sandy,
Welcome to RootsChat
I am sure Fred here will find your information interesting
but - tell me - where does it tell you that John Barnes was born/christened in Bletsoe . ?
Regards John
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What I haven't seen so far is any reference from Australia to Bletsoe. Is this a figment of an LDS member's imagination, or is there really some document in Oz that names the village and John's date of birth. The date of birth, without a baptism in Bletsoe, implies that it came either from a standalone source eg family bible, or is complete fiction!
Is there any evidence that John, Susannah Eliza, and Joseph Samuel were siblings?
Not sure if I've mentioned this before but there are no burials in Bletsoe of any Barnes post 1800 except William 72 in 1829 and Ann 78 in 1832. So I don't know what happened to Joseph and Elizabeth (Infield) who married in 1809
David
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Hello John,
I think this is 'Mission Impossible' given the information that is currently available. Let's start with Susanna:
A Susanna Barnes, daughter of Joseph and Elizabeth, baptised at Bletsoe on 3 Dec 1815. As I said I'm in SE Asia and don't have access to certain resources that are available in Sydney. So I can't check the shipping reel for the 'Bussorah Merchant'
to see what it says about Susanna. I don't know if it lists a place of birth or her parents or not. Also I don't have access to the source that says she "... had entered the Refuge for the Destitute in 1831" and two years later was offered the possibility of emigration which she took with her father's permission. I don't know what it might say about her father other than a brewer's servant at 2 Collingwood Street, Spitalfields, East London.
Re the connection between John and Joseph, I've already mentioned that Joseph was a witness at the marriage of John's son Thomas Alfred. Thomas and Joseph married sisters. Again, I don't have a copy of that certificate so I don't know if it specifically says 'Uncle' or if the witness is just 'a Mr BARNES' who lives in the area. Thomas married Isabella STINSON and the other witness was Isabella's sister Elizabeth Jane spouse of a John BARNES.
Also Thomas Alfred is mentioned in an Insolvency Record for Joseph Samuel BARNES. Again, I don't know if it specifically says they are nephew & uncle.
Is there a birth or baptism for a Joseph BARNES on 30 Jul 1786 at Bletsoe ? Yes
An extracted baptism for a Joseph BARNS - parents William & Anne. Impossible to show this Joseph married an Elizabeth in Bletsoe, had some children after 1812 (so they don't show on IGI as extracted entries) and later moved to London and worked as a brewer's servant, hence the items that tie that occupation and place together in Susanna's story of her parents and of John's death certificate that lists his father as Joseph and a brewer.
I don't have access to the source for this either "Joseph Samuel Barnes - father Joseph Barnes - mother Elizabeth. Father's occupation Brewer's Servant. Address: Tarling Street, St. George in the East"
Regards,
Fred
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Hi everyone,
In regard to Joseph Barnes and Elizabeth Barnes being Witnesses to Thomas Barnes and Isabella Stinson's Marriage. I quote. Source: St John's Church of England. Wagga Wagga Parish Register - Marriages.
Marriage Date: 16 Jan, 1866 at Berry Jerry.
Minister: Rev Samuel Fox Minister of the Church of England at Wagga Wagga.
Groom: Thomas Alfred Barnes. Storekeeper of Murrumburrah aged 29 years. born London England.
Father: John Barnes. Storekeeper, Mother: Elizabeth King Ellen.
Bride: Isabella Stinson, spinster of Berry Jerry, aged 23 years, born Cunningham Creek, Father: Samuel Stinson, Squatter, Mother Elizabeth McGee.
WITNESSES: Jos Barnes & Elizabeth Barnes.
In The Stinsons of North Berry Jerry Book. By Barbara Carmichael.
Isabella married Thomas Barnes on 16th Jan, 1866 at Berry Jerry Station. The witnesses at the Marriage were: Joseph Barnes, Thomas's uncle and his wife Elizabeth Jane Stinson., who was Isabella's sister.
