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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Yorkshire (East Riding & York) => England => Yorkshire (East Riding & York) Lookup Requests => Topic started by: OLFEN1 on Monday 30 March 09 16:37 BST (UK)
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Can anyone help me please, as I have hit a brick wall. I am searching for the Ellington family in Sculcoates Hull. I have a Harriet Ellington b. abt 1811, she married Thomas Wilson 1833 at St. Mary's Sculcoates. It states they were both of this parish, and the that it was by Banns. I have been unable to find the family on the 1841 Census. By then, they had a son Daniel b. 1834. Harriet died 1848 in Hull, and it states on her death certificate that her age was 37. I have been researching her for some years now with not much success. I know of a Harriet born 1802 in Preston nr Hedon, also Harriet born 1814 Lambeth Surrey. I also know of a Harriet Ellington in Beverley at this time, but it turns out not to be my Harriet. Please can some one put me out of my misery.
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Hi OLFEN1,
Welcome to Rootschat.
Did the marriage entry in the PRs say if Harriet was a spinster when she married in 1833? There's always a possibility that Ellington wasn't her maiden name.
Otherwise, why have you discounted the Harriet from Beverley? Does she turn up on the census married to someone else?
I notice - according to the IGI - the Harriet from Lambeth, Surrey was actually born in 1812. It's unlikely that she's yours but possible - right timescale. We really need to find her on the 1841 census to see if she indicates that she was born in or out of county.
I'm sure there's a Rootschatter out there with an Ancestry subscription who'll come riding to the rescue any minute now... ;D
Jill
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Hello Olfen1,
I hope this doesn't add to the confusion, but on the 1841 census,
Ref HO107/1229 Folio 19, Page 6,
Butcher Row, Beverley,
Harriet Wilson 25 widow (crossed out) , Born in County
Richard Ellinton 10 born in county
William Ellinton 9 born in county
It's odd, I know, because there is no Daniel on the list (unless he was with grandparents somewhere?)
Could Harriet have had children before she was married?
Yorkslass
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Hi Jill and Yorkslass, thank you for replies. I found the Harriet Ellington on the 1841 Census, and traced her thinking she was my Harriet. But it turns out, she married someone else in 1840 at All Saints, Hull. As for my Harriet and Thomas Wilson, I know they were living at 3, Simpson's Gallery, 38, Little Queen St, Hull. This is where she died. I have searched the Census for this place, but cannot find it, I have even been in contact with Archives in London. They replied that the Census was complete, but as I say, I cannot find the place. She was a spinster when she married Thomas, and also elliterate, so that discounted another theory of mine that she may have been the daughter of a Thomas Ellington in Beverley, but he turns out to be a teacher, so it is hardly unlikely, he would leave Harriet without any education. She sign the marriage with an x. Thomas Wilson was a "Dock Labourer" by the way, and I feel sure they must have stayed in the area all the time.
I have found other Ellington's in Sculcoates around the time I am searching, but as yet no connections.
Once again, Thanks
Olfen1
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Hi Olfen
Do you have the 1851 cencus with Thomas Wilson and his new wife..if not I can post it for you
Jane
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Yesterday, I saw Little Queen Street on the 1841 - I think it might have been District 15, Mynot ?
No sign of your names tho :(
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Oh dear! There's a Harriet Wilson on the 1841 census in Hull Gaol. Only details are that she's 30 , born about 1811 in Yorkshire.
Probably not yours? ???
I still can't find Daniel in 1841.
Jill
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I cant find him either Jill ??? so its not just you LOL!!
Jane
Im off to make coffee and have a think ;D
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Hi Jane, yes I have the 1851 Census for the family. You can see why I am having the problem though with Harriet. I had seen the Harriet in the Jail, but she was alongside a William Wilson. Funnily enough, there is a Thomas Wilson later on in the pages. So whether it is her, I can't be sure. I don't know of a William on the Wilson side of Thomas's family, but I suppose it is possible.
