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Family History Documents and Artefacts => FH Documents and Artefacts => Topic started by: Sandy H on Monday 30 March 09 00:31 BST (UK)
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Hi,
My mother gave me an old linen garment. It is very simple with short sleeves, no lace or anything. Just ruffles on the short sleeves. The neckline is HUGE (about 2 ft wide) and there are no drawstrings or casings for a drawstring. I think it is an undergarment for a female, but she must have been 4 ft tall and about 3 ft wide, with shoulders like a modern football player! There is some very fine embroidery at the neckline in red that says S*K 6 1816. This comes from my Kindred family in Suffolk, Eng. I have quite a bit of info about this family, but no females with the letter "S" during this time period.
Any idea what type of garment this might be? Under garment, maternity garment, or possibly burial garment? And why it is so wide at the neck? My Kindreds were very short and none of them fat or wide. My own GF Kindred was 4'11" and about 85 lbs. This garment was in his possession and passed down to me.
Any help would be appreciated!
Sandy
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Hi Sandy :)
Sounds intriguing! Any chance of a photo of it, to get a better idea of what it looks like?
It sounds like your describing some of my childhood dressmaking efforts! ::) :P
Cheers
Prue
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:)
Hi SandyH
My guess that this would be a female's modesty garment. That is, one used when a lady was bathing in the iron tub, in front of the fire, in her bedchamber, either in the presence of servants, or possibly, depending on the quality of the garment, bathing, in front of the rest of the family, in the living room of an humble cottage?
Cheers
Danchaslyn
:)
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Dan,
Love your suggestion ... reminded me suddenly of the days when my mother used to wash me in a tub in front of the fire in winter! too young, thank goodness, to need such a garment
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;)
Hi Tugboatannie
What a hoot,..................waterhoot,! Were you always involved with water? ???
Such a delightful picture of you in the tub, in front of the fire!! ;D
As youngsters, in the colonies, 8) sometimes our bathing water was heated, by fires under old tin drums, balanced on 'stilts', just outside the bathroom window. Fortunately pipes would lead inside, to the bath taps. Hot water and bathing, had to be rationed.
Cheers
Danchaslyn
:D
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Hi Dan,
Our bathroom had a wood-chip heater which obviously was not put into operation every day! So, out came the old tin tub (my baby bath, if I remember correctly) and, in turns, we washed in front of the fire!
Apparently an old "colonial" habit!!!
Bye from an ex-ozzie (exiled in France for many years now) ... "Tugboat Annie" is a legacy from my godmother! Not quite sure what that implied???
Bye
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This is probably totally off the wall but could it have been some type of top for a nursing mother?
Sounds like it could have been easily slipped down to nurse on one breast while keeping the other covered.
dollylee
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:)
Hi TugboatAnnie ;D
You have such a delightful name, and it conjures up images of anything but France! Nor Ozland! Had a great trip to Paris, Nov 07, loved it, wish to repeat the experience, pity the Euro is on a par with the £ Sterling! :-[
So 'Colonial' washing was widespread, naturally we also swam in dams and rivers to ablute. :o
Back to your 'garment', wish a "Victorian Expert" would tell us if it is for bathing in, or, like Dollylee says, perhaps for 'nursing'? ???
bye for now
Danchaslyn
:D
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Hi Prue, :D
Finally have photos of garment. It is so big and so wide, I had trouble getting a good picture of it! The neckline is too wide to put it on a hanger.
I like Dan's idea of it being a modesty garment and also Dollylee's idea about it being a nursing garment. Very good possiblities. What about the initials and date? Could it be her birthdate, wedding date, or possibly the birth date of a baby? Does anyone have any thoughts on this??
Cheers
Sandy H
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Greetings Everyone! :)
New to rootschat. Photos may be a bit large. Photo of wide neckline.
Regards,
Sandy H
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:)
Hi Sandy H
Great pics, thank you................could your tape measure be an heirloom, to? (Sorry!) ::)
;D
Even more so think the garment is for taking a bath in, and that the date could be the date it was handmade? ???
Cheers
Danchaslyn
:)
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Hi Sandy!
Glad the picture instructions helped and good to see the lovely garment in all its glory! :D
I agree that the initials and date are when it was made, and the initials are who made it/who owned it; this may have also helped if garments were sent out to launder (built in ID).
