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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: ALEPOHORI on Tuesday 24 March 09 20:22 GMT (UK)
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have just received death certificate for jessie mary sturthers, born c 1862 blantyre scoltand, father unknown struthers, farmer, and mother unknown cross, would it be possible with this information to any census relating to this family.
with much thanks
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Hi Alepohori
Trying to get to a starting point where we know it's her:
Can you please tell us:
when and where she died?
what was her married name (if she was married?)
What were her children's names (if she had any)?
Do you have her on any Census at all?
Cheers
AMBLY
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hi, the problem is she was married in australia in 1880 to william douglas shennan ( born in lauriston, scotland to john shennan and mary yann-unable to find any family info) however just realised it does say on death certificate she was in australia colonies for 74 years, so she was 87 when she died, so must have been about 13 when she came out, 1875, sorry, not much to go on, i have also wedding certificate which shows no family information for either party.
thank you
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Hi
Smelling a nice challenge - I've been beavering away.... ;D ;D
I'll post up what I've found, some of which you've just confirmed
Have found some information on other topics:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,368097.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,365452.0.html
william douglas shennan, occupation toolmaker, son of john shennan, occupation farmer, and mary yann, born 1860 lauriston scotland, married in australia in 1880 to jessie struthers and in 1938 (aged 78) to margaret ruby griffiths
Immigration:
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/indexes-online/
Assisted immigrants arriving in Sydney: 1880-96
Jessie STRUTHERS age 19, on Ship "Samuel Plimsoll", 1880
(No other STRUTHERS arriving on same ship, or in the 1880-1896 time frame)
(Age 19, b abt 1860/61)
Found marriage in NSW:
Jessie STRUTHERS and William Douglas SHENNAN - 1880 Balmain NSW
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/search.htm
Plus 3 SHENNAN births in Balmain to parents named William and Jessie
William J - 1881
David D - 1883
Robert - 1886
Another forum says William SHENNAN and Jessie STRUTHERS had:
They had 4 children, 4 boys and then a girl (sic - that adds up to 5?) The girl was my grandmother she was born in 1894 in the State of Victoria, here in Australia.
http://boards.ancestry.com/surnames.shennan/1/mb.ashx
The following looks very likely to me
IGI has the following submitted (therefore caution) marriage:
William STRUTHERS and Mary CROSS
Married: 14 March 1857 Bothwell Lanarkshire
IGI has the following extracted births of children to parents named as above:
William STRUTHERS - 12 Jul 1855 Bothwell
Alexander STRUTHERS - 3 Jul 1857 Inverkip (Renfrewshire)
Mary STRUTHERS - 1 Jul 1859 Bothwell
Janet STRUTHERS - 21 Sep 1860 Bothwell
Catherine STRUTHERS - 5 Feb 1862 Bothwell
John STRUTHERS - 6 Jan 1864 Bothwell
James STRUTHERS - 16 Deb 1866 Blantyre
Allan STRUTHERS - 19 Mar 1872 Blantyre
CENSUS (the children on Census who match births on IGI have been highlighted)
1851: Uddingston, Bothwell, Lanarkshire
parish: 625, ED: 4 / Page: 13 / HS 43
Head: William STRUTHERS 26, Master Carpenter Employing 1 Ap., b Blantyre
Wife: Mary 23, b Bothwell
Dau: Ann 1, b Bothwell
1861: Uddingston And Bellshill Rd , Uddingston, Bothwell, lanarkshire
Parish 625/1, ED: 4/ Page: 11/ HS 58
Head: William STRUTHERS 36, Joiner, b Blantyre abt 1825
Wife: Margt 33, b Uddingston abt 1828
Dau: Ann 11, b Uddingston abt 1850
Son: William 5, b Uddingston abt 1856
Dau: Mary 2, b Uddingston abt 1859
Dau: Janet 6mths, b Uddingston abt 1860
1871: Kilbride Road, Blantyre, Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Parish: 624 ED: 5/ Page: 4/ HS 95
head: William STRUTHERS 46, Master Joiner Employing 3 Men & 2 Boys , b Blantyre abt 1825
Wife: Mary 42, b Uddingston, Lanark abt 1829
Dau: Ann 21, b Uddingston, Lanark abt 1850
Son: R-----?? 19, b Uddingston, Lanark abt 1852
Dau: Elizabeth 17, b Uddingston, Lanark abt 1854
Son: William 15, b Uddingston, Lanark abt 1856
Son: Alexander 13, b Gourock Renfrewshire abt 1858
Dau: Mary 11, Scholar,, b Uddingston, Lanark abt 1860
Dau: Janet 10, Scholar,, b Uddingston, Lanark abt 1861
Dau: Catherine 9, Scholar, b Uddingston, Lanark abt 1862
Son: John 7, Scholar, b Uddingston, Lanark abt 1864
Son: James 5, Scholar, b Uddingston, Lanark abt 1866
http://genforum.genealogy.com/struthers/messages/14.html
Someone descended from James STRUTHERS, the son of William STRUTHERS and Mary CROSS who was b 1866
Cheers
AMBLY
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Hi
The ship, Samuel Plimsoll arrived in Sydney in Jul 1880
Here is a transcribe of the passenger list - with Jessie STUTHERS, age 19, Domestic on it, travelling in Steerage
http://mariners.records.nsw.gov.au/1880/07/001sam.htm
Some questions... ::) ;D
What month in 1880 did your Jessie marry?
