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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Australia Lookups completed => Topic started by: Tom Piper on Monday 30 March 09 09:25 BST (UK)
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Hi all,
The Digger Index has the following family:
John Stone married to Margaret Moran 1860
children all bn Melbourne
Ellen Maria bn. 1861
Margaret Frances bn 1863
Ann Teresa bn, 1865
Thomas Daniel bn. 1867
Ann Teresa bn. 1869
Caroline Eugenia bn. 1872
Eveline bn. 1875
They all lived South Yarra, Melbourne at one time
Ellen Maria later became Sister Clavier at Star of Sea Convent, Melbourne.
Caroline Eugenia became a newspaper writer & married Sir George Doughty in England.
Thomas Stone became Mayor of Grimsby, England.
Margaret Frances married a Francis Whitehead in England.
I know there was an 1881 Census for Australia, are they on it.
Anyone else interested in this family?
Tom
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There was a census in 1881 but my understanding is that all the census with the exception of a couple of very early ones, have been destroyed.
Prior to Federation in 1900 census would have been conducted by the individual states.
Perhaps trying google for some information.
Cando
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Thank ypu very much, I didn't know that.
Tom
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Eugenia Stone was a journalist, more than likely in Melbourne, where she wrote for a magazine called "Table Talk" where she worked for 8 years, she is certainly mentioned in an article in the magazine on 18th July 1907. Where could I find more information on this magazine? I am in the Uk by the way.
Tom
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Not much help to you in the UK but available at State Library of Victoria on microfilm.
http://catalogue.slv.vic.gov.au/vwebv/holdingsInfo?bibId=979071
Perhaps ask for the article to be emailed to you.
http://calisto.slv.vic.gov.au/services/information/ask.html
They can only say no ;D
Cheers
Cando
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Okay Cando,
I have sent off an enquiry and we will see what happens. I attach a photograph of Eugenia Stone on her wedding day in London.
Thanks
Tom
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Thank you Tom. It certainly adds to the story to see photographs of the subject.
Good luck with your enquiry.
Cheers
Cando
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All addresses are suburbs of Melbourne - If you look at Googlemap you can see a street view of the houses.
1903 Electoral roll has the following - all at 16 Maribyrnong Rd, Moonee Ponds
Eugenie STONE writer
Eveline STONE, home duties
John STONE, independent means
Margaret STONE, clerk
Thomas STONE, clerk
1909 - possibles - same occupations but names slightly different
At 163 Dandenong Rd Prahran (Melbourne suburb)
Evelyn Geraldine STONE home duties
John STONE, independent means
Margaret Frances STONE clerk
1914 at Holstein House, 80 Murphy St, South Yarra (Melbourne suburb)
Evelyn STONE home duties
John STONE, independent means
Margaret Frances STONE clerk
1919 and 1924 at 652 High St Armadale (Melbourne suburb)
Evelyn Geraldine STONE home duties
Cheers, Judith
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Judith,
That's very interesting, because their names do change, or else the names on the Digger index are not their full names. For example, Caroline Eugenie at birth is Eugenia Bertuance at marriage, Thomas Daniel at birth is Thomas Sylvester at marriage, and later on as well.
Thomas Sylvester was a solicitor, company secretary, he looked after his brother-in-laws (George Doughty), fishing interests in British Columbia, Canada.
Certainly Hostein House rings a bell, it could have been the address that appeared on a newspaper report of the funeral of George Doughty in 1914. That report stated that Mrs. Stone nee Margaret Moran, wife of John had died before that date.
Thomas Sylvester Stone married Ennis Guendolyn Reed of Hawthorn, who was the daughter of Annie Walker and John Henry Reed in 1908, somewhere in Melbourne, I have a photo of both of them, both photocopied newspaper articles, which I will post.
Margaret Frances Stone married Ernest William Whitehead in 1914 in Grimsby, Lincs, Uk
I have posted the happy couple, George Doughty and Eugenia.
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They certainly got about and altered their names a few times! So where did they all finish up? John Stone's wife does not appear in any of the electoral roll entries so it looks as though she may have died before 1903.
Lovely to see the photos.
Cheers, Judith
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Eugenia Bertuance sailed to England on the "Macedonia" in April 1907. She was wrote for "Table Talk", and I think was coming to England to join a newspaper, but that information is inside "Table Talk" which is at Victoria Archives.
By chance, Sir George, MP knighted 1904, widower, millionaire type, newspaper owner etc, was in India on holiday, and on the way home joined the same ship as Eugenia at Calcutta. She was pretty, vivacious, intelligent and single.....
He died in 1914, at Waltham Hall, Grimsby, leaving £50,000 she died at River House Esher, London, in 1934, leaving £35,000.
Thomas Sylvester Stone, became Mayor of Grimsby, Lincolnshire, he died 1940, in Grimsby, his wife Ennis died in Grimsby in 1936. They had 3 children, Mevis, Sylvester and Thomas John, not sure what happened to them.
Margaret Frances Stone married Ernest Whitehead from London. he died on a liner called "Megantic", sister to "Titanic", - he was purser, she died in Grimsby in 1942. Ellen Maria Stone went to the Star of the Sea Convent in Melbourne, not sure what happened to her, though she benefited from Eugenia's will.
Tom
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Judith,
I have just looked at 16 Maribyrnong Rd, Moonee Ponds on Google Street View, and it shows a typical Aussie bungalow, what we in England would say semi-detached, and I just wondered if you or anyone else would know if that was the house there in 1903 when John Stone and family lived in that road according to the Electoral roll.
Secondly, is there anyway I can find out how old John Stone was at that time and when he was born etc.
Tom
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Tom
Do you have any further information about John Stone such as his parents' names? You can download any of the children's birth certificates or the marriage certificate for $17.50. You will need to know the reference number but I think you should be able to get that from Digger. Otherwise ask again and some kind R'chatter may give it to you or you can get it from the Victorian index fo 99c. Victorian certificates give a lot of information about family and origins etc. I would think the marriage certificate might be a good place to start. Look up the Victoria Reseorurces in the Australia resources at the top of the page which will give you the links.
There are 9 possible Unassisted immigrants who could be your John (assuming he immigrated) which makes it too difficult to work out which one is yours. I haven't even looked at the Assisted immigration list.