Source: Gormly Index (on Microfiche held at CSU Regional Archives)
John Barnes of Murrumburrah, late of Sydney and Melbourne, formerly of 111 Wood St, Cheapside, London. was shot by bushrangers. Aged 51 years. Buried Yass 3 Sep. 1863 - Sydney Morning Herald 10 Sept 1863.
A Fred Allsopp supplied the information that John Barnes was born 27 June 1812 at Bletsoe. some time ago. I have tried to no avail to contact Fred. to establish where he got the information.
Someone call Doug answered a contact of mine. last year saying If Joseph Samuel is the Joseph in his family here is what he has on dated...
They were from Bletsoe, England, and my line (Joseph's brother John) emigrated to Australia, into Canada and finally the U.S. ???
Descendants of Joseph John Barnes.
1 Joseph John Barnes 1786- 1826
+Elizabeth Pickering
,,,,2 John (Frederick?) Barnes 1812-1863
........+Elizabeth King Ellen 1902-1886
.............3 William John Barnes 1834-1841
..............3 Thomas Alfred Barnes 1836-1902
............. 3 John Frederick Barnes 1837-1915
..............3 Elizabeth Jane Barnes 1839-1839
..............3 Mary Ellen Barnes 1839-1839
..............3 George Robert Barnes 1840-1920
..............3 William John Barnes 1842-
..............3 Edward Prior Barnes 1844-1900
.........................+Susannah Maria Gordon 1851-1927
........2 William Barnes 1815-
........2 Susanna Barnes 1816-
........2 Elizabeth Barnes 1817-
........2 Joseph Barnes 1824-
Regards
Sandra
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Perhaps Fred Allsop got the information from the member submission on the IGI!
But surely it was the Joseph Barnes who was baptised at Bletsoe on 30 July 1786 (the only Joseph baptised at Bletsoe) who married Elizabeth Infield, not Elizabeth Pickering, at Bletsoe on 16 Oct 1809.
Strangely there are no Barnes in the August 1803 Muster List of men aged 17 - 55 at Bletsoe, in which both Joseph and his father William should have appeared.
Joseph's putative parents, William and Ann, were probably the William who was buried in Bletsoe on 18 Oct 1829 age 72, and the Ann Annis age 78 buried on 6 Oct 1832.
The NBI has a burial of Joseph John Barnes age 48 at St Ethelburga Bishopsgate, City of London on 1 July 1826. Whether this is the plain Joseph from Bletsoe is debatable
Are William and Elizabeth born 1815 and 1817 the ones who appear on the IGI as being born in Isleworth? If so it's odd that Susanna should have been baptised in Bletsoe on 3 Dec 1815 (per fred2derf). I think it possible that the only way to John born c1812 is laterally
I'm getting confused! Who was the John who ended up in the US via Australia and Canada - the brother of Joseph baptised 1786? It might explain the LDS interest in this family and the unsourced member submission.
David
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Hello David,
Thanks for your thoughts. I don't think this will ever be solved. I'm still waiting for someone to explain how John and Elizabeth and son Thomas and several other children arrived in 1841 and they baptised George Robert in 1840 in NSW.
Fred
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Hi Guys,
No one has mentioned the Barnes Family in America. So I just thought I might copy what I found in the book Cootamundra Sons and Daughters. A collection of family stories from the Cootamundra District.2002.
Edward Prior Barnes, met Susanna Maria Gordon, daughter of a London solicitor, on a trip to London in 1871. The Married two years later in Balmain and made their home in Cootamundra, where they had 11 children, only seven of whom survived.
Edward Prior Barnes (John 1812 son) left Cootamundra in May 1896 because of ill health and lived in Sydney until his death in 1900. The remains were returned to Coolamundra for burial.
In 1902 Susanna Barnes married John James Miller, whom she had known for 29 years. He was the brother-in-law ot two of Susanna's daughters, Nellie and Hilda.
J J Miller and his wife, Susanna , sailed for Canada, c1903, settling in Vancouver. Before he left Australia J J established a home for his mother, Rebecca and sisters, Mary, Sarah and Jessie, in Sydney.
Six of Susanna's seven daughters (two of them with their husbands, Alexander Archibald and William Miller and families) joined the family in Canada, as did Compton South Miller (although Compton returned after 12 months in Canada).
