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Research in Other Countries => United States of America => US Lookup Requests => Topic started by: saworth on Wednesday 25 March 09 15:27 GMT (UK)
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If anyone can shed some light on a total puzzle from our family point of view, it would be greatly appreciated.
We have an Alice James - born March 1873 in Canton (Cardiff), Glamorgan, Wales to John James and Mary Preece. According to family talk, she was a nurse and remembered as coming to the family house in West Ham, London, to tell the family she was going to America with a patient she had met whose surname was Foster. This would have been around 1911 to 1912. I have Alice on an England census in West Ham for 1881, but cannot find her on an England or Wales Census for 1891/1901 or 1911.
An elderly aunt - now deceased - remembered talk of going to Texas with this man. As she was single and about 39 at this point, maybe she thought it her last chance at a possible marriage? I have tried looking on Ellis Island but cannot find her. I appreciate in those days, they may not have even travelled together, or if indeed they married before they went. If there is anyone with any information on texas records - perhaps tax records? - I would love to hear.
Many thanks, Sally
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There are Texas death records here that you might want to check: http://labs.familysearch.org/
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Could this be a possibility?
1920 Census, 1065 Selma Ave., District 169, Los Angeles, LA County California
Forster, Arthur B., head, own home, mortgaged, 37, married, immigrated 1911, naturalized 1918, b. England, parents b. England, teacher high school
Alice A., wife, 46, married, immigrated 1911, naturalized 1918, b. England, parents b. England, no occupation
Dorothy A., daughter, 7, b. California
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I have found Arthur B. Forster and his wife Alice Aubrey Forster entering the US via Philadelphia in 1911, destination Los Angeles. Their last permanent residence was Low Fell nr Gateshead.
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Well done, erato - I think you may have something. On rootsweb.com's California death index, there's Alice Aubrey Forster, maiden name James, born outside US, born 19 Jan. 1876 and died 23 May 1959. The birthdate may be a bit off, but maybe?
The Calif. birth index has Dorothy A. Forster born 22 Jan. 1912 in Los Angeles with mother's maiden name James.
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I found a passport application for Arthur Blenkinsop Forster in Los Angeles. He was born Darlington, England on 6 Oct. 1882 to father Robert Forster. His wife Alice was born Wales. Daughter Dorothy was born Calif. They were married 29 Jun. 1909 and he emigrated from Liverpool 10 May 1911. He was a school master. The passport app. has a picture of the three of them, so if you're interested in it, PM me your e-mail address.
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They arrived in Philadelphia on 10 May 1911 from Liverpool on the SS Friesland. He´s Listed as Arthur Blenkirtop Forster and Alice's age is hard to make out - looks like 48, possibly 38?
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1930 Census, 1334 [unknown street near Acacia St.], District 979, Glendale, LA County, California
Forster, Arthur B., head, own home $15000, has radio, 48, first married at 28, b. England, parents b. England, immigrated 1910, naturalized, teacher junior college, not a veteran
Alice A., wife, 50, first married at 30, b. England, parents b. England, immigrated 1910, naturalized, no occupation
Dorothy, daughter, 18, single, b. California, no occupation
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Arthur was a French teacher. See:
http://socal-yearbooks.com/1930/1932lajcfac.html
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LA Times, 2 May 1965
Forster, Arthur B., beloved husband of Mrs. Lucile L. Forster, loving father of Mrs. Dorothy Plas, also survived by 4 grandchildren and 6 great grandchildren; a brother and sister in England.
Services at 10 a.m. Tuesday, Little Church of the Flowers, Forest Lawn, Glendale. Forest Lawn Mortuary.