I googled Moonee Ponds history and it seems to have been settled as a suburb from the 1880s so I would think the little semi-detached would be the same one as the Stone family lived in. The other addresses seem to be changed - one of them seems to be a used car lot now!
Seems like the Stones did the opposite to many others emigrating TO the UK!
Let us know if you find out anything else!
Cheers, Judith
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Judith,
Yes I have the index number 3777, and will try for the certificate. I also had a look at the unassisted passages for Tom Stone's wife, Margaret Moran and saw that there would possibly be just the one, a young Margaret Moran coming in on the Africa as an 18 year old in 1858. However I searched for her there without success so far.
I have used the excellent British 19th century newspapers index to look for her as well, there are a few references to several persons by the name of Margaret Moran, mainly Irish, but nothing concrete so far.
If anyone wants that reference then go to http://www.lancashire.gov.uk/onrl/ and join online and start searching-very addictive. They also have the Times online archive there as well. Maybe you can do the same from Australian libraries as well.
Tom
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Hi Tom
Yes, one can waste a lot of time on those interesting papers which I can access through the national library here.
Now here are a few more bits which you may already have - or not!
John Stone's death:
Accordng to the electoral rolls he was still registered in 1914 but not in 1919. There are two possible deaths on the Digger Great War index:
1914 Jno STONE parents unkown age 84 MELB E reg 6354
1918 Jno STONE parents unkown age 92 Am reg 7161
It would seem to me that ii's more logical that the first of these could be him as I'm fairly sure South Yarra would be in the Melbourne East registration district. Look in the 'Australia Resources' to see what information you will get from a death cert - unfortunately not parents in this case. There were some others listed as well but not such good matches, in my opinion.
DEATHS:
Margaret STONE, 1884, age 48, parents John Moran, Ellen Doyle, MELB W reg 2172
Evelyn Geraldino (sic) STONE, 1929, aged 49, MELB E, Reg 15268, parents Jno Stone, Margaret Moran
Anne Theresa STONE 1867 age 2, parents John Stone, Margaret Moran, MELB Reg 8696 (Born 1865)
Marriage perhaps;
1902 Annie Teresa STONE born MELB E to Jno Hy REED born BALLT (Ballarat) reg 5334
Can't find a death for Ellen but perhaps it's registered under her religious name.
Now the immigration information is interesting.
A Margaret Moran aged 18 is listed as an Unassisted immigrant on the Afirca arriving August 1858. There is an Assisted Immigrant of the same name aged 20 on the same ship! The age 20 fits better with the death above as that would give a birthdate of around 1836.
The Africa left from Liverpool with 400 souls and provisioned for 140 days 16 April, 1858; arrived Melbourne 14 August, 1858 There were 15 deaths on board - 5 from measles.
The Margaret Moran age 19 is listed as a servant, nationality Irish.
The Margaret Moran, aged 20 assisted immigrant is listed as a dairymaid, native country Ireland, Tipperary, ; on the 'Disposal List' it says she has "gone with Mrs Marshall, Dryburgh St."
Dryburgh St is still there in North Melbourne, and reasonably close to the later residences.
Hope that gives you a bit more to go on!
Cheers, Judith
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Well, Tom, my intuition has failed!!
I have found the will of John Stone leaving 150 pounds to his daughter Sister Mary Clar??? and the rest to his daughter Evelyn Stone. It gives his address in 1914 as 14 King William St Fitzroy. Death date 27 Jul 1918. His residence at time of death is given as Malvern - in the same area as South Yarra. So it seems he is the John Stone died aged 92 in 1918. Down load for free.
http://www.prov.vic.gov.au/access/probate.asp
Cheers, Judith
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Judith,
That's amazing, thanks very much, how sensible the sate of Victoria is to have wills available like that on line, when you think how difficult and expensive it is to obtain wills in this country UK
First you have to go the Probate index, which is not on line, then send a letter to York and pay £5 and then after a month get a will sent to you.
Now we know when John died and where, who is family were, his occupation, and can work out now where he was born etc. It proves relationships.
Tell me how have you found out all these deaths in Melbourne, do you have the info anyway or has it meant looking for it?
Tom
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Judith,
Another strange thing about that will is that when Tom dictated it to his executor, he was living at 14, King William Street, Fitzroy, Victoria. Well my wife and I have walked past that address on the way to Melbourne park at the MCG to watch cricket between England and Australia and also the Aussie Open tennis.
Tom
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Judith,
Now 3 replies to same message: His sister is Mary Clavier, of Star of the Sea Convent. who was left £1000 in the will of sister Lady Eugenie Doughty of River House, Esher England in 1934. The other sister Evelyn must have remained unmarried if you found her death in 1929. There maybe something in an English paper about his death too, will have a look.
John did not leave any money to anyone else of the family no doubt because they were either married already or deceased.
Maybe he wasn't in touch with anyone else in the Stone family.
I have e-mailed the library in Malvern to see if there is a newspaper report of his death at 92, must have been remarked somehow.
Tom
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Judith,
Marriage certificate confirms the parents of Margaret Moran as John Moran & Ellen Doyle. They were married on 1st December, 1860 in St Francis R.C. church, Melbourne, John was 33 and Margaret was 25. Margaret was from County Wicklow, Ireland and John was also from Ireland, county difficult to read, but looks like West Meath.
John's parents were Thomas & Hannah Stone, farmer, Margaret's father also was a farmer.
The forename of Ellen Doyle fits with child's name of Ellen Stone as does Thomas Stone. The age of Margaret Moran may cast doubt on that previous unassisted immigrant in 1858., but it could be Margaret Moran on the Merlin in October 1860, fiche ref: 13A 100 or 13 748 on British Immigration
http://proarchives.imagineering.com.au/index_search_results.asp
Tom
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Tom
I had a lovely afternoon at the Australian National Library yesterday chasing up your family! I found it a real challenge and enjoyed the hunt. The ANL has excellent genealogical resources eg the Digger BDM indexes, and also the immigration fiche - next time I go I'll have a look at the passenger info for the Margaret Moran on the Merlin. Qucik marriage though if she only arrived in October and married in December. Perhaps they already knew each other. I'll also have a look at old copies of the Melbourne papers now that I have an actual death date for John.