Can you tell me what year she died and who informed of her death?
On how many records do you have her name stated to be "Jessie Mary"?
How old was she stated to be when she married?
Cheers
AMBLY
PS: "Jessie" is a common pet form of Janet - especially in Scotland.
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Hi
The family I'm looking at in Scotland...who I think are very strong contention to be your Jessie's family.
You'll notice only the children born after the start of Civil Registration is Scotland, appear on the IGI.
The children born before that year, and an extracted parent's marriage - do not.
This is an indication the family may be non-conformist - ie: not of the Established (Presbyterian) Church of Scotland.
The other important thing is - the son William is born in 1855. In this year, the BDM certificates of Scotland contained a lot of information.
From Scotland's People HELP:
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/
1855 birth records ...
the child's birth (date, place and time of birth, full name, sex),
the parents' names (including maiden surname of mother),
father's occupation,
name of informant and relationship to child,
information on siblings,
the ages and birthplaces of both parents, their usual residence and the date and place of their marriage.
Such detail proved difficult to sustain and entries were modified from 1856. Information on siblings was removed, as were ages and birthplaces of parents and date and place of parents' marriage. In birth certificates since 1861 however, the date and place of the parents' marriage was reinstated.
Cheers
AMBLY
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first of all thank you so much for all information, will sort and follow through, just looked on marriage certificate which shows she was married on 13th october 1880, age not stated, but on death certifcate states age at marriage at 21, date of death 28.11.1949, aged 87, name jessie mary shennan, informant daughter jessie jane armstrong, also jessie died in care, death certificate states she had 'senility' for 20 years. children shown 3 sons and one daughter.
was not aware of daughter until death certificate and your information showing daughter born in victoria adds up as i found family in victoria through electoral role but only showing boys names, jessie and william were divorced, but no year of that, william did remarry when he was 78yrs in nsw.
thank you once again
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Hi
Great :D
Pretty certain the passenger arriving Jul 1880 must be your Jessie. A lass born Sep 1860, would be 19 in July 1880. (I wonder if she followed her sweetheart out in order to marry, considering the short space of time from July arrival to October marriage).
Can find no other STRUTHERS arrived in Sydney between 1860 and 1896. Only Jessie in 1880.
You know she married in Oct 1880.
The death certificate says she was 21 at the time she married, so indicates born abt 1859
Possibly she was in fact only just turned 20 when she married.
The death cert says age 87 in Nov 1949 - so indicates born abt 1861/62
If she is the same Jessie I believe she is, then your Jessie would have in fact turned 89 in Sep 1949 and was that age when she died 2 approx months later .
The fact that your Jessie she died in care, was suffering from senility for many years standing; that her death was informed by a daughter who did not know her own maternal Grandparents names, other than a grandmother named CROSS : is all evidence towards the daughter also not knowing the exact age of her mother nor the exact details of her immigration or marriage. Most likely as was often the case, daughter was providing information to the best of her knowledge and in the process remembered or was told, some of it wrong. But usually there are grains of truth: I believe, the mms of CROSS, place Blantyre and the almost-age at marriage.
