RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: ~Rachel~ on Friday 20 March 09 14:07 GMT (UK)
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Hello,
I wasn't really sure where to post this as it covers England, Scotland, Wales & Ireland!
I'm trying to find the birth record of Sheila or Joan Macdonald. (Full name on marriage cert is Joan Sheila Mary Temple Blackwood Macdonald). She was born on 19 Dec 1913 and died in 1994.
Her mother's name was Bridget Eileen Fitzgerald (b. abt 1885 in Dublin), and father either Patrick or Alexander Macdonald.
As her mother was Irish, father Scottish and she herself married in Wales I reckon she could have born in any of them! I've bought subscriptions and pay-per-views for each, but haven't managed to locate a record.
Same goes for her parents marriage record - can't find one in any country. They apparently married a year before Sheila was born, then on the outbreak of war he went off to fight and she went off to do nursing. Sheila was left with her paternal grandparents. Her farther came home to help deal with the flu epidemic, and died the following year so I guess around 1920.
I can't help get the feeling that something isn't quite right with it. I'd always thought that only single women could go off to do nursing. Bridget was in the Queen Alexandra Imperial Nursing. Not sure if that makes a difference. :-\
Anyway I'd appreciate any assistance or suggestions towards finding them!
Thanks,
Rachel :)
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in which country did bridget sign up to do nursing and her hubby to fight?
Pauline
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I've got no idea. :(
All the info I have is from my grandma, who is Sheila's adopted sister. (Born 1930.)Everything I know is just what she was told, I'm struggling to prove the info.
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Rachel - where did she die? Death certificates issued in England & Wales for 1994 would include the date & place of birth - to the best of the informant's knowledge. If she died in England & Wales it might be worth getting a copy of the death certificate to see what it says.
I don't know what is/was required elsewhere, but the same may apply.
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Hello Rachel
Is the person you seek Sheila Joan M Sixsmith who died in Downham, Norfolk 1994?
She seems to be the only one who fits the profile!
Can you plaees let us have full details from the marriage certificate.
How did you come by the details for Shelia's mother?
Regards
Ivan
*Sorry mshrmh - I didn't see the "red warning" until it was too late!!
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oooh that's a good one! She died somewhere near Norfolk I think so would definitely be easy to get. I guess it will depend a lot on who informed but worth a go.
I didn't realise you could get birth info off the later death certificates, I've not had to order such a recent one before. :)
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Hi Ivan,
Yes that's her!
Details of her marriage cert as follows:
In the Parish Church of Llandough, Glamorgan
5th April 1937
Hugh Leonard William Sixsmith - age 25 - medical practitioner of Wellington Street, Stockport. Father Charles Frederick Gilbourne Sixsmith, a medical practitioner.
Joan Sheila Mary Temple Blackwood Macdonald - age 23 of Fairleigh, Llandough. Father Alexander Macdonald a medical practitioner.
Witnesses Mehryn (?) Jones and Marion Sixsmith.
Up until I recevied this cert had always thought Sheila's dads name was Patrick...
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Oh and the details about Bridget are from my grandma again (her adopted daughter).
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Details for death certificate:
England & Wales, Death Index: 1984-2005
Name: Sheila Joan M Sixsmith
Birth Date: 19 Dec 1913
Death Registration Month/Year: Jul 1994
Age at death (estimated): 80
Registration district: Downham
Inferred County: Cambridgeshire, Norfolk
Register number: 13D
District and Subdistrict: 6331
Entry Number: 186
Ivan
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Downham is probably Downham Market, Norfolk or could be Downham or Little Downham, Cambridgeshire (both near the city of Ely, Cambs).
Ivan
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Rachel
Joan/Shelia seems to have changed her "first" name to suit circumstances or whim! Joan when she married; Shelia when she died!
The forenames "Temple" and "Blackwood" could be "referred names", i.e. surnames of ancestors. Did "Grandma" ever mention the origins of these? Any idea where in Ireland and Scotland Joan's/Shelia's parents came from?
Ivan
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Yes I had no idea Joan was ever a first name for her until I looked for the marriage record! I wonder if the person who recorded the death didn't know either... in the family she was always just known as Sheila.
Also the names Temple & Blackwood don't mean anything to me yet. They could well be ancestors though, as they're both quite unusual.
