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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cumberland => Topic started by: july on Tuesday 24 March 09 20:44 GMT (UK)
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I have just read an interesting book about the lanes of carlisle, but there was no mention of the lanes where my ancesters were living.
The lanes i am looking for are, Blackwell lane, St nicholas st, Water lane English st, does this mean water lane off english st as this is how it is written on the birth certificate, on another certificate i have Water lane st cuthbert, english st a bit confusing.
Would these lanes have been in a better area of Carlisle for people who had a profession my ancesters were working on the railways
July
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Geoff is going to better at this than me BUT "The Lanes" , now a posh shopping precinct were the lowest of the low. What worries me (and here is where I need Geoff's help cos he's good on these ancient maps) is none of these names gell with the modern "lanes". They are on the "Scotch st." side of town and the St. Nicholas, Water lane English st are on the other!
HELP Geoff.
July, I promise we'll get there (Won't we Geoff?)
bob
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Thanks for the buildup Bob, I don't know Carlisle at all ;)
St Nicholas St - http://tinyurl.com/cuxmac
"ENGLISH STREET, a township in the parish of Carlisle St. Cuthbert, city of Carlisle, county Cumberland."
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No but you're good at them old maps! Come to think of it there is still some lanes off English st at the side of M & S and there is a Blackwell Rd to the south not too far from St. Nicholas. And st cuthbert is the parish church covering english st.
bob
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hi july
in october 20th 2008 news and star paper there was a 1899 map of some of the old lanes. you could write to the news paper who have an office on the corner of bank street just a few yards from where the old lanes were
janet
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Thank you for your replies i will write to the newspaper to see if they can shed some light on this
July
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Forgot to check on Saturday when I was sent for the shopping so went today specially. There is no Water lane but there are 2 unnamed lanes off English st so it could have been one of them.
bob
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Hi July, Bob, Goeff
Yes, I was looking at those two lanes a few days ago and I thought if I got my old map sheets out, I'd be able to name them, but sure enough, no name on the map either.
Even so, for Water Lane, would it be too far away to be in the old houses that have gone, down by the river? Was it Engliush Street itself or just that area I wonder? I wonder if it's on a census?
I'll try looking"!
Emms
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A few here - Steve Bulman's site, 1811 Principle Inhabitants of Carlisle.
I haven't seen this bit before. It's great.
A coup[e say "Water Lane, Botchergate and English St" though, so is it at the top p of Botchergate or behind the station - or under it? The street my ggg grandmother died in is under a platform at Euston Station!
Emms
http://www.stevebulman.f9.co.uk/cumbria/jollie_carlisle_f.html
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Hi again
From the Carlisle History pages:
1818, Jackson and Graham cotton mill, Water Lane, 6 stories!
http://www.carlislehistory.co.uk/carlislehistoryj.html
Emms
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Hi
Also on Carlisle History, page linked below: Mentions an explosion of the Gasometer on Water Lane. Same area as used recently for gas? Same Water Lane? 1826!
http://www.carlislehistory.co.uk/carlislehistoryg.html
Emms
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In the pub lists, there are a couple of pubs listed in water lane. But it can't be where the modern gasometwers were - they were nowhere near English st or St Cuthberts - but they were near the river Caldew! MMMM!
bob
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Hi There's a brewery on one of those pages too, which I would have thought would have used water.
I'm not sure here. There's St Cuthbert's Parish and that went on for miles, depending on the date. More research required!
I'll see what else I've got.
I also looked for Blackwell Lane, and I can't see one on St Nicholas. There's not much called Blackwell Rd though. Could that have started life as Blackwell Lane?
Best wishes
Emms
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Hi
No Water Lane yet, but I've found John Wood's 1821 Map - before the railway - or a piece of it anyway.
He has Water Street and Water Gate Lane. How to explain? It all looked different!
If you think English SDtreet carried on to the top of Botchergate, before the cutting was made to go over the railway, when you get infront of where the station os now, The Crescent was then Court Crescent, and that had almost another half circle facing it where the station forecourt is now.
on the left, Collier's Lane still cuts through the hotel, parapllel to Botchergate. Where that opens onto Court Square, a street, Water Street, carries on straight through the Station. In fact I wonder if the first few yards are what goes acriss the lights from the Crescent to the station now.