Thanks for your help on this.
Ol.
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Hi LKL, thank you for that, but I have seen that on the Census. It appears that only the top of Little Queen St is on there, and I was informed it was a long street in it's day.
Ol
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ah, I did wonder - altho the schedule numbers seem contiguous, so i wonder if it was to be split across districts, but they messed up ?
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Hi Yorkslass, thanks for that, I have followed this Harriet in Beverley through, and she is definitely not mine. She was using the surname Wilson and married a Joseph Dale in 1841. There seems something funny going on with this Harriet though, whether she was related to my Harriet I don't know. I even sent for her marriage certificate to see if it would give me any more info on her, but sadly it doesn't. I was hoping it would give her fathers name and occupation but it was blank. Her eldest son Richard was a stonemason. And my Daniel Wilson [ son of Thomas & Harriet] was a stonemason as well. Spooky.
Ol
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Hi Jill, I suppose it's possible that it was split in some way. But I have tried searching all I can with no luck.
Ol
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Hi Sisterjane, thanks for the offer, but I have already got it. But thank you all the same.
Ol
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Hi Yorkslass, thanks for that, I have followed this Harriet in Beverley through, and she is definitely not mine. She was using the surname Wilson and married a Joseph Dale in 1841. There seems something funny going on with this Harriet though, whether she was related to my Harriet I don't know. I even sent for her marriage certificate to see if it would give me any more info on her, but sadly it doesn't. I was hoping it would give her fathers name and occupation but it was blank. Her eldest son Richard was a stonemason. And my Daniel Wilson [ son of Thomas & Harriet] was a stonemason as well. Spooky.
Ol
I may be missing something here (it has been known! ) but doesn't all this prove that the Beverley Harriet IS yours?
I looked on the IGI for the Richard & William Ellinton that Yorkslass found on the 1841 census living with Harriet Wilson (N.B. 'widow crossed out'). I couldn't find Richard, but William is baptised in Beverley 1832, son of Harriett Ellington. So, it looks as if both boys are illegitimate.
Why would they be living with a woman named Harriet Wilson in 1841 if that Harriet wasn't their mother? it would be one hell of a coincidence otherwise.
1. She obviously told the 1841 enumerator at first that she was widowed and it was then crossed out. Does this mean that she and Thomas Wilson were separated?
2. Where is Daniel (I'm assuming he didn't die in infancy?). Is he with Thomas Wilson? Have you found Thomas Wilson on the 1841 census? Were there any other children that you know of to Thomas & Harriet?
3. Is the Beverley Harriet on the IGI? I can't find her now, though I thought I'd found her earlier today! Was she illegitimate - as suggested by the 1841 marriage cert? Or was she (whisper it!) deliberately withholding information because she was committing bigamy? It happened!! (I'm determined to get her clapped in irons one way or another!!! ;D).
I'd be interested to know your thinking behind dismissing the Beverley Harriet as yours - other than the fact that she married someone else in 1841.
Jill
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I see what you mean about Harriot marrying Joseph Dales in 1841 :o
On the 1851 cencus they are in Beverley with her children Richard and William..Strange about Richard though with his surname Foreman and according to IGI he is Richard Foreman chrisened 1831 in Beverley with father John Foreman and mother Harriet.....Weird or what !!
Harriot died in Beverley in 1858 and Joseph died also in Beverley in 1859...and Richard Foreman also died 1859 in Beverley....and also it looks like William Ellington also died 1856 in Beverley...its all very strange and sounds rather sad too :-\
Jane
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Hi Jill, I have thought along these lines myself at some point, but dismissed it as the Harriet in Beverley is still around on the 1851 Census, were as my Harriet died 1848, I have her death certificate as I told you.