I don't know where in Scotland Mr Macdonald came from, but Bridget was apparently from Dublin.
It's all quite frustrating!
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If he was a doctor, then what are chances are that he served overseas WW1 as an officer?
Maybe his service record appears on somewhere like Ancestry?
Pauline
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Hello Rachel
If you decide to send for Joan's death certificate and thus ascertain the date of her death it might be an idea to then check the local newspapers of the time to see if there is an obituary for her. Her social standing and life story may well have merited more than just a few lines by the local reporter!
Ivan
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I've found details of Hugh Leonard William Sixsmith for you, specifically addresses at which he was registered with the GMC:
1939 and 1943 - Pant Glas, Coldbrook Rd, Barry, Glamorgan
1947 - 1959: Lynton, East Lane, West Horsley, Leatherhead, Surrey - and he is listed as having an OBE from 1947 onwards.
So presumably that will give you some idea of where Shelia lived at different times :)
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Hello everyone, thanks for the replies.
Pauline - I've had a look on ancestry but there's too many Alexanders to narrow it down successfully.
Ivan - that's a great idea about newspapers, I've ordered her death certificate now so will take it from there and hope there's lots of info.
Annie - thanks for that, I wonder what her got an OBE for!
Hopefully when the 1911 census is complete I'll be able to find Bridget & Alexander and that will give some more clues too.
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From the London Gazette 23rd Match 1944
Appointments to the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire in recognition of gallent and distinguished service in Sicily_
Major (temorary Lieutenant-Colonel) Hugh Leonard William Sixsmith M.B.E (116968) Royal Army Medical Corp (West Horsley, Surrey)
So! he already had an M.B.E. before the O.B.E. if the OBE was for service, possibly the MBE was as well?
Jen
Anything else will probably be in the Times index but can't get to it at the moment, both links from Bournemouth Libraries and Dorset Libraries are down!
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Found another way of getting to it!
Hugh's father's death is listed... April 4th 1936, Charles Frederick Gilborne Sixmith beloved husband of Muriel of Barry, Glamorgan aged 74... he was an old father? could this be Hugh's G. father... wrong side at the moment but will keep looking
Jen
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Hello Rachel
Presumably you knew that Charles Frederick Gilbourne Sixsmith also came from Ireland (source: 1901 Census). I'm sure that you have the details but if not please let me know.
Looks like he married Muriel Marion Dudley in 2Q 1901 in Bath Reg. Dist.
Hugh born 3Q 1911 in Cardiff Reg. Dist.?
No sign yet of a birth for Shelia/Joan in England or Wales.
There is only one entry for the birth of a "likely" Joan Macdonald in Scotland in 1912-1914:
Year Surname Forename Sex District City/County/MR GROS Data
1913 MACDONALD JOAN F ARISAIG /INVERNESS 091/B0 0003
1914 MACDONALD JOAN MACMILLAN F GOVAN GLASGOW/LANARK 644/21 1515
1914 MCDONALD JOAN F CALTON (GLASGOW) GLASGOW/LANARK 644/03 0324
1914 MCDONALD JOAN BELL F BONNYBRIDGE /STIRLING 473/00 0111
1914 MCDONALD JOAN DOBBIE F ST ANDREW (DUNDEE) DUNDEE/ANGUS 282/04 0186
1913 MCDONALD JOAN FYFE F GREENOCK WEST /RENFREW 564/02 0277
(Details not available on line, you would need to apply for the certificate)
No apparent entries in Scotland for "Shelia" Macdonald.
Dublin births are not yet on line!
Ivan
Supplementary
Jendor
Looks like Charles was an "old father" (per 1901 Census: born 1862 Ireland, occupation Surgeon) rather than being Hugh's Grandfather! About 39 when he married but then some of us take a long time to find Mrs Right!!
