RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: trisholdham on Monday 30 March 09 08:38 BST (UK)
-
I am trying to find records on my ancestor James Grace who died in Camberwell Workhouse on 28th Aug 1896 age 82 yrs, he was a Blacksmith and was born Westminster in abt 1814, I was trying to find any details on him in the Workhouse but living in Australia it is hard to find any thing, can some one help me please.
I cannot find his marriage to Charlotte Oaks, she was born in Liverpool but was living in Lambath when she was with James Grace, I do have them in all the Census, she was 20 in the 1841 census in Liverpool, with her parents.
-
Hi there
have a look at www.workhouses.org.uk
I can find two records for James Grace at the moment, a workhouse death record at Stepney:
James Grace, Age 70, death date 28th March 1879
Also on the 1891 Census there is this person:
Camberwell Workhouse
James Grace, Pauper, Widow, 77, Ret(ired) Coachsmith, born Westminster
Linda
-
Thank you for looking, but I have his death certificate that is how I found he died in the workhouse, what I need is any information in the workhouse records, but thanks again for looking, and yes that census you found was him. I have had difficulty finding his birth place as all the census's say St Johns Westminster and Westminster is a large area and have no idea which church he was baptised in, if he was at all.
Many thanks
Trish
-
Hello
I was sorry to hear that James died in the workhouse, i am also an ancestor of his ,i found him on the 1861 census when he was married to Charlotte and living in Lambeth.on the 1871 census their daughter Hannah Grace was living with her Aunt Jane Oaks in Liverpool . My line is from his son Frederick Grace who was born in 1860 living in Lambeth then his son Frederick W Grace born 1883 (my grandfather)who died about 1960 .
Hope this is of some help i am still looking so if i find anything else i will let you know
-
Hi,
Good to know that you are from James Grace, my husband comes through Frederick as well. Frederick married Adelaide Hall in 1881 Deptford, I have Fredericks death 30/10/1936 Eastleigh Winchester and also Adelaides, she died 3/1/1937, would you like a copy, send me your Email. My husbands line then goes through James Grace the brother of Frederick born 1888 Lambath, he married Ethel Lillian Hall in 1912 in Weaste nr Manchester. I went to Winchester 5 yrs ago and got the deaths from the Winchester Records Office, also took a picture of the house they lived in, I was very lucky getting the picture as we did not have a lot of time as we were visiting from Australia, but my husband let me do some Genealogy while we were visiting my sister on the Isle of Wight.
I would love to get details on James Grace in Camberwell Workhouse but I don't think I will be making the long trip from Australia again, getting to old!!!!
I can send you the death certificate of James, he died 1896.
My email is - (*)
Bye for now
Trish Oldham
NSW Australia
Moderator Comment: email address removed in accordance with Rootschat policies to prevent spam and other internet abuses. Please use the personal message system to exchange this type of information. New members can use this once they have made 3 posts.
-
Hi,
I believe I am also a descendant of James Grace c.1814 from Westminster and his son Frederick. I have been trying to trace a Thomas Grace born c. May 1856 apparently in Worthing, Sussex (but I can't find any trace of this). Thomas doesn't seem to have existed until he married in 1889 in Winchester, Hants. However, recently I found Thomas Grace's Army Service Records where his next of kin (living) was shown as brother, Frederick Grace, Liverpool, 18/4/81 (This date would have been about 8 months after Thomas joined the Army). I noticed that James Grace's wife came from Liverpool and on a couple of censuses James's daughter Hannah spent some time there too. Family rumour has it that Thomas's father's trade was a wheelwright/coachman, which sounds very similar to what James did for a living.
Thomas Grace lived all his married life in Winchester, Hampshire and died in Bishop's Waltham (not far from Eastleigh/Winchester area) in December 1911 but another coincidence was that Frederick Grace seems to have moved from London to this area about the time of Thomas's illness and death at aged 53. Can anyone add any more details to either Frederick Grace's or James Grace's life. I would love to find out who Thomas' family were...
-
Hi WessexChris
Welcome to Rootschat ;D
trisholdham hasn't been online here for a couple of weeks but should receive notification that you have posted a message and hopefully come back soon.
Dawn
(Co-moderator for London & Middlesex)
-
Hi Chris,
Yes we do connect but at the present moment I am packing as I am moving to Tasmania from NSW Australia, but I have got a lot of information now on the Grace's, bear with me till June as I have already packed my genealogy files, and I move in to my new house 1st June, but I will let you know everything as soon as I unpack.
One thing I have found is James Grace's first marriage, but not to Charlotte Oaks, still looking for that marriage.
Bye for now
Trish Oldham
-
Hi Trish, It's been over 10 years since I last contacted you regarding James Grace. To recap, I have never been able to establish where my great grandfather Thomas Grace was born. Army records show he was born in Worthing, Sussex in 1856 and that he had a brother Frederick with Liverpool mentioned on the Army next of kin form. After many years of research I am beginning to think Thomas may be the son of James Grace of Westminster and that Charlotte may be the Liverpool connection. See my other posts to you from "wessexchris". I was particularly interested to see that in one of your posts you thought James had married before Charlotte. I'm not familiar with how RootsChat and this forum work so it may be better to email me if you can help! Looking forward to hearing from you soon. Best wishes, Chris
-
Hi Chris,
Your email has been taken off, so the only way to connect is through Ancestry, I have a pedigree chart on Ancestry .com.au the way to find it is to go into Ancestry.au
and put into search your James Grace etc and then look for people that have a tree on there, I should come up as Trish Oldham. Hope this helps.