Yes, coincidences are amazing. We have relatives who live near Petersfield and I have one family of ancestors from Bedhampton/Emsworth area but I didn't know that last time we were in UK and we actually went to Emsworth. I have another family with burials at Mere, Chicklade and West Camel, all of which we went through on our way to stay with another relative near Montacute. Next time, next time!
I agree about the wills although at least the pre1855 PCC wills are downloadable from the (UK) National Archives. The ANL has a full set of the UK probate index - I know of a couple of people who send to friends here to look up the UK wills index as it is easier to find here in Canberra. The Victorian wills have only just come online.
Cheers, Judith
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Okay another puzzle for you.
Thomas Sylvester Stone, son of John and Margaret, married Ennis Gwendolyn Reed in 1908 (Digger Index 3410 ) Her parents were John Henry Reed and Anne Walker Marriage Year: 1884 Reg Number: 1114.
John Henry Reed and Anne Walker had 3 children, that I know of namely, Ennis Gwendolyn, 1885 (Year: 1885:Reg Number: 10546), Oswald St. John(Birth Place: HAWThorn Death Place: Year: 1886 Reg Number: 10879), Pearl Hawthorn (Year: 1888 Reg Number: 3629 )
Now as you found in 1902 an Annie Teresa STONE born MELB E married Jno Hy REED born BALLT (Ballarat) reg 5334) Anne Teresa was born in 1869, daughter of John Stone and Margaret Moran, the one to replace the one who died aged 2.
I have downloaded a will of a John Henry Reed, chemist formerly of Bridge Street, Ballarat and lately of Lech Street,Camberwell, who died in 1903, leaving money to his wife Ann Teresa Fabiola Reed. He left around £7,500, but was this John Henry Reed father of Ennis Gwendolyn or son of John Henry Reed and Annie Walker? The will does not mention the age of the dead Reed in 1903.
Ennis Gwendolyn Reed died Christmas Day 1936 in Grimsby, Lincolnshire, lady Mayoress of Grimsby.
Tom
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Judith,
Holstein House Connection from above! This is the report of Margaret Frances Stone's marriage to Ernest Whitehead.
Grimsby Telegraph: 23:02:1914
Marriage of Miss Margaret Stone: Quiet ceremony at St. Mary's Church this morning.:
The marriage of Miss Margaret Frances Stone, daughter of Mr. John Stone of Holstein House, South Yarra, Melbourne, Australia, and Mr. Ernest William Whitehead, second son of Mr. E. Whitehead, Whitehall, London was celebrated very quietly at St. Mary's Roman Catholic Church, Grimsby this Monday morning at 1030. The Very Revd. Cantab O'Donoghue afficiated.
The bride was given away by the Borough Member (Sir George Doughty) and was attended by one bridesmaid Miss Mildred Ward -Gillespie. Mr. Wilfred Vere Doughty acted as best man. After the ceremony Miss Teague, the organist at St. Mary's played Mendelssohn's "Wedding March".
Also present were Lady Doughty, (sister Eugenia Stone) Mrs. Petter (mother of the bridegroom), Mrs. Rowland Charlton, Misses Ethel and Gladys Moss. After the ceremony all returned to Waltham Hall where dejeuner was served. At 1230, Mr. and Mrs. E. Whitehead left for London where they will take up residence at King's Gardens, Hampstead, London. A great number of presents were received from relatives and friends in Australia, India, Africa and Canada as well as several gifts from Grimsby friends.
A quiet wedding my foot! More of a Grimsby society wedding not lunch but "dejeuner" not your normal Aussie barbie, but it was an English February!
Tom
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Thanks Tom - I'll have a hunt for some of this but won't be at the ANL till Wednesday at least.
Hmmm - a quiet wedding??????? Oh well, how the other half live!
And all through this poor Evelyn played Cinderella - without a prince (apparently).
Thanks for the extra info - this family has me intrigued.
Cheers, Judith
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I have a uploaded photos of both T. Sylvester Stone and his wife Ennis, taken from newpapers of 1920 and 1936 respectively hence poor clarity.
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This is a description of Thomas Stone from a newspaper in 1920
Grimsby Telegraph 20 02 1920
Nominated today for the South Ward vacancy Mr. T. S. Stone is in the happy position of being supported by both Liberals and Unionists. Known to business associates as "T. Sylvester Stone" he is "Tom" Stone to his friends. He is a real hustler, and the man who thinks there are flies on Tom Stone is out to be disillusioned. Mr. Stone might be mistaken for a Yankee, and in this connection he had an amusing experience when he went into the Passport office at New York and applied for a passport to enable him to travel. The official just gave one glance at him then said "With a face like that you want no passport in America-git!!" and T.S. gat!
Blunt but Tactful
During the war Mr. Stone did valuable work as hon.secretary of the Belgian Refugees fund. He is the secretary of the newly formed Literary and Debating Society, which had its inaugural meeting last Saturday. By profession an accountant, he has a wonderful head for figures and it will be a good man who gets around him in a matter of finance. One of the best type of men to come forward in connection with municipal work for a very long time, Mr. Stone should assuredly be the choice of the ward. He is kindly and genial, but very direct and blunt in speech. Like most men who say what they mean but do it tactfully, he is very popular.
Tom
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Death notice in The Argus (Melbourne) Monday 29 July 1918
STONE - On the 27 July, John Stone, aged 94, of "Airedale" Armadale, relict of the late Margaret Stone, and much loved father of S M Claver (sic) (Presentation Convent Elsternwick), Mrs E Whitehead (England), T Sylvester (England), Mrs Stuart, Lady Doughty (England) , Miss Eva Stone. RIP (Interred privately)
SO - had Annie Theresa re-married to a Mr Stuart?
Had a look at the fiche for Margaret Moran on the Merlin - appalling handwriting of the clerk!
This Margaret's 'calling' listed as General Servant, she is Irish from what looks like Kings Co??, Roman Catholic, cannot read or write, age 25. Disposal list - employer Mrs Russell or Bussell, address Belfast, Belfash?. I don't reconginse any area of Melbourne ever having this name but it is listed a number of times in this Disposal list so perhaps there was an area that was renamed at another time.
Cheers, Judith
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Hi Judith ;D
Belfast was the former name of Port Fairy, Vic.
Cheers
Cando
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Hi Cando :) and Tom
Cando, you are a real treasure! Many thanks for that.