It goes straight through and comes onto Water Gate Lane which looks as if it runs in front of the modern Matalan etc and Brown's Row - Old Cottages still standing? - and sout out of town. It starts at Caldew Brow.
You could also contintue from the end of the named Water Street across Water Gate Lane and over the river thento the left along the river to Long Island Cotton Factory. This unnamed bit just dotted. Wayer Lane?
Could Water Street have been along the exit of Matalan and over into Boustead's? There's a Bridge there. Too far down?
As for Water Lane, is this a red herring, or getting warmer?!?
Good Luck!
Emms
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Water st still exists behind Matalan and staples and runs into a dead end at the railway and ends at the mini roundablout opposite rome st (which is where the gasometers were!). I think you've cracked it emms. What if all that from the courts to the river was just water lane at one time? That would allow for the mill, brewery, pubs, housing! I'll stop and look over that bridge at the weekend when I go to the tip. I always assumed it was railway.
bob
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Hi Bob
So it is that one, then. I knew I'd seen that somewhere on a sign. I haven't got the right sheet for the next map after the railway was built - or I've misfiled it!
I wonder if Water Street was diverted slightly when they built the railway? It must bend round from what you say. Or I wonder if it joined Water Gate Lane in the hidden bit somewhere and that just became Water Lane then Water Street? I must get to see the next map!
I think I've got a photo with story of the old gasometers somewhere. I'll see what else I can find. Let us know what you find on the lanee!
Emms
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Hi again
Thinking about it, maybe they didn't divert it.
Water Street seems to go across Water Gate Lane, but actually it's an oblique cross, and they could just have made those two the main road and taken it around a bend, and called it Water Lane. ::)
The railway swings round when I think about it. Could this be the bit that goes along the front short stay car park and into the long stay one? I think I onece noticed a sign there on the wall as if it was a thoroughfare of some sort, which puzzled me. ???
And of course we have gasometers and so it's probably not a red herring! :) :) :)
I'd like to see the name in black and white though! :-\
Best wishes
Emms
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Hi
Just remembering the little junction where you come out of the station car park onto Collier Lane. I think that may be where Water St branched off. It goes almost right into the wall of the station.
Emms
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In fact would this be Water Street one end?
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And turning off Collier Lane?
(Just off to the right).
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And Water Street the other end?
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And a little further down?
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Emms, there is indeed a bridge on Rome st. I was beginning to doubt it as there is nothing shown on modern maps but it is the old track up to Upperby railway sheds. The next bridge over it is more noticeable - the metal one on the Bog rd near the old B&Q building.
bob
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Ah, That's why I was confused then. There've been two!
Thanks Bob. Not been down there for ages!
Best wishes
Rmms
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A thank you to all for your replies lots of info for me to look at
July :) :) :)
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Hi July
Thank you for getting back to us.
I've just looked back to the comments on your original post.
You said your ancestors worked on the railways. I wonder what the date was? It could have been when they were being built, but also, the possible road we have starts at the present railway station, but actually further down, can't be far from the branch lines and goods sidings so there may have been some railwaymens' cottages.
Best wishes
Emms
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Emms, I think you are right. Looking for something completely unrelated in historicaldirectories.org, I checked the earliest (History, Directory and Gazateer of Cumb & Westmorland, 1829) and on p154 there is a list of streets and squares of Carlisle with the following;
Water Lane, Court Square
Watergate, Water Lane.
In another bit, it says the railway to Newcastle is under construction but I seem to remember that Carlisle had 3 different stations (N/S, E &W) before they built the present one.
bob
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did some digging to find watergate must have been quite important as it had 1 of 4 carlisle schools in it - the lancastrian school. That moved to Mary st in 1834. Also found newcastle railway ran from the port road (between the biscuit factory and the hospital) where it joined up with ship canal. When this joined eventually with the N/S (Lancastrian) railway it did so at "London Road Station". We didn't go north for a few years after. Can find no mention of Blackwell Lane or even Blackwell Rd - presumably as they were well out of "Carlisle" in those days. Remember just about anything outside the city walls was in the parish of St. Cuthburt Without.
bob
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Hi Bob!
Wow! Fascinating stuff! I tried to do some digging but not as successfully.