Curiously, I have found a Daniel Wilson aged 6 yrs in Baston Lincs on the 1841 Census. He is with a Mary Porter. It states, Daniel was not born in the county of Lincs, were as this Mary Porter was. She gives her age as 50. Now assuming that my Harriet and Thomas were in the nick, could be that Daniel was being looked after by Mary Porter. Another curious thing, on the same Lincs Census there are a family of Banks on there, I wonder if there is any relation of Mary Banks who later married Thomas Wilson in 1849. As for the children, Thomas and Harriet had three children, Daniel b. 1834, Elizabeth b. 1843, Ellen b. 1847.
What do you think.
Ol
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Hi Jane, thanks for that, I had come to the same conclusion myself.
As I have just written to Jill about what I think may have happened, see what you think and let me know.
Ol
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This is a real humdinger, isn't it? ::)
Were there 2 Harriet Ellingtons or just one who had a very colourful (if short) life?
I'd found Daniel Wilson's baptism on the IGI in Drypool in Sep 1833 s/o Thomas & Harriet, but you say 1834? So are there 2 Daniels? Also children of Thos & Harriet Wilson baptised in Drypool: May 1830 Elizabeth, Dec 1835 Sarah Elizabeth. So, seemingly, Thomas & Harriet only married after the births of the first 2 children in Dec 1833?
If the Richard Ellinton/Foreman was born/baptised in Beverley Jan 1831 s/o John & Harriet and William Ellinton was born/baptised in Beverley Nov 1832 s/o Harriet - what happened to John Foreman? I can't see a marriage!!
Time-wise, I think it's just possible for the same Harriet to have had all of the above children, but a bit close together and fathers are random!
I wonder if it would be possible to find out what the Harriet and Thomas Wilson who were in jail in 1841 had done? Hull Archives might be able to help.
Also, it would be great if we could make a family connection between the Wilson/Ellingtons and the Mary Porter you found with Daniel in Lincs. Do you know where Thomas Wilson originated?
Jill
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Hi Jill, I have made a big mistake. The Daniel I found on the 1841 Census, was actually at Easton Northants. On the record I have, it didn't give County, and I have just checked and found out my mistake. As for Thomas Wilson in Hull gaol, I have noticed that this Thomas was not born in Yorkshire, so cannot be my Thomas. Mine was born in Hull chr. St. Mary's. Now I am having a flight of fancy here, and maybe way off the mark, but do you think it is possible that my Thomas was calling himself William for some reason, I don't know why I should think of it, but what do you think.
There's not much on the IGI for Northants, although I do know that there were Ellington's in the area. I found this out on GenesReunited.
Ol
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Hi Ol
Just looking at the 51/61 cencus Thomas and Harriets dau Ellen is on the 1861 but is nowhere to be found in 1851!!Have you any idea where she was ?
Jane
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Hi Jane, Ellen Wilson is on the 1851 Census with her family at 3, Simpson's Gallery, 38, Little Queen st. This is the address where her Mother Harriet died. Ellen is then on the 1861 Census at 5, Primrose Place, South St. Along with the family. She is next on the 1871 Census at 5, Brunswick Ave, by this time she had married a Anthony Depaillett in 1866 All Saints, Hull. Sometime between 1871 and 1881, Anthony died [possibly lost at sea] and Ellen went on to marry George Wilkinson. They are on the 1881 Census at 2, pleasant Place, English St. Elizabeth, her sister married George Stonehouse 1865 All Saints. Hull. I Have them at 1, Eva Place, Adalaide St, on the 1871 Census. And on the 1891 Census at 11, St. Marks Square, 27, St. James St. Along with 8 children & 1 Grandchild.
Ol
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Hi Jill, in reply to your mentioning the question od Daniel's bpt. I thought myself for a long while that it was him, but I have since found out there were 4 Thomas Wilson's who went on to marry Harriet's in Drypool. And as My Thomas & Harriet married St. Mary's Sculcoates, I had to put the bpt to one side. I have been unable to find the bptsms for none of their children as yet. I have been in touch with the decendants of the three children for Thomas & Harriet, this is how I have found them on the Census.