Possible death for husband of Annie STONE
Jno Hy REED D 1903, age 49, death place Balwyn, reg 12195; father Jno Henry Reed, mother Martha unknown
I think this is the husband of Annie and the person whose will you have - Camberwell and Balwyn are very close.
HOWEVER here is the death notice from The Argus 28 October 1903
REED - on the 27th October, at his residence "Allanvale", loch St Camberwell, John Henry Reed, late of Ballarat, beloved husband of Jessie F Reed, son of the late Captain Reed. Aged 49.
Cannot see a marriage for Annie/Ann REED up to 1920.
I think my brain is addled for now! Will have another go at these Reeds soon.
Cheers, Judith
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Judith & Cando
I think that there is too much guesswork here-I only downloaded this will of John Henry Reed died 1903 formerly of Ballarat because it seemed to fit, but with a wife called Jessie it doesn't. However it did mention a Annie Theresa Fabiloa Reed but that is guesswork again.
So a mystery still.the death notice in the Argus is him okay, and n the 1918 directory 652 High Street Armadale was occupied by Miss Rachel Kittson from library at Stonnington History centre.
Tom
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Now, Tom, it is no good fobbing me off with 'too much guesswork' - I am very determined ;D
The problem is that on the one hand there are too many Jno Hy REEDs and on the other hand not enough!
The Digger Pioneer index (1836-1888) has no match for a birth for a John Reed until 1862 - another John Henry REED b Sand 1862 with a marriage 1884 and birth of a child to that marriage (also Jno Hy REED) 1885 in Shurst (Sandhurst is an old name for Bendigo) so this is not our J Reed.
The will lists his children as Oswald John, Ennis and Pearl so he is the father, I assume Annie nee WALKER is their mother and Annie Teresa is a later marriage.
There are still a couple of very odd pieces of the puzzle - the will definitely states that Annie Theresa Fabiola (and, of course, the first two of those forenames are those of Annie Teresa STONE who married a Jno Hy REED born Ballarat in 1902) is his widow but the death notice cites Jessie F, and the death notice has no mention of his children. Curiouser and curiouser! I'm pleased he had livestock - fowls worth 1pound!
1903 census has John Henry REED chemist and Annie Teresa REED home duties at Pleasant St Ballarat.
1909 census Annie Teresa Tobolia (!) REED home duties Loch St Camberwell.
Can't see any other electoral roll entries that fit.
On a quick look I couldn't see a remarriage for Annie REED, so the question remains - is she 'Mrs Stuart' daughter of John STONE? This lot seem to have played fast and loose with forenames also!
They look like one of my families who married other family connections, making the search for them quite complicated.
Hmm - and what about Tom Sylvester being seen as a 'Yankee' and trying to get a US passport. This family sure is fascinating!
Cheers, Judith who will be back at ANL on the track of the Stones soon!
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Hey what fun they are!! I am off to the library in Grimsby today, about 80 miles to the east, where I am assured they have a photograph of T. Sylvester Stone. On 20th June, 1934, he inherited around £15,000 from the will of his sister Eugenie Bertuance Stone, widow of Sir George Doughty.
I would also like to know when the same man went to Canada and where exactly, we know his wife was in Canada in 1912.
arrival 12 Nov 1912, ship Makura, from Sydney, Australia to Vancouver Canadian Passenger Lists from Ancestry also Mavis Stone age 3 Anthony Stone age 7mths.
So any more than that would be helpful, eg when T Sylvester left the country.
It looks like you are on the right track and that will I downloaded with the name of Annie Theresa Fabiola on it is to with the same family. I am going to copy it all out then send it to you, then we can see what it actually says.
By the way that will is that from the same archive-I did see one from Bendigo there I'm sure. Which will are you talking about where have you seen it, the one with the fowls.
I have e-mailed the convent, but have done that before with no result, wonder if any other rootschatter has been in touch with the former convent now a school.
Keep searching!!
Tom
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Hi Tom (even YOU are changing names too often LOL), thanks for the PM ;D
The will is from the PROV will site
http://www.prov.vic.gov.au/access/probate.asp
When you get to John H REED (chemist) there are 3 links. The first link is not on-line info but the 2nd and 3rd links get you to the ractual documents. I didn't save it but I think link 2 gives the valuation of his assets and debts (looks like Annie got some nice clothes by the names of the shops he had accounts at!) and I think link 3 has the actual will. You just have to wait ages for each to download.
Cheers, Judith who can't get to the ANL till Tuesday probably :(
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1909 electoral roll has Thomas, accountant, and Ennis, home duties, STONE at Normanby St, Brighton, Vic
I assume you have Ennis and Thomas's arrival from New York to Port of London,arrival 16 Aug 1916,- Thomas age 50, Ennis age 35, with Anthony age 4, Mavis age 7. I know there are some Canadian censuses but my Ancestry is only for Aus and UK. Another task at the National Library.
Cheers. judith
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Judith,
No I didn't have their arrival date into the Port of London, quite a risky journey in war time in the North Atlantic during World War 1. The Canadian census nearest is 1911, were you thinking of anything else?
Yes I have downloaded all 3 documents, the list of creditors, and persons them money, the affidavit sworn by Mr. Glasson and Annie Teresa Fabiola, and the will itself, containing the names of John Henry's children, and Annie Teresa's step-children.So if it is the same Ann Teresa Stone born 1869 who marries our John Henry Reed in 1902 and he pops his clogs in 1903, then what a good deal for her! She would have been 34 in 1902 and John Henry well a lot older, I don't think we have his birth yet.
Thomas Sylvester Stone's sister did the same thing in marrying an older man and then inherited his wealth!
I now have some more information about T Stone as mayor, and a couple of pictures of him. He went into public in 1920, and in the year he was elected Mayor, (November 1936), his wife Ennis Stone nee Reed was ill and died on Christmas Day.
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Judith,
The list of liabilities, the shops, the suppliers, names of Dentists etc, this is a valuable history of life in Ballarat in the early 1900's.
I wonder if anyone else would be interested in them if I copied them out?
I see that there are some photographs of old Ballarat on
http://www.pictureaustralia.org/index.html
Tom
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Judith,,
New information for you to look at:
John Henry Reed born 1854, Ballarat, Victoria and Anne Walker born 1859, Collingwood, Victoria, Australia. She died 1898 in Ballarat, Victoria.