The youngest Miller brother, Neil, was left in charge of the Miller family property, Littedale.
Maybe this is where the IGI activity comes from, for John Barnes, 1812.
Regards
Sandra
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Hi everyone
has anyone looked for the barnes family coming into Adelaide first then Sydney ?
This is where John Juniors wife came from and they arrived in Sydney around 1859 John and jane were married 1860.
silky
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Hello silky,
Thanks. Yes, it has been considered but nothing seems to fit. There are these registrations in Sydney. It would be good to get the exact dates one day.
Baptism Reg# V18407324 45C/1840 BARNES GEORGE R - JOHN ELIZABETH K
Death Reg# V1841680 25B/1841 BARNES WILLIAM J INFANT
Arrivals in Adelaide:
BARNES John arrived 1837-04-24 on Sarah & Elizabeth from Hull 1836-09-26 *** no mention of spouse and children.
BARNES John, wife, John arrived 1841-03-03 on Corsair (1) from London 1840-09-13 v Cape of Good Hope 1841-01-10 *** no mention of children and after the baptism in Sydney.
BARNES Elizabeth arrived 1839-02-09 on Platina from London *** Elizabeth by herself? But what about twins born 9 Jan 1839?
Regards,
Fred
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Hi Fred
Elizabeth Barnes King died 18th jan 1886 Cootamundra aged 83yrs and in my John Juniors Will he leaves money to his sister Elizabeth Ellen no surname maybe never married.??
I have not done any research passed John Junior .I have just started but it all seems confusing with different info coming from other places.(IGI) I really think that some people fill in there own thoughts without checking it first I have found that in my other lines without certs it is very hard.I havent got any yet as I am not a direct descendant of the Barnes family.
thanks Fred for your reply I am sorry I cant help with sorting it all out
silky
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Hello silky,
Yes, I'm not a direct descendant either and yes, it's a family with lots of unreliable records and lots of different sources. It's a branch I've not looked at for a long time because there's little chance of it all falling into place.
I have this which will answer your question:
Birth Reg# V18467327 45/1846 BARNES ELIZABETH M M JOHN ELIZABETH K
St Andrew's Scots Presbyterian in Sydney
Marriage # 4044/1881 ELLEN HARRY J BARNES ELIZABETH M M E COOTAMUNDRA
The Sydney Morning Herald - Thursday 19 May 1881 p.8
MARRIAGES
ELLEN-BARNES.-March 23, Cootamundra, by Rev. S. B. Holt, Harry James Ellen to Elizabeth Mary Maria Barnes.
Death Reg# 11892/1924 ELLEN ELIZABETH M M JOHN ELIZABETH K NORTH SYDNEY
Regards,
Fred
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thank fred
silky
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You're Welcome. :)
Fred
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Hello Sandy
Have noted your postings re the Barnes family of Cootamundra NSW and would like you to contact me please at (*). I am helping a friend with her family research and she is a direct descendant of Thomas Alfred Barnes.
Many thanks
Marion
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Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
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More stuff has come online since this thread started
Taken from images of parish registers
Baptisms
St George in the East, Middlesex.
11 Aug 1816 (born 29 Dec 1814) Susannah Eliza Barnes dau of Joseph and Elizabeth, servant. Born in the parish of Keysoe in the county of Bedford.
20 Sept 1818 (born 27 Jul 1818) Rebecca Barnes dau of Joseph & Elizabeth, labourer of Turner St
10 Jun 1821 (born 14 Feb 1821) Joseph Samuel Barnes son of Joseph & Elizabeth, Brewer's servant of Taling? St
The baptism of Susannah begs the question as to why she was baptised twice (or was she - the 3 Dec 1815 date may be fiction), but the 1816 baptism entry thankfully provides the evidence that links Joseph and Elizabeth to Beds, and Keysoe is only four miles from Bletsoe. As they seem to have been lax about baptising her promptly, perhaps John wasn't done at all.