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I think this is daughter Dorothy:
Social Security Death Index
Dorothy A. Pias
Last Residence: Monterey, Monterey Co., California
Born 22 Jan. 1912
Died 20 Jun. 2001
SSN issued in California before 1951
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Thank you Erato for all your help with this - much appreciated. I have found the marriage on Free BMD website and have ordered certificate to see if it is the same Alice. Although I know her sisters had middle names, I hadn't come across one for her, but would presume she had one too. Aubrey sounds like a family name and I don't have any lineage to Aubrey on my tree! With regard to the death notice for Arthur, do I presume he married again, as the wife's name is different. Don't know if the Alice had died at this point, or divorced. Thanks, Sally
p.s. These two were married about 5 minutes from where I live in England!
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The California death index has Alice dying in 1959, so he may well have remarried after her death.
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Many thanks for clearing that up! I suppose I shall have to wait for the marriage certificate now to see if she mentions her parent's names. I will come back to you all within the week. Thanks, Sally
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Having looked at the passport details, I see it says Alice is 44 at time of application, which would mean she was born abt 1879. Query now is that the Alice James I am after was born March 1873. Could there really have been such an age gap on official paperwork? I know census returns aren't always accurate. Thanks, Sally
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She seems to have repeatedly misrepresented her age.
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Just another query while I wait for the marriage certificate. Would anyone know if the ship would have entered via Ellis Island, as I thought all immigrants had to register there and I couldn't find these two there? Thanks, Sally
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Not everyone entered through NY; this ship went to Philadelphia.
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I found an entry in the California marriage index for Arthur B. Forster and Lucile Lenoir on 7 Jan. 1960 in Los Angeles. Arthur was age 76, and Lucile was age 69. Lucile Lenoir Forster is on the California death index with a death date of 3 Mar. 1981.
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Hi, I said I would come back to you all once I received the marriage certificate. The certificate certainly has alice james's father as John James (deceased), which was his name and he was dead by this time. The age she gave on her certificate would have her at the correct birth age. I am 90% convinced I have found her, but I am just so confused as to why she would give such a vast range of ages on different documents and say she was born in England when she was born in Wales - any suggestions? I also think that the name Aubrey - her middle name - must be a family name, and usually a male name to my knowledge - and haven't come across anyone in the family bearing that name. I have today ordered her birth certificate to see if it mentions Aubrey! I am very excited to think I may have finally solved the family mystery - with the help of you wonderful experts! To see a photo of her is fantastic too - on the passport application. I see on the daughter's ancestry page a leaf came up with a passport application in 1926 for travel to Europe - I don't know if this would have been the same Dorothy though. I suppose I shall have to wait in anticipation to see if anyone comes forward with a link to the family on my Ancestry tree, while waiting for the birth certificate. Many thanks to you all, Sally
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As regards her birth place, she may have said Wales and this was recorded as England by the person taking the data. Or the information may have been given by someone who was unsure of exactly where she was born. At any rate, I don't think I've ever seen Wales listed as a birthplace on a US census - I think it just gets lumped with Enland.
Lots of people lied about their age.
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Oh, okay. That makes me feel more confident about it all! Thanks, Sally
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As for the 1926 trip, I found a Dorothy Forster on the SS President Wilson from Manila to San Francisco 25 Aug. 1926. It says she was born Fortuna, California on 27 May 1911 and was living at 1630 Lincoln Ave., Alameda. No other Forsters appear to be on the ship. I don't think she matches up with the info above.
I also found the family on a passenger list for the SS Montlaurier from Liverpool via Greenock to Quebec, arriving 1 Sep. 1923:
Forster, Arthur B., age 40, male, married, naturalized at US District Court of So. California at Los Angeles on Sept. 7, 1918 (last number hard to read), address in US - Route 1, Box 59, Lankershim, Calif.
Forster, Alice Aubrey, wife, age 40, female, married, naturalized by husband's papers, same address in US
Forster, Dorothy A., child, age 9, female, single, born Jan. 22, 1914 in Los Angeles, same address in US
I just found Arthur's petition for naturalization, which gives Alice's date of birth as 19 Jan. 1874 in Llandoff, Wales.