I did gather that there were a good few companies with their own goodsyards - 7? Need to look it up when I come in. Also, I dug up some old photo's in a book of bits of station and railway being built. More round the viaduct though, so didn't quite get the right place.
I tried to work out where bits of Water Gate/ Street/ Lane had been. I looked behind Matalan, and there are various bits remaining, but couldn't fathom how far over the lane would be.
This stuff about the school though is fascinating. I'd like to find out a bit more about that!
I'm going to look at my map again too, after what you said on Watert Gate etc.
Thanks for getting back.
Emms
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On carlislehistory.co.uk and under w and watergate you get the following
"WATERGATE LANE Near John Street; so marked on Wood’s 1821 map of city
CJ 23.09.1826 p1f Ad. 22 dwelling rooms newly built for sale"
Now I don't understand the references but if you put john st into google I think the soft logic kicks in and you gate jane st near willowholme.
But all the other named sts are between cecil st and james st! which is where we had watergate. Could somebody bright like Geoff help us on this?
bob
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Hi Bob
Dragged out another map - not the latest, but fairly modern, Nicholson. For one thing, there were loads of tiny streets in the space you mention, which have disappeared.
For another problem, I had another look today and there are bits of streets on different levels because of the building of the railway, and the station. Of course there are tunnels underneath the station too.
We do know from the Wood's map that Water Street is the other side of Collier Lane from Cecil Street. It joins at right angles. I think it iss maybe where if you come out of the long stay car park, there is the remains of a lane formed of sets that hits Collier Lane almost opposite the doors of the hotel garage, just out of site on my photo of Collier Lane above.
On my more modern map, South John Street is between Crown Street and Water Street, as opposed to John Street near Caldewgate.
Having a think!
Emms
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Could somebody bright like Geoff help us on this?
Hi Bob, I guess once you have charm, it never leaves you! ;)
If you look at http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?X=339287&Y=556091&A=Y&Z=110 you will see a short stretch of B5299 linking the Wigton Road to Shaddongate ... I believe that was John St.
See http://www.old-maps.co.uk/IndexMapPage2.aspx
Search Carlisle
Move north a bit
Zoom in a bit
As I said, I don't know Carlisle at all :(
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1828/9 Pigot's:
The Cossack, John Sowerby was on Water Lane. Also various manufacturers and shops. I'd hoped for a tavern we'd recognise.
PF Doran has a school in Watergate Lane and Timothy Powel is master at your Lancaster School in Water Lane
Going to look at map again!
Best wishes
Emms
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Hi Goeff
An expert! That sounds like the John St on the other side. Thank you! A link to Old Maps. Just what I need!
Best wishes
Emms
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Hi
Earliest map is 1868.
Even by then, Water Street is more or less where it is today. Link is hopefully large scale around the station. I'm intrigued though. Maybe it's a boundary or something goes along where that bit of lane from Collier Lane goes, right across (Under>), the station and across James Street onto the river path that's marked as Watergate Lane on the old map.
I'm itching to find a copy of that book on the building of Citadel Station!
http://www.old-maps.co.uk/IndexMapPage2.aspx
Best wishes
Emms
Modified: Looks like you can't do that. Goes to the search page.
If you put Collier Lane in though, Carlisle is at the top of the huge drop down list, or try Citadel Station.
Emms
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Emms, on Geoff's second 1868 map, there are at least 3 thoroughfairs between James st and the station only 1 of which is named. Also there is a road/lane that runs right up to the station wall and appears at the other side right into collier lane where you predicted below the gaol tap (is that still there?). Also it shows the North Eastern Railway running under the bridge on Rome st and the Lamplugh Works cotton and woollen where the gas works is now but the road isn't named. I'll look for lamplugh works to see if I can get an address - it didn't come up on google.
The other interesting thing is that James st runs into Mill st at the top end on the route of what we would call victoria viaduct.
bob
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No, couldn't find Lamplugh Works but I made a mistake on it's location. It is probably still there as that large building just before the council tip (self storage etc). But I did find a Mains Manufacturing Co. Carlisle Ltd. on Water St although I'm suspicious as "Mains" were up London Rd.
The gas works were where the station is now and moved to Borough Mill Field in 1847 when the station was built. This is next to Mill Lane what we now call Victoria viaduct and not moved to Rome st until 1919.