Pearl Hawthorn Reed, daughter of John Hry Reed and Anne Walker (Annie) died 1965 in New South Wales.
Informant a new ancestry tree finder.
Tom
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Hi Tom
Mr Thomas Stone , aged 38 (what a fib), Married, never been to Canada before, born Australia, no occupation recorded, was on the Makura arrived Vancouver 20 Aug 1912 from Sydney - source Ancestry Canadian Passenger lists. I suppose this is him - three months before Ennis and the children. You are right there is only a 1911 census listed for Canada so too early.
Annie Hawthorn REED m Harold Everard MARTIN 1914 Reg 9307 (I was actually having another look to see if I could find a remarriage for Annie Theresa without any luck.)
Cheers, Judith
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Happy Easter!
Yes that looks like our Thomas again, travelling in June or July 1912, before his wife Ennis who had given birth to their son Sylvester Anthony in April, if the incoming passenger lists for Canada are to believed when it records that Sylvester Anthony Stone was 7 months old on 12th November, 1912 when Ennis Reed and her two children arrive on the Makura's next voyage maybe from Sydney to Vancouver.
Keep up the good work. Would the electoral roll have any information as to where our Thomas and Ennis was between 1903 and 1912. He married in 1908 according to the index, and the two children were born 1909 and 1912.
It seems he is going to Vancouver to look after his brother-in-law's fishing interests in that country. Sir George owned a fleet of trawlers in England but I have no info of his fishing interests in British Columbia.
Tom
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Hi Tom
My reply #33 gave their electoral roll info for 1909. Other earlier reply (maybe #8) shows Thomas at home in 1903 with father John and siblings - he is listed as 'clerk'.
Poor Ennis left to manage two little kids on a ship.
Cheers, Judith
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Hi Tom and Judith
I am a new member of RootsChat (joined today) and am researching John Henry Reed's daughter Pearl Hawthorn Reed (1888-1965) who married Thomas Joseph Fagan (1876-1958).
I have the 'Fagan of Walbundrie' Tree on Ancestry and if you contact me directly from that site I can help as well. I am in the process of adding my latest research to my Fagan Ancestry Tree.
I have now finished the Reed and Stone connections and many thanks to you as I have been following your notes which have helped me quite a bit. Some of your queries will be answered in my Ancestry Tree when it is added to (bad ending).
I hope I can find your replies (not at all sure how this works) but would like you to contact me through Ancestry as I know that works.
Richard Howlong
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Hello Richard and Tom
Nice to have you along, Richard - hope you can find us again! Wil have a go at contacting you through Ancestry but I usually only use it for research.
Yesterday I had a hunt through The Ballarat Courier for an obit for John Henry REED and lo and behold there was. I'll PM it in full to both of you but thought there may be others following this thread who may be interested so here's the gist of it:
According to The Ballarat Courier Wed 29 Sept 1903 John Henry REED was born in 1854 on his father's ship Beaucoup lying at anchor in Port Philip. He returned to England and then back to Australia at age 7. Began his pharmaceutical apprenticeship at age 15 in Melbourne, 6 years later he joined Mr Longstaff, chemist in Ballarat, left after 18 months and set up in business in Sydney. Three years later back to Melbourne then to Ballarat, with later branches in country towns. The obit mentions his marriage to "Miss Walker", her death and his second marriage but no mention of the name of his second wife; also mentins three children but not named.
Interestingly he is described as 'a native of Ballarat' which beats me as he was born 60 miles away on a ship and apparently was not in Ballarat at least till he was 7.
I've had a hunt on the 1861 UK census as I thought they may have been there, also looked on a couple of sites for the ship but no luck in either place.
Hoping Richard may be able to shed some light for us -nothing about thsi lot is straightforward!
Cheers, Judith
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Richard & Judith
Sounds like a TV show in Uk! I now know where Tom Stone went to from Sydney in 1912-it was to a new fish canning factory set up by Tom's brother-in-law, Sir George Doughty at Skidgate on the east coast of Queen Charlotte island, Canada. Here George had bought one of the canneries, some land around it, and also 250 acres of land at Porpoise Harbour (Prince Edward) on the new Grand Trunk Railway. George's scheme was to catch halibut and salmon, can it and send it in refrigerated railway wagons to the east where it would be shipped to Uk.
Sir George visited British Columbia in 1910, and again in 1913, needed an operation in New York (in New York Times), The scheme failed, so that was why Tom Stone and Ennis his wife nee Reed went to UK in 1916.
Tom
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Does that mean that we wont be able to trace John Henry Reed's parents unless we can find out about the ship Beaucoup. Judith you said that there was no digger reference for John Reed born Ballarat but if he was in fact born in Port Philip Bay would he have to be registered?
Are there any baptism records for around that time and if there are where would we find them?
Richard have you any information on John's parent hood?
I too had a look at the census but without J H Reed's parent's names we are a bit stuck unless we search on suggested parental names from J H Reed's family names such as Pearl, Ennis etc.
Tom
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I had a look at the census using the idea of Pearl, and found a Henry Pearl Reed, born 1825, Bristol,son of Charles Reed a retired wine merchant from Devon. Henry Pearl Reed is a ship's broker, and was living in Bristol in 1871 and 1861.
Charles Reed in the 1861 census is shown to 35 and father of Henry Reed, but that's a misprint when you look at the original.
Charles and his wife Elizabeth live in Clifton, Bristol in 1851.
Not much further yet, so just a hunch so far.
Tom
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Hi Tom and Judith
I have John Henry Reed's Marriage Certificate of 6 March 1884. If you contact me through Ancestry I will email you both a copy. I can also email you a printout of the whole Reed/Stone and Walker family details.
John Henry is listed as being born as Henry at Ballarat in 1855 and his Parents were Henry Reed and Martha Mitchell . They had three children, Ennis, Oswald St John and Pearl Hawthorn Reed, who married into the Fagan family.
Martha died in 1860 aged 28 at 'Den' - (must be a bad transcription error) - somewhere in Victoria. There are three Henry Reeds in the Death Indexes to 1888 which fit the bill if he was born say in 1827 (five years before Martha was born). One died at Dunolly (the 'Den' in Martha's death records?) and the others at South Yarra and Brighton.