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Many thanks Shelley for your input. I didn't know where Fortuna was in comparison to LA - I hadn't got around to 'googling' it! I suppose the passenger list for 1923 ties up with their passport application which was April 1923. Am puzzled again over Alice's birth date and place. I found her christening record on familysearch site which gave 20 March 1973 - and named the correct parents, so why would they give a different date for the naturalisation papers - I haven't come across any other family member who has changed their age so much as Alice - perhaps because she was that much younger than the husband? I googled Llandoff and it is a hop, skip and a jump away from Canton - another suburb of Cardiff, which is where the christening took place. I shall look up the ship from 1923 on the internet and see what I find. Presumably they left the States around May/Jun heading for Europe. Presumably a French teacher's wages must have been pretty good in those times to afford the travelling they did in Europe?! Sally
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Hi, I'm still mulling this all over!' Would anyone be able to give me details on Dorothy's marriage to someone 'Plas' or 'Pias' and where that may have taken place? Thanks again for all your help everyone. Sally :)
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Hi Erato,
Could you point me in the right direction to see where I can find the information you found on the Forster's arrival into Philadelphia? I have found Arthur B. Forster and his wife Alice Aubrey Forster entering the US via Philadelphia in 1911, destination Los Angeles. Their last permanent residence was Low Fell nr Gateshead.
Also, where could I find a copy of the LA Times information for Arthur Forster and would there be the same for Alice who died in 1959?
LA Times, 2 May 1965
Forster, Arthur B., beloved husband of Mrs. Lucile L. Forster, loving father of Mrs. Dorothy Plas, also survived by 4 grandchildren and 6 great grandchildren; a brother and sister in England.
Services at 10 a.m. Tuesday, Little Church of the Flowers, Forest Lawn, Glendale. Forest Lawn Mortuary.
Many thanks for your help. Sally :)
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I believe both of those are on Ancestry.com, but you would need a subscription for the US portion.
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Oh, okay, thank you Shelley. I hadn't thought of the US Ancestry having the information. Will look into it. Thanks, Sally :-\
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Hi, I have today received Alice James's birth certificate - with no mention of the name Aubrey! The parents' names are correct and her birth date is given as 19th Jan 1873. I see earlier on in this conversation it was mentioned as 19 Jan 1876 - so at least the day and month ties in - if not the year! I have tried to eliminate any other Alice Aubrey women on births, but on freebmd only first names appeared to be given. It does seem strange to me that all her siblings had middle names, but not her. Her father was actually a blacksmith, who came from Wales to London to work on the railways. She had him down as an engineer on the marriage certificate - again, would I take that as being the same job more or less, in her eyes anyway?
If I could just clear up the Aubrey part of this, I could presume this must be 'my' Alice, but am wary to get too excited in case I have totally the wrong person. Can anyone help me to find out if this is one and the same person? I would have thought she would have had to have added the name Aubrey officially somewhere, if this is the same person. ??? Many thanks, Sally
p.s. I have got the USA portion of Ancestry, but can Erato please tell me where she found them arriving on the SS Friesland? Thanks
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They are in the Philadelphia passenger lisr - search for Arthur Forster.
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Many thanks Erato, I shall have a look around for the passenger lists. With your apparent years of knowledge, if you were me, would you take this to be the same person that I am looking for, or do you think the issue with the middle name would make you think it might not be? :-\ Thanks, Sally
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Not so many years of experience, but if the only real issue is the middle name, I wouldn't consider that to be much of a problem. Perhaps Aubrey refers to a family friend, or it was a name that was in the news at the time. I have ancestors whose names were chosen for those kind of reaons - one named after a presidential candidate, one after a college president, one after a postmaster, etc.
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Ok, Erato, many thanks for all your help with all this. I shall presume it is 'My' Alice, unless something comes up in the future to question it! I don't know why she would have bothered to add a middle name for the sake of it - if only she knew the confusion she was going to cause over 100 years later! :) Sally
p.s. Thank you too to Shelley for all her help.