In 1829 there is no listing for Mill St or James St but Water st and Long Island are there. And in 1894 Mill St is still there but a no Thoroughfare. It just gets stranger and stranger.
bob
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And Geoff, you're right about John st. There were 2 pubs listed that I recognised listed as being on it. The Malsters Arms only closed a few years back. I think what confused was its descripion as being on Church st - we now call that road Caldewgate - rightly or wrongly.
bob
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Mother went to a talk on the Lanes Shopping centre in Carlisle which knocked down most of the lanes between Scotch st and Lowther st and some clever person took notes. They were apparently quite labrynthine. Do you suppose I have to ask permission of the talk giver (Tom Watts of the coffee shop on Bank st) before I publish on here? I would hate to get anybody into trouble.
bob
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Hi Bob & Goeff
Thank you for all your replies. Not managed anything new, but keeping my eyes out. Some of the talks that have been given sound fascinationg. Copyright's getting more complicated by the moment.
Even so, I would have thought publishing the full notes without permission wouldn't be on, but adding a couple of facts from the knowledge gained would be another matter.
Best wishes
Emms
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Lanes Shopping Centre.
List of old lanes in Carlisle off English St/ Scotch St starting with Bank St to East Tower St.
Lowthian’s Lane (behind whatever they call the Midland Bank now.
Packhorse Lane
Kings Arms Lane (83 “houses” and 145 people in 1851)
Peascod Lane
Old Grapes Lane
Luthwaites Lane
Crown and Anchor Lane
Old Bush Lane
Globe Lane
Union Court
Hodgson’s Court
Keyes Lane
Law’s Lane
Sewell’s Lane
Bousfield’s Lane
Three Cannons Lane
All these in the space of probably less than 100 yards.
Then East Tower St. Not all ran through to Lowther St and not all were inhabited
On the other side was Lion and Lamb Lane.
bob
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Due to Geoff's brill maps on the backhouses thread, my apologies. The old lanes were probably 200 yards long.
bob
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Hi again Bob!
Thankyou very much.
Great to see them all listed like that!
Emms
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I guess this is a suitable place to post this -
Living conditions in Carlisle in the later part of the 1800's (not to be read while eating) http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45724
Moderators: Feel free to delete this post - B-G forums delete any links to RootsChat :)
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Hi again Goeffe
Fascinating reading.
Thank you!
Best wishes
Emms
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Good one Geoff. I don't know whether I've posted this before but it is apposite. I read somewhere that where English St meets the Citadel near that lane through to Warwick rd was the municipal soot tip. I suppose if the gas works were where the station is now, it makes sense. Coal soot is one of the most carcinogenic things known at the time so why they would have a dump in the middle of town astounds me. As a chemist, I should also know what they used it for but I don't. There must have been uses than lampblack!
bob
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Hi Bob
Sorry, can't remember enough chemistry to deal with soot! I've a horrible feeling I did once!
Just thought I'd say, I've been sorting through papers to try and limit them - again!, and came across some sheets of baptisms - 1840's and early 1850's - and there are consecutive entries for Water Street and Water Lane, so the two names were both in use at the same time.
Best wishes
Emms
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Just posted a new topic on "story of carlisle" but one thing in it was relevant to here. A photo of the townhall square and the green market shows a lot more buildings so presumably there were more lanes there as well.
bob
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... the municipal soot tip. ... Coal soot is one of the most carcinogenic things known at the time so why they would have a dump in the middle of town astounds me.
I don't suppose that they did know at that time of its carcenogenic properties.
I doubt that the soot tip had anything to do with the gasworks. Perhaps it was a place that the good folk of the borough could get rid of their soot. In those days, very few of them would have had 4 x 4s to enable them to recycle their waste at the out-of-town Civic Amenity Site.
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Hi all, I will be going to the archives in Carlisle either Friday or Monday, I will see if there are any old maps in there with Water Lane on them. Anything else you want me to look for? Morskaj.
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Hi Morskaj
Welcome to Rootschat!
Thank you for your kind offer. I thought I'd have been up long since, but I haven't.
I'll have to get up there, but if you do get, and do get chance to look, it would be really interesting to know what happens to these lanes around the station on the first mao after it opened.
I've got a copy of the early one before the station, but I think it might be early utilitoies 1850's and Ordnance Survey, 1860's.