Ol
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Hi again Ol...
Im looking at the 1851 Cencus HO107/2363/104/7
now unless im looking at the wrong entry Ellen Wilson is not on there ???...what ref No do you have for her
Jane
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Hi all,
No I can't see her there either, though that is Thomas and his "new" wife, Mary Ann.
I think Ol, you've got the house numbers mixed up with the "schedule" numbers.
Also, the Simpsons Gallery is "Siminson's Gallery".
I found something interesting about Little Queen Street, which might explain why it's not all on the 1841 census.
One of my books about "Old Hull" says the "1842 plan of Hull shows the street named for the first time, the name an obvious reference to the new Queen, Victoria, who ascended the throne in 1837". It goes on to say this street was formerly known as "Portass Gardens" - I know it doesn't help to find Thomas and Harriet.....
This is certainly a mysterious family, and I'm as keen to find out about them as the rest of you are!!
Yorkslass
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Hi Jane & Jill, I have the printout for the 1851 Census, which does say Siminson Gallery as you say. The reference I have 107/2363 Myton 3. 104v.
Thomas Wilson "hd" 46 Dock Laborer b. Hull.
Mary A. Wilson wife 37 b. Hull.
Daniel Wilson son 17 Stone mason App. b. Hull.
Elizabeth Wilson dau. 6.. Scholar. b. Hull.
Jane Wilson dau 7mnths. b. Hull.
And yes your right, it doesn't mention Ellen, I wonder why. Ellen is mentioned on the 1861 Census for the same address. RG9/3590/08/118v, 5, Primrose Place, South St.
Her age on this census is given as 13. b. Hull.
So where she was in 1851 I don't know.
Perhaps she was in hospital at the time, or visiting relatives. I will have to look that up.
By 1861, Daniel was already married, and working at Ampleforth Collage, North Yorkshire as a Stonemason. He called his first daughter Harriet by the way, after his mother. His second daughter Jane Ellen was born at Ampleforth nr Helmsley in 1861.
Ol
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Hi Yorklass, thanks for the info on Little Queen St, so thats why I could find it. It was interesting to find out about the street though, what is the book you refer to?, I would love to have one. Do you know if this Portass Gardens is on the 1841 Census.
Thank you so much for your help, but you can see why I am nearly tearing my hair out over this. Daniel is my grt.grt.Grandfather bye the way, he married Charlotte Wilkinson in 1857 St. Mary's.
Ol
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Ol,
How local are you to Hull?
Sculcoates and Drypool are both now part of Hull and, to my mind, are more or less the same area, so I still don't think you should discount the Daniel Wilson baptised in Drypool.
Have you ever had the chance to look at the parish records? I remember you said you have a copy of Thomas & Harriet's marriage cert but it didn't give any info about her father.
If you can give me a summary of which children you know are theirs, and, if you know, where and when they were born/baptised, I'll pop into the Beverley Record Office sometime soon and look them up to see if, by any chance, it gives any further info. Even father's occupation as a dock labourer might be better than nothing! There's only one Drypool parish at that time (St Andrew) and 2/3 parishes in Sculcoates. It's probably going to be a bit like looking for the proverbial needle in a haystack, looking for Harriet's baptism - as we don't even know she was born/baptised in Hull - but I'll give it a whirl.
I still haven't been able to find that Beverley baptism you thought you had for Harriet - can you point me at it, and then I might be able to look for her baptism as well (I still think she may be the one!).
Got to do something - this is driving me mad! ::)
Just looking again at your post re 1851 census, Elizabeth must have been born after the introduction of civil reg. Have you sent for her birth cert?
Jill
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Hi Jill, I live in East Hull, and thanks for your kind offer. I don't get chance to get to Beverley very often, although I have been to the archives in the past.