I think it is probably an undergarment of some kind, most likely a shift, although most of the ones I've looked at (online) have either a gathered or drawstring neckline. Otherwise they are identical to this one. I'm not an expert on Regency clothing or social mores so I don't know whether ladies wore modesty garments while bathing - if they did, though, would these not be more closed at the neckline? I imagine if a muslin shift like this got wet, with such a huge neckline it would droop down to the nether regions!! :o ;D
Prue
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Hi Sandy, It is a chemise and would be worn under the corsets to protect the skin from the stiff corset and keep the corset clean . The neckline was low so it would not be seen under a low necked dress.Why they were so wide I am not sure, they could be worn over the crinoline cage if they were wide but it would have been more comfy to wear them under . I have several inherited from an old lady I knew but they are well before her time ,she would have been born about the 1890`s and they are definitely adult garments. Exquisite stitching, all by hand . Made from soft smooth cotton . What a lovely thing to have from your family. The marks could be initials and a date or a laundry code mark. Viktoria
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Hello Everyone! :D
So many good ideas! Prue & Viktoria, I also like your idea that it is a chemise. That is what I originally thought it was. I was just baffled at the size of it, especially the huge neckline. It seems like it would have been uncomfortable to wear..always falling off at the shoulders!
I agree with everyone that the initials and date indicate who made it and wore it. I hadn't thought about laundry being sent out, but that also makes sense.
Now, the only problem I have is figuring out who S.K. is. I'm sure the "K" is for Kindred because it came from my Kindred family. I have quite a bit of info for this family line, but there are no females with a first name starting with "S" during that time period. The most likely female for the time is named Lucy Kindred, her mother-in-law was named Mary, and Lucy's daughter-in-law, Susan Winter Kindred, wasn't born until 1817. Susan is the only "S" I have. Lucy had several daughters, but none with an "S" name. Mary was born abt 1755 & died in 1801. I don't have a family group for her. Maybe it belonged to one of her daughters.
This problem (date & initials) is one of the reasons I posted on rootschat. I thought maybe there might be a custom or something relating to pregnancy, in which a lady would stitch on the date.
I am new to rootschat and I love it! What fun! You have all helped so much with my Kindred family. Thank you!
Regards ;)
Sandy H
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:)
Hi Sandy H
I read viktoria's posting with interest, as also PrueM's and I'm also so glad that you are as happy with RootsChat as I am.........what a great site. ;)
Good luck with finding out all you wish to know about your Kindreds. ;D
Please don't take the embroidered date to literally, it's quite possible that it could be Susan's and may have been commerating the pregnancy onwards.
I'm still not entirely happy with the idea that its a chemise. All the ones I have seen have drawstrings and/or button up fronts and casings for the drawstrings. Also, you say that your garment is linen? Is the weave fairly coarse? ???
Cheers
Danchaslyn
:)
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Hi Dan :D
The garment is linen. To me the weave is the quality of linen napkins. The weave seems tight. There are a few nubs on it, but that could be wear and tear, since it is almost 200 years old.
The stitching is exceedingly fine, but it is not a fancy garment. No lace or anything. The ruffles on the sleeve are pretty simple. Do you think a chemise would be a little fancier and have lace & ribbons maybe?
The garment is in perfect condition, no wear, tear, frays, or rips. I think that is blood on the front below the initials. (possible DNA!)....just kidding...I think they would have to snip that portion out and I wouldn't dare!
I have given some thought to possibly hand-washing it, but since it is old and so stained, I don't really know if cleaning would much improve it.
Cheers
Sandy H ;)
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Have you thought about getting in touch with a museum of costume for advice? They might be able to help tell you what it was used for and tell you how to clean it. There is one in Manchester, currently closed for renovation, one in Bath and the V&A in London cover clothing as well I think. If you google them they should all come up and have contact details on them somehwere.
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...or contact a textiles conservator: http://www.conservationregister.com/find-a-conservator.asp?id=2
Don't attempt to wash it until you get professional advice. Most of the products we use today (laundry whiteners, bleaches etc) may work to brighten the fabric, but may actually cause it to deteriorate faster in the future.
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Yes, and everything today, even mild hand soap, has bleach in it, and bleach is alkaline, so who knows what that would do to the proper pH of the fabric...
A conservator might suggest a specialized mild textile soap like Woolite, but check first.
What an interesting thread!
Cheers,
China
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Thank you Hazel, Prue, & China for your advice!
I will take your advice and I promise I will not wash it until I have contacted someone who knows if I should even wash it at all.
Thank you for the link. I live in the US and I'm not sure I would know where to even look for such advice. I guess that's what Google is for! Our rellies would never believe the convenience of the internet! We're all hooked now...can't live without it.
