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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: suziq on Friday 27 March 09 16:30 GMT (UK)
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Hi
I'm researching a family for a friend.
The family in question are called Haedicke. I have found them in 1901. Frederick and Jenny say they are from Germany and their son William is 13 and born in London @ 1888. They are in Hampstead.
In 1911 they are in St. Johns Wood and it states that William is adopted. Is there anyway of finding out where he was adopted or an original name?
Also unable to find the family in 1891.
Any help gratefully received
Suziq
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They're in Ballards Lane, Finchley in 1891 (Fritz and Fanny* Haedicke, both born Germany, with "son" William, 3, b Finchley). Also in the household are a Felix Merseburg, brother in law, and one servant: RG12/1057/13/18.
* I see that she is certainly Jenny in 1901 and at death in 1926, so the 1891 is possibly an enumerator's error, mistranscribing from the household schedule.
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Hi, I did see that family but I'm not sure it's the same one as further down the page there are other children mentioned and in the 1911 census it stated that Jenny had never given birth to any live children.
Am I reading the page incorrectly?
Suziq
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There are no other children mentioned in the household on the 1891 census return itself.
Don't rely on the transcription, which on Ancestry has incorporated the whole of the next-door Reynolds family into the Haedicke household and turned the Reynolds' children into Haedickes!
Anna
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Ahh, I have to say i was a bit confused by the original and the Ancestry listing so thank you for that!!!
Do you know if there is anyway of tracing the adoption at all? (Just to ask a bit more!!!!!!!)
Thank you for your help
Suziq
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Sory - I drafted a long reply about the adoption and then lost it.
Formal adoption (with records as we know them) only came in from 1927, with the coming-into-force of the Adoption of Children Act 1926. Before then you may find records if he was "adopted" from an institution which kept such records, but how you would trace it I just don't know. Adoptions also in those days were commonly informal arrangements between members of an extended family, for which no accessible records are likely to exist.
He doesn't seem to have been registered (at birth) as Haedicke. Sorry I can't come up with anything very concrete - there are many threads on the site about pre-1926 Act adoptions which may give you something to go on.
Anna :)
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Thanks Anna for all your help
Suziq
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Hi - this could well be Frederick in 1906 in Maida Vale, north London, having a trustee appointed... http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/issues/27917/pages/3830 (top of page).
Rob
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Hi Rob
Thank you for that, it does look like it could be him. But would he still be living in St. john's Wood and saying he was a retired merchant if he had been made bankcrupt?
Suziq
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I can tell you about this "adoption" as this was my grandfather.
I would be fascinated to know who you are researching it for.
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Hi Jean
Welcome to Rootschat ;D
Suziq hasn't been online here since Feb 2010. As long as she hasn't turned off notifications or changed her email adrress, she should be notified we have made replies on her topic. Hopefully she'll come back soon.
Regards
Dawn
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Hi Jean
Thank you so much for replying to me, I am doing the research for a friends mum, her name is Jan White nee Brooke. Jan's mother is Kathleen Marjorie Collins Haedicke who's father was Charles Richard William Haedicke.
We all would love to know the story and maybe I can put you in touch if you wanted to directly speak.
Looking forward to hearing from you!
If you prefer you can do private messaging
Suziq
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Hi Suziq
Thanks for your reply.
Hi Jean
Suziq refers to private messaging, you need to make 1 more post and then you can use this service.
Click on the green scroll under a chatters avatar (a really bright scroll means they are online) at the left of this page or go via, the profile tab at the top of this page. Under the chatters details it says 'send a personal message', click on that.
Hope this helps.
Dawn
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There are very few Haedickes in the UK so I knew it must be someone I was aware of!
I investigated this when my brother Paul "Doughnut" Haedicke died in 1998.
My other brother David "Gunko" Haedicke sucked out as much information as is he could
from the aged parents, but I have not managed to find out where Frederick Haedicke
and Fanny/Jenny nee Merseberg came from in Germany. Although there is geographically
a hot spot around Halle.**see note below Fritz/Frederick is like Dick/Richard. Fanny maybe the same thing for Francis. These guys all had millions of names.
My dad Kathleen's brother Douglas (deceased 2002) said that F&F spoke German at home
and lived in Abbey Road London fairly opulently (was one of the first people in central London to have a phone and always had servants. Another distant relative thought they had a sweet shop
in Bond Street but I cant confirm that.