I am trying to find where John Henry and Anne are buried. Anne (Walker) is not recorded at Ballarat, Springvale, St Kilda or Fawkner Cemeteries so I have emailed the Melbourne General cemetery at Carlton. Otherwise I will need to buy the Death certificate.
John also married Annie Teresa Stone in 1902, the year before he died, as you are aware. He used his address as Rochester Terrace, Albert Park which doesn't exist. Hint of something?
Ellen Maria Stone, born 1861 at Melbourne, who became Sister Mary Claver, died in 1932 aged 63 at Brighton. Her death age of 63 is wildly off the mark and is either 71 or 70. Her name was shown as Mary 'Claver' Stone. As a Catholic family, she took the name of St Peter Claver (1580-1654), the Patron Saint of Slaves (he worked and died in Columbia).
John Henry's second wife Annie Theresa Stone died as Annie Teresa 'Fabiola' Stewart at Frankston in 1921 aged 52. I see in your chats a newspaper recorded her name as 'Stuart'. I have searched both spellings but cannot find any marriage up to 1942 (last date for the indexes). I have searched the Frankston Cemetery records but no luck.
Annie Theresa also took a Saints name (Saint Fabiola who died on 27 December 399 [or 400] who did good works among the poor in those early Roman days).
Look forward to seeing you from Ancestry.
Richard
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Hi Judith and Tom
John and Margaret Stone and their child Ann Teresa (1865-1867) are buried in the same grave at Melbourne General Cemetery.
Also buried is Margaret's sister Mary McGann, aged 49 on 8 Apr 1878. I haven't been able to trace a Husband or children and nothing in the Immigration records for McGann or Moran.
Re Judith's Message of 4 April 2009
Margaret Stone (Moran) died in Jan 1920 aged 48 at Melbourne West. If her death age is correct, this makes her birth year 1836/1835. This agrees with the Unassisted records for another Margaret Moran, age 25, arrived October 1860 on the Merlin from a British port. I initially leaned towards this one but Belfast (Port Fairy) is about 200 kms East of Melbourne by road. It has/had a Port so she would have had to arrive there in October 1860, leave her employment, take a boat to Melbourne, meet John and marry him in Melbourne by 1 December that year - all in less than three months.
I think our Margaret is probably the Assisted Immigrant aged 20 who went to work for Mrs Marshall in North Melbourne.
The Victorian Government paid the fares for migrants who were sponsored by somebody in Victoria in those times to increase the Colony's population (and especially females to balance the gender imbalance caused by the Gold Rush).
My Great Grandmother came out in the same conditions in 1914 to Victoria just before WW1 was declared. The ship was mainly comprised of single females, occupations 'Domestics' or 'Servants' with very few married couples and not too many single young men.
Richard
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Electoral roll 1914 Balaclava district St Kilda West
Alexander STEWART, Queen's Mansions occupation 'none'
Annie Theresa Fabiola STEWART, Queen's mansions, home duties
Can't see them on any other rolls but there are many Alexander Stewarts and Annie Stewarts. Had a bit of a hunt on the newspapers but couldn't see them there either.
On googling for Queens Mansions it appears to have been a classy boarding house - there is even an ad for it (see the Google reference)
Cheers, judith
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The only other thing I can find out about Eugenia Stone is this article cross referenced to Helena Rubenstein.
When she went to Australia, Helena Rubinstein took with her twelve pots of her mother’s face cream, a special formula developed by Hungarian chemist Jacob Lykusky. The Polish cream, sent to her from Krakow, sold very well in Australia. Good word of mouth from satisfied, well-known clients helped her shop prosper, teaching her the importance of publicity. After Eugenia Stone, a popular editor from Sydney, wrote about Rubinstein’s salon, Helena suddenly received fifteen thousand orders with money in them from everywhere in Australia.
Anyone like to comment at all?
Tom
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Hi Tom and Richard
Just looking on the UK incoming passenger lists and can't see any Stone or Sir George on the passenger lists for Macedonia arriving 1907. (I thought I'd have a look as perhaps Annie Teresa may have been with her sister).
I did see Sir George and Lady Doughty arriving from Montreal, Quebec, 1910 - no doubt having been to look at the fishing! George (no title added!) and Lady Doughty 1912 from New York, Sir George and Lady D from South Africa, 1913.
Tough if you wanted him to to do something for you as your parliamentary representative.
Unfortunately the National Library appears to have no holdings for Table Talk so I can't look up your references :( Helena Rubenstein was a very well known name in cosmetics in Australia and the story of how she began is well known. I wonder who Eugenia was writing for in Sydney? Is this th reference for the article - I have found a couple of other articles also which have the same information.
http://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/rubinstein-helena
Cheers, Judith
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Hello Tom
Couldn't see Table Talk in the Library catalogue but was looking for somewthing alse and there it was. Tom, I'll email you the article from July 1907 'Miss Eugenia Stone's Engagement" which tells of Eugenia's 'exceptional social success' and 'conquests on shipboard which opened doors of wealth and fashion for her'.
Richard, let me know if you would like it too.
I would be happy to have a look at other issues if we had any firm dates but there are many rolls of film for the magazine!
I can't find the Reed birth - it is not listed on "Marine Births" nor on Victorian BMDs despite the anecdote from the obituary plus the odd assertion that he was'a native of Ballarat' even though he was supposedly born on a ship and taken to England 'almost immediately'.
Cheers, Judith
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Judith,
You are like a dog with a bone!! That's good news about Table Talk, will have to think of a few dates to work from, all those reels of film phew! Such a lot of winding to do!!
I have some news about Sister Mary Ellen Claver from Star of Sea Convent, now college, who died in 1932.
Tom
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What a wonderfull thread this has been to follow.
Judith as usual you have excelled yourself, the proverbial dog with a bone ;D
RichardHowlong, welcome to rootschat
Just to say you can send personal messages to anyone now you have had three posts. See the little Scroll on the left of the screen as you look at it under your name. Click on that to send personal messages.
Jenn
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Judith,
As regards the "Macedonia" inbound to London, with Sir George and his new belle, Eugenia, on board in 1907. This ship called at Marseilles, France, so I think at least George travelled overland, by train from there to Dover and then by ferry to UK.
George did that on the way out to India, which wasn't just a holiday, he went out there to form a company, here's the newspaper article to confirm.