Cheers
Sandy ;)
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Hi Sandy,
Sorry, didn't realise you were in the US, here's the link to the AIC Find A Conservator webpage:
http://aic.stanford.edu/public/select.html
It's a bit more fiddly to use than the UK one, but hopefully you'll find someone :)
Alternatively, as already suggested, a museum with conservation staff will be able to give you some advice.
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Good idea! ;) About a museum conservator.
Thanks!
Sandy
PS. I live in the "sticks" as they call it here in rural Oregon. Everything is more
difficult!
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Hi SandyH,
I've been searching (without success) for a thread where a RootsChatter took PrueM's ever-excellent advice and had a most beautiful christening robe (as I recall - certainly a baby garment) professionally restored. The result was utterly incredible as shown by the photos on RC.
Perhaps Prue or someone else can find it and give you the link.
I'm sure it will encourage you to follow Prue's advice. :)
Your chemise (or whatever it is) is quite fascinating.
Best of luck,
JAP
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Cheers JAP ;) :)
I should have thought to link to that; here 'tis: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,361104.0.html
Prue
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Dearest Prue,
Siouxsie's gorgeous PINAFORE, of course!
Ahhhh .......
Stupid JAP! :-[
A stunning garment and a most amazing restoration.
Thank you so very much Prue for providing the link.
SandyH, I hope you'll enjoy that story of how a garment can be so beautifully restored.
Kindest regards to all,
JAP
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Dear JAP & Prue, :)
Funny thing. I just found RC about a week ago and the first thread that I read was the one about Siouxsie's pinafore! That is what inspired me to post a topic about this funny old garment in the first place!
By the way, my mum has in her possession Grandpa Kindred's christening gown. It is about three feet long. It is full of tucks and ruffles. Amazingly fine handwork and stitching. Grandpa's parents were both "Master Drapers", so I don't know who made it, or if the gown came from a generation before.
About 20 yrs ago, I decided that I wanted to use it for my baby daughter, so horror of horrors, I hand-washed it with Snowy or Woolite (can't remember). Very gentle product...no bleach or anything. It turned out gorgeous!
I took photos of it (no digitals back then). It was hard to get up close to show the tiny details because the gown was so long. I would really have to dig deep to find those old pics and maybe the negatives.
The gown, alas, may have "gone missing". It was passed around the family for my sisters and cousins to use. Ownership is shared between my mum and her sister and can be a touchy subject among the family. I will ask my mum next time I talk to her. She is heading to Reno to visit her sis for her 80th Birthday. Good time to pick up the Christening gown, if they have it.
I still wouldn't have access though, because my mum lives 1000 miles away in Southern California.
Cheers
Sandy ;)
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:)
Hi Sandy H
You are a lucky girl, what lovely heirlooms you have........I've been so intrigued by your Chemise that on your behalf, I've sought the considered opinion of Ruth Goodman.
Ruth, here in the UK needs no introduction, and as you may well have heard of Ruth, but just in case not, as you are in the USA, she is an Historian, specializing in period clothing, all aspects of, including the making of replicas and is an adviser, not only to museums, collection and film-sets, an all round amazing historically focused person.
Ruth has taken part personally in many TV historical productions, including the recent BBC2 TV production, "A Victorian Farm'. A delightful and fascinating series, where she passed on many facets of her amazing knowledge to viewers.
I sent pics of your Chemise to Ruth and she says its certainly indicative of a Chemise made round about 1816, 'possibly of a work a day sort, in a well off, but not super rich family.'
She also said that 'the date should not be taken to literally, as it may well be commemorative (or even a shelf mark or reference mark in some way) rather than an actual date.'
Good luck Sandy with sourcing 'your' christening gown!
Best wishes
Danchaslyn
:)
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Hello Dan! :)
It would seem that you have found the answer for us! Because it was so plain, I was leaning toward your opinion that it was a modesty garment for bathing. I do know that such garments were used back when...especially in small homes.
You have the trump card, so to speak. Since Ruth is an expert and well-respected, she must be right! Bravo, Dan, good work!! ;)
She hit the nail on the head regarding the Kindred's financial condition. As far as I know, they were just that...."well off, but not super rich".
It is so nice to finally know what this odd garment really is. My mum will be so thrilled to hear about the garment and my rootschat experience! Haven't talked to her in about a week, so she doesn't know about this research.
Photos of Christening gown are somewhere in the closet from hell! If I quit playing with genealogy and such on the Internet, maybe I would find the time to clean and organize that closet. Who knows what I might find in there! We had a cat "go missing" a few years ago, maybe that's where she went! Just kidding!!! ;D
Thank you so much for going out of your way to find an expert opinion!