Don't worry though. Make sure you get done what you need. Time goes so quickly.
I really hope you have a successful trip with or without Water Lane. The others were Water Street and Watergate Lane.
Enjoy Rootschat!
Best wishes
Emms
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Hi again, In case you've never heard of it, there is a great site on Carlisle's history at www.cumberlandscarrow.com. There is a page of maps. There are two maps, the second is in 1790. If you look at the bottom right-hand corner you will see the very top of Botchergate and if you magnify the page using 'tools' there is a place behind that could be Water Gate Lane, but it seems to be spelt with 'y's in it, so possibly Water Gayt Layne(?). Have a look and see what you think. There are a few other excellent page of Carlisle's pubs and other history.
If you have 'google earth' you can have a look at Water Street now. There is a roundabout at one end and at the other you will see that it curves and follows the wall built for the railway station. If you then compare that with the map, you will see that the possible site for Water Gate Lane is directly on top of the railway station now.
There is a book called 'Carlisle in Camera', I can'tsee an ISBN number on it, but maybe you could get a copy from your library(?), on page 33 there is a photograph of Mill Street after the Viaduct was built. (Incidently, if you do go on google maps - follow Water Street along the railway station wall and go as far as you can to the end and this was the site of Mill Street. You will see a building with a light coloured 'loop' on the side, this is the city bath's and the loop is the water chute!).
The lanes area of Carlisle at that time was extensive. It stretched from Devonshire Street all the way down into Rickergate, (just outside the city wall's), and on the other side fron behind the town hall, again into Rickergate. There were 8 - 10 thousand people living in the lanes, some with one open end and some with two. There may have been one or maybe two 'privvies', (toilet's) per lane, with up to 200 user's of them. There was of course no water closet's then, they had cesspit's which were emptied by farmer's every so often. That along with the Stable's, piggeries and cow shed's made for very unsanitary conditions, leading to outbreaks of Typhoid and Dysentry a few times.
Again there is a book with photographs of the lanes, it is 'Images of England, Carlisle, from the Kendal collection', ISBN 0-7524-2486-6, the pictures are on page 75. Would you believe these houses were still occupied in 1964!?! One of the pictures is of inspectors visiting, to try to get the residents to agree to the compulsary purchase order! (Note the tin bath outside the door!!). Anyway it's now late so I'll stop now. (Once I get started....), See you later, Morskaj.
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Hi Morskaj
What a star!
So we need to lookat some more ancient history, not just the bit we have missing in the 1800's!
Water Gayet Layne?!? Interesting! So it does go right through the station as I thought! But no evidence and you've provided it! I know the area and I'd looked behind the station and on Water St, but couldn't tie it in. I wonder if it went under where the underpass and old lifts are?
I've been at this quite a while, but never seen that site.
I've also got the Carlisle in Camera book, but I couldn't quite make the link! I've not come across the other book either.
Sounds fascinating!
We just had to wait for you to come along with all your extra input! Thank you for the extra background too. I knew the state of the Lanes was dire but not those details and the proiportions were even worse than I'd guessed.
You must have a really thorough knowledge of the local history.
Thank you for sharing!
I've not looked at your site yet. I will have a good play on that. It would be useful in the Cumberland resources if it's not there already.
Thank you again.
Best wishes
Emms
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Hi, I've found another site with photo's of the lanes of Rickergate on, it also shows you some history of the area. www.sosrickergate.com. The reason it's 'sos' is because they want to knock it down. I have a map (1821), showing Water Street and Water Gate Lane on it, but no Water Lane. Water Street as we know it now was not built at that time so they obviously relocated it after the railway station was built. I'll have to get hubby to scan it and then I'll send it on, See you soon, Morskaj.
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Don't want to be alarmist but has anyone managed to get onto either of the sites flagged up. My machine doesn't like them at all.
bob
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Try these- :)
http://www.sosrickergate.co.uk
http://www.cumberlandscarrow.co.uk/
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Hi all. I have tried to send the maps and they are too big a file to send, I will try to reduce the size tomorrow. Soz, Morskaj.
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Hi
I tried the link with .co.uk instead of .com as Goeff suggested and it worked fine. Fascinating thank you, and certainly gave an interesting background to Water Gate Lane and what the area was like before the railway.