Charlotte never did marry James Grace. James Grace was born 15th Sept 1813 Westminster - a Blacksmith by trade. He first married Mary Ann Bennett in 1839 she died in child birth 1845 age 22
James father was James Grace b. 1756 St Johns Westminster , mother Ann Elizabeth Blomfield they married 1803 Lambath St Mary's.
James and Charlotte Oaks had 6 children
George James 1847 Edmonton - married Jane Smith 1864 Lambath
Elizabeth Ann 1849 Nth Buxton Surrey - married James Henry Tivey 1869 Woolwich
Charlotte 1852 Kennington Lambath
Hannah Jane 1854 Greenwich Kent - married James Pike 1875 Liverpool
Frederick 28/6/1860 Lambath - married Adelaide Hall 1881 Deptford Kent
Alfred 1865 Lambath died 1886 age 20 never married, in 1881 he was living at 25 Sophia St West Deby with his mother.
Hope this information helps
Regards
Trish Oldham
-
Hi Chris again, just re read your message about Frederick Grace, his wife Adelaide Hall died in 1937 at Eastleigh Winchester and also Frederick dies 1936 also at Eastleigh Winchester. When I went to Winchester many years ago when my husband David who comes through Frederick, we did 6 weeks holiday in England from Australia and we found the house still there, I was tempted to knock on the door, but didn't. I do have a picture of the house.
unfortunately there tomb stones were up next to a lot of others by the wall, as the grave yards were being made into a car park.
Trish
-
Hi Chris & Trish
Rootschat has a personal message system you can use to exchange email details but you need a post count of 2+ to be able to use it.
A reply on this topic will help.
https://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
Dawn
-
Hi Trish, Thanks very much for your very quick reply and information. I found it interesting to see that there was a big gap between Hannah Jane's birth in 1854 and Frederick in 1860 - a perfect timeslot for Thomas to be born in 1856. It would seem that Charlotte and James Grace had some sort of breakup in the family as they weren't living together as 1871 and 1881 censuses show and several children were staying with relatives. I have never found any connection with Thomas having been born in Worthing, Sussex but I honestly don't think he ever knew who his parents were. He didn't even mention them as being Next of Kin on the Army attestation in 1880 - only Frederick his brother in Liverpool was shown. I also found it interesting that by 1911 Frederick Grace had moved to Bishopstoke in order to work at Eastleigh Railway Works. Locomotive building had transferred from London to Eastleigh in January the previous year so it looks likely that Frederick had moved for the work. My great-grandfather Thomas Grace was only 58 but blind by now and died in December 1911, so if Frederick was Thomas's brother he would have been living only 5 miles or so from him.
I know quite a bit about the area as I was born in Winchester and still live 5 miles from Eastleigh so if I can help you with more about Frederick please just ask me. I know of some good photos of Eastleigh Rail Works as my brother worked there for a lot of his working life! If Thomas can be proved to be Frederick's brother and James's father I can offer a lot more info for your tree! Looking forward to hearing your comments.
-
Hi Chris
Have you ever got Thomas's marriage, as they may have his fathers name on it .
If you don't have it I have found it on FREE BMD, but under Thomas they have the wrong ref number you would need to get it by sending off for Kate Grist ref 2c- 241 Dec Qtr Winchester. Your Winchester archives are great I was able to get a few certificates from them while we were there.
It does not look like Thomas was ever registered for his birth?
Frederick Grace in 1881 census was on the Vessel "Beatrice" as an Able Seamen. so he could have been living in the Liverpool area, when not on board ship.
Bye for now
Trish
-
Hi Trish, Thanks for your latest reply. Sorry for the late reply but I have been doing some more research. Re. Thomas Grace. I don't believe he really knew when he was born. I can't find him mentioned with any certainty on 1861 or 1871 censuses. It should have been fairly easy as I know his father (from Tom's wedding certificate) was George Grace and that from Tom's Army attestion form gives Frederick Grace as being Next of Kin alive with a date of 18/4/81, Liverpool. Was this a notable date for Frederick. From your info I can see that Frederick was in Liverpool around about that time although he does seem to have married later this same year.
Amy attestation for Thomas on 26/7/1880 says he was 24 years 2 months giving a d.o.b of Amay 1856 in Worthing, Sussex but no records have been found.
1881 census: Thomas was on duty in Ireland so can't see him on census.
Marr certificate 2/10/1889 aged 32 (father: George Grace, coachman, deceased) supposed dob 1857
1891 census: aged 33 (supposed dob 1858)
1901 census: aged 44 (supposed dob 1857)
1911 census: aged 53 (supposed dob 1858)
Burial (parish record) 7/12/1911 aged 58 (supposed dob 1853)
Death cert 4/12/1911 (supposed dob 1853)
So from all this you can see he may not have know his date of birth!
But I am beginning to think that Thomas may have been related to Frederick and James (George!) Grace. I'd be interested to hear from you with any comments. Thanks, Chris
-
Hi Chris
Have you done your DNA yet ? Dave my husband has on Ancestry and if you do your DNA with Ancestry UK it will connect you to him which will be a definite match. Your Thomas is quite a puzzle.
Trish
-
Hi Trish,
No, I haven't done my DNA yet but I think it's about time I did! Thanks for your advice and help.
Best wishes, Chris