I don't have a copy of Thomas & Harriet's marriage, it is the marriage certificate for his marriage to Mary Banks that I have. On it he gives his address as Simminson Gallery, Little queen St. And that he is a "widower", occupation as "labourer". Mary gave her address as Holderness Road, and she was a "spinster". As I say, my Harriet died 27th Oct 1848, at the same address Thomas gave on his marriage to Mary.
Harriet & Thomas married 28th Oct 1833 St. Mary's, and Thomas married Mary Banks the same date 28th Oct 1849. Salthouse Lane Baptists Chapel.
I know Thomas & Harriet had three Children, Daniel chr. 29-9-1833. Elizabeth chr. 18-3-1843. Ellen, I believe she was born 1845-6.
Thinking about the 1851 Census, and not finding Ellen there, it is possible that Mary Banks had had a bad time of it when her daughter Jane was born. [she had no more children]. So possibly she was unable to cope with Ellen, who would have been two or three at the time. Elizabeth was different, as she was of school age.
What do you think.
I also have the certificate of marriage for Harriet Wilson & Joseph Dales by the way. I sent for it hoping it may give some insight on who she was, or her fathers name, but sadly it doesn't.
This may be irrelevant, but I have found a marriage for a Thomas Wilson & Harriet Bennell 1838 St. James. Sutton, on it, she states, she is a "widow". And also a death for Thomas Wilson 1840 Sutton aged 39. The plot thickens.
The only bapt that I have for a Harriet Ellington is chr. 28-9-1802 Preston nr Hull. parents John Ellington & Mary.
Ol
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I was going to say that you could access these records at the Hull Archives but I believe they're closed to the public at the moment whilst they prepare to move into their new building - the History Centre! Should be quite something as I understand it's combining Hull City Archives with those of Hull University. I think it's due to open later this year, so I shall look forward to visiting!
I think a good start would be to look for the 1833 marriage record and hope that it gives some extra info. Just one thing though - you said it took place at St Mary's (Lowgate?) but the IGI has it at All Saints, Sculcoates. Then at the Preston baptism for a Harriet Ellington in 1802, which seems a bit early. Perhaps I'll also take a quick look in the Beverley PRs for Harriet's baptism - I see William Ellington was baptised at St Mary & St Nicholas.
I'm also going to have a look at the PR entry in Drypool for the Daniel Wilson baptised 1833 because I still think he's yours.
You know, this is all a bit like wading through treacle! I've just looked on the IGI for Elizabeth Wilson's baptism in c.1843 and can only find one baptised at Holy Trinity, Hull in 1842 but she is d/o Thomas & Ann.!! ::) I'm wondering if they even bothered to have their children baptised.
Anyway, if none of the above records reveal any extra info, I shall admit defeat and fall on my sword! ;) I hate admitting defeat!! ;D
Jill
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Jill...you are doing a marvelous job with this thread and im fascinated with it..so dont you go giving up just yet as them swords are mighty sharp you fall on them !! :o :o
For what its worth I agree with you regarding Daniel/Drypool connection and looking at all the other cencus there is no Daniel Wilson b 1833/4 b Drypool or anywhere else that fits apart from the one in 1851 living with Thomas and Mary
Jane
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Hi Jill, you are not going to believe this, but I have been searching for Ellen on the 1851 Census, and I have come across something really strange. You know I have Thomas & Mary Banks at 3, Simpson's Gallery, Little Queen St. [I have the print out for this]. But I have just come across at the same address a William Wilson.
Thomas's 107/2363/Myton 3/104v 3, Simpson Gallery, Little Queen St.
William's 107/2363/Myton3/pg 19 3, Simmonson's Building, Little Queen St.
I will give you what it say's on William.
William Wilson "hd" 42. Boilermaker. b. Hull
Jane Wilson wife 29. Bookbinder b. Hull
Edwin Wilson son 20 Boilermaker b. Hull
John Wilson son 10 Scholar b. Hull
Ellen Wilson dau 8 Scholar b. Hull
John Beadle Stepson 7 Scholar b. Hull
Ann E Wilson dau 2mnths b. Hull.