A Susanna Barnes, daughter of Joseph and Elizabeth, baptised at Bletsoe on 3 Dec 1815. As I said I'm in SE Asia and don't have access to certain resources that are available in Sydney. So I can't check the shipping reel for the 'Bussorah Merchant'
to see what it says about Susanna. I don't know if it lists a place of birth or her parents or not. Also I don't have access to the source that says she "... had entered the Refuge for the Destitute in 1831" and two years later was offered the possibility of emigration which she took with her father's permission. I don't know what it might say about her father other than a brewer's servant at 2 Collingwood Street, Spitalfields, East London.
The above baptism, and her father's occupation in 1821 would seem to tie up very neatly with the Susannah Eliza who emigrated in 1833
Marriage. St Antholin & St John the Baptist, London
14 July 1833 John Barnes bach otp and Elizabeth King ELLEN spinster otp by banns. Both signed, Witnesses William Waller & Eliza Brewster
David
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Baptisms
11 Aug 1816 (born 29 Dec 1814) Susannah Eliza Barnes dau of Joseph and Elizabeth, servant. Born in the parish of Keysoe in the county of Bedford.
Good morning, with Keysoe baptisms not on the IGI: from the transcript there is a baptism of William son of Joseph & Elizabeth Barnes on 8 July 1810. That's the only Barnes there for that timespan.
cheers John
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Hi twinks
post two more times and then you can send me a personal message
silky
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MRS. ISABELLA BARNES. OBIT 1925
Mrs. Isabella Barnes, who had resided at Mosman for 20 years, died recently at her residence, Hendon, Punch-street, Mosman, at the age of 85 years. She was born at Cunningham Plains, near Cootamundra, and was the widow of the late Mr. J. A. Barnes, who 65 years ago established the Arm of Messrs, T. and G. Barnes, merchants, at Murrunburrah. The late Mr. Barnes, who was the original owner of the well-known stores at Cootamundra and Murrumburrah, was shot at Wallendbeen by O'Malley, of the Ben Hall gang of bushrangers The late Mrs. Barnes was once "stuck up" by bushrangers many years ago. Mrs.Barnes was a member of the Stinson family, pioneers of the Coolamon district.
The late Mrs Barnes is survived by three sons and three daughters. The sons are Mr, Alfred Barnes (of Messrs. Holdshlp, Barnes,& Co., solicitors), Dr. B. H. Barnes (Mosman), and Messrs.Arthur Barnes (Customs Department,) Reginald Barnes (A. M. L and Î P. Company), Thomas Barnes (Railway Survey Branch), and John Barnes (Mosman). The daughters are Mrs. Higgins (wife of Mr. P. R, Higgins, barrister), Mrs.Tindall, and Mrs, Fred Allsop.
SMH Sat 4 April 1925 NLA Newspapers online
Note: The writer has confused her husband as John Barnes when in reality it was his son Thomas Barnes.
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Isabella Barnes
A quick search found a current image of the house at Mosman NSW where Isabella lived for over 20 years before her death in 1925. The house is called 'Hendon', 4 Punch Street, Mosman NSW and was built in the Federation style about 1899.
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Thanks for the photo of the Mosman house.
I have recently started doing research on the family, and my father has also done a lot of research as well. If you have anything I can help with in particular, please let me know. I am a direct descendant of this family and have been putting quite a bit of info together as I can find bits and pieces.
Regards,
Philip.
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Hi phillip
are you direct from John and Jane Barnes?
silky
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Hi Silky,
My 3rd Great Grandfather was John Barnes (married to Elizabeth), and my Great Grandmother was Jane Barnes (married to Alfred Edward, son of Thomas whose Father was John).
Hope that answers your question...
Philip
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Fred
While I don't have a direct connection to the Barnes tree (John Barnes' wife was a great great grand aunt of mine), I was interested in all the information here and got specially intrigued by the problem you identified with George Barnes place of birth and the presumed date of arrival.
After investigating it and probably covering all the research sources you did, I'm sorry to say I'm no nearer in resolving the puzzle. I'd be very surprised if the NSW BDM record is wrong. Even though spelling issues do arise, this doesn't look like one. I also did a quick check for a UK birth record. Nothing there. So this looks to be correct. I also checked Trove for a birth notice but nothing there I could find.