Best Regards,
Sandy
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Glad you are now sure what the garment is. I had not realised those I have are were so old .I had thought Victorian, perhaps 1870`s. The lady I inherited mine from was a big girl! And so would have needed wide chemises but even so they are extraordinarely wide. I also have exquisite baby gowns in lawn,knickers where there are two seperate legs on a waistband, nightdresses , so much bedlinen and this lady`s , wedding dress and an evening dress. A lot of small cloths for trays and her Mrs.Beeton`s book of Houshold Management and her hand-written recipe book . She had no children so these things were given to me by her young in-laws who did not want them. I took them to Manchester`s Museum of Costume but they had good examples already.I enjoy having them and had to wash them in Lux as they were not in the best condition.Most of the grubbiness has come out
and no obvious damage done.C heerio .Viktoria.
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:)
Hello Sandy H
Well, it so heartening to know that your mother, especially will be so happy.......and, just like yourself, because the garment is so plain, I did think it was a bathing garment. :-\
All credit must go to Ruth for her expertise and kindness in helping us, without her we might still be a little lost, or floundering around after red herrings about the date. :D
I'm in exactly your position, enjoying spending so much time on Roots Chat and not doing what I should be doing......................I'm finding out exciting results on my own maternal Aitken side of the family, spread from Scotland, to India, to Island of St Helena, South Africa and America and Canada. Also, for my partner, the Lynch and Cooks, of Hull, Yorkshire, England, and Kent and possibly Ireland. It certainly keeps one busy! :o
And the RootsChat folk are so kind and helpful! ;D
Cheers for now
Danchaslyn
:)
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:)
Hello Viktoria
You certainly have quite a collection,......the clothing sounds lovely and, well, as for Mrs Beeton's I would give my eye teeth for her books and works. >:(
What shame the Manchester museum wouldn't take the clothing from you.........I believe these garments should be preserved, by the experts, as best as possibly and that all can get a chance to see how our ancestors lived, worked and played. ::)
Would there possibly be a specialist clothing section, or museum you could search on the internet, who would be only to glad to display your items for you? Maybe even the National Trust for one of their properties, or Scottish Heritage, or someone?! ???
You were lucky to find Lux, I haven't been able to find it locally in Scotland! :-[ ???
Best wishes
Danchaslyn
:)
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Hello Danchaslyn, I do use these items from time to time .I give very informal talks to Ladies`groups in my area when a proper speaker has let them down.However now that I know they are so much older than I at first thought I,m going to treasure them better. The lady who owned them wrote such funny things in her recipe book, everything was costed out and and any economies that could be made noted,although she was never in any financial difficulty.Her comments at the end of one cake recipe are:- "Allow to cool completely then store in an airtight tin for a week, safe from husbands,children and mice".I met her when I lived abroad, she was English married to a foreigner and lived in his country which was occupied in the war.The German High Command moved in to their home which was on a hill. The water supply had been cut off previously as it was not pure and they had to find another supply which was .Her husband switched back to the impure supply just before they left their house- needless to say the G.H.C all got typhoid-"it was my little war effort"her husband said!!! "well,they didn`t ask ,just took" Viktoria.
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Hello Viktoria
What a fascinating story about the occupation and the typhoid, almost like an instance of 'germ warfare', in this instance 'underground germ warfare'! :-X
Also, how wonderful that your collection is sometimes shown to others, that's great and very encouraging and how marvellous that you can give talks on your family history like this. Know what you mean about suddenly realising that something is more 'valuable' than you first thought! :o
Just love your story about the personalized cookbook, what a quaint comment about the husband, kids and mice! I love it!!! ;D
I wish you well Viktoria and hope you're having a great holiday weekend........ 8)
Cheers
Danchaslyn
:)
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Thanks Danchaslyn,hope you are too. My son is coming home for a few days next weekend for his 50th Birthday so
that will be nice as we are going out for a meal,all the family -10 of us.We only get together a few times a year now so these occasions are precious.When our "kids" get chatting together I accuse them of planning which home they are going to put us(my husband and I-that sounds very Royal) in!.
Cheerio and thanks again. Viktoria.
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Hello Viktoria
Hope you have a great weekend.................I've sent you a personal message to.
Cheers
Danchaslyn
:)
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Hey Sandy
I checked my tree and no dates come close apart from a Sarah Kindred June 1818.....so now I've looked at the photograph a couple of additional thoughts:-
Could it be a maternity undergarment, therefore the relative was pregnant a the time it was made and we should not be looking at birth dates of June 1816, but more than likely pregnancy dates........could it be a summer undervest for a man who worked in the fields?
Cheers
Paul