Also - from what you say and what has been found, the 1949 death certificate is the only place where your Jessie was given a middle name of "Mary".?? This indicating the daughter knew the name "Mary" came into it somehow, but didn't know it was Jessie's mother's name rather than Jessie's middle name? Or perhaps, there was a middle name (eg: a Saints name for a Catholic girl??) which was applied at christening but was not on the official registration of the 1860 birth.
As you say, the death cert indicates Jessie had been in Australia 74 years (1949 less 74 = approx 1875 arrival) - when in fact it looks very likely she had been in Australia only 69 years.
I'm so convinced - so I'll carry on with the Bothwell/Blantyre family census etc.
If they are the right ones, you have 2 more generations - Jessie's parents and their parents names awaiting you...just typing a bit of it up now
Cheers
AMBLY
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In 1861, there appears to be 2 children missing from the household of William STRUTHERS and Mary CROSS:
1) dau Elizabeth who should be age about 7
2) son beginning with R. who should be abt 9.
(These two, appear on the 1871 - Elizabeth 17 and R-----? 19)
In 1861, I believe Elizabeth is visiting her STRUTHERS granny, and "R" is Robert, visiting his CROSS grandparents. It appears both William and Mary had parents named Robert and Ann - and 3 of those 4 parents died after 1855 so their death cetificates should name both their parents (incl the maiden name of their mothers).
Elizabeth appears to be here in 1861 - visiting paternal granny:
1861: Larkfield - Blantyre, Lanarkshire
parish 624, ED: 2 / Page: 13 / HS 60
Head: Ann STRUTHERS 71, b Blantyr abt 1790
Dau: Ann STRUTHERS 38, Handloom Cotton Weaver , b Blantyre abt 1823
Son: Robert STRUTHERS 26, b Blantyre abt 1835
Visitor: Elizabeth STRUTHERS 7, b Blantyre abt 1853
R------? is I believe, Robert and he is here in 1861, visiting his maternal granny and grandad (and not too far from his parent's home either):
1861: Uddingston Mill Rd Bellshill - Bothwell, Lanarkshire
Parish 625/1, ED: 4 / Page:4, HS 22
Head: Robt CROSS 72, Shoemaker, b Old Monkland, Lanarkshire
Wife: Ann 63, b Old Monkland, Lanarkshire
Grandson: Robt STRUTHERS 9, b Uddingston, Lanarkshire
Cheers
AMBLY
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http://freecen.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl
(1841 ages probably rounded down to nearest multiple of 5, for those aged over 15)
STRUTHERS 1841
Larkfield - Blantyre, Lanarkshire
Parish 624, ED 5, Folio 5, pg 2
Robert STRUTHERS 55, Cotton Hand Loom Weaver
Ann 50
Ann 20, Cotton Hand Loom Weaver
Catherine 15, Cotton Hand Loom Weaver
William 15, Carpenter Apprentice
Marion 14
Elizabeth 12
Robert 9
John 6
ALL born in Lanarkshire
CROSS 1841
Uddingston, Bothwell, Lanarkshire
Parish 625, ED 7a, Folio 7, pg 11
Robert CROSS 50, Shoemaker
Anne 45
Mary 13
Robert 11, Shoe Apprentice
Ann 6
Janet 1
also in household are:
William CLARK 8
Robert CLARK 4
ALL born Lanarkshire
Cheers
AMBLY
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all i can say is thank you so very much for your time and kindness god bless.
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You are welcome ;D
last bit for today ;D Hope you can work with this all!
At a quick glance I think it's possible William STRUTHER's (Jessie's probable father) was later widowed and remarried, but not sure. Will look around for him post 1871 and for Jessie's siblings too - if you like, that is!
More Struthers' and Cross' you can shake a stick at!