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Rachel
Ex NA
Recommendations for Honours and Awards (Army)
Name Sixsmith, Hugh Leonard William
Rank: Captain
Service No: 116968
Regiment: Royal Army Medical Corps
Theatre of Combat or Operation: Middle East (Egypt and Libya)
Award: Member of the British Empire
Date of Announcement in London Gazette: 18 February 1943
Date 1941-1943
Catalogue reference WO 373/76
Dept Records created or inherited by the War Office, Armed Forces, Judge Advocate General, and related bodies
Series War Office and Ministry of Defence: Military Secretary's Department: Recommendations for Honours and Awards for Gallant and Distinguished Service (Army)
Piece Middle East (Egypt and Libya): 30 Dec 1941-18 Feb 1943
________________________
Description Name Sixsmith, Hugh Leonard William
Rank: Major
Service No: 116968
Regiment: Royal Army Medical Corps
Theatre of Combat or Operation: Sicily
Award: Order of the British Empire
Date of Announcement in London Gazette: 23 March 1944
Date 1944
Catalogue reference WO 373/71
Dept Records created or inherited by the War Office, Armed Forces, Judge Advocate General, and related bodies
Series War Office and Ministry of Defence: Military Secretary's Department: Recommendations for Honours and Awards for Gallant and Distinguished Service (Army)
Piece Various theatres
________________________
In each case one document is available for downloading from the NA website (at £3.50 each) but I do not know what the document will say. Presumably each will give at least more detail than the basic “free” summary and since they are "Recommendations" they might give detailed reasons for the recommendation.
Hope this is of some help but it might be worthwhile waiting for any further information that Jendor finds.
Ivan
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England & Wales, Death Index: 1984-2005
Name: Hugh Leonard W Sixsmith
Birth Date: 26 Jun 1911
Death Registration Month/Year: Dec 1993
Age at death (estimated): 82
Registration district: Bury St Edmunds
Inferred County: Suffolk
Register number: C10D
District and Subdistrict: 7421C
Entry Number: 47
Ivan
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Thanks for the replies everyone! :)
I've bought the two recommendations for awards, both for his service in the RAMC. If anyone's interested I can try and put them up?
So the Sixsmith's were also from Ireland. It looks like Hugh did his medical degree in Scotland before living in Wales. I di know that Bridget livd with them in Wales for quite some time.
Still no closer to finding the marriage of Bridget & Alexander or birth of Sheila though! Ivan - I'm not convinced bout that birth record due to the middle initial but if I get no further clues will get it to rule it out. I have Bridget's death cert from 1963, and it just states she was the widow of ____ Macdonald a _____. At the end of the row it says 'no further details available'.
I've tried as many searches as I can think of in England, Wales & Scotland with Temple, Blackwood and Macdonald but no clues there yet.
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It looks like Hugh did his medical degree in Scotland before living in Wales
No, the GMC register gives his qualification as LMSSA, London. It doesn't say where his university was and there's no mention of a university degree qualification (!)
Where was the info that he qualified in Scotland? Did I overlook something?
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Hello Rachel
Please try to post the details of the Award Recommendations.
Ivan
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Still no closer to finding .... the birth of Sheila though! Ivan - I'm not convinced bout that birth record due to the middle initial
Rachel
I don't think there is "a middle initial" - I believe the "F" is for "Female"!!
Ivan
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An illustrious family!
Ex “Who Was Who”
SIXSMITH, Maj.-Gen. Eric Keir Gilborne
CB 1951; CBE 1946
Born 15 Oct. 1904; 2nd s of Charles Frederick Gilborne Sixsmith, Barry; m 1941, Rosemary Aileen (d 1983), 4th d of Rev. Frederick Ernest Godden; two s one d ; died 6 April 1986
Education
Harrow; RMC, Sandhurst
Career