Thank you again morslaj and thank you Goeff for thehelp getting it to work.
Best wishes
Emms
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Hi, I have tried to send those maps but I keep getting the message that they are too big. Any ideas? By the way, the one with Water Street and Water Gate Lane on has been mentioned before. The Wood's map of 1821. If you look at Botchergate, which is called Botchard Gate at this time, Water Street is at the Court Square end at right angles to Botchergate. It goes across where the railway station is now and then curves down and changes into Water Gate Lane. What is called Water Street today is probably as near as dammit on the site of Water Gate Lane then.
Anyway, if anyone knows how to reduce the size of the maps let me know or if anyone wants them sent to their e-mail address, let me know. We could always be cheeky and use a secure site like GenesReunited to swap e-mails!!! See you, Morskaj.
Oh by the way, that street that was mentioned, was it the B5299? is still John Street now, but in the past there were two sides to it, the side that was knocked down is now known as 'Paddy's market car park'.
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Hi Morskaj
Were you trying to post these? You have too get the file small enough to satisfy the Rootschat rules and the dimensions to fit reasonably on the page.
If you email it to someone, I'm sure they'll put it up for you. I would, buit it's more satisfying to do it yourself. Feel free to ask. You can exchange emails off board via the personal messaging system. (pm). Button to the left of some one's post opens a message to them.
If you open it in imaging software, you can use "File", from the top tool bar, then "Save for web" from the drop down menu.
Okay the next bit, and then tell it where to save it. I use the Desktop temporarily for things like this.
If it is going to shoot off the page you can use "Edit", "Change Size" or somilAar, and pick a size that looks appropriate.
Then just what you sound as if you were doing. (Post Reply", then "Insert image" or similar.
Exact detail will vary depending on the program and the version.
By the way' yes, I've a copy of parts of Woods, it was the other map I hadn't seen.
Best wishes
Emms
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Hi Emms,
I researching my ancestors who were weavers the 1841 census show they lived in Water St. Could you give me an insight into their living conditions.
Thanks ronnynel
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Hi Ronnynel, There is a 'History of Duke Street' that I can quote from to give you an idea of how weavers lived and worked in the City of Carlisle at that time. Handloom weavers engaged themselves with one or other of the big manufacturers, who supplied them with yarn newly-spun in the firm's mills to be woven by weavers in their own home. Buyers insisted on 42-43 yard lengths, known as 'cuts' for gingham and 60 yards for 'Union Stripe'. It took a good weaver about a week to weave a 'cut' working 14-16 hours a day for six days if not seven. It had to be done by Saturday or he was not paid. By Thursday many could be behind schedule and they would work into the night, it was said of Duke Street, you could walk through it any time of day or night and you would hear the shuttles working. All this on poor food in ill-lit, stuffy or draughty, noisy low rooms, small, damp, cheaply and badly built, crammed with four to six looms, lit by candles, heated by coal fires. From 1837/8 Messrs. Dixon issued tickets for payment of '1" 0d extra if work approved', but often it was not approved and the shilling was lost'. (This practise was much resented). In 1805 a weaver was paid 28s 0d for a length of gingham, in 1812 this had fallen to 11s 6d. Average pay at Fergusons was 18s 2d. Out of this the weaver had to pay loom rent of 1s, weft winding of 1s 8d, beaming, twisting, pickers,oil 6d, coal and candle 4d, house rent 1s 6d, total 6s 6d. The average family was 6-8 person's, generally living in one room.
In 1848 a report was done by Dr. Henry Lonsdale for the Carlisle Sanitary Association, to jolt the corporation into action. (The report then covers Shaddongate but the conditions everywhere were about the same). Houses let to several familes, one room each, windows wold not open properly. The properties were back-to-back, privies were rare. In all Carlisle there were only 20 baths and 49 w.c.s. supplied by the Carlisle Water Company. Most streets had stand pipes for water at which there were long queues and the water was kept in buckets in properties until used. Carlisle was plagued by 'damp fogs' which rose from marshy places, gathering grounds for filth and diseases.