STRUTHERS 1851
Larkfield, Blantyre, Lanarkshire
Parish 624 / ED: 3 / Page: 8 / HS 28
Head: Ann TODD 60, b Blantyre
Dau: Ann STRUTHERS 29, Hand Loom Weaver , b Blantyre
Dau: Elizabeth STRUTHERS 21, Hand Loom Weaver ,b Blantyre
Son: Robert STRUTHERS 18, Hand Loom Weaver, b Blantyre
Son: John STRUTHERS 16, Hand Loom Weaver, b Blantyre
Grand-dau: Margaret TODD 2, b Bothwell
Grand-dau: Ann LYON 1 mth, b Blantyre
It is likely Ann (nee TODD) is widowed.
It is possible her daughter Ann is also a widow.
Would need to check the original on SP to see marital status'. In Scotland, married women and more especially widows, often appreared on the census under their maiden names. Similarly, women's maiden names are used in death records (as well as the marriedname) and on death/burial records & headstones.
So it looks like your Jessie's STRUTHERS grandmother was nee TODD. The IGI has births of children (but submitted records) to parents named Robert STUTHERS and Ann TODD, which match.
CROSS 1851
Old Glasgow Road, Uddington, Bothwell, Lanarkshire
Parish: 625 / ED 3, Pg 10, HS 3
Head: Robt CROSS 62, Shoemaker master, b Old Monkland, Lanarkshire
Wife: Ann 64, b Barony, Lanarkshire
Dau: Ann 16, At Home, b Bothwell
Dau: Janet 11, Scholar, b Bothwell
Cheers
AMBLY
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AMBLY has done a great job at researching and much of what is here is correct as far as I know from what my Grandmother told me. My GGrandmother was Jessie Mary Struthers and she sailed to Australia to follow her sweetheart William Douglas Shennan.
They were married in Balmain.
They had 4 children, 3 boys William, David and Robert and 1 girl called Jessie who is my Grandmother.
I am not sure when but they did end up living in Victoria for a while but eventually came back to Sydney.
Can I please just clarify the names of Jessie Mary Struthers parents?
Is that John Shennan and Mary Cross?
Thank you for your help.
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Hi Florinda,
Wow 10 years ago this topic was started by ALEPOHORI! Seems like yesterday ;D
As far as I was able to establish, I believe Jessie's parents were William STRUTHERS and Mary CROSS, whom I followed around as outlined above.
ALEPOHORI did mention in the thread re: Jessie's husband William Douglas SHENNAN - that his parents were John SHENNAN and Mary YANN, but this thread didn't look into any of his side.
ALEPOHORI hasn't been active on Rootschat since 2013, but if still receiving notifications, may see our new posts here.
If I - or Rootschat - can be of any assistance going forward, do just ask :) ! If you start any new threads regarding things covered here, just include the link to this thread in your new posts (this avoids duplication of effort and helps give a backstory to continued searching).
Cheers
AMBLY
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Using Ancestry Immigration Deposit Journals -
Name of Depositor: SHENNAN James
Date of Deposit: 10 Sep 1879
Remittance made for:
STRATHERS Jessie 20y domestic servant "Samuel Plimsoll" 7/9/80
STRATHERS Catherine 18y domestic servant (refund for non arrrival Aug 1880)
Address: Budesfield, Blantyre m. Glasgow Scotland
Referee: A CLELAND Auchinraith Blantyre
Refunded or declined deposits
Name of Depositor: SHERMAN William
Name of Nominee: STRUTHERS Catherine
Date of Commissioners report: May 1880
Name of Depositor: SHENNAN William Nige Cottage Leichhardt
Date of Deposit: 21 Dec 1882
Name of Nominee: SHENNAN David 29y blacksmith, wife 24y, child 2y
Address: Lauriston Castle Douglas Scotland
Referee: SPROAT Wm blacksmith
"Gladstone" 7 Oct 1883
Name of Depositor: SHENNAN Jessie Weston Street Balmain
Date of Deposit: 14 Dec 1885
Remittance made for:
STRUTHERS Mary 26y domestic
Address: London
(refund for non arrrival) Feb 1887
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Dear Ambly,
Thank you! I am a bit sporadic in my research.
I find something then get all enthusiastic then get confused about who is who and then end up going in a circle and get frustrated and give up and then start again.
A bit like knitting for me:)
My Grandmother mentioned the Cross family so that is definitely a connection.
I have some hand written notes from my Grandma I will try and find and if any new information will add to the thread.
Thank you for all your help.