What I CAN tell you for definite is that CRW's birth-mother was Rosa Collins a young (in teens) servant from Essex and I am pretty sure that she appears on one of the censuses. (Not confirmed but Dad thought she was Irish.) Jenny had no live births and Dad said she wore a wig, which indicates a degree of bad health in the ladyparts area. There is one very small piece of lined paper stating she gave the baby up in 1888. Though technically he was the bastard son not adopted. Frederick treated him as a bona fide son anyhow. CRW attended St Paul's School and studied at the bar, and had his own telephone number at his solicitors office by 1918. CRW only become aware of this when his father died.(?date) This does not sit well with the Bankruptcy mentioned above.
Maybe it was just the business that went down the pan in 1906.
CRW and Johanna Frieda Bertha Kurten married in 1914. (I have some info on the Kurtens)
** I have found another Haedicke in Bohemia, where Dr. Haedicke had a sanatorium. There was quite an artist colony in the summer season, in the 19th Century. This town has been part of Czechovslakia, Germany and Poland at different times making investigation difficult. (Now a Polish Ski Resort).
**I have found some Haedicke's who took up temporary residence in Somerset in the first part of the 19th Century who were outsourced to build a stretch of the Taunton Canal that ran through Kittisford and several children were born and registered at the estate church. It appears when their section of canal was finished they returned to Germany around Halle area.
** Haedicke is the Anglicised version. In Germany spelt Hadicke with an omlaut over the A., but I don't know how to do it on my keyboard.
OK? I am actually in Australia at the moment, but my brother David is in England for a few weeks and has a tin box with some hereditary stuff in it.
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Hi
I wonder whether this is "William's" birth registration?
Birth Jun qtr 1888
Charles William R COLLINS
St George in the East 1c 351
Anna
ETA: This wouldn't be consistent with a Finchley birth (per 1891 census) so it may be back to the drawing-board.
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Looks like it could well be.
Registered by the birth mum.??
Stunning work Anna
However thinking about this a bit more, how sad is this?
The Church is in Wapping which was Essex.
Wikipedia says St Georges was the office of The Poor Law in the area.
I don't know if CRWC had ever tried to make contact with Rosa.
I hope the poor girl was looked after by F&F . . .
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Thank you soooo much for all of that, it has confirmed my suspicions that Collins may have been the birth name as he gave it to all the children!!!! I will let Jan have that info but I wonder why her mum wouldn't speak about her family, maybe just being German at that time???????????
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Kathleens mum might not of known anything about it, of course.
She herself was born in England, she always claimed to be of Danish extraction anyway to me,
when she lived with us in Bexleyheath for a while when I was about 15/16.
Kathleen's mum also told me her name was Gwendolene.!!! :o
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Hi
I have just got the birth cert for Charles William Richard Collins. It states his birthday as being 17th February 1888 born at 28 Lower Chapman Street but his mothers name is given as Alice, an office cleaner. No fathers name or occupation!!
Any thoughts as to whether this may be the correct CWR????????
Look forward to hearing from you
Suziq
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Hi Suziq, are both the location of birth and the address of the person who registered the birth (probably "Alice"), the same?
If you or the other people working on this family can find his birthday from somewhere, that would help.
Certainly I cannot see a marriage or death for this boy under the surname Collins.
Haedocke is how Frederick's death is registered (in 1916). It may be worth seeing if he left a will.
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Hi
Yes I was hoping the dob may be able to confirm or deny this!!! I was also thinking about a will but don't know how to go about this (my own family never had anything to leave!!)
Any info would be appreciated
Many thanks
Suziq
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Hi
I'll be able to have a look at the Probate Calendars for England and Wales at the Principal Registry in Holborn sometime next week if that helps.
Dawn
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The birth-mother called Alice? is her second name Collins?
I am pretty sure the mothers name was Rose or Rosa Collins
My brother has all this in storage in England but is just flying out to Australia.
I also have it written down as well but need to go through stuff in boxes in the attic.
Also my mum once told me that CRW only discovered he was not Jennys child when Frederick died.
If he was indeed bankrupted in 1906 there might not be much to show anyway.
Some bits and pieces left by my grannie(Johanna) to my dad, turned out to NOT be genuine
and some stuff was just copies of older furniture from Heals.
So I am thinking there was a bit of "bigging it up" going on in later years, and
she definitely had a tendency to lyonise .
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Hi
The birth mother was Alice Collins of 28 Lower Chapman Street. Do you know CRW's date of birth?
Dawn - if you wouldn't mind that would be great, thank you.
Suziq
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I am sorry we never celibrated his birthday with him.
we had sunday dinner wi†h them frequently though.
I spent time with grannie mostly, helping her at the Cricket Club etc.
thanks for clarifying Alice although people often use a different name it seems
do you know if the birth record gives the DOB of the mum?