So what do you make of this.
I have looked on the B.D.M. for Hull, and found a marriage for William Wilson & Jane Beadle. H.T.C. 1849.
The plot thickens. William and Thomas are related in some way, either brothers or cousins, I have yet to find out.
I suppose Thomas could have been in the process of moving out of there and into Primrose Place, as the building itself would have only been rooms to let.
I am really finding things out since I made contact with you girls, but my head is spinning. Your dealing with an O.A.P. here you know.
You mention Elizabeth and say, you can only find a Thomas & Ann, I suppose it's possible that Harriet went by the name Ann, or is this just a fancy of mine.
I am still reeling over the census.
Ol
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Hello Ol, Jill and Jane,
I know what you mean about your head spinning Ol - so is mine. I keep having to re-read all these posts to get my head round it.
There seem to be Wilsons everywhere (but not many Ellingtons).
Anyway, Jill, if you do make it to the Beverley Records office, there is a Removal Order of Thomas Wilson, Harriet, his wife, from St. Martin Parish to St. Mary Parish, Beverley. It's dated 30 January 1834, and the reference is QSU/4/137/7. (I tried to post a link, but it wouldn't let me!) If you go onto the East Riding Archives, and the "Virtual Heritage Library", then search for Wilson, it's number 43 on the list.
I know we're going back to Beverley, but the names and dates fit!!
Ol, the book I was talking about is called "Aspects of Hull" by David Goodman. My mum (who still lives in Hull) bought me it a few years ago, at Browns, I believe, and is still available to buy. There is an interesting chapter about "Hull Prison and its inmates".....but no names, unfortunately.
I'll keep looking too
Yorkslass
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Hi Jill & Yorklass, just to let you know I have found William Wilson on the 1861 census for Marlborough Terrace, and Ellen is with them.
What is this Removal Order that you refer to Yorklass, I haven't heard of this before.
Ol
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Thanks Yorklass by the way, for the info on Hull, I will try and get a copy.
Ol
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Ol,
Removal Orders are all to do with “Poor Relief” – these orders were used to send poor people back to their parish of settlement. The Justices of the Peace for an area would issue an order if they thought a person or family needed parish relief, but had no right to settlement in their area. So these poor people would be sent back to their place of “legal settlement”.
They vary, I think, in the information they contain, but can be quite useful in confirming where people lived, especially if children are involved.
If Jill is able to look at the Order for Thomas and Harriet Wilson if she goes to Beverley, and they are the right couple, it could show whether they had a son called Daniel.
Yorkslass
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Good find, Yorkslass. I'll make a note of the ref and take a look when I go to the RO.
You never know, between us all, we might actually solve this one.
P.S. I still think Harriet is connected to Beverley.
Jill
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Well, I've been looking at these Ellingtons/Wilsons most of the morning at the Record Office, and I can truly say that I'm now even more confused than ever!! I know - not what you wanted to hear! ::)
Perhaps if I just list what I've found, someone with a clearer mind than mine is at the moment, might be able to decipher what's going on!!
1. The 28 Oct 1833 marriage at All Saints, Sculcoates of Thomas Wilson & Harriet Ellington has them both 'of this parish', he signed, she made her mark. Witnesses were William X Burton & John Bradbury.
2. Forget about the Harriet Ellington supposedly baptised in Preston 28 Oct 1802 (IGI). There is a Harriet baptised 26 Oct 1802 but she's the daughter of John & Mary ? (couldn't make out the surname but it definetly wasn't Ellington) and the entry above is for an Elizabeth d/o Davy Elletson. So, I think that's a transcription error on behalf of the IGI.
3. The Drypool baptism 29 Sep 1833 of Daniel Wilson has him s/o Thomas, a shoemaker & Harriet of this parish.
4. I couldn't find baptisms for either Elizabeth (c.1843) or Ellen (c.1844/5) in either Drypool or Sculcoates, but there is still that IGI for Elizabeth in Holy Trinity, Hull in 1842 d/o Thomas & Ann.