Times Court Circular Mon 14 Jan 1907
A large number of friends assembled in Grimsby Station last night to wish Bon Voyage to Sir George Doughty MP who left London whence he proceeds tomorrow to Marseilles to join the P and O Steamer Macedonia for Bombay. He will also visit Burma and Ceylon and on the homeward- journey will make a short tour in Egypt. He expects to be home at the end of March or early April.
He wrote several articles about his trip which were published in the local Grimsby Newspaper, he owned it!
Sister Ellen Mary Claver (Stone) was a teacher at a primary school at the corner of Abbott and Collingwood Streets in Sandringham, which had been founded in 1912, which she went to by train only recently constructed. Does that ring any bells with any rootschatter as to the name of that school and whether it still exists? She died on 10th July 1932.
Tom
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http://ndpbeta.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/4462175?searchTerm=Sister+Ellen+Mary+Claver+Stone
Here is her death notice, I do hope it hasn't allready been posted and I have doubled up.
Jenn
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Hi Tom - and Jenn and anyone else still following this marathon!
There is a Catholic school still in Sandringham but by the look of the photo and the address it is a new building, however it was established by the Presentation Sisters, and is not far from the address
http://web.cecv.vic.catholic.edu.au/schools/schoolinfo.asp?searchfor=E1081
http://www.shsandringham.catholic.edu.au/
As for Table Talk, see if we can work out a date for when she would have been emplyed there and I'll have a look at a few issues. It is the funniest magazine with all kinds of social chit-chat - a little bit like The Lady. I only found it by chance and luckily you had given a date - how did you have that information??
Oh, just seen Jenn's post but not had a look yet - how did I miss that LOL
Jenn, if you would like a copy of the article which is quite hysterical (in my opinion!); I think you'd enjoy it- PM me your email and I'll send it to you. Can't quite figure out how to do attachments to PMs
Cheers, J
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Judith,
Confession time!! Some kind soul in the past had had a look for me. I asked about this family before, on another system, not rootschat, and this person found this article.
But I don't have it all nor do I know anything else about Eugenia's time in Oz prior to her coming to England. I know she wrote articles here her husband's newspaper, on similar lines, and later when she moved to London, after George's death, she continued with these articles. We know she travelled to Uk, I think in February 1907, which was when "Macedonia" left Sydney or was it Melbourne and it "coaled" in Marseilles, besides who would be a passenger in the Bay of Biscay, a bit like the Bass Straits I understand.
I am hoping that the articles she wrote in the newspaper in Melbourne will tell us something about her as well.
I like that Newspaper site, the one with the announcement of Sister Claver's death. I now know this information as a result of receiving an e-mail from the Star of Sea College in Melbourne. I have already found the Argus report of John Stone's death. It will be interesting to see they if reported Thomas Stone's death in 1940 and his other sister's death in 1942, both papers here in Uk mentioned "copy to Melbourne Newspapers"
Another bone worrier!
Tom
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Judith & Richard,
I suppose we are no nearer discovering where this Henry Reed was born apart from Devon, no place name.
IGI has the following Henry Reed's born around 1827:
HENRY REED - International Genealogical Index
26 MAY 1826 Combe Martin, Devon, England
HENRY TOMS REED - International Genealogical Index
29 OCT 1826 Ilfracombe, Devon, England
HENRY READ - International Genealogical Index
18 JUN 1826 Crediton, Devon, England
HENRY BUSSELL REED - International Genealogical Index
04 NOV 1828 St Gregory'S, Dawlish, Devon, England
I see from Judith's last post that she is no nearer finding birth of John Henry Reed, son of Henry & Martha Mitchell.
Do we know when Martha Mitchell came out to Australia. We know she was born in Denby, Derbyshire, near Alfreton, where there is now a famous pottery. Her father was Charles Mitchell and mother Bessie Vallance, with siblings of Sarah, Emma & John.
Tom
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Hi Tom - do we have actual dates for those deaths? I am happy to look them up as The Nat Library has excellent holdings but I'm not trawling through a whole year's worth!!!!!
The online BETA newspapers are an ongoing project so are by no means complete. The Argus digitisation finishes in the 1920s at this stage.
Judith
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Judith
No we don't have actual dates so don't go trawling, that was what Sir George's fishing boats did!!
To anyone else following this tale, this is what "Table Talk" was all about: Table Talk 18/7/07
There was a large photo of her with a long chatty paragraph about her social success achieved by her culminating in her engagement to very wealthy ship owner.
She has been everywhere through Mr Shares introduction and been entered as Austral Institute as a brilliant Australian journalist & had every facility for succeeding. She made conquests on shipboard which opened doors of fashion and wealth. Mr Williamson introductions gave her open sesame to theatrical world. Once Sir George announced engagement she was summoned to Kings garden party wearing a dream of a frock! She was described as a true Celt impulsive, impressionable warm, heated ,witty ,plenty of dash, found of ready smart repartee pungent not spiteful whilst Sir George was reserved and quiet He is a widower with a married son and daughter and is up in the millionaire way! He owns Waltham Hall and a sumptuous London flat, and a Grimsby newspaper. She began her career on this paper 8 years ago schooling at Table Talk where she published verses and stories. She will be married at Brompton Oratory. Sir George is strict High Church and he has been given permission to marry in front of altar, rather in a side chapel which suits those of Roman Catholic upbringing. She has an elder sister, Mrs Reed who also married a Protestant widower of 50.
Tom
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I think Holstein House was once a school in South Yarra, Victoria, Australia.
Tom
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Hi Tom
I had previously tried to obtain a Google photo of Holstein House but no luck.
I have added it to my list of photos on my next trip to Melbourne.
Richard
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You wont find it, it's a block of flats
Tom
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Hi Tom
Well, if it's the original building I will add it to my list of Historical Mansions etc that I collect on my travels. It's another one of my hobbies. I just returned from Ballarat and took lots of photos of the beautiful buildings built in the Gold rush era. Fantastic.
Richard
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Did you find the chemist shop owned by Mr. Reed?
Tom
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Hi Tom
I vaguely recall it was in Ballarat. Can you steer me to the date etc and I will have a look and see what I have.
Richard
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Richard,
Obituary Mr J H Reed
The Ballarat Courier, Wednesday October 28, 1903
Mr J H Reed, who for many years practised as a chemist at 8 Bridge St, died at his residence in Camberwell at about 6pm yesterday.