They married in 1914 I think.
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No sorry no dob for the mother, just says she is an office cleaner
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There appears to be a few alice rosa or rosa alice collins in the london area about the right age?
but the Charles richard william in the right order is a major plus wouldnt you say?
perhaps she became an office cleaner when she got pregnant and was no longer in service?
It seems like a very "modern" occupation for the 1880's
I am baby sitting elsewhere tonight but I will have a good look through my papers tomorrow.
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I would agree that to have 3 names and them all be in the right order is definately a plus. I thought the same thing about her job being very"modern" but you may well be right that once she couldn't be in service she did the cleaning instead!!
Have fun babysitting, i'll look forward to hearing from you!
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I am sure that Frederick was the ONLY Haedicke in London at that time.
Haedicke and Lipski's Contract 1901 is often sited as a case relevent to
the re-appraisal of Land/property Sale Contracts. Something to do with necessary
disclosures about encumbrances to the buyer. Also I think he would still be a
foreigner living in UK statuswise.
The Camden Road address mentioned previously is in a row of shops nowadays.
Also anecdotally the area where CRW was birth registered was smack bang central
to the Jack the Ripper murders in Autumn 1888. . . .
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I went to the Principal Probate registry ay Holborn and checked both Frederick Haedicke & Haedocke from 1916 - 1920 but there were no entries.
Dawn
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OK
CRW birthday confirmed 17th February 1888 died 16th March 1963 (greenwich rego area)
married Johanna Kurten on 7th August 1914 (marylebone)
after his exams to the Supreme court finalised.
(Johanna's father was dead by then- name-William Gustave Kurten) lived 29 Edward St central london
18 Aubrey House (Maida Hill West) was the solicitors office CRW had a phone there number3256
subsequently Lived at 45 Boxtree Road Harrow Weald Middlesex and between 1938-1940 at 774 Kenton lane Harrow Weald
(Frederick T Haedicke also had phone at 72 Abbey Road St Johns Wood no 1759 in 1908.)
When CRW died they were living at Woodstock in Hurst Road Bexley. I remember this house with a big gated driveway and wooded gardens. A new estate called Woodstock Close is there now.
JFB moved to a council flat in Plumstead after that, very much in reduced circumstances.
My mother hinted that there had been a scandal that came to light on the death of CRW, but to be honest there was no love lost between my mum and JFB . . so I took that with a pinch of salt.
My brother is sending me a CD of family pictures that Jan might like a copy of. Her mother was very beautiful.
Looks like the c was mistaken for an o in death rego.
?????Do we know how old Frederick T was when he died.
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freebmd.rootsweb.com shows him as aged 64 in 1916 (search with surname Haedocke).
http://www.historicaldirectories.org/ shows an 1882 entry for Haedicke and Bauer, 23 Milk Street EC and then a 1901 mention of Haedicke, Frederick at Norfolk Villa, Shoot-up Hill, Kilburn.
Also if suziq or anybody who has a copy of the birth certificate could confirm:
Are both the location of birth and the address of the person who registered the birth (probably "Alice"), the same?
Is Alice definitely the informant?
(if yes to both then that was probably her residence and it would be worth checking who is living there in 1891, at least to see what the character of the place was like at the time although she's probably moved on).
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Hion his birth cert
CWR Collins was born at 28 Lower Chapman Street 17th February 1888
The informant was Alice Collins of 28 Lower Chapman Street and was registered 3rd April 1888. I have just noticed that he is Charles William Richard!!!!
The address wasn't registered in 1881 and in 1891 Alice wasn't there!!!!
The marriage was witnessed by Alexia (?) Louise Kurten and Rudolph Kurten
Suziq
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it's not Alexia it's Alma and Rudolph and Alma are Johanna's brother and sister!
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REF birth registration. This was about a fortnight after CRWC's birth.
I am thinking that Chapman Street (now Tower Hamlets) was probably
"Alice's" parents address. The name on the slip of paper we have is deffo Rosa.
Friedrich and Fanny were still foreigners in the UK and may have done it this way
to ensure CWRC's UK status or some other legal reason. Who knows, in the census it states
he was born in Finchley. They seemed to move a lot??
This part is TOTALLY left field speculation.
I have always wondered why Friedrich immigrated to London.
This is a tiny snippet to base a theory on but Johanna's parents came from
Sonderburg, which is now in Germany after a plebiscite in 1856.
Formerly it was Denmark.
I have been reading that a lot of former Danish young men were reluctant
to be called up to fight for Germany and either deserted, went AWOL or emigrated (usually USA).