Is it possible his birth was not registered in UK? Very unlikely I would have thought.
We know how difficult immigration records can be to research and I only found the the same possibilities you did. But have you tried to see if there is a UK emigration record? There could be a spelling issue here too which only luck will help to track down.
Regarding the apparent conflicts of DOB with his older brothers, I don't have a problem with that. Other records show the correct DOBs and I think you might be confusing dates of baptism.
Ian
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Hello Ian,
The baptism record for George at St Andrews Scots Church 27 September 1853 has his date of birth but no place of birth. About all I can say is that a Barnes family arrived in 1841 and that no birth reg can be found in England so it's still up in the air.
Re his older brothers I have not been able to verify the date of births in IGI that were privately submitted records. All I have in my tree are the extracted baptism records such as this one for John Frederick:
c. 12 Nov 1837 Saint Dunstan, Stepney, London, England
parents - John & Elizabeth King
King is a middle name.
Regards,
Fred
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Hi Fred
William John BARNES b 13/12/1834 Middlesex d 16/10/1841 Sydney
Thomas Alfred BARNES b 17/4/1835 Middlesex
John Frederick BARNES b 26/9/1837 Middlesex
Elizabeth Jane BARNES b 9/1/1939 England
Mary Ellen BARNES b 9/1/1839 England - twins
George Robert BARNES b 31/1/1840 Sydney ????
Elizabeth might have used 'King' as a middle name but her parents were Thomas ELLEN and Mary Elizabeth KING who were my 3rd great grandparents. She was the sister of Jane Selina CAMPBELL (nee ELLEN) who arrived in Sydney on 10/5/1863 with her children. As Jane came on an Assisted Passage, she needed a sponsor. Two independent records confirm she was met on arrival in Sydney by George Barnes. My guess is that George's mother Elizabeth was the true sponsor having encouraged her younger sister to emigrate after the death of her husband in London.
Hope this helps to clear up some things.
Ian
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William John, Thomas Alfred, and John Frederick were all baptised at St Dunstan Stepney on 12 Nov 1837, with nothing in the baptism register to indicate their dates of birth. Presumably these have been obtained from Australian records?
It wasn't merely the case that Elizabeth ELLEN might have used King as her middle name. She was actually baptised as Elizabeth King ELLEN, and married and signed as such as well.
Is it possible his birth was not registered in UK? Very unlikely I would have thought.
Very likely in fact. In the early days of civil registration, which started in 1837, many births weren't registered. I can't see registrations for Elizabeth Jane and Mary Ellen either. But if George was born in Australia his birth wouldn't have been recorded in England.
David
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Hi Fred
Then haven't you answered your own question? Viz he was born in UK but registered in Australia? His NSW birth certificate should surely confirm it one way or the other.
What i meant was: Why couldn't Elizabeth be using the name King as a double surname, viz King-Ellen? Her mother seems by some records to have retained her maiden name after her marriage.
Ian
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I didn't ask any questions! Surely Fred's valid point is that he has shipping records for the family arriving in 1841 and George's birth is recorded in Australia in 1840, which is a contradiction.
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I thought it was Fred that I had been exchanging with. Sorry.
I think we agree on the apparent contradiction originally posed by Fred. Can't we also agree that a possible resolution is that George was born in Middlesex but registered in NSW? The NSW birth certificate should hopefully verify that.
Ian
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He could have been born in London, or on board ship, or in NSW. Whichever one it was it doesn't get over the problem as to how his birth was registered in Australia before the apparent arrival of his family. Something doesn't add up, and I can't work out what it is!
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Unless you've seen the birth certificate which indicates an actual dd/mm/yyyy of registration in 1840, then I'm not sure you can be absolutely positive of the inconsistency. It certainly looks irreconcilable but I'd want to see the birth certificate to verify it one way or the other. The registration code indicates 1840 which would mean birth in 1840 (or 1839) and that would be good enough for me - normally. If it proves to be in 1840 then (unless the NSW BDM was in the practice of backdating!), then we have to reject the evidence (which is not absolute) that the family arrived in 1841 - despite no alternatives appearing to exist.