This is the Last Will and Testament of me John Henry Reed formerly of Bridge Street Ballarat but now of Loch Street, Camberwell in the State of Victoria retired Chemist.
In the will of John Henry Reed formerly of Bridge Street Ballarat but late of Loch Street, Camberwell in the state of Victoria Retired chemist deceased.
Tom
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Hi Tom
My Family Tree 'Resizable Notes' for John Henry Reed quotes info from Judith from the Ballarat Courier in which a Mr Swift and the Company are quoted.
This is from 'Victoria and Its Metropolis 1888' - a Directory:
'Wm Ford & Co. (Geo Swift), Melbourne
This firm of Pharmaceutical chemists, wholesale and retail druggists, medical agents,
and importers of surgical instruments, of 65 Swanston-street, was established
in 1849 by the late Mr. Wm. Ford, who built the front part of the premises on
a building lease, and continued the active management of the business until
1864, which he then to a great extent relinquished, devoting a great deal
of attention to the wine industry, and associating himself with, and
becoirming part proprietor of the Tahbilk vineyard, the development and
present success of which is doubtless due to the energy and capital
he introduced into it. At his death, in 1875, the business reverted to his
son, and subsequently, in 1879, to Mr. George Swift, who up to this time
had been associated with another firm in the city (Francis and Swift). Considerable
alterations and additions have been made, involving an outlay of
over J3000, and resulting in producing the largest and most imposing premises
of the kind in the colonies. This business has always held a leading position
amongst Melbourne pharmacies, holding contracts for the supply of drugs
and surgical appliances to many of the largest hospitals and public institutions
in the colonies, besides supplying the trade generally with preparations
of its manufacture.'
Richard
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Richard,
So John Henry Reed would have had some considerable experience of working in a large company before branching out on his own. Did you find the building he occupied in Bridge St, Ballarat from your photographs?
Today I have had some more information about Sister Mary Claver one item which may need some clarification.
Ellen Stone was born 1/01/1869 in Australia. She entered the order of the Presentation Sisters of the Blessed Virgin Mary as a postulant in 1/01/1909 She became a professed sister 1/01/1912. She died 10/07/1932 and is buried in the Boroondara cemetery in Kew Melbourne, Victoria, Australia.
The presentation Sisters are an Irish Congregation of women founded in Cork by Nano Nagle circa 1754. Ellen was called in religion Sister Mary Claver and was one of the first group of women, who entered the order as postulants in the newly formed Central Novitiate for the Presentation Sisters in Elsternwick in 1908. As a professed sister she went to Sandringham School, a school founded by the Presentation sisters in 1912.
Apparently many of the early records have been either lost or were not kept.
Her birth date is a bit of a puzzle, as the Digger index has it in 1861, which would account for her age at death being so different.
Tom
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With this family NOT to have a puzzle would be a bit unusual!!
I think the Digger date is more likely:
1. The parents' marriage took place in 1860 so to have a child in 1861 would be highly probable - unless the child born in 1861 died and this is another Ellen.
2. I would have thought she is quite old to be entering a convent so maybe she wanted to appear a bit younger?
3. Ann Theresa is regiatered in 1869 so the birth of another Ellen in that year seems unlikely.
4. All of the children appear to have been registered so to have the anomaly in the registrations also seems unlikely.
I haven't had time to do a trawl through Table Talk yet - it's on the list for next week!
Cheers, Judith
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Hi Judith,
The Info comes from the Presentation Sisters, which I have questioned but many of their records have been lost or not kept etc.
I have some news from Adelaide as regards your investigations into Table talk!
I tend to agree with your sentiments, 1861 seems more likely, all the others were correct weren't they so why not Ellen's.
There are some lovely newspaper articles in the Argus of 1922/1923 about Lady Doughty's (Eugenie Stone) love letters to Arthur Tickler, a married man, boss of a jam factory in Grimsby. Okay she was a widow by then and a rich one as well. What is interesting about the various reports, and all the gory details, is that the articles state that Eugenia wrote for both Melbourne and Sydney newspapers.
Tom
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Oh Tom give me the exact dates for the Argus so I can read the scandal!!!!!!!!
What a hoot they are - lucky youy are only related by marriage!
Judith
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By the way, Holstein House-I searched in Melbourne Argus, and found that in 1915, it was the home of the speaker of the Victorian Legislative Assembly, Francis Conway Stone, from Inniskillen, Ireland.
This is the entry: Argus, Tuesday 22 June 1915, page 1
MASON. - On the 19th June, at his residence, "Holstein
House," 50 Murphy Street, South Yarra, Hon. Francis Conway, beloved husband of H.Emelie, and fourth son of John and Anne Conway Mason, Inniskillen, County Fermanagh, Ireland, in his 72nd year. R.I.P.
So Holstein House, the former home of John Stone and and his family was sold to another Irish man and a one in politics as well!
Tom
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Robyn kindly gave a link for indexes of Table Talk (see post titled "Table Talk/STONE family" so I had a look. There were three entries, each of which gave information only with the surname so impossible to connect them. One was an ad for Miss Stone who runs a hair removal clinic!!
Judith
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judb,
Yes I don't think our Eugenia would have done that do you? The database was fine but I notice that you have to pay for information about a surname which is a bit hit and miss. I also notice, from your comments, that the magazine does not tells us anything about Eugenia herself or the Stone family in general.
Tom
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No Tom, it doesn't say anything about the journalists. There are some twee articles about social events and weddings written in the first person but no by-line at all.
I had a look at a few issues and they were wonderful sources of information about the upper classes (or those who saw themselves as so) in Melbourne over the period. It would be a wonderful resource if it is ever fully indexed.
Luckily the index that Robyn linked to gives the page and date ref so it didn't cost me anything to look at the film copies. There is a full set at the National Library. I'm sure there would be a PhD in it for someone.
Judith
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Judb & Richard:
Holstein House, home of Stone family in 1914:
I have two photographs, dated around World War 1, with Holstein House circled, which I am sure will be of interest to other rootschatters on the Australian site.
Holstein House was in South Yarra, Melbourne on Murphy Street; so can anyone tell me the name of the church with the spire, whether they recognise any other building at all? What is the flat piece of land in the foreground? Is that a pylon for a tram car route in left foreground? Holstein House looks to be quite a large property but then so were many of the other houses in the photograph.
Tom