This would explain why (the Kurten's my great grand-people) came to London. (kinda)
Johanna's dad was a waiter in a central London Hotel. (census)
There seems a slight "class" disparity between CWRC and JFBK ???? ??? ???
and I am wondering if their families knew each other back in Schleswig Holstein.
Once again very speculative. There is a Haedicke hot spot near Halle, and I think they were
canal builders and mechanical engineers. I have found another Haedicke hotspot
in a very unlikely place. Kittisford in Somerset. They were not residents but outsourced to build a stretch of Taunton/Exeter canal through a private estate. Several children were born
and "recorded" in the estate church. All the names tie up with subsequent Halle Haedicke registrations in Germany. But NO Friedrich T 1852c.
Stay with me here.
The Kiel Canal runs across Schleswig Holstein and was a huge prolonged undertaking over a long period while it was both Denmark and Germany and it is not too much of stretch to think some of the Halle Canallers were employed on that project. H Haedicke was a bigwheel in Steam Engines and in one of the census Fanny brother is in England studying Railway Engineering. . . very tentative
***** Another snippet from my pa which I have followed up and got precisely nowhere, was that
Friedrich was a man of private means, because there was a connection to a lead pencil company, possibly by marriage to Fanny (Francis?) Merseburg.
******** Anecdotally, I have found with other part of my family tree, that quite often these family stories have a basis of truth, but have been assigned to a wrong person or time.
Any way thanks.
We have contacted Alma's (Big Aunty) daughter and her son Christopher who both now live in Norfolk.
They don't know what happened to Rudolph, although I met him once when little. 1950. He was fun.
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Hi
I'm sure Jan would love to see the photos, her mum wouldn't speak of the family which does give some leverage to the scandal theory, but we'll probably never know now!!!!!!
Look forward to hearing from you
Suziq
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Yes I regret not digging a bit more as all the relatives who can help are dead now.
How can I get Jan's address. She works in Paris doesn't she?
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I don't know Jan's address but if you want to send it to me i can pass it on to her daughter Clare. If that is Ok I will send you a private message with my address.
look forward to hearing from you
Suziq
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If you could PM either Clare or Jan's Email address to me I can probably send them in an attached file
or make some other arrangement. 8)
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Hello.
I'm new to RootsChat and have found the discussion on Haedicke an interesting one.
I'm from the US and have done a lot of research on the Haedicke branch of the family here starting with my grandfather, George Ernst Haedicke. The results of that research can be found at: www.George and LouHaedicke.net.
I'd love to learn more about the Haedicke family in England, Germany, or anywhere else for that matter.
Thanks! Waiting to hear from you.
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How utterly fascinating.
There is a LOST brother called Fritz!
When Frederick first showed up in the British Census he was called Fritz (Born c1852/3)
but I assumed that was a nickname type of thing.
How are you getting on with the language problem?
The German/Danish/Czech/Polish borders also seem to change regularly
to compound search issues. Lots of wars.
Have you had it confirmed that the original Haedickes were Jewish?
I would love to know this. I think there is a strong musical/ law and adventurer gene!!
My father Douglas Collins Haedicke was also in the military.
I will get back Jack, very busy today.
I would like to compare family photos.
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Thanks for getting back with me!
I noted that I mis-typed the family website in the previous posting. It should be: Georgeandlouhaedicke.net. Almost all of the pictures I have can be found on that site.
The language problem hasn't been an issue for me since all of my research has been from US relatives, including the Bandels from New York City. Without a doubt, there is a strong adventurer gene in the family....I would add military to that mix. All of my uncles and my Dad served in the US Army.
I have not heard of a Jewish connection to the family, although I can't say that it would surprise me.
I would like to learn more on all fronts.
Thanks, again.
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I read every word your website . .
Reading about your family was awesome. Like a great movie in my mind's eye.
I was knocked out with some of the Haedicke "con-incidences" it threw up as well.
My family have the worst 'itchy feet' syndrome ever, not to mention wanderlust.
Have you ever visited Rosslau on the Elbe in Germany?
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two things to clarify
CWRCH died at 102 Lodge Hill Plumstead. They had already moved out of Woodstock.
Ballards Lane was actually Friern Barnet at the time. There was a court case in 1901 in which claims were made for reparation. The local council had 'forced' the Haedickes to reinstate sewers
there but were in fact responsible themselves. This took some time to get to court! 8)
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Early picture 1888 of CRWCH in same year as his adoption
http://www.flickr.com/photos/50343402@N05/sets/72157624423033786/
I will be adding more to this set when I have a bit of time.
Sorry it is taking a while. I have to reformat and touch them up a bit.
More coming