Commissioned The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles), 1924; Adjutant 1st Battalion, 1933–34; Staff College, Quetta, 1935–36. Served War of 1939–45; Bde Maj. 2 Inf. Bde, 1939–40; GSO1, 51st Highland Division, 1941–42; Commander 2nd Bn Royal Scots Fusiliers, Italy (wounded), 1944; commanded 2nd Bn Cameronians (Scottish Rifles), 1944; Deputy Director Staff Duties, War Office, 1945–46; Brigade Commander, India, 1946–47; Deputy Director Personnel Administration, War Office, 1947–50; idc 1951; Chief of Staff, Hong Kong, 1952; Chief of Staff, Far East Land Forces, 1952–54; Commanding 43 (Wessex) Infantry Division (TA) 1954–57; Assistant Chief of Staff (Organisation and Training) Supreme Headquarters, Allied Powers Europe, 1957–61, retired
Publications
British Generalship in the Twentieth Century, 1970; Eisenhower as Military Commander, 1973; Douglas Haig, 1976
Recreations
Gardening, music
Address
Riversleigh, Langport, Somerset
Langport 250435
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SIXSMITH, (Philip) Guy (Dudley)
Born 5 Nov. 1902; e s of late C. F. G. Sixsmith, Barry, Glam; m 1933, Alice Mary (JP Glam), d of C. J. Birch; one d (one s decd); died 12 April 1984
Stipendiary Magistrate for Mid Glamorgan, 1966–75
Education
Barry County Sch.; Harrow; Lincoln Coll., Oxford (MA)
Career
Assistant master, Shanghai Cathedral School for Boys, 1929–35; called to the Bar, Inner Temple, 1936; Wales and Chester Circuit. Served War of 1939–45, gazetted 2nd Lt Cameronians (Scottish Rifles), 1940; Middle East and Paiforce, 1940–45. Deputy Judge Advocate (Major), 1942–45 and at War Crime Trials in Germany, 1946–48; Stipendiary Magistrate: Cardiff, 1948–66; Pontypridd, 1966–75; Dep. Chm., Glam QS, 1966–71. Chairman: Cardiff Rent Tribunal, 1947–48; Glam and Gwent Br., Oxford Soc.; Glamorgan Branch, Council for Protection of Rural Wales, 1967–69; Monmouth Diocesan Schools Cttee, 1968–70; Hon. Pres., Soc. of Stipendiary Magistrates of England and Wales (Chm., 1967–75); Pres., D. C. Jones Challenge Cup for Best Kept Village in Vale of Glamorgan, 1970–72 (Chm., 1967–69). Pres., Cardiff E District Scout Council, 1967–81 (Silver Acorn for services to scouting). Vice-Pres., E Glam and Mon Br., Magistrates’ Assoc. (Chm., 1954–66). Member: Council, Magistrates’ Assoc., 1952–71; Monmouth Diocesan Board of Finance; Governing Body, and Representative Body, Church in Wales; Court of Governors, University Coll. Cardiff; Court, University of Wales; Exec. Cttee, Council for Protection of Rural Wales, 1967–73; Exec. Cttee, Monmouth and Llandaff Housing Assoc., 1970–81 (Chm., 1975–77)
Recreation
Procrastination
Club
National Liberal
Address
3 Chapel Lane, Sutton Courtenay, near Abingdon, Oxfordshire OX14 4AN
Sutton Courtenay 7430
________________
WILSON, His Honour Harold
AE 1963
Born 19 Sept. 1931; s of late Edward Simpson Wilson; m 1st, Diana Marion (marr. diss.), d of late (Philip) Guy (Dudley) Sixsmith; three s one d; 2nd, Jill Ginever, d of late Charles Edward Walter Barlow; one step s one step d
a Circuit Judge, 1981–2000 (Midland and Oxford Circuit); a Deputy Circuit Judge, 2001–03
Education
St Albans Sch.; Sidney Sussex Coll., Cambridge (State Scholar; MA)
Career
Pilot Officer, RAF, 1950–51; Flying Officer, RAFVR, 1951–54; Flt Lt, RAuxAF, 1954–63. Administrative Trainee, KCH, 1954–56; Schoolmaster, 1957–59. Called to the Bar, Gray’s Inn, 1958 (Holker Exhibnr; runner-up, Lee Essay Prize, 1959), Bencher, 1998; Oxford Circuit, 1960–70 (Circuit Junior, 1964–65); Midland and Oxford Circuit, 1971–75; Dep. Chm., Monmouthshire Quarter Sessions, 1969–70; a Recorder, Midland and Oxford Circuit, 1971–75; Chm. of Industrial Tribunals, Birmingham, 1976–81; Resident Judge, Coventry Crown Ct, 1983–92; Liaison Judge, 1986–92; Hon. Recorder of Coventry, 1986–93; designated Care Centre Judge, Coventry, 1991–92, Oxford, 1993–2000; Resident Judge, Oxford Crown Ct, 1993–2000; Liaison Judge to Oxfordshire Magistrates, 1993–96; Hon. Recorder of Oxford, 1999–2001; a Judge of the Employment Appeal Tribunal, 1999–2000; an Additl Judge, Supreme Ct of Gibraltar, 2003. Pres., Transport Tribunal, 1991–96; Chairman: Coventry Reparation Unit Adv. Cttee, 1991–92; Thames Valley Area Criminal Justice Strategy (formerly Liaison) Cttee, 1996–2000. Member: Matrimonial Causes Rules Cttee, 1984–88; W Midlands Probation Cttee, 1985–92. Shrieval Remembrancer, Oxon, 2004–
Recreations
Watching Rugby football, reading and listening to music
Club
Royal Air Force (Trustee, 2005–)
Address
2 Harcourt Buildings, Temple, EC4Y 9DB
(020) 7353 6961
Ivan
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It looks like Hugh did his medical degree in Scotland before living in Wales
No, the GMC register gives his qualification as LMSSA, London. It doesn't say where his university was and there's no mention of a university degree qualification (!)