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You could look around to see if there was anyone named Aubrey [first name or surname] at the time and place where she was born. You might find a neighbor or prominent local citizen or clergyman or something who was the source of the name.
I don't know enough about English birth certificates to know whether it is critical that no middle name was mentioned. Maybe they just couldn't decide and so left her with no middle name initially and then Aubrey was added unofficially later. Surely tacking on a middle name later wouldn't require any formal name change. I have an inlaw who was just registered in the US with initials because his parents couldn't decide.
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It isn't important to have a middle name - one of my children has and the other hasn't (because we thought his name would look too long when he had to write it down on forms!) It just seems very unusual to add one later in life. I am thinking the best way to go with this, from the information you and Shelley have found for me, is to make contact on the web somewhere in Monterey, looking for descendants and see if anyone replies?! :)
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It just seems very unusual to add one later in life.
Whatever. It doesn't strike me as at all odd.
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Hello from California, I just discovered this conversation and signed up to participate. Alice Aubrey James and Arthur Blenkinsop Forster were my grandparents. I've done my searches an Ancestry.com. There is a mystery regarding Alice's family of origin. She said she was raised by two spinster aunts with no mention of parents nor siblings. She grew up in Wales, went into service at a manor house as a lady's maid. She went on to train as a nurse. While working in a hospital in London she met her future husband Arthur who was hospitalized for TB. He'd had treatment at a sanatorium in Arosa, Switzerland. The doctor in London urged him to immigrate to California for his health condition. He was a graduate of the University of Edinburgh: In California he taught French and at Hollywood High School. In summery, Alice's story doesn't fit with the documents I've found on Ancestry. Many people have reached out to me trying to make a match with my grandmother Alice but none of the documentation of family of origin seem to support her story. Cheers, CP in California
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Hi, I'm still mulling this all over!' Would anyone be able to give me details on Dorothy's marriage to someone 'Plas' or 'Pias' and where that may have taken place? Thanks again for all your help everyone. Sally :) Dorothy was my mother, Charles Pias my father. They were married in Del Mar California.
I found an entry in the California marriage index for Arthur B. Forster and Lucile Lenoir on 7 Jan. 1960 in Los Angeles. Arthur was age 76, and Lucile was age 69. Lucile Lenoir Forster is on the California death index with a death date of 3 Mar. 1981.
After the death of my grandfather Arthur's 1st wife Alice, he married a former colleague Lucile Lenoir ' a French language teacher who was born in France.
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Many thanks Shelley for your input. I didn't know where Fortuna was in comparison to LA - I hadn't got around to 'googling' it! I suppose the passenger list for 1923 ties up with their passport application which was April 1923. Am puzzled again over Alice's birth date and place. I found her christening record on familysearch site which gave 20 March 1973 - and named the correct parents, so why would they give a different date for the naturalisation papers - I haven't come across any other family member who has changed their age so much as Alice - perhaps because she was that much younger than the husband? I googled Llandoff and it is a hop, skip and a jump away from Canton - another suburb of Cardiff, which is where the christening took place. I shall look up the ship from 1923 on the internet and see what I find. Presumably they left the States around May/Jun heading for Europe. Presumably a French teacher's wages must have been pretty good in those times to afford the travelling they did in Europe?! Sally
Arthur and Alice were my grandparents, their only child Dorothy was my mother. She was born January 1912. My grandmother was older than her husband Arthur. The trip they took to Europe which required passports was to take a group of students from California on the Grand Tour, lead by my grandfather Arthur. My mother wrote a journal of the trip.
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It looks like saworth was last active on RootsChat about six weeks ago. With any luck, s/he will get an e-mail notification of your posts and reply soon.
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It looks like saworth was last active on RootsChat about six weeks ago. With any luck, s/he will get an e-mail notification of your posts and reply soon.
Thanks Erato! I just landed on this platform and trying to navigate the format.