5. I also found the following baptisms which might fit in somewhere:-
May 2 1830 Drypool Elizabeth Wilson d/o Thomas, shoemaker & Harriet of parish of Sutton.
Dec 13 1835 Drypool Sarah Elizabeth Wilson d/o Thomas & Harriet, cordwainer of Sutton.
Oct 11 1840 Sculcoates All Saints Harriot Wilson d/o Thomas & Harriot, mariner. Abode: Charles Sq.
6. I'm afraid I couldn't find a baptism for Harriet Ellington in either Beverley, Drypool or Sculcoates.
7. In Beverley St Mary's, there are the following baptisms for the 2 boys that Yorkslass found on the 1841 census living with a Harriett Wilson in Beverley:-
Jan 21 1831 Richard s/o John, a groom & Harriet Foreman of Wood Lane, Beverley.
Nov 13 1832 William bastard s/o Harriet Ellington, spinster, workhouse.
8. The Removal Order dated 30 Jan 1834 is to remove Thomas Wilson, cordwainer of Beverley and Harriet his wife from Beverley St Martin parish to Beverley St Mary parish. No children or other family are mentioned. It also states that, on 30 Jan, thay accept that the order cannot be carried out as Thomas Wilson, one of the paupers to be removed is unable to travel by reason of a serious illness. This obviously didn't last long, as the Order was carried out on Feb 3.
Because I was looking out for Harriets, one baptism that caught my attention was in Beverley St Mary Mar 21 1808 Harriet illegitimate d/o Ellen Norris. I made a note of it because Ellen was a name she (or at least who we think is her!) used to name one of her own children. What's more. I've looked on the IGI and this Ellen Mary Norris is the daughter of a Richard ( name of Harriet's son).
I'm probably jumping at straws here - and, anyway, I'm thwarted because I can't find a marriage on the IGI for this Ellen Norris. I was sort of hoping she might have married a Mr Ellington whose name Harriet then adopted!! I should know by now - it's never that easy!!
Please, someone see if they can make any sense of all of the above!!
Jill
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Hi Jill, my word you've been busy. It is so good of you to try to help me like this. You can begin to see why I have been tearing my hair out over.
To begin with, the John Bradbury you saw as witness on the marriage of Thomas & Harriet, was actually what they refer to as a professional witness at weddings. You will come across him quite alot at marriages.
I don't suppose it gave their ages on there did it.
About the Harriet at Preston, I was given this by someone from the Yorkshire family History society, I haven't seen it for myself. But I will take your word for it that it is not her.
As I told you before, my Thomas was a "Dock Laborer", so he could not be the Shoemaker "Cordwainer" in Beverley. So this wipes him off the map as well.
As I said before, I had come across at least 4 other Thomas's & Harriet's around this time.
I will keep it in mind with the Harriot Norris you mentioned as it is a coincidence that her mothers name was Ellen.
Another coincidence. My grt Grandfather Daniel married Charlotte Wilkinson 13-9-1857. St. Mary's. Their first daughter Harriet Wilson b. 5-5-1858. Hull. Married a Samuel Norrie 29-6-1880. St. Barnabus.
Strange how the two names are so alike. I know that the spelling of names was a bit hit and miss, as most people were illiterate, so possibly didn't even know how to spell there own names. And most probably, strong accents, so that who ever was writing there names down, could have mispelt them.
What do you think.
Any way, as I say Jill, your a star for helping me.
Thanks alot
Ol
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You're welcome, Ol.
No ages on the marriage entry, unfortunately.
You may well be correct about the cordwainer/shoemaker Thomas Wilson not being yours, but I wouldn't dismiss him out of hand, as he'd obviously fallen on hard times and may well have had to become a labourer. But, yes, it's beginning to look as if they are 2 separate couples and that, for some reason, your couple didn't go in for baptising their children. I don't suppose there's any history of nonconformism in this part of your tree?