Usually what weavers did, was dig down on the ground floor to a depth of about a foot or 18 inches, this made the room damp, which would prevent the threads on the looms from snapping. The families lived on the first floor, one family to one room. If you go to www.familysearch.org, and look up William Keddy, look for the one in Duke Street Carlisle, and see how many different familes were living in one house!! (Go to 'household' and then if you click on next/previous households you will see there are lots of families and lodgers in each property). Next time I am in the library I will look up the sanitation report for Water Street, though I don't think it will be all that different from Duke Street, but I will let you know. Better go it's late, (as usual), See you, Morskaj.
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Hi Ronnynel
Sorry I'm only just getting back, I've not been on much this week. I can pon;ly concur with what Morskaj has said except that I wouldn't have had the fantastic data to hand.
Put it this way, though, I certainly wouldn't expect Water St to be any better than Duke St.
I've not really used the sanitary reports, but I've done a study and used the planning (permission?) reports for the next couple of streets out of town to Duke St and in late 19C most of those still did not have bathrooms and they would have been newer than Duke St or Water St. Water seems a real mix of ancient housing and businesses including manufacturing units.
Like Morkaj, though, when I get in again I'll see if anything exists in these reports for Water St. They might start too late though, apart from odd bits of modernisation.
Best wishes
Emms
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Hi all, The lives of weavers in the 19th century were very hard. The cotton trade of America had drastically reduced the weavers incomes, that, coupled with the invention of steam and then mechanical looms was what reduced the wages earned so much. If you go to - www.stevebulman.f9.co.uk/cumbria/carlisle_factories_f.html you will find accounts of the lives of factory workers throughout the city of Carlisle. There is a section on the 'hardship of weavers'. William Farish is quoted in this webpage, he was a weavers son in Carlisle in the 1700/1800's and though it is said in the article about the fact that the family would not see meat on the table for weeks at a time, the quote I most remember is not mentioned, - that is, (in my own words), that 'his father was never as proud as the day he put a piece of bread in his son's hand'. This, (in case you have never heard of it), was caused by the 'corn laws' which kept the price of corn high, and so, the price of bread high. People at this time survived on porridge, soup made from bones and vegetables and cheap bacon for a taste of meat, (if they were lucky).
Jonathon Dodgeson Carr - of 'Carr's biscuits' was a man who objected to the corn laws and campaigned against them, he even had a waistcoat made that depicted ears of corn all over it in protest. (This is in Tullie House today!). He said there was no reason for the price of bread to be so high and wanted to bake loaves of all different sizes - which he eventually did, so that all people could afford bread.
Another place you can read about the plight of the weavers is in a book, 'Fire High and Do No Harm, Charles Thurnam, ISBN 0900744111. This is about the 'Shaddongate riots'. This too was about the corn laws.
A tory MP had gone into the Shaddongate area of Carlisle saying that the corn laws were good. The weavers kidnapped him, held him in a cottage and gave him a lesson in handloom weaving, - (though one of the papers say this was not the case!). My favourite quote from the papers at the time was that the council officials that were with him - 'Ran back to Carlisle as fast as their little council legs would carry them!!' The Mayor of the city went into Shaddongate with the entire Carlisle Police Force, - 2 officers, - the Mayor was 'beaten to within danger of his life and the police officers were thrown in the mill race. The riots, coupled with those in, (I think Spennymoor) were discussed in the Houses of Commons at the time as this was 1826 - only 35 years or so after the French revolution, which they were frightened might happened here just as in France. These riots incidently, are what spurred Robert Peel into pushing for a controlled police force throughout the country. Yes, Carlisle has a lot to answer for!!!
There is a photo of a weavers cottage at Kingstown in Carlisle at, www. geograph.org.uk/photo/643259, which shows how low the windows were in some cottages at the time, though not all were like this. (Duke Street were ordinary terraced houses).
So though weaving had been one of the best paid professions for a long time, things changed for the worse in the 19th century.
If I think of any other info or sites I will get back to you all, See you later, Morskaj.
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Thanks Morskaj for the interesting information on the life of weavers, I'm a descendant of a convict transported to Australia for seven years his crime was burglary. He along with three others stole seven loaves of bread, sugar & tobacco. He & his mates were found along with the goods they stole in a dwelling house in Brewery Lane. The 1841 census shows his occupation as weaver living in Water street. Your information about the corn laws & the price of bread gives some insight into why he committed this crime.
Ronnynel
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my family came from back duke st they mostly died young and were all weavers or in volved in some way they all died before their mother and she died in the workhouse eventually