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Hello Ian,
I have found nothing anywhere that has the birth dates you have listed. What is the source?
Regards,
Fred
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The old 'Birth' records are baptism records in most cases. For Baptists they are records of the registration of a birth.
I have a NSW baptism record for another individual in my tree who was born in England. The NSW record has the correct date of birth but does not indicate where born.
Similarly, the NSW baptism record for George Robert has date of birth as 31 January 1840 with no indication where born. Baptism date 27 September 1853.
It was the policy to indicate the year of birth as the year when the records were added to the historical on-line index, hence the record being:
V18407324 45C/1840 BARNES GEORGE R JOHN ELIZABETH K
There are numerous errors in the index with the old church records. I have one marriage that was in 1855 yet the date in the index is 1849.
The copy of the Baptism record that is on film contains the details required to be sent to the Registrar General. It is possible that the actual Scots Church register contains more information.
I can't prove yet that the family on the Barque 'Abbotsford' in 1841 is the same family. The record simply says "Mr. Barnes and family."
Regards,
Fred
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Hi Fred!
I must admit the birth dates were sourced from someone's tree with no original citations. It shouldn't be too hard to find who first put them up and make contact with them.
I'm only suggesting that a full birth certificate may have some clue on it to help solve the problem. Eg Who was the informant and their residence? Any special annotations? Costs about $30 and would seem worth getting in this case.
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Hello Ian,
Yes, a full Birth Certificate should include everything on the St. Andrew's Scots Church register.
The records that are on film are on forms that have columns for information required by the Registrar General. There is no column for "Where born" on it.
Regards,
Fred.
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Hello Ian,
Re 'King' and 'Ellen' there are errors in some records and trees that have Elizabeth's family name as King.
William John was baptised at the same time as George, as was Edward Prior and Elizabeth Mary Maria.
Regards,
Fred
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Re King. It seems she adopted this as a middle name from her mothers maiden name. Likewise Elizabeth's sister Jane Selina CAMPBELL (née ELLEN) named her daughter Jane Ellen CAMPBELL.
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She didn't adopt King as her middle name. As was often the case, she was given it by her parents when she was baptised
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Fred
In case you're interested...
Looking over the recent posts, I realise I made an error when referring to George Barnes meeting Jane Selina and family on arrival. It should have read Edward Prior Barnes.
Ian
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I am a direct descendant of John Barnes and Elizabeth King Ellen
My Grandmother on my father's side was one of Susanna and Edward Barnes 7 daughters her name was Marion sister to Nellie and Hilda. Marion married Thomas Dowling in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada and was my fathers mother and he was born April 20, 1918 his name was Thomas Barnes Dowling and passed away October 13, 1994 ..
Thank you so much for what you have found so far regarding the history of my family.
Deb
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Welcome to Rootschat Deb!
Re-reading this thread I'm not sure that we ever resolved the question of the mother of John Barnes. Or even if it's resolvable! Joseph Barnes married Elizabeth Infield in Bletsoe on 16 Oct 1809 whereas John's death certificate in Australia names his mother as E. Pickering. Was whoever gave the information to the registrar in Australia misinformed/in error about the late John's mother?
David
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Thank you David so much for replying to my post .. I made an error in my Grandmothers name it was Ivy Fenner Barnes .. not Marian (that was my grandmother on my mothers side). this is all new to me so I appreciate the help ..
Thank you
Deb
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Hi Barnes descendants .
I am a descendant of John F Barnes mayor of Cootamundra and Jane.Looking for information on this family Johns father John Barnes was killed by John Omara bushranger. John senior was a biscuit maker
At one time in Victoria then to Sydney where he made biscuits.He opened a store at Murrumburrah where he was killed.Have pictures of graves
John F and jane had a daughter married to an Allsopp.
silky
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Whoops John Barnes was killed by a member of Ben halls gang called John Omeally. ;D
silky