I'm hoping that Yorkslass, Jane and LKL will make something of what I've found, but - as you say - it's all very confusing!!
By the way, I've just double checked on the IGI and that Harriet baptism in Preston was for a Harriet Nettleton - I made a note that I thought it began with a 'N'!
Jill
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Hi Jill, Thanks for that. I have just looked at the marriage certificate for Thomas & Mary Banks again, and just realised, they were married 28-10-1849 at Salthouse Lane, Baptist Chapel. I was under the impression that it was Mary Banks who was the Baptist.
But not being able to find any baptism for the children of Thomas & Harriet, I am begining to believe that maybe Thomas & Harriet were baptist too.
As for Ellen, I have searched the 1851 Census for her with no luck, I wonder if she was adopted into the family, what do you think.
You won't believe this, but on another side of my family tree, I have a Maria Nettleton b 1795 kirkella. m. Robert Barker 2-3-1816 Kirkella.
Ol
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Hello all,
Well, Jill, you must have worked so hard at Beverley yesterday - and you have found all sorts of tantalising information - but nothing to pin these Wilsons and Ellingtons down, unfortunately.
I agree with you, there must have been two Thomas and Harriet Wilsons.
What is confusing me (apart from most of this!) is that Daniel Wilson was baptised before Ol's Thomas and Harriet married. Wouldn't the child have been baptised under his single mother's name in that case?
I was convinced that Thomas and Harriet were living in Beverley, but now I'm not so sure. I've been right through the 1841 Beverley census, page by page (and some of the writing is not easy to read) - St. Mary and St. Martin. Harriet Wilson is there of course with the two children, Richard and William, and there are a lot of Thomas Wilsons of the right age, especially in the Newbegin area, but just nothing to link any of the Thomas's with Harriet.
I've also searched for ages for Elizabeth and Sarah Elizabeth, children of the Sutton Thomas and Harriet Wilson, and come up with nothing.
So we come back to the Hull census. Again, I've been through the Little Queen Street/Paragon Street/Chariot Street area of Myton, page by page, but nothing. I really think some of those little streets and alleys must have been missed off by the enumerators.
I've been looking too, at the Family Trees on Ancestry. I've seen Ol's Wilson/Ellington tree, but there is another one with exactly the same information, except the Harriet Ellington on this tree, is the one born in St. Mary's Lambeth, Surrey!! She even has the same date of death as our Harriet!
I think we've just about exhausted all the possibilities. Perhaps this is one of those brick walls that will have to go on the back burner for a while.....
Maybe when this new History Centre opens in Hull, some more records will come to light (we hope!)
best wishes, and well done for all your work, Jill,
Yorkslass
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Thanks, Yorkslass. If truth be told, I quite enjoyed myself!
I still think Ol should try to follow up the Harriet in Hull Prison in 1841 - as you say, when the new History Centre opens. I think it might also be worth looking into the baptism in Lambeth for Harriet Ellington - there certainly don't seem to be any likely candidates up here in Yorkshire (unless, of course, Ellington wasn't her maiden name.)
Jill
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Hi Jill & Yorkslass, I have discounted the Harriet in the Goal, as I have found her and William [her husband] still at the prison on the 1861 Census, William being a prison Warder. So they are out of the frame.I feel sure that the whole family must have been Baptists. And it may also account for not been able to find Harriets birth in Hull.
I think the Beverley connection can be discounted as well, as there are is no evidence for that, and I have the proof that this Harriet did indeed marry Joseph Dale. The family appear on the 1851 Census together.
So I am left with the Salthouse Lane Baptist Chapel as the only connection I have with the family.
Do you know if there is any information to be had on the Baptist Chapel's of Hull ?.
And where I should look for them.
The other family tree you found on Ancestry, is a cousin of mine, and she is in the dark about Harriet, as much as I am.
But strange as it may sound, I finally feel that I am getting somewhere with this family, thanks to you both.
Ol