Where was the info that he qualified in Scotland? Did I overlook something?
ahh yes that's my mistake, his father is listed above him and it's his record I read that says Edinburgh. I just assumed the qualification was some kind of degree to be honest, so oops with that as well! And as for the F standing for female... I think I'd be best off just going to bed haha!
Ivan - all that info is amazing! I had no idea, which is so strange as obviously my dad and definitely grandparents are old enough to remember them! I guess if people aren't into genealogy then they don't think others would be interested in facts like that either!
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AAAAAAGGGH 20 days for cert to be delivered from Scotlands People!!
I'll have to learn some patience. :(
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Rachel
I hope it's the right one!!
I see that the "Recommendations" were signed (or countersigned) by "Monty". As I said an illustrious family!!
Please keep us all posted as to progress.
Ivan
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OK so I have the death cert for Sheila.
Died 18th July 1994 at Downham.
Name: Sheila Joan Mary SIXSMITH otherwise Joan Sheila Temple Mary Blackwood SIXSMITH.
Maiden surname: Macdonald
DOB: 19th Dec 1913 in England.
I won't put the informant or addresses as they relate to living people.
So doesn't really get me any further. ??
Any more ideas people? Still waiting for the Scotland cert, maybe that will help... reallty don't get why i can't find it!
Rachel
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How reliable do you think the informant/s were? If you can be sure of them, at least it narrows her place of birth down to England.
In fact, if the informants are still living, can you get any more info from them?
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Yeah I think the informant would be the most reliable you could get, but I would feel a bit awkward contacting them I think. I guess her infomation would only be as reliable as what Sheila herself was told!
I remember when I was searching BMDs there was one I discounted. I can't access ancestry to check for definite but I think it was something like:
Joan or Sheila MCDONALD
registered 1913?
Mother's maiden name: Boud
And was somewhere in Essex.
I might order that cert if I get no joy with the Scottish one! Although that really is clutching at straws a bit. I think there was a son registered a couple of years later and as far as I know Sheila didn't have a brother :-\
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Rachel
If the situation becomes desperate (!), here are the BMD references for the McDonald births you mmentioned:
Births 4Q 1913
Orsett Vol. 4a Page 1238
Sheila M McDonald
Mother’s maiden name: Boud
Births 1Q 1915
Orsett Vol. 4a Page 1219
Alexander L McDONALD
Mother’s maiden name: Boud
Orsett is in Essex and the places covered in Orsett Reg. District are shown on the following:
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/orsett.html
I still think it might be worthwhile seeing if there is an obituary for Shelia Joan in the local 'papers for Downham in July/August 1994. Local libraries often hold copies of old newspapers and sometimes they will do a "look-up" if you have a specific date for the event in question.
Ivan
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Hiya Ivan,
Yeah I've contacted the local library and also Norfolk RO. I'm hoping the library are helpful as the RO charges £15 per half hour and I've gone a bit crazy with certificate ordering etc lately!
Also just had a quick look on free bmd (which I totally forgot existed ::)) for a marriage between a Mcdonald and a Boud and couldn't find one - guess they're not complete though?
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Just had a reply back from Norfolk Heritage Centre, they've searched papers for the end of July and nothing. :(
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Rachel
I hope it's the right one!!
I see that the "Recommendations" were signed (or countersigned) by "Monty". As I said an illustrious family!!
Please keep us all posted as to progress.
Ivan
Got it today, isn't the right one. :(
I give up!
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Rachel,
I have found this thread rather late in the day. My interest is in Gilborne, and I have a limited genealogy of the Sixsmiths on my own website.
see http://home.clara.net/daibevan/ons/wc12/wc12